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How do you define "grind"?
Master_Razor
Member Posts: 226
This is a word that gets tossed around a lot here and I don't think it's entirely clear what people mean when they say it. From what I've read the two most popular definitions of this word are:
A mindless repetitive task.
and
A tiresome, boring repetitve task.
So is something a grind just because it's repetitive, or does it have to feel like drudgery to really be a "grind"? If it's the former, it means that grinding is a common part of MMOs that we're never going to see disolve away completely. If it's the latter, then the term grind is subjective, and only certain parts of certain games will be considered grinds to certain people.
When I think of the word grind I think of a mundane, boring, repetitive task that feels more like work than playing a game. I don't mind if something is repetitive, in fact every once in a while I seek out something that is mindless so I can just relax and veg out for a while. But I don't like a game to feel like work.
So what do you think?
Comments
Eve
Anything repetitve in a game you don't want to do. One man's grind is another's content.
A grind is always a repetitive task, but not all repetetive tasks are grinds. To me a grind has to have 2 things:
1. You feel like you are doing the same thing over and over again even if it is not really the same thing.
2. You don't like doing it.
What some consider a grind, others consider fun. It's all in the eye of the beholder.
Grinding is doing something repetitive for the sake of leveling that you wouldn't seriously consider doing if it didn't level you. There are three major components there.
1. It has to be repetitive.
2. It has to be something you don't like.
3. It has to make your character stronger--whether higher level, better gear, or some other system of advancement.
The way I would define "grind" is anything that has to do with leveling up or skilling up your character. So basically thats EVERYTHING that you do. The only way I would see it not being a grind is just role playing, talk to people, have stories to tell, etc etc. Because its not a grind since you're not advancing your character.
Do you mean to say that having fun is a grind when it makes your character stronger as well? I just can't call anything I enjoy a grind because to me the word is a negative.
I agree with the mindless repetative task. For me, its anything repetative that I dislike doing or prevents me from doing something else I want to do
Torrential: DAOC (Pendragon)
Awned: World of Warcraft (Lothar)
Torren: Warhammer Online (Praag)
I feel that "grinding" differs from enjoyable repetitive activities in one way: it is so tedious and pointless that it's difficult to relate it to your character/the game/the game world. Essentially, "grinding" = an activity that makes me feel like a person manipulating keys for rather inconsequential rewards. It disconnects me from my character.
I'm human, that's a sprite, I manipulate it and make it do things..... and this game SUCKS!!! ... That is grinding.
Grinding is a character/stat building activity that it is anti-immersive. It takes you out of the gaming world, it makes you feel like you're doing whatever you're doing because the programmers meant this to be a long hard road to travel before you meet your goal. It reminds you that you are playing a game, not experiencing a new world/adventure/skill set/etc.
Still.... there are many, many repetitive activities that are enjoyable. Of course, it depends on the player and that's why this is a difficult question to answer.
Specific repetitive activities for some people are fun, casual, and fit their ideas about their character and what their character's place in the game world is. For others, the same activity is an insult to their uber gaming skillz....
Take fishing for example. I love it. Couple it with cooking, and a white mage job class... it made sense to me. I easily saw my taru whm as a wandering tribal priest... a monk skilled in culinary arts who can both heal you, feed you, then fish you up some dinner. As I fished (never botted), I imagined it as a meditative conversation with nature...
Drops from mobs used in recipes meant something to me.... and I loved xping against undead, eating my own wares (and passing out juices and whatnot to party members), and feeling like I was helping to release those poor tortured unholy souls from this world into the next. All in all, the grind that was fishing/cooking/whm was all about becoming a more "capable" priest... a healer who nourishes body, mind, spirits... etc., etc. ::gags:: ... So, it felt like no grind at all.
Still, as many of us would agree, fishing is one of the most "grindy" of skills/crafts to level/pursue (well, most of the time). As always, it depends on what the player is willing to forgive. After all, Lu Shang's rod about drove me off my rocker... or did it?
I define grind the way the dictionary does : "to work or study laboriously"
Grinding isn't fun. It is a word with a negative meaning to it. Unfortunately the flagellates of EQ adopted it and it has since travelled on to where you will have people actually make statements now such as "All MMOs have to have a grind."
No. Hell no.
If it's a grind, stop doing it. That means it sucks. Why pay a monthly fee to do something that you think SUCKS? But people do.
Tossing a frisbee back and forth with friends is fun for many people. And... hey, check this concept out....
When they get tired of tossing the frisbee back and forth they stop tossing it and go do something else. BUT.... what if the big 12 floating over your head turns into a big 13 if you toss it back and forth 400 more times?
Well, that's when people need to ask themselves if they find it fun to keep going or if they are simply going through the motions of frisbee just to change that number. If the former then it isn't a frikken grind. If the latter, then .... well... you keep doing mindless irritating crap and paying a monthly fee to do it, and the devs will gladly continue to shovel that easy to create crap out for you.
Yeah, the grind thing irks me. Either it's fun or it isn't. The minute a person starts to call what he's doing as a leisure activity "a grind" and doesn't immediately stop paying for it, let alone stop doing it, then there's psychological issues at hand and little can be done on a message board to save them.
