I honestly don't think there are 'underappreciated games'. The two games that really brought the genre to life get most of the credit (and rightly so).. they are UO and EQ. DAOC also is up there because of RvR.
Actually, your post is a testament to the fact that there clearly are underappreciated games that contributed to MMORPG development. For instance, as you would probably argue yourself and ,in fact, you essentially just did, that WoW borrowed significantly from EQ(and others, but just using your example). But, as much as you can argue WoW borrowed from EQ, you can also argue EQ borrowed from meridian. It's even more ironic in that you think DAOC is "up there" because of RvR, when Meridian had "RvR" in their faction system which EQ later copied into a race-based system on Tallon/vallon Zek. And if it's entirely a popularity contest, then why give UO/EQ any credit at all? They aren't/weren't even a fraction as popular as WoW.
I think one could say if you take that current market WoW has... than almost every previous MMO is underappreciated. Simply due to the fact that the majority of people playing WoW never played any other MMO. At least no western MMO. The north american subscriber base alone is supposedly around 2 million subscribers and what do most western MMO's have for a world wide subsriber base?
I quoted this because I think the reply to the person who was previously quoted is quite odd.
1) Most people seem to agree that the market started to go "main stream" when UO and EQ1 hit the market. This mostly has to do with the fact that UO was the first MMO to hit 100,000 subscribers. However, the massive success of EQ1 was what drove many companies to pursue the online market. Just as today WoW is what drives many companies into taking the chance of the online market.
2) M59 was more like UO than EQ. M59 used a classless sytem with no levels as a basic description. EQ in fact was more like multi player Wizardry online. The faction system on the pvp server was as you say.. but EQ isn't well known for its pvp servers other than they weren't popular in comparison to the pve servers.
3) DAoC was and still is known for its RvR. What set DAoC apart was the Keep sieges and relic system that M59 never had.
4) Your WoW coment isn't even logical. If you want to pretend you could launch WoW in 1997 with the tech of the time and the market size of the time we could make a comparison. No game was going to have 11 million subscribers in 1997 oddly enough... So how exactly do you think you are going to compare these in some logical manner? EQ1 dominated the western market that existed at the time. In movies they do make adjustments for inflation and changes in ticket prices etc to compare movies from different times. The issue here is that the market size for MMO's is much larger now (and even in 2004 when WoW launched) than it was in 1996 (m59), 1997(uo) or 1999(eq).
Just from my perspective it seemed to come across that you felt insulted that they didn't mention M59 as being the begging of the MMO world. Personally I hated EQ1.. and loved UO.. but I don't think UO could really be considered the start. At its peak it was basicly half the size of EQ1s player base. While that may confuse you .. as you seem to think this is a popularity contest.
Size of player base is important due to cost of development etc... Companies need to believe they can make a profit on the cost of development. Which if the subscriber bases hadn't been increasing in size as they were... wouldn't have been the case.
No one's mentioned The Realm? I remember when I first heard about it in my Sierra Magazine I used to get (yup, they used to send out a magazine detailing all their games).
The game had instancing. Every Dungeon was player specific. Even out on the open field you had your own fights that were represented to other players as a brawling duststorm (like fights in Looney Toons).
The game had enhancing which was known as Enchanting. Every sword and armor could be enhanced with additional properties. Only elf wizards that had max int could become the best at Enchanting and they were pretty hard to level cause they had very little HPs.
The game had player housing. Each player had their own house that was located in one of the towns. You could decorate the outside as well as the inside anyway you wanted using any item in the game. Some people were very creative with how they decorated it. You could choose whether you wanted to let people inside or just let them have access to the outside. It was also instanced, but you could type in any player's name and look at their house.
There were some other cool things about the game that I haven't really seen since then. It had a max level of 1000 and you got different colored sashes when you hit a certain level. Players would wear them with pride or some would wear lower level ones and hope to get jumped. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it was open PvP and you could be Pick Pocketed anywhere. I'm sure I'm missing some things and maybe got some of it wrong, since it's been 11 years since I played it.
