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Do you agree that AI in games nowadays is not as good as it should be?
ProperLogic
Member Posts: 31
Personally, I think the AI in games nowadays need a lot of work. Do you think so? And how important is the AI in a game?
Comments
Are we talking mmorpg or normal games? If mmorpg....the AI hasn't advanced in 10 years, if we are talking singleplayer games it seems kinda good, could be better I guess but what to do
AI can always be better. Pathing is usually the biggest problem. Unfortunately it appears that AI gets less $$$ than graphics when developing a MMO.
Yeah, it does seem like more $ goes into graphics than the AI. I think AI is more important than graphics though.
MMOs or Singleplayer games? I think the AI in single player games is pretty good, but I don't think there is any AI in MMOs? JK
But anyway, I think I could write the AI for almost every mob in MMOs these days...
if(player.distance() < 50)
{
attack();
}
and done.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
Single player game = a handfull of creatures that need AI at any one point = very advanced AI possible for the system to handle.
MMO = thousands to even tens of thousands or creatures that need to run AI processes every second = advanced AI will bring the system to its knees and kill the game.
I believe we'll observe some advancement in this area quite soon.
Online worlds today are certainly still lacking means for a rich interactivity.
This does include ability to persistently change the game world, by a wide range of interaction possibilities - physics, user and procedural content, emergent game mechanics, responsive and adaptive npc behaviour (aka AI), you name it.
It's harder and harder to compete in today's MMO market, so companies will eventually be urged to try filling this room for an improvement.
Ah, good point.
What about chained mobs? I personally would rather kill a horde of slightly easier mobs who attack together, with a few "elite" harder mobs thrown in that might only bring two or three of the weaker mobs with 'em. Gives you the "RAAAAAAA SPARTAN WARRIOR!" feeling to cut your way through tons of mobs, while still offering a challenge in the form of the more difficult ones. Not counting raid bosses, etc.
Maybe it's just me lol.
That largely depends on implementation. Don't forget, that all this logic happens on the server, so it's not really dependant on your machine's power.
And technology on the "server" side advances with the insane speed - both in hardware and software areas.
The problem is, every dev is all about graphics, but i personally believe graphics have plateud, I think that games need to focus on beefing up the ai, no more proximity aggro, They should work on Making Ai more intereactive and realistic and list on refining the same features we are already used to and for the most part already expect to be in game.
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Ditto. Graphics can only "wow" you for so long, then it's not that amazing any more. When it comes to single player games, AI has never been good enough for me. I'm always looking for mods that improve on the AI. I remember when I used to play Oblivion, I ended up spending more time looking for mods that improved the AI then actually playing the game itself. Heh..
MMO's aren't as bad, because you can always play against other players and that's always challenging (well usually!).
Graphics wise personally there's no need for it to be top notch. But combat animations! That must be real smooth and have different swing or action with different spells...
When i play War i nearly collaspe because of the stupidity of the mobs, most of the time there's no chain aggro and its so boring.... Might as well just die when i walk over to it...
Think we will need a good few more years before we can see mobs that's intelligent, that only comes out in certain time,seasons, that travels throughout the land etc...
RIP Orc Choppa
Most MMO gamers don't want a smart mob. Smart mobs means having to use some tactics instead sitting inone spot, pulling mobs one at a time from a static spawn. For a player just interested in levelling to cap, an intelligent mob is a hindrance to their efforts.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
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That largely depends on implementation. Don't forget, that all this logic happens on the server, so it's not really dependant on your machine's power.
And technology on the "server" side advances with the insane speed - both in hardware and software areas.
I'm not saying it has anything to do with the user machine. I'm saying I don't think you realize how much computing power a complex AI uses. Then multiply that usage by 10000 or more and the server, not your personal machine, dies.
Abnd that is why none of the mmo is able to complete with WoW. Because they dont dare to bring out something new. they thought coming out with a WOW clone will bring in some decent players sub. But look how wrong ther are...
If the Dev for new games dont wake up, they are just gona push more and more players to WoW and its next mmo...
RIP Orc Choppa
Though it's technically not a true MMO, but 5 player party action-rpg w/ fps control/combat system, Hellgate had some interesting AI. (still waiting for a re-launch... QQing "sniff sniff").
Ravagers: Dog-like demons that would run and hop around you in circles. They don't attack head-on but would sneakily run to your sides, and flank, and pound on you from behind.
Zombies: Okay these guys are stupid, but for zombies it makes too much sense. Their patterns were if they see you, they basically, and in zombie-like fashion, slowly and/or sometimes rapdidly rush the players directly.
Leviathan Fiends: Purple flying dragon-like enemies that when in the sky, they like to sweep down from your sides, to flank attack your party, the fiends would cleverly fly in a criss-cross patterns on your group, vommitting this purple goo that would devestate a party.
Fire-breathing Dragons (sorry I forgot their actual names): They are particularly annoying, their fireballs are slow, and easily avoided, but what was devious about them was if you aimed at them, they actually would back away and fly far away, while another one would lock on to you and shoot you, and when you put your cross-hairs on that one, the other one would return and fly towards you quickly for another shot (just immagine 5-8 of those in the air at one time.. fun times).
