Sorry, if THIS isnt clever trolling, the OP should rethink this life. *hand gesture*
Seriously, it has everything: WOW and claims how cool WOW is, why SWTOR wont succeed even when we know so little... its flamebait. Or stupidity. As if we need ANOTHER "oh noes game XYZ is like WOW/is not like WOW" thread. ><
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
You can easily see why this game isnt going to be as popular as WoW just by watching the videos. Look closely, check out the combat. The combat looks limited movement wise and we all know what happens to a good MMO that has slow auto face combat. The WoW players instantly label the game a failure and the combat as inferior to WoWs. Those players Need Fps CS controls, games with good combat mechanics like WAR and AOC have been instantly dismissed due to slower combat. While I look forward to this game if you think this game will come close to WoW or will pull wow players your going to be in for a let down.
Damn typos in the poll sorry!
Now link where Bioware said they are trying to beat wow.
They already said they are doing cinimatic combat, anyone whos played kotor knows that the combat is coreagraphed,
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Oh Boy. Expectations here )). You could cut and paste the posts in this thread with a thread a year ago in War / AoC and you would get a copy warning because "the content already exists". Same laughable numbers of 1 million, 2 million, 3 million. Mark Jacobs (as a game designer) lost his bet to his own staff (26 dollars War had 1 million at the end of 2008 and 2 to 3 million at the end of 2009). It always baffles me how little insight 95% of the people have to even very basic structures. PAYING monthly for ONE game. Need I draw the picture ??? ---- To the guys thinking LORE are an assurance to massive successes in videogames just turn your head and look back at the launches you had to endure. Middle Earth anyone ??? And as a test I asked my son (16.5) if he was interested in SW. His answer was "kid stuff", no one in my school is talking SF. "They talk Prison Break and House" he says. They are no longer the SF generation.
Is this the same son that is a national football player? 16.5 years old? LOL, I thought that only toddlers and children used that kind of numerical value (ex: IM 8 AND A HALF). Right...the .5 really matters.
ANYWHO, I do agree with you for the most part about mythic.
Mark Jacobs, what were you expecting? EQ2, Eve, and WoW have raised the bar on what the quality of mmorpgs should be. If you are not prepared to meet that bar at launch AND surprass it with updates, then you are a waste of time and money.
So.... what will TOR hold for me? I hope NOT another failure like SWG.. I want to experience 99% of the game content requardless of the class and factions I choose without being foreced into PvP or groups.. I'm a parent with a real life that enjoys a lil casual time in the evenings when I can.
You are the definition of the casual gamer. Realize that to accommodate your preferences it forces developers to compromise heavily and leave out game play mechanics that some other folks find very enjoyable, like large challenging PVE raids, hardcore PVP or what must be a horror to most of you, group based game play.
Its a shame there's so darn many of of 'you' and so few of 'us'.
And strangely enough, I'm considered a fairly casual gamer.....I just prefer to make time to join in the more advanced game play when I'm able to than to see it left out of the game completely in order to satisfy gamers like yourself.
Back on topic. I am hoping for a truly new game play experience from SWTOR.
So much B.S being spewed here I almost keeled over from the stench.
If a developer wants to incorporate advanced features, nothing will hold them back. I fail to see how any group of players holds a developer back in anything. If they want a game that forces grouping to advance they can do it. Just don't expect a very succesful game because most people have little inconviences like jobs holding them back. Others like me refuse to play with elitist people who love power tripping, which is the kinds of players your type of game spawns.I refuse to pay hard earned money every month to be forced to play with people I don't like. Hence why forced grouping is being left in the dark ages where it belongs.By the waym, that is NOT an advanced feature.
There is also nothing holding you back from grouping up with others in game. It's usually called "join group."
There is also a nice feature that maybe your not aware of called "Guild". This allows you and othhers like you to form your own little elite group of players and impose whatever type of rules you want. If people don't like grouping with you then maybe you should re-evaluate your attitude towards them. You certainly come off as a snob with that post.