Anarchy online had, for its time, the most amazing and creative character customization in MMORPG history. It set the bar much higher than any game previous to it. AO created an incredible instance system whereby you could customize almost everything about the mission you are going to take, from making it nightmarishly difficult to so easy a toddler could complete it. Further, the mission itself would be entirely randomly created, giving essentially limitless replayability, at least in theory.. Linking items in chat. Ya, linking items in chat!!! That was a huge nicety long overdue in the MMORPG world. They were also the fiirst to have "flying mounts" and various vehicles you could drive/fly. The sci-fi+MMORPG was itself unique and fresh.
I agree AO brought alot of innovation to the mmorpgs
but it was also the worst launch Ive personally experienced
game was unplayable the 1st month, for many people
in general, a game launch is the only chance you get to win a growing playerbase
maybe it's not underappreciated... but I'm going to say Lineage 2. The biggest single leap in graphics I've seen... without rediculous system requirements.... amazing and beautiful soundtrack and ambient sound....... and it was a seamless world!!! Totally free expansions too.
Sure the game had a lot wrong with it.... namely bots, crappy group mechanics, boring to play healers that wound up becoming standard to 2box.... and totally lame mob pathing etc. The mobs totally failed to be part of the environment.
But I think it was the biggest improvement in MMO's I've seen in one single leap..... at least until WoW.
Grymm MMO addict in recovery! EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH, Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
Wow, the realm is old school. And it's still going.
Back when MMOs were called graphical muds. I bet most people here don't even know what a mud is.
hehe most MMO players might not, but I'd say most of the folks on this site probably do. I never did play one though... I didnt get internet until 1999.... and a short time later I was playing EQ.
Grymm MMO addict in recovery! EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH, Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
I think one could say if you take that current market WoW has... than almost every previous MMO is underappreciated. Simply due to the fact that the majority of people playing WoW never played any other MMO. At least no western MMO. The north american subscriber base alone is supposedly around 2 million subscribers and what do most western MMO's have for a world wide subsriber base?
You need to go back and read what is meant by underappreciated. Further, where do you get your data that says most WoW players never played any other MMOs? Though I quit WoW almost entirely 2 years ago or so, that was not the case at all at the time.
Originally posted by Antarious
I quoted this because I think the reply to the person who was previously quoted is quite odd.
1) Most people seem to agree that the market started to go "main stream" when UO and EQ1 hit the market. This mostly has to do with the fact that UO was the first MMO to hit 100,000 subscribers. However, the massive success of EQ1 was what drove many companies to pursue the online market. Just as today WoW is what drives many companies into taking the chance of the online market.
Again, just inventing "facts" and stating them as such is no way to make a persuasive argument. UO and EQ were never mainstream. Hell, I grew up in a college town: the town is 40% college kids and has three major universities, all over 15,000 students, yet never once did I come across someone who even played UO or EQ. In fact, I'd say MMORPGs weren't even mainstream until a year+ after WoW had been out. Mainstream means mostly everyone that plays computer games has a working idea what MMORPGs are about and I just don't think that happened until after WoW was released, and claiming EQ or UO "started it" is ridiculous, because you could just as easily put meridian in with those two.
Originally posted by Antarious
2) M59 was more like UO than EQ. M59 used a classless sytem with no levels as a basic description. EQ in fact was more like multi player Wizardry online. The faction system on the pvp server was as you say.. but EQ isn't well known for its pvp servers other than they weren't popular in comparison to the pve servers.
3) DAoC was and still is known for its RvR. What set DAoC apart was the Keep sieges and relic system that M59 never had.
But the the relic/keep system is not something that came into common useage by later MMORPGs. I'm not even sure what your point was in "2)".
Originally posted by Antarious
4) Your WoW coment isn't even logical. If you want to pretend you could launch WoW in 1997 with the tech of the time and the market size of the time we could make a comparison. No game was going to have 11 million subscribers in 1997 oddly enough... So how exactly do you think you are going to compare these in some logical manner? EQ1 dominated the western market that existed at the time. In movies they do make adjustments for inflation and changes in ticket prices etc to compare movies from different times. The issue here is that the market size for MMO's is much larger now (and even in 2004 when WoW launched) than it was in 1996 (m59), 1997(uo) or 1999(eq).