Exactly. If someone's having a blast beating the crap out of bears for two hours, it isn't a grind. If someone is grumbling and not enjoying the exercise, then that guy is grinding during his leisure/entertainment time and paying to do so.
I could not conceive of ever doing that, but millions of gamers grind in MMOs.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
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Different people view grind in different ways. Some say repetetive tasks = grind. A lot of games try to mask the grind of leveling their characters by adding quests and such, so it doesn't feel like a grind. When I think of grind, I think of work. If I have to work to enjoy a game, it's not a game I want to play.
the gameplay in 2moons is nothing but a grind. find a mob, run around mob till you get 5-10 or more then unleash AOE spells/skills and repeat till lvl... then do for next lvl. thats how i define grind
I think "grind" is most commonly associated with leveling.
Killing enemies by the dozens hour after hour for the sole purpose of gaining experience points. The reason for this "grind" is because the MMO offers few if any other options for leveling.
If I have to kill thousands of mobs to gain 1 level, thats a grind.
If the act of killing these thousands is not fun, thats a grind.
If the only way to gain that 1 level is grinding, thats a grind.
This is good, I would add a 4th though.
4. You have nothing better to do in-game at the time.
I enjoy the grind, so I would say a "repetetive action required for advancement" because it doesnt necisarrily mean leveling your char's level, but could also mean skills, crafting, etc.
Do you mean to say that having fun is a grind when it makes your character stronger as well? I just can't call anything I enjoy a grind because to me the word is a negative.
Even if you're having fun while you level up/skill up its still grinding, you're doing repetitive stuff over and over. The fun will stop once you have gone through enough. Yes its still a grind because you're trying to advance your character whether you have fun or not you are still doing repetitive tasks.
All games have grinding. Some people love it, some people hate it. Some people find one aspect of a game to be grinding to them and others do not. Vise versa, those who dont think its grinding find something else to be grinding.
Find the game that is the most enjoyable for you and has the least amount of grinding based on your input. Do that and your golden. Everything else does not matter.
Playing: WoW,
Played: Aion, AoC, Eve, EQ, EQ2, LOTRO, Runescape, Guild Wars, DAoC, Planetside, SWG, WAR, Darkfall
Wanting to try: DCU Online
Waiting For: Star Wars The Old Republic, Guild Wars 2.
unFun repetitive actions.
that is right, repetitive action that are fun cannot be considered grind, so grind is different for everyone.
__________________________________
Remember the good old days when devs made games just for the sake of making a great game?
They are forever gone now all they care is about how much they can earn from them, if they can't make millions they won't make that game.
REMEMBER THE OLD DAYS AND REGRET THEY HAVE PASSED.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I would say: Doing the same thing over and over.
It is usually boring at best.
If you enjoy it, then it's not a grind. The word you were looking for was "leveling."
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Someone on this site has a signature that goes something like: "There is no such thing as grinding, it's only in the eye of the beholder."
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. - Carl Sagan
To me grinding is....
....doing the same things over and over again while in the back of your mind you know you might be doing the same thing for a long time(upcoming expansions, packs, etc.) Feels like a job and theres no future change ahead. Feels like you are zoned out, stuck in a loop, over and over again. Annoyance and some anxiety just trying to log into the game.
Don't be terrorized! You're more likely to die of a car accident, drowning, fire, or murder! More people die every year from prescription drugs than terrorism LOL!
If you enjoy it, then it's not a grind. The word you were looking for was "leveling."
No, because the repetitive action itself is boring. I dont mind that part, it's what you do while you are talking on Ventrilo about the game, your dog, how your friend got dunk and threw up in your shoe.... whatever. The grind is the glue that holds a community together. lol
Yay a use for my sig.
I agree with most of the comments in this thread. A boring/laborious repetitive task.. So 1 part is factual repetitive, the 2nd part is subjective so all games may or may not have grind depending on your point of view.
Venge Sunsoar
Edit: Doh forgot I changed my sig. Anyway the old one said, "Grind does not exist it is entirely your perception."
If you enjoy it, then it's not a grind. The word you were looking for was "leveling."
See I think if you enjoy it, then the word to describe it would probably be "masochism."
I say that because a grind would be there to waste time and cause pain to the player. Grinds can be hidden well under great gameplay, but most of the time it is obvious that you are forced to do something just to waste time. One of the best examples of grind in my mind are trying to gain reputation or honor in World of Warcraft. I will admit that in the case of trying to get reputation you are most likely going to do it through questing, and that does allow for some variety. There are also reputations grinds though that do not have enough quests, and then you are forced to just collect things and keep returning them to try and get honor. Don't know what could be a better description of a grind then that.
Life if full of repetition and grinds, it's not just limited to games. You wake up in the morning and go to work for the day... thats a grind. It's not the same as going out into the virtual wilderness to kill 30 bears for their claws (just to collect 5 claws), but going to work each day is still a repetitive action and grind. Now I have to rethink my use of the word masochism, because some people really do have jobs they enjoy greatly.