No, it's not going to pull players away from WoW for one reason, Target Audience. You can't make a hardcore gangsta rap fan buy the latest country album just because it's good. Just like how you can't make a Fantasy MMO fan drop his game for a Sci-Fi MMO.
I'm getting tired of everybody comparing games with WoW. Is it better than WoW? Will it pull users away? Will it gain the large amount of users that WoW has? Those questions are impossible to answer because of the difference of opinions.
It MAY explode into huge levels of hype due to Star Wars' already huge fanbase, which is much larger than WoW. It all depends on whether or not the game is fun, intruiging, and plays well in the opinion of many people.
You can easily see why this game isnt going to be as popular as WoW just by watching the videos. Look closely, check out the combat. The combat looks limited movement wise and we all know what happens to a good MMO that has slow auto face combat. The WoW players instantly label the game a failure and the combat as inferior to WoWs. Those players Need Fps CS controls, games with good combat mechanics like WAR and AOC have been instantly dismissed due to slower combat. While I look forward to this game if you think this game will come close to WoW or will pull wow players your going to be in for a let down.
Damn typos in the poll sorry!
First off let me say this. The videos that have come out are not Game play Videos second when was the last time that you saw a WOW game play video from when it first came out? Here is one just to remind you-- if that combat doesn’t look slow then you’re out of your mind.
And who cares if the combat is different or slower. This isn’t Star Wars the WOW version! It needs to be its own game. The problem with the MMO’s that are coming out is they are trying to compare/compete themselves to WOW when they don’t need too. They need to just worry about their fan base—make a good quality game. And if you do that people will come sure it may not be 11million but if you get the right amount to make a profit, and people enjoy playing then you have done your job---companies don’t need to worry about WOW they just need to do their own thing that attracts players whatever that is---mostly be that different type of kid on the block---just like WOW was when it came out.
And it is way too soon to suggest that combat will be slow. And Bioware did say they want fast action combat. When we see a game play video than we will see if your right!
Personally, I think the combat in games could use a little slowing down to allow for it to look more believable. I like seeing characters dodge and weave. I also like there to be an advantage when standing kneeling and prone. You shouldn't have the same accuracy running as you do standing still. etc.
I believe Bioware and Lucasarts really have something this time around to show us all.
They need to really get there hands dirty and this MMO I believe is just to the ticket to do so.
I know WOW has a large fan and user base, Bioware has proven to be one of the best backbones of RPG world ..period! , they really know there stuff and if there track record doesn't say anything, then I don't know what would. These guys are going to be working on, one of the best Franchises out to this day, Star Wars.
Star Wars Galaxies does not even count as a Star Wars title, to me it was an embarrassment to even install the game.
People that enjoy the art style of WOW I think will also enjoy the style of SW: TOR it has a very vivid and colorful style to it and the look of the characters, planets and so on are going to really draw a lot of us in. There is so much story of this Franchise it could fill a decade of stories and adventures to enjoy.
It will probably take awhile for WOW gamers to move aside and play SW:TOR, but I think after the first 3 to 6months this could really stir up the numbers that are playing WOW.
,
Shansen out
Wildstar (2013) & Elder Scroll Online (2013)
Playing: Diablo 3, WOW, Far Cry 3 & X-Com.
Enjoyed: WOW 5 1/2 yrs, LOTRO 3yrs, GW 1/2yr, DFO 1yr, EVE Online 3yrs, and Huxley (Beta).
Failed to impress: GW2 3months, Tera Online 6 months (best combat system in any MMO I've played) STO 1/4yr, Aion 1/2yr, AoC 1yr, CO, Fallen Earth, DDO, EQ2 1/2yr, WAR 1/2yr, Lineage 2 and FF XI 1/2yr, FF XIV.
Sigh... ok for the mental exercise, let's go through a a few points.