Just from my perspective it seemed to come across that you felt insulted that they didn't mention M59 as being the begging of the MMO world. Personally I hated EQ1.. and loved UO.. but I don't think UO could really be considered the start. At its peak it was basicly half the size of EQ1s player base. While that may confuse you .. as you seem to think this is a popularity contest.
Size of player base is important due to cost of development etc... Companies need to believe they can make a profit on the cost of development. Which if the subscriber bases hadn't been increasing in size as they were... wouldn't have been the case.
LOL. Your sarcasm meter = broken. This entire section is wrong-headed. Garbage in in, garbage out. You need to go back and read that comment again.
The time I played MUDs, they were all text-based. So much of the modern MMO industry started in those volunteer, text-based efforts. I have yet to come across an MMO that was evolved as the old MUDs oddly enough. The closest is EvE but then EvE is only one step from being a MUD in some ways. It certainly has a lot of the original ethos... not just in how CCP works as a company but also the fact that you got one server for everyone, the risk vs reward (the old MUDs were *hard*) and the fact that the players essentially make the game. However, EvE is not underappreciated, it's doing very well and has a great reputation overall.
I didn't categorize CoH/CoV as an underrated game because it is appreciated overall in the MMO genre. It probably should be a bit more popular than it is, but unfortunately for me I never could get into it. I always found it boring after a point because it was too samey from one instance to the next. The hazard zones were the funnest part of the game in my opinion. It is also the only game I ever played where 8 hours of a task force as a rad/rad defender made me feel motion sick
I would categorize DAoC as underappreciated in some ways. It certainly doesn't have the player population I think it merits, but its overall reputation is decent having been tarnished only by ToA. Why do I say DAoC? It is the most well-rounded fantasy MMO and was the first one geared for the more casual player. By today's industry standards, classic DAoC was not easy, but in comparison to EQ, AO and UO, it was . UO was easy to skill up at first, though when EA purchased it, the rate of skill gains was decreased to make it more of a timesink to get to grand master level, but what made UO less casual is the risk factor associated with the PK system. In DAoC, you didn't have that. Instead, it was the first MMO to emphasize large-scale battles without any real risk involved other than realmpride. At first, players were really into it and defended their realms or avidly went after relics. I think that for a game that doesn't involve risk, the old days of DAoC were unique because from my experience, the lack of risk means that players don't get that sense of loyalty and almost like personal affront if an enemy player attacks their faction. I haven't felt the adrenaline pumping in a riskless PvP setting like I did in DAoC. I don't know what caused it because the last time I played DAoC I didn't feel it, but by then realm pride was dead. By the time Catacombs was released, DAoC had the most options for people in a 3d fantasy setting: RvR, smaller skirmishes in PvP, epic PvE with lots of raiding, personal dungeons, open dungeons, exploration and hunting in lots of areas in many different settings. The spellcrafting system was also a great idea for the original inception of the game that didn't have a raid element to it.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.
Comments
Kingdom of Loathing, maybe?
Actually, your post is a testament to the fact that there clearly are underappreciated games that contributed to MMORPG development. For instance, as you would probably argue yourself and ,in fact, you essentially just did, that WoW borrowed significantly from EQ(and others, but just using your example). But, as much as you can argue WoW borrowed from EQ, you can also argue EQ borrowed from meridian. It's even more ironic in that you think DAOC is "up there" because of RvR, when Meridian had "RvR" in their faction system which EQ later copied into a race-based system on Tallon/vallon Zek. And if it's entirely a popularity contest, then why give UO/EQ any credit at all? They aren't/weren't even a fraction as popular as WoW.
I think one could say if you take that current market WoW has... than almost every previous MMO is underappreciated. Simply due to the fact that the majority of people playing WoW never played any other MMO. At least no western MMO. The north american subscriber base alone is supposedly around 2 million subscribers and what do most western MMO's have for a world wide subsriber base?
