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Cell shading and your opinion
Deathstrike2
Member UncommonPosts: 1,777
I've seen a few games coming out on multiple platforms that use cell shading -- Champions Online for example.
What's your opinion of cell shading graphics?
Comments
look nice but i prefer gfx like ut 3 and airborne
Cell-shading or not, any game which has Bill Roper on board is one to only sign up for after waiting for 3 months and then only buy 1 month at a time.
As professional illustrator/animator , i can tell you one thing:
Champions Online graphic is so bad, i wanted to open a post on their forums about it.
Cell shading is simply awful , only game that ever used cell shading to any remote sucess was Zelda - Wind Walker.
And iven idea of using it , because it reminds comic drawing is wrong. The results are ridicilous and nothing like inking in comics... (just a clue - DC online is designed by one of prominent graphic artists of DC comics..and he didnt go for cell shading)
But than again. Champions Online have generally bad art direction , even their concept art is unusually bad.
Combine this with Bill Roper , the man that thought Hellgate London would work as post apocalyptic RPG withouth any storyline (so they would spare on writters paycheck) ... you are heading towards catastrophy
The cell shading does not bother me....why?
I've had a few good gaming experiences with cell shaded games, the two most memorable would have been....
Jet set radio future ( how can you not love this game? )
Ultimate Spiderman ( Loved this game and so did my 12 year old son, it was a comic book come to life)
Zelda, the wind waker ( what can I say...just an amazing gaming experience)
Cell shading is not bad. As the above poster mentioned, some games look okay. I would choose cell shading for most anime type games. That said I think the cell shading in Champions Online is awful. I normally like superhero games but the look of CO just leaves me cold. I think I'll be giving it miss. Roper and Emmert? There's two reasons to miss it in my book.
Must admit I like cel-shading, have done from when it first appeared in Jet Set Radio, I like the style and look.
I 'll admit I quite like the screenies from Champions Online, they're distinctive and stylish. Not everyone's cup of tea but hardly horrible.
Cell shading depends on the way that it is applied more than any other factor. The technique was used very well in games like Jet Grind Radio, Sly Cooper (yiff in hell furfags), Okami, Wild Arms 3, and Fear Effect. What I've noticed is that cell shading doesn't look very good with high polygon models. You also shouldn't mix cell shading with things like bump mapping or phong shading. Take a look at the characters in Crackdown to get a look at what I'm talking about. Crackdown was still a fun game, but the un-needed cell shading just made it look fugly.
I think cell shaded games can look sharp and pleasing. I wouldn't want all games to be cell shaded. Champions is ok...a superhero based game..some sci-fi maybe...a racing or dogfight style game..perhaps. I definitely prefer it to the anime style..which I appreciated back in the 80's-90's ...but now I am completely burnt out on anime everywhere.
I don't mind cell-shading. Most mmo graphics look like shit anyway. If they went with cellshading they would most likely have more time to work on it then if they went with another stylized form of graphics or realistic.
As professional illustrator/animator , i can tell you one thing:
Champions Online graphic is so bad, i wanted to open a post on their forums about it.
Cell shading is simply awful , only game that ever used cell shading to any remote sucess was Zelda - Wind Walker.
And iven idea of using it , because it reminds comic drawing is wrong. The results are ridicilous and nothing like inking in comics... (just a clue - DC online is designed by one of prominent graphic artists of DC comics..and he didnt go for cell shading)
But than again. Champions Online have generally bad art direction , even their concept art is unusually bad.
Combine this with Bill Roper , the man that thought Hellgate London would work as post apocalyptic RPG withouth any storyline (so they would spare on writters paycheck) ... you are heading towards catastrophy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Sonata
Used Cel-shading. Regarded as being one of the best games graphically (at the time) on Xbox 360.
Cel-shading is good when used properly. Your graphic's engine shouldn't only be capable of cel-shading as should be able to put some decent 3D textures too. Cel-shading is pretty low tech and doesn't require much computational power to produce something that looks fairly high quality. It definitely doesn't belong in certain game styles, but in the case of other styles it fits (anime/manga/comic books). Some cutscenes/cinamatics done in cel-shading in certain games were also praised (such as the Fire Emblem game on the Wii). Also cel-shading on characters and clothing looks far better than it does on floors and walls that's why you probably don't want to design a game that exclusively uses it. Cel-shading is also ridiculously easy to program and can save a lot of time if you plan to use your own engine. I'm not sure though how difficult it would be on the artist's end.
To sum it up my opinion on cel-shading is it's good when used properly within certain genres (Champions Online should be able to use it to great effect, that doesn't mean they will though).
DAMN right. The guy's a complete tool.
As professional illustrator/animator , i can tell you one thing:
Champions Online graphic is so bad, i wanted to open a post on their forums about it.
Cell shading is simply awful , only game that ever used cell shading to any remote sucess was Zelda - Wind Walker.
And iven idea of using it , because it reminds comic drawing is wrong. The results are ridicilous and nothing like inking in comics... (just a clue - DC online is designed by one of prominent graphic artists of DC comics..and he didnt go for cell shading)
But than again. Champions Online have generally bad art direction , even their concept art is unusually bad.
Combine this with Bill Roper , the man that thought Hellgate London would work as post apocalyptic RPG withouth any storyline (so they would spare on writters paycheck) ... you are heading towards catastrophy
As usually, I can only fully agree with you.
I love comics and I am drawing comics myself, but still I loathe this cell shade stuff in Champions. I just dont like it at all. It just looks clumsy and makes the graphics appear outdated to me. I think there would be many ways to make graphics look unique and stylish without using cell shading.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
No problems by me. I haven't checked Champions Online, but I enjoyed how Wind Waker had facial expressions and attention to details that truly enhanced the game to me. It's another option to bring a refreshing change to the gameplay environment, to try something else than say, realist graphics, which might get old.