1. Something in my gut tells me WOW was a 1-time-miracle that is not going to be repeated. At least not in any time we can conceive. Too many things came together. Warcraft as a known brand, Battlenet-experience from Blizzard, old-gen MMos like EQ had not really grasped ways to make gaming easier; generally more un-typical people coming to gaming in that era, like parents. Many conditions which just are not repeatable. There will be no 2nd WOW but thats just my opinion.
2. Whatever kids say "Star Wars is for kids" doesnt really say anything on how popular a SW MMo can become. Before WOW, Warcraft, being a strategy title, had a much more narrowly defined target audience as well. That says in itself little, either to support or not support SWTOR.
3. There is still no one who has given me any real, final answer why WoW is that successful. Sure, I can think of a lot of reasons generally, but those 11 millions is just a number I have no answer for. WoW really isnt THAT good or THAT innovative, even when I leave personal taste aside. There is just a totally irrational element in this, which again cant be calculated. Such a success cant be predicted or planned.
4. I just dont think any detail in itself is decisive for success, be it coreographed combat or cartoony look or what. SWTOR like WOW has graphics that are "memorable" in the sense that you immediately will connect it to that game, which surely is a good formula (no matter if you like the graphics.)
5. Something that IMVPO opinion has contributed to WOW's success, it is much more "girly" than other MMOs. There is so much typical "girl stuff" in it, like Gnomes with pink hair and all that stuff, it is the classic combination for men and women both playing it, which attracts families, their friends, parents and kids, and thus making a huge appeal based of hearsay and word of mouth. If became a family-entertainment for everyone, a bit like a Disneyland entertainment park. Personally I dont like such things, but I am sure that brought many different people together. In that way SWTOR cant compete. Star Wars just does not appeal a lot to the girly-cuteness factor. (I know, I know, there ARE women who play TF2, but fact just IS, a lot of couples play "male = tank", "female = healer".)
6. Essentially for the entertainment I could care less if SWTOR is 100k, 300k, 1 million or what. How is that connected to me having fun with a MMO? Sure we all have our pride and want to say that our fav MMO has millions of people who like it. Humans just function that way, but it still is no necessity for gameplay fun.
Finally, it is WAAAAY to early to make any realistic speculations on how SWTOR will fare. Seriously, guys.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Pretty sad state of the MMO genre if WoW players decide if a game is good or not. You watched a few videos of an incomplete game and decided it is to be a failure cause the WoW community might not like it. GREAT! I am all for it if the WoW community stays right where it is. Last thing I want to see in any future MMOs is for the game to be dumbed down enouph so the WoW community can play it without thinking.
for this game i am predicting AoC like sells box numbers and as the dust settles 600k+ subs after some months from wow people bored of wow, old republic fans, and Star Wars fans and the other various others that may come. I know ill be there to try it.
WoW's turned-based combat is rather slow and I'd personally like to see SW:TOR being more action-oriented. Though we'll see how it turns out. Looking at the combat videos it seems pretty WoW-ish.
WoW is considered fast paced combat? I mean you can play that game with 1 hand 75% of the time. I think the ultimate testament to WoW combat is the fact that people can multi-box 5 accounts and still dominate. I'll be the first to admit that WoW's combat system is now smooth so there is a standard there. However I don't get how WoW players think their combat is faster than any other MMO out there that has a 1.5s GCD.
Also the best combat system in an MMO that I have found to date is TCoS. Having to set up your abilities in the proper rotations so that there is always an ability up to use or to have a range+melee attack on each bar, setting up combos, etc. Not to mention the FPS for ranged attacks. In PvP it is an absolute blast because it is fast paced, you have to think 2-3 moves ahead(combos, range,etc), and you have to maintain the target. It is much funner than the Tab+Spam buttons while just keeping the target in your LOS. If SWTOR can have something like that, especially with blasters, it would be awesome but I doubt they are going down that route.
