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A growing concern.
nolf
Member UncommonPosts: 869
So the AE Mission Architect system has been in for a couple of weeks, and it had been a wild ride so far. I am going to preface my concern with my praise.
The Mission Architect is a truly revolutionary step in MMO gaming. Giving players the power to create their own content (within the confines of the game) is really where I'd love to see games going. I have made missions, run a LOT of player created missions, and crashed like the dickens a bunch of times trying to go into AE missions (probably 1 in 6 or 7 attempts to enters ends in crash & verify).
The user created missions range from dreadful to hilarious. A favorite moment of mine thus far has been going to apprehend a new "villain" who's powers were threatening those around her. This villain turns out to be an 8 year old girl, sobbing "Why are you doing this?!" the whole time you're whomping on her. After a several mission build-up to this villain, it was pretty funny for her to end up to be a little kid you have to squash.
Other missions are complete just enough to pass the "errors" prompt in the Architect. Things are lazily named, and no thought whatsoever put into the mission or it's story or it's MOBs.
The actual control of customization in the missions you are given is impressive, and gaining tickets to unlock different things for the Architect is a good way to go. It keeps people wanting to play for the tickets.
But this leads me to a growing concern I have had since day 1. This may not make sense to everyone, but the AE has SWG's holocron fiasco written ALL over it. I have found that since the release of the Mission Architect, normal gaming on even the most populated servers had been MAJORLY disrupted. The majority of the population is pulled into this sink-hole that takes them out of the rest of the game. If you thought it was difficult to get a good team together before, get a load of it now. Most people seem to be creating their own missions, and trying to get groups to run it with them, and the whole mission they say things like "Isn't the XP great in here?!" "Man easy kills for all this XP!" and "Man this is so much better than the other AE's I've done!" UM, NO!
Let's get real, only a small percentage of the players are truly capable of making missions interesting, fun and balanced enough to truly enjoy. The rest are more like being subjected to an uncomfortable experiment. Don't get me wrong, experiments can be fun but not at the cost of disrupting the rest of the game.
Farming was out of control to begin with, seeming to make it nearly impossible to get from 40 to 50 with a group-dependent toon, anymore. Now that everyone is out to make their own farm, where does the fun go?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to crap all over this. As I said, this is a MAJOR step forward in the developement of this beloved genre, and a welcomed one at that. I am just wondering if anyone has been feeling like I have, like the majority of the game is being abandoned by the player base. Much like I felt when everyone started grinding for Holocrons like zombies in SWG (which was really the beginning of the end of the golden age of that game). I love the spirit behind the AE, and I love being given the opportunity to create and play in others' creations. I'm just afraid the rest of the game is going to turn into a ghost town based on what I've seen the last couple of weeks.
Maybe it will blow over once the newness of the AE wears off, but a major shift like this in the way a community plays a game is a big red flag for me when I'm an already contented player.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Comments
Well this wont stop your concerns, but CoH is not the first MMORPG to attempt something like this. I do not remember the name of that game(someone might) but I did play it for a bit. The release of the editer was last attempt at getting some playerbase back and a few months later the game died.
The red text says it all. I don't consider an utterly failed attempt to count towards having done this before, especially if it is the last-ditch effort of an MMO in its death-throes to keep alive. This is the reason I still consider the MA to be a "first" step forward, as in CoX, this is certainly not the case. This game while far from perfect is thriving, and the MA while far from perfect was launched with great success.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Ryzom did player generated content, but it was already going bankrupt before Ryzom Ring released. It release Ryzom ring then went out of business a couple months later. Ryzom Ring was the only bright spot in that process and had mostly lukewarm reviews.
However Ryzom is/was a vastly different game than CoH and Ryzom Ring did not work the same at MA.
... Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to crap all over this. As I said, this is a MAJOR step forward in the developement of this beloved genre, and a welcomed one at that. I am just wondering if anyone has been feeling like I have, like the majority of the game is being abandoned by the player base. Much like I felt when everyone started grinding for Holocrons like zombies in SWG (which was really the beginning of the end of the golden age of that game). I love the spirit behind the AE, and I love being given the opportunity to create and play in others' creations. I'm just afraid the rest of the game is going to turn into a ghost town based on what I've seen the last couple of weeks.