As professional illustrator/animator , i can tell you one thing:
Champions Online graphic is so bad, i wanted to open a post on their forums about it.
Cell shading is simply awful , only game that ever used cell shading to any remote sucess was Zelda - Wind Walker.
And iven idea of using it , because it reminds comic drawing is wrong. The results are ridicilous and nothing like inking in comics... (just a clue - DC online is designed by one of prominent graphic artists of DC comics..and he didnt go for cell shading)
But than again. Champions Online have generally bad art direction , even their concept art is unusually bad.
Combine this with Bill Roper , the man that thought Hellgate London would work as post apocalyptic RPG withouth any storyline (so they would spare on writters paycheck) ... you are heading towards catastrophy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_Sonata
Used Cel-shading. Regarded as being one of the best games graphically (at the time) on Xbox 360.
Cel-shading is good when used properly. Your graphic's engine shouldn't only be capable of cel-shading as should be able to put some decent 3D textures too. Cel-shading is pretty low tech and doesn't require much computational power to produce something that looks fairly high quality. It definitely doesn't belong in certain game styles, but in the case of other styles it fits (anime/manga/comic books). Some cutscenes/cinamatics done in cel-shading in certain games were also praised (such as the Fire Emblem game on the Wii). Also cel-shading on characters and clothing looks far better than it does on floors and walls that's why you probably don't want to design a game that exclusively uses it. Cel-shading is also ridiculously easy to program and can save a lot of time if you plan to use your own engine. I'm not sure though how difficult it would be on the artist's end.
To sum it up my opinion on cel-shading is it's good when used properly within certain genres (Champions Online should be able to use it to great effect, that doesn't mean they will though).
Very good points...it is an excellent means to deliver decent quality graphics that might still work on computers that are not state of the art. As long as the market does not become over saturated with the style.
anything that allows for more artistic expression is a good thing. But there is a danger here. One reason to go to the less "realistic" graphics as put forward by bioware is that all the realism starts to look the same. But the reverse is true, if everyone goes for the same style, then there is a danger of all the games looking the same still.
http://www.speedtest.net/result/7300033012
Yeah I agree, you have to "get" the artistic expression of it in my opinion.
Okami looked great because it's cel-shading incorporated inky brush stroke lines; so the imagery and gameplay came together around that aesthetic.
Eternal Sonata as someone mentioned was another good one, A still of gameplay could easily come off as a portrait page for some artbook scene.
Champions-Online though? Terrible if you ask me. It comes ff as cel-shading chosen for the wrong reasons; wanting to get away with having to do sophisticated 3D work otherwise and trot around detail under faux artistry.
For Champions Online... They outline the models, that's why it looks weird. Turn it off and it looks like a regular 3d game. I think it looks good without the outline.
Cell-Shading can be beautiful... also... (i'm not sure about the technical stuff... but isn't a more accessible design? Like it would run smoother and on more computers? I think it could be a smart choice for an MMO.
XIII is a bit old today, but the use of Cell Shading was original and expressive, it is not a popular game, but most people who played the game enjoyied.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yTNf3KYspE (remember, the game is a bit old)
Dragon´s Lair (3D) also used cell shading and the result is pretty good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbYwQXCo1QA (old game aswell)
The new Prince of Persia has some cell shading details and the result is also nice.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2aZrasBSuE
I think CellShading need to look original and inspired to be expressive, it doesnt need to be ultra colored, childish or cliche, unfortunately, the art behind Champios online is poor with or without CellShading.
Cell shaded can be really beautiful, when it's done right. unfortunately, it's not always done right.
Here are a few examples of what cell shaded games can look like when done right:
A tool in the right hands can create a masterpiece.
A tool in the wrong hands will create crap.
The great thing with graphics, is you can tell who has the good hands and who should find another career.
I like cell shading. I think it looks great.
And it runs alot smoother on lower end machines.
I like it. Much like other modern graphic effects such as bloom and HDR (and the previous generation's favorite eye candy: lens flares!), it can look really great if the artists do their job well and if the style is appropriate to the game. The result is a bit cartoony or something like comic-book art. I can see how some people don't like this, but it's ok with me. All of the screenshots that were posted in this thread look great, but I'm not so sure that the style fits the Prince of Persia series. I haven't played the newest one yet, but even though the screenshots and videos look great the style is unexpected and maybe a distraction. On the other hand, it makes sense for Champions Online.
Cell shading, when done well, looks good, such as The Legend of Zelda: The Windwaker (even if you thought the game looked too 'kiddy' it still looked quality 'kiddy'). When done poorly, you have Champions Online. Cryptic could tweak the graphics of CO to make it much better, but I hold out litte hope that they will. CO looks worse than CoX.
That said, I'm more interested in how games play rather than how they look (such as the afore mentioned Zelda game, which played much better than it looked). Much like BioWare's Star Wars game, I'm hopefui that CO will be a fun game, in which case my reservations with how it looks will be a small factor on my decision to play the game.
Cel-shading always looked crap and always will. While the newest Prince of Persia had a few graphical moments, it was mostly(only!) the background graphics. The characters look horrible, like something out of a cartoon. I want my computer game graphics to either go for the realistic look, or being highly stylized. I've yet to see a game with good cel-shading. I've seen lots of games with bad cel-shading though. To me cel-shading is the lazy way out and the graphical artists that go for it should be kicked in the nuts, repeatetly, with a steel-tipped boot. What is most important in the games is the playability though but cel-shading is a distraction.
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