All that being said; you're making your judgements off of alpha footage? I mean Bioware already stated they want to make combat fast paced. It isn't going to be like KotOR with long pauses inbetween moves. I'm 100% that SWTOR will have combat as fast as WoW or faster.
IMHO, what the OP is saying is that the wow player base in a sense, makes or break any mass targeted MMORPG. ANd I guess he is correct since every broad audience MMORPG, with the exception of LOTRO, released after WOW failed/bombed. And LOTRO surviveability is due mostly to it's IP.
Now, let's all take out the thin skin outfit and admit that lucas art and bioware aim, with SWTOR, to capture a good number of subs. We aren't talking about Darkfall, Mortal online or , with all respect, EVE here- it is almost heretic to putt EVE near Darkfall, since EVE is a hell of a game. the plan is not to make a niche game.
It is irrelevant if many say "a good community is enough for me" and "I don't want wow players" etc.
All those kind of remarks are naive since both Lucas (george and lucas arts) want a hit. There is a lot of $ to be made and the IP itself deserves a hit. bioware might want a hit also, after all nothing is as good as having considerable success in their first entry on the MMORPG market.
Another important thing to notice is that while Bioware has a considerable fan base, it is unknown how many of those will be willing to accept a P2P game. Even more one that MIGHT not have a standard subscription fee, rather a Micro Transaction system (not saying that will have, just pointing out that might have since EA is aimed at the business model).
I know lots of people that loved Warcraft (the RTS ) but don't play wow since they don't agree with the P2P concept. Same will probably happen with KOTOR fans.
I am not saying that SWTOR needs to have the same subscriptions numbers WOW has, but it certainly is aiming to capture sub numbers equal to about 20% of the ones held by wow presently.
A lot of WoW players think other MMOs are icky. Some have gotten bored with WoW and may be looking for something new, and may also be Star Wars fans, some of those will eventually return to WoW. SO yeah, gain some, lose some as with any MMO.
You can't compare WARs supposed 'failure' to the fact that the combat wasn't just right or that it wasn't fast enough. WARs 'failure' in the eyes of many WoW players is the fact that it offered nothing better at all, you could even argue it offered worse when comparing it to WoW.
It did offer worse, for a game that was suppose to be all about the PvP, the game play was even more dumbed down and slower than WoW is. WoW overall is a really great game, but what it wasn't was a game as competitive as most PvPers would have liked it to be. WAR promised to be this game but turned out to be a game dumbed down for casual PvPers. Unfortunately too dumbed down for even casual PvPers to accept.
Comments
Sorry, if THIS isnt clever trolling, the OP should rethink this life. *hand gesture*
Seriously, it has everything: WOW and claims how cool WOW is, why SWTOR wont succeed even when we know so little... its flamebait. Or stupidity. As if we need ANOTHER "oh noes game XYZ is like WOW/is not like WOW" thread. ><
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I am reserving judgement till I play it.
sounds like a fun concept but we all know a good game is made by what the end product looks like.
played:WoW and Eve off and on 5 years
Tried:CoH/V, PoTBS, War, TR, STO, FE
TOR is likely to rock
Now link where Bioware said they are trying to beat wow.
They already said they are doing cinimatic combat, anyone whos played kotor knows that the combat is coreagraphed,
Quotations Those Who make peaceful resolutions impossible, make violent resolutions inevitable. John F. Kennedy
Life... is the shit that happens while you wait for moments that never come - Lester Freeman
Lie to no one. If there 's somebody close to you, you'll ruin it with a lie. If they're a stranger, who the fuck are they you gotta lie to them? - Willy Nelson
Is this the same son that is a national football player? 16.5 years old? LOL, I thought that only toddlers and children used that kind of numerical value (ex: IM 8 AND A HALF). Right...the .5 really matters.
ANYWHO, I do agree with you for the most part about mythic.