There are more mobs to list but I just listed those rather quickly (I'm not writing War and Peace here lol).
In most games, yes, the AI should be smarter than it is. Some manage to have some success by getting away from the usual tank/healer/damage dealer idiocy, though.
Ah but WAR is possibly one of the worst mmos when it comes to AI. In fact its one of the worst mmos I have played period lol. There are others that do it much better.
I am playing Spellborn at the moment for example and the mobs in that are much more intelligent, especially the humanoid ones. They work as a team, sending their frontline fighters to attack you that use specific attacks in an attempt to root you to the spot. Meanwhile their archers and spellcasters will hold back and attack you from a distance, or rush in and fight you up close when the main fighters go down. They also start to dodge more and fight defencively when they are close to death. Archers are particularly bothersome because they will constantly run away and try and keep a distance between you in just the same way that a player would.
Of course just like in any game you get used to the pattern that the mobs follow.....and after a while you cease to even notice them as you chop your way through them all like a hot knife through butter. Many players like the false satisfaction of easy kills but I personally find that it cheapens the whole experience. Thats why I think these mmos should focus more on implementing decent PvP into their games (not the shit we have been seeing so far) with meaning and purpose to it. This is the internet afterall so we shouldnt be relying so heavily on fighting computer controlled opponents. The whole approach to mmo game design is totally backwards and devs need to stop focusing on single player game design. Npcs should be used to support the players actions. So for example players should be able to lead and direct small (or large!) groups of npcs at a particular target. Now THAT would make an interesting mmo that I would be more than happy to play.
If mobs were really smart, players wouldn't have a chance. Every critter in a zone would just gather together in a giant army of wolves, killer bunnies, spiders, and the undead and march into the nearest town, wipe out all the NPCs and anything else that gets in the way so you can't rez or buy anything. The players would be wiped out in a world thats impossibe to advance in because the mobs dont want to die. The problem with all of this is mobs in MMOs are SUPPOSED to die. Every fight shouldn't be a tedious affair. If it is people won't play. I do agree that playing WAR made for a pretty boring experience because the AI was so pathetically stupid.
WOW has it about right. Social mobs are social. Stupid mobs are stupid and everything attacks everything else.
AI is limited by the sheer number of calculations that have to occur at one time. It has to simplified just so the server doesn't crash...when it comes to MMOs.
In single player games, esspecially FPSs, the AI has gotten better. Tracking and flanking is very noticable now in the better ones.
Ah but WAR is possibly one of the worst mmos when it comes to AI. In fact its one of the worst mmos I have played period lol. There are others that do it much better.
I am playing Spellborn at the moment for example and the mobs in that are much more intelligent, especially the humanoid ones. They work as a team, sending their frontline fighters to attack you that use specific attacks in an attempt to root you to the spot. Meanwhile their archers and spellcasters will hold back and attack you from a distance, or rush in and fight you up close when the main fighters go down. They also start to dodge more and fight defencively when they are close to death. Archers are particularly bothersome because they will constantly run away and try and keep a distance between you in just the same way that a player would.
Of course just like in any game you get used to the pattern that the mobs follow.....and after a while you cease to even notice them as you chop your way through them all like a hot knife through butter. Many players like the false satisfaction of easy kills but I personally find that it cheapens the whole experience. Thats why I think these mmos should focus more on implementing decent PvP into their games (not the shit we have been seeing so far) with meaning and purpose to it. This is the internet afterall so we shouldnt be relying so heavily on fighting computer controlled opponents. The whole approach to mmo game design is totally backwards and devs need to stop focusing on single player game design. Npcs should be used to support the players actions. So for example players should be able to lead and direct small (or large!) groups of npcs at a particular target. Now THAT would make an interesting mmo that I would be more than happy to play.
I played War for a while, and found the AI a bit too similar in patterns for all the mobs. It's like they took Hellgates zombie mob patterens and applied it to all their mobs.
Also, and a bit off topic, but what really got my mad at War was my summoner/mage dude. Forgot his damn class name but he would float on a disk. Anyways, I really hated the AI and the immobility of the creature I would summon. It was basically a gun turret w/ ghosty skinn. Considering Hellgates summoner could summon up 10 minions at once (sometimes more dependent on weapons/armor equiped), and the minion AI prottected the summoner like they were supposed to, I have to say War was very disappointing.
I mean MMO's should be better than say something like Hellgate's AI. (and it's really sad that Hellgate's not a true MMO to begin with).
I think it would really depend on what ya wanted the AI to do. I had a chatterbot/alicebot I wanted to get into a MUD and online at the same time some years back..wasn't really gearing it to combat tho'. Thought that it would be neat as more of a source of info for key words, storyyline, hints..