I quoted this because I think the reply to the person who was previously quoted is quite odd.
1) Most people seem to agree that the market started to go "main stream" when UO and EQ1 hit the market. This mostly has to do with the fact that UO was the first MMO to hit 100,000 subscribers. However, the massive success of EQ1 was what drove many companies to pursue the online market. Just as today WoW is what drives many companies into taking the chance of the online market.
2) M59 was more like UO than EQ. M59 used a classless sytem with no levels as a basic description. EQ in fact was more like multi player Wizardry online. The faction system on the pvp server was as you say.. but EQ isn't well known for its pvp servers other than they weren't popular in comparison to the pve servers.
3) DAoC was and still is known for its RvR. What set DAoC apart was the Keep sieges and relic system that M59 never had.
4) Your WoW coment isn't even logical. If you want to pretend you could launch WoW in 1997 with the tech of the time and the market size of the time we could make a comparison. No game was going to have 11 million subscribers in 1997 oddly enough... So how exactly do you think you are going to compare these in some logical manner? EQ1 dominated the western market that existed at the time. In movies they do make adjustments for inflation and changes in ticket prices etc to compare movies from different times. The issue here is that the market size for MMO's is much larger now (and even in 2004 when WoW launched) than it was in 1996 (m59), 1997(uo) or 1999(eq).
Just from my perspective it seemed to come across that you felt insulted that they didn't mention M59 as being the begging of the MMO world. Personally I hated EQ1.. and loved UO.. but I don't think UO could really be considered the start. At its peak it was basicly half the size of EQ1s player base. While that may confuse you .. as you seem to think this is a popularity contest.
Size of player base is important due to cost of development etc... Companies need to believe they can make a profit on the cost of development. Which if the subscriber bases hadn't been increasing in size as they were... wouldn't have been the case.
No one's mentioned The Realm? I remember when I first heard about it in my Sierra Magazine I used to get (yup, they used to send out a magazine detailing all their games).
The game had instancing. Every Dungeon was player specific. Even out on the open field you had your own fights that were represented to other players as a brawling duststorm (like fights in Looney Toons).
The game had enhancing which was known as Enchanting. Every sword and armor could be enhanced with additional properties. Only elf wizards that had max int could become the best at Enchanting and they were pretty hard to level cause they had very little HPs.
The game had player housing. Each player had their own house that was located in one of the towns. You could decorate the outside as well as the inside anyway you wanted using any item in the game. Some people were very creative with how they decorated it. You could choose whether you wanted to let people inside or just let them have access to the outside. It was also instanced, but you could type in any player's name and look at their house.
There were some other cool things about the game that I haven't really seen since then. It had a max level of 1000 and you got different colored sashes when you hit a certain level. Players would wear them with pride or some would wear lower level ones and hope to get jumped. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that it was open PvP and you could be Pick Pocketed anywhere. I'm sure I'm missing some things and maybe got some of it wrong, since it's been 11 years since I played it.
I agree AO brought alot of innovation to the mmorpgs
but it was also the worst launch Ive personally experienced
game was unplayable the 1st month, for many people
in general, a game launch is the only chance you get to win a growing playerbase
takes more than innovation to succeed
EQ2 fan sites
Wow, the realm is old school. And it's still going.
Back when MMOs were called graphical muds. I bet most people here don't even know what a mud is.
Maple sTory bitches xD
edit: I'm kidding.
maybe it's not underappreciated... but I'm going to say Lineage 2. The biggest single leap in graphics I've seen... without rediculous system requirements.... amazing and beautiful soundtrack and ambient sound....... and it was a seamless world!!! Totally free expansions too.
Sure the game had a lot wrong with it.... namely bots, crappy group mechanics, boring to play healers that wound up becoming standard to 2box.... and totally lame mob pathing etc. The mobs totally failed to be part of the environment.
But I think it was the biggest improvement in MMO's I've seen in one single leap..... at least until WoW.
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
Wow, the realm is old school. And it's still going.