Mark Jacobs, what were you expecting? EQ2, Eve, and WoW have raised the bar on what the quality of mmorpgs should be. If you are not prepared to meet that bar at launch AND surprass it with updates, then you are a waste of time and money.
Edited.
Unbelievable topic!
Can't say I really want this game to draw most of the WoW crowd, so it certainly wouldn't bother me if it didn't.
"Sorry guys but this game wont grab WoW players like they want"
Don't apologise, be relieved.
You are the definition of the casual gamer. Realize that to accommodate your preferences it forces developers to compromise heavily and leave out game play mechanics that some other folks find very enjoyable, like large challenging PVE raids, hardcore PVP or what must be a horror to most of you, group based game play.
Its a shame there's so darn many of of 'you' and so few of 'us'.
And strangely enough, I'm considered a fairly casual gamer.....I just prefer to make time to join in the more advanced game play when I'm able to than to see it left out of the game completely in order to satisfy gamers like yourself.
Back on topic. I am hoping for a truly new game play experience from SWTOR.
So much B.S being spewed here I almost keeled over from the stench.
If a developer wants to incorporate advanced features, nothing will hold them back. I fail to see how any group of players holds a developer back in anything. If they want a game that forces grouping to advance they can do it. Just don't expect a very succesful game because most people have little inconviences like jobs holding them back. Others like me refuse to play with elitist people who love power tripping, which is the kinds of players your type of game spawns.I refuse to pay hard earned money every month to be forced to play with people I don't like. Hence why forced grouping is being left in the dark ages where it belongs.By the waym, that is NOT an advanced feature.
There is also nothing holding you back from grouping up with others in game. It's usually called "join group."
There is also a nice feature that maybe your not aware of called "Guild". This allows you and othhers like you to form your own little elite group of players and impose whatever type of rules you want. If people don't like grouping with you then maybe you should re-evaluate your attitude towards them. You certainly come off as a snob with that post.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
No, it's not going to pull players away from WoW for one reason, Target Audience. You can't make a hardcore gangsta rap fan buy the latest country album just because it's good. Just like how you can't make a Fantasy MMO fan drop his game for a Sci-Fi MMO.
I'm getting tired of everybody comparing games with WoW. Is it better than WoW? Will it pull users away? Will it gain the large amount of users that WoW has? Those questions are impossible to answer because of the difference of opinions.
It MAY explode into huge levels of hype due to Star Wars' already huge fanbase, which is much larger than WoW. It all depends on whether or not the game is fun, intruiging, and plays well in the opinion of many people.
First off let me say this. The videos that have come out are not Game play Videos second when was the last time that you saw a WOW game play video from when it first came out? Here is one just to remind you-- if that combat doesn’t look slow then you’re out of your mind.
www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/worldofwarcraft/video/6097610/world-of-warcraft-gameplay-movie-2
And who cares if the combat is different or slower. This isn’t Star Wars the WOW version! It needs to be its own game. The problem with the MMO’s that are coming out is they are trying to compare/compete themselves to WOW when they don’t need too. They need to just worry about their fan base—make a good quality game. And if you do that people will come sure it may not be 11million but if you get the right amount to make a profit, and people enjoy playing then you have done your job---companies don’t need to worry about WOW they just need to do their own thing that attracts players whatever that is---mostly be that different type of kid on the block---just like WOW was when it came out.
And it is way too soon to suggest that combat will be slow. And Bioware did say they want fast action combat. When we see a game play video than we will see if your right!
Personally, I think the combat in games could use a little slowing down to allow for it to look more believable. I like seeing characters dodge and weave. I also like there to be an advantage when standing kneeling and prone. You shouldn't have the same accuracy running as you do standing still. etc.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
I believe Bioware and Lucasarts really have something this time around to show us all.
They need to really get there hands dirty and this MMO I believe is just to the ticket to do so.