I've seen some AI in a few MUDs where ya might not know that ya were interacting with a mob instead of a human. I like moral and self preservation being an issue and alot of those were preprogrammed to an extent. It's possible to make AI remember the stats of those who attack it and make it prejudice against the ones who attack it most (males, fighters..),
Seen a few bad games that don't automatically broadcast someone's character name, but instead use their physical traits and features..and the AI who get attacked by someone they are not introduced to, that have the same physical traits as your character would just as soon attack your character if persuing them.
AI is vast..or at least it should be, hehe.
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That largely depends on implementation. Don't forget, that all this logic happens on the server, so it's not really dependant on your machine's power.
And technology on the "server" side advances with the insane speed - both in hardware and software areas.
I'm not saying it has anything to do with the user machine. I'm saying I don't think you realize how much computing power a complex AI uses. Then multiply that usage by 10000 or more and the server, not your personal machine, dies.
That's a bit simplified vision of things.
You see, the notion of server is abstract. It's not necessary a single computer/processor doing the computations. For example, it can be a cluster of computers processing parts of the same world and synchronizing their view of this world in real time through some voodoo magic tech.
Sure, it's hard to implement, but it's not that impossible.
Also, I humbly insist that I actually do realize the basics of how a "complex" AI of novadays MMOs works, and what part of computation can become a bottleneck when trying to scale.
My point is, that all that boils down not to an inherent complexity of the computations needed to maintain an impression of "smart" AI, but rather to the way the software is made.
So, it's rather a people factor, not a hardware one.
I think you kind of hit the nail on the head there......at least with regards to todays mmos anyway. Mobs in mmos are really nothing more than walking bags of exp whose only purpose is to "feed" each individual players growth. They are there to be killed......and easily too because most gamers have a low level of patience and tolerance. If they get beaten too often they will give up and migrate to a game where it is easier to experience that false sense of achievement and victory. This means less customers for a game and less money for the games company. In other words the more intelligent a game is, the less people will play it.
I think this is a very sad state of affairs as there are plenty of ways to design a game that could handle clever AI. You gave an example above of how every creature in a zone would team up to defeat the players. This isnt neccessarily true.......not if the creatures were programmed with "realistic" AI.......because in that case undead wouldnt team up with wolves, giant spiders wouldnt side with killer bunnies and so on. They would be more focused on holding onto their territories.....and expanding when certain conditions had been met. Certain sentient creatures however might form alliances with others if they felt threatened but this would be entirely situational and if the AI was good then these creatures would be able to react accordingly. It doesnt mean that all the mobs would hunt down all the players because they wouldnt be able to differentiate between a player and another mob which might also be a threat to it.
The same would apply to the players too, who could ally themselves with other suitable player factions or even some of the mobs in an area. This is something that never seems to happen in mmos, where players can become friendly and allied to certain npc creatures while other players might remain as enemies to those creatures. It could lead to some pretty interesting conflicts with (for example) the player controlled Orc race attempting to lead the nearby npc goblin tribes against the player controlled Dwarf nation.......who in turn have managed to gain allies from from some stone elementals they encountered.
With decent AI it would be possible for once for players to have a genuine choice over how they want to roleplay their character as they woudlnt have to kill everything in sight simply because the game says they must. They could attempt to befriend those npc creatures instead......although not always of course. Those shambling undead probably wont pay much attention to your attempts at diplomacy. Neither will a hungry pack of wolves.......although they might if the right kind of player attempted it. Equally those undead might be susceptible to the manipulations of a group of powerful necromancer players. The potential for almost endless variety in an open gameworld like this would be immense........then again the potential for massive errors would also be pretty high too......so who knows.
On top of that remove damned experience levels and give players other incentives for playing a game such as.....oh I dont know.......because its fun and involving perhaps? Because its a ROLEPLAYING game where people can come online to PLAY the ROLE of a particular character. Its a shocking thought I know lol
Then you'd have forcded group for the most part and in essence no game at all, because no one is going to play a game where you're forced to team up just to advance. Also, it IS fun destroying critters. It is NOT fun being wasted by them constantly unless you form a group to take them on like old EQ or DAOC. You see FUN can be had both ways. Thats what dungeons and elite style areas are for. They offer alternatives. If you want better AI thats designed to kick your butt, you go someplace that is designed to be challenging. If you just want to casually advance at your own pace, you go kill some bunnies;) Forcing everything to be so dangerous that you have to have friends around at all times is not always fun.
Besides, too much smart AI just leads to more world problems and of course all the feasiblity, balance problems and so forth that goes into having mobs killing eachother off on their own or doing their own thing. Its simply not worth the risk for a reward of an extremely unpredictible mob system that most players in the end really don't want. You don't make games according to "wouldn't it be cool". You make games accoriding to "will it work or won't it." Ryzome apprently has some decent mob AI and you know what...its 100X more boring. Then again, in most cases these smart mobs didn't seem any smarter than those in WOW that are scripted to be smart or stupid. Thats all AI is. A series of scripts. Its never really intelligence=)
I'll admit WAR has taken bad AI to a new low. Thats not a direction we need to go. The PvE was trully boring in that game. But something like WOW wasn't as stupified. There was good variety and plenty of challenge to be had if you chose to pursue it.