Back when MMOs were called graphical muds. I bet most people here don't even know what a mud is.
hehe most MMO players might not, but I'd say most of the folks on this site probably do. I never did play one though... I didnt get internet until 1999.... and a short time later I was playing EQ.
Grymm
MMO addict in recovery!
EQ,SWG preCU,L2,EQ2,GW,CoH/CoV,V:SOH,
Aion,AoC,TR,WAR,EVE,BP,RIFT,WoW and others... no more!
Wow OP, if you don't want people to contribute to your threads, don't start them.
Jenny!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqUPApCUt90
Actually read the OP and you won't have to worry about me hurting your little internet feelings.
You need to go back and read what is meant by underappreciated. Further, where do you get your data that says most WoW players never played any other MMOs? Though I quit WoW almost entirely 2 years ago or so, that was not the case at all at the time.
Again, just inventing "facts" and stating them as such is no way to make a persuasive argument. UO and EQ were never mainstream. Hell, I grew up in a college town: the town is 40% college kids and has three major universities, all over 15,000 students, yet never once did I come across someone who even played UO or EQ. In fact, I'd say MMORPGs weren't even mainstream until a year+ after WoW had been out. Mainstream means mostly everyone that plays computer games has a working idea what MMORPGs are about and I just don't think that happened until after WoW was released, and claiming EQ or UO "started it" is ridiculous, because you could just as easily put meridian in with those two.
But the the relic/keep system is not something that came into common useage by later MMORPGs. I'm not even sure what your point was in "2)".
LOL. Your sarcasm meter = broken. This entire section is wrong-headed. Garbage in in, garbage out. You need to go back and read that comment again.
Helbreath
The time I played MUDs, they were all text-based. So much of the modern MMO industry started in those volunteer, text-based efforts. I have yet to come across an MMO that was evolved as the old MUDs oddly enough. The closest is EvE but then EvE is only one step from being a MUD in some ways. It certainly has a lot of the original ethos... not just in how CCP works as a company but also the fact that you got one server for everyone, the risk vs reward (the old MUDs were *hard*) and the fact that the players essentially make the game. However, EvE is not underappreciated, it's doing very well and has a great reputation overall.
I didn't categorize CoH/CoV as an underrated game because it is appreciated overall in the MMO genre. It probably should be a bit more popular than it is, but unfortunately for me I never could get into it. I always found it boring after a point because it was too samey from one instance to the next. The hazard zones were the funnest part of the game in my opinion. It is also the only game I ever played where 8 hours of a task force as a rad/rad defender made me feel motion sick
I would categorize DAoC as underappreciated in some ways. It certainly doesn't have the player population I think it merits, but its overall reputation is decent having been tarnished only by ToA. Why do I say DAoC? It is the most well-rounded fantasy MMO and was the first one geared for the more casual player. By today's industry standards, classic DAoC was not easy, but in comparison to EQ, AO and UO, it was . UO was easy to skill up at first, though when EA purchased it, the rate of skill gains was decreased to make it more of a timesink to get to grand master level, but what made UO less casual is the risk factor associated with the PK system. In DAoC, you didn't have that. Instead, it was the first MMO to emphasize large-scale battles without any real risk involved other than realmpride. At first, players were really into it and defended their realms or avidly went after relics. I think that for a game that doesn't involve risk, the old days of DAoC were unique because from my experience, the lack of risk means that players don't get that sense of loyalty and almost like personal affront if an enemy player attacks their faction. I haven't felt the adrenaline pumping in a riskless PvP setting like I did in DAoC. I don't know what caused it because the last time I played DAoC I didn't feel it, but by then realm pride was dead. By the time Catacombs was released, DAoC had the most options for people in a 3d fantasy setting: RvR, smaller skirmishes in PvP, epic PvE with lots of raiding, personal dungeons, open dungeons, exploration and hunting in lots of areas in many different settings. The spellcrafting system was also a great idea for the original inception of the game that didn't have a raid element to it.
Back in EvE. Started with BatMUD. Main MMOs have been EvE and DAoC.