I know WOW has a large fan and user base, Bioware has proven to be one of the best backbones of RPG world ..period! , they really know there stuff and if there track record doesn't say anything, then I don't know what would. These guys are going to be working on, one of the best Franchises out to this day, Star Wars.
Star Wars Galaxies does not even count as a Star Wars title, to me it was an embarrassment to even install the game.
People that enjoy the art style of WOW I think will also enjoy the style of SW: TOR it has a very vivid and colorful style to it and the look of the characters, planets and so on are going to really draw a lot of us in. There is so much story of this Franchise it could fill a decade of stories and adventures to enjoy.
It will probably take awhile for WOW gamers to move aside and play SW:TOR, but I think after the first 3 to 6months this could really stir up the numbers that are playing WOW.
,
Shansen out
Wildstar (2013) & Elder Scroll Online (2013)
Playing: Diablo 3, WOW, Far Cry 3 & X-Com.
Enjoyed: WOW 5 1/2 yrs, LOTRO 3yrs, GW 1/2yr, DFO 1yr, EVE Online 3yrs, and Huxley (Beta).
Failed to impress: GW2 3months, Tera Online 6 months (best combat system in any MMO I've played) STO 1/4yr, Aion 1/2yr, AoC 1yr, CO, Fallen Earth, DDO, EQ2 1/2yr, WAR 1/2yr, Lineage 2 and FF XI 1/2yr, FF XIV.
Sigh... ok for the mental exercise, let's go through a a few points.
1. Something in my gut tells me WOW was a 1-time-miracle that is not going to be repeated. At least not in any time we can conceive. Too many things came together. Warcraft as a known brand, Battlenet-experience from Blizzard, old-gen MMos like EQ had not really grasped ways to make gaming easier; generally more un-typical people coming to gaming in that era, like parents. Many conditions which just are not repeatable. There will be no 2nd WOW but thats just my opinion.
2. Whatever kids say "Star Wars is for kids" doesnt really say anything on how popular a SW MMo can become. Before WOW, Warcraft, being a strategy title, had a much more narrowly defined target audience as well. That says in itself little, either to support or not support SWTOR.
3. There is still no one who has given me any real, final answer why WoW is that successful. Sure, I can think of a lot of reasons generally, but those 11 millions is just a number I have no answer for. WoW really isnt THAT good or THAT innovative, even when I leave personal taste aside. There is just a totally irrational element in this, which again cant be calculated. Such a success cant be predicted or planned.
4. I just dont think any detail in itself is decisive for success, be it coreographed combat or cartoony look or what. SWTOR like WOW has graphics that are "memorable" in the sense that you immediately will connect it to that game, which surely is a good formula (no matter if you like the graphics.)
5. Something that IMVPO opinion has contributed to WOW's success, it is much more "girly" than other MMOs. There is so much typical "girl stuff" in it, like Gnomes with pink hair and all that stuff, it is the classic combination for men and women both playing it, which attracts families, their friends, parents and kids, and thus making a huge appeal based of hearsay and word of mouth. If became a family-entertainment for everyone, a bit like a Disneyland entertainment park. Personally I dont like such things, but I am sure that brought many different people together. In that way SWTOR cant compete. Star Wars just does not appeal a lot to the girly-cuteness factor. (I know, I know, there ARE women who play TF2, but fact just IS, a lot of couples play "male = tank", "female = healer".)
6. Essentially for the entertainment I could care less if SWTOR is 100k, 300k, 1 million or what. How is that connected to me having fun with a MMO? Sure we all have our pride and want to say that our fav MMO has millions of people who like it. Humans just function that way, but it still is no necessity for gameplay fun.
Finally, it is WAAAAY to early to make any realistic speculations on how SWTOR will fare. Seriously, guys.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Pretty sad state of the MMO genre if WoW players decide if a game is good or not. You watched a few videos of an incomplete game and decided it is to be a failure cause the WoW community might not like it. GREAT! I am all for it if the WoW community stays right where it is. Last thing I want to see in any future MMOs is for the game to be dumbed down enouph so the WoW community can play it without thinking.
for this game i am predicting AoC like sells box numbers and as the dust settles 600k+ subs after some months from wow people bored of wow, old republic fans, and Star Wars fans and the other various others that may come. I know ill be there to try it.
i don't care how many subs this or any game has as long as i like it and the server i am on is not dead.
WoW's turned-based combat is rather slow and I'd personally like to see SW:TOR being more action-oriented. Though we'll see how it turns out. Looking at the combat videos it seems pretty WoW-ish.
Good, I don't want WoW players in it. I just want diehard Star Wars fans in it.
WoW is considered fast paced combat? I mean you can play that game with 1 hand 75% of the time. I think the ultimate testament to WoW combat is the fact that people can multi-box 5 accounts and still dominate. I'll be the first to admit that WoW's combat system is now smooth so there is a standard there. However I don't get how WoW players think their combat is faster than any other MMO out there that has a 1.5s GCD.
Also the best combat system in an MMO that I have found to date is TCoS. Having to set up your abilities in the proper rotations so that there is always an ability up to use or to have a range+melee attack on each bar, setting up combos, etc. Not to mention the FPS for ranged attacks. In PvP it is an absolute blast because it is fast paced, you have to think 2-3 moves ahead(combos, range,etc), and you have to maintain the target. It is much funner than the Tab+Spam buttons while just keeping the target in your LOS. If SWTOR can have something like that, especially with blasters, it would be awesome but I doubt they are going down that route.
All that being said; you're making your judgements off of alpha footage? I mean Bioware already stated they want to make combat fast paced. It isn't going to be like KotOR with long pauses inbetween moves. I'm 100% that SWTOR will have combat as fast as WoW or faster.
IMHO, what the OP is saying is that the wow player base in a sense, makes or break any mass targeted MMORPG. ANd I guess he is correct since every broad audience MMORPG, with the exception of LOTRO, released after WOW failed/bombed. And LOTRO surviveability is due mostly to it's IP.
Now, let's all take out the thin skin outfit and admit that lucas art and bioware aim, with SWTOR, to capture a good number of subs. We aren't talking about Darkfall, Mortal online or , with all respect, EVE here- it is almost heretic to putt EVE near Darkfall, since EVE is a hell of a game. the plan is not to make a niche game.
It is irrelevant if many say "a good community is enough for me" and "I don't want wow players" etc.
All those kind of remarks are naive since both Lucas (george and lucas arts) want a hit. There is a lot of $ to be made and the IP itself deserves a hit. bioware might want a hit also, after all nothing is as good as having considerable success in their first entry on the MMORPG market.
Another important thing to notice is that while Bioware has a considerable fan base, it is unknown how many of those will be willing to accept a P2P game. Even more one that MIGHT not have a standard subscription fee, rather a Micro Transaction system (not saying that will have, just pointing out that might have since EA is aimed at the business model).
I know lots of people that loved Warcraft (the RTS ) but don't play wow since they don't agree with the P2P concept. Same will probably happen with KOTOR fans.
I am not saying that SWTOR needs to have the same subscriptions numbers WOW has, but it certainly is aiming to capture sub numbers equal to about 20% of the ones held by wow presently.
A lot of WoW players think other MMOs are icky. Some have gotten bored with WoW and may be looking for something new, and may also be Star Wars fans, some of those will eventually return to WoW. SO yeah, gain some, lose some as with any MMO.
It did offer worse, for a game that was suppose to be all about the PvP, the game play was even more dumbed down and slower than WoW is. WoW overall is a really great game, but what it wasn't was a game as competitive as most PvPers would have liked it to be. WAR promised to be this game but turned out to be a game dumbed down for casual PvPers. Unfortunately too dumbed down for even casual PvPers to accept.