Maybe it will blow over once the newness of the AE wears off, but a major shift like this in the way a community plays a game is a big red flag for me when I'm an already contented player.
I don't have any hard numbers for ya nolf, but I can safely say that CoH is -and has been- loosing subscribers. I had noticed it before I ceased play in July '08, and I see no reason why players would have stopped leaving the game since then.
Now if your familiar with the "life-cycle" of products, you can say that this is normal and maybe even expected. But I believe that this abandonment by players is being amplified by the constant mismanagement of the game.
For example. My main reason for leaving CoH was the absolute disregard for the PvP portion of the game by the management team. It seemed that the PvP was showing little improvement with each new issue and nothing fresh was being added. Compound this with the fact that several bugs were going unfixed.
In the months leading up to July, I had been noticeing more and more the absense of well known players. I came to find out later that these players had cancelled their subscriptions. I decided that this was a good idea, maybe until a few new Issues had been released to address my reasons for leaving. I had planned on returning to the game. Then Issue 13 came out and, figuratively speaking, took an elephant shit on the part of the game I enjoyed most.
nolf, you sound real bumbed-out in your post so I'll end this reply on a positve note. Champions Online is in the final stages of completion and gaining momentum for release. I've heard this game reffered to as "City of Heroes 2" on several occasions now. Maybe your time to leave CoH1 has come.
I love the whole, "I can't prove it, but the game is losing subscribers" thing. Yes the game did lose the "hardcore" pvpers around I13 and I admit that players are leaving the game. But, even though people are quitting playing there are also more people joining up. You wanna make a claim you gotta back it up.
Not really, empirical evidence can serve as a point of discussion, even in the absence of hard data.
Since game companies are generally cagy about honestly reporting sub numbers there's really no better way than to go by player perceptions, stats reported by XFire etc.
It seems the game is still doing fine, but with regards to the OP, I can see where these player created instances could pull people out of the main game, which is why I'm against anything like this.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
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Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
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I just resubbed after a couple months off. I have yet to try MA...and iam still finding the normal mission groups. That said...CoX main draw is its character customization, skill diversity, and RP ( for me atleast). I never looked at this game as an explorers game but rather a creative game that you use to constantly make hereos and villians. I am gonna try the MA later today and iam hoping it fits that mold of heavy customazation.
playing: Dragon Age
Waiting: for FF14, Mass Effect
Want to try: Fallen Earth
I have to agree with everything you said,
I did make a post about this before...so instead of copy pasting...I'll just linky
www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/231754
I'm not really all that bummed out, just stating a concern that has been growing since the release of I14. This game may be losing subscribers, I don't know. Based on playing on the servers prior to I14, this game is FAR from dead. The recent insurgence of players since I14 also shows that this game is far from "done." This game doesn't cater to, and never really intended to cater to the PvP crowd, or any hardcorers for that matter. This is simple game, and has and will remain as such.
No game caters to everyone, and once a game has been out for this long, it inevitably loses players to newer games, especially disenfranchised folks who see that their vision for the game isn't going to be met. Your reply really has nothing to do with my post, only another chance to come and chime in about doom'n'gloom and plug another game.
Thanks for the reply, but it has very little to do with this discussion seeing as you haven't played this game since before I13.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
The main problem is that a lot of players feel that the population is down because they don't see very many people. Most websites also go in and see how many people show up in a search and then report that as the population for said server. Though that may sound like a good way to gauge population, CoH is mostly an instance game. So anytime you do that search about 80% of the population won't show up. Because they are PLAYING the game. Things like Xfire depend on you having the program downloaded to keep track of what you are playing and I bet the majority of players don't use Xfire. In my almost 4 years playing only two people I teamed with regularly used xfire. Me and those people were never counted by xfire.
The reason everyone is playing the MA is because it is new. Believe it or not there are not more people farming. If you go to PI the farmers are pretty much gone. They all went to MA. Give it a month for the shiney to wear off and you should see more people playing the original content. You also might look into joining a Super Group and that will help you find people to play with. I would suggest my SG, but we are not very big right now, just a few people so far.
Huh? COX has an in-game search function ( possibly the best search function in any mmo to date ) that tells you the exact number of players...on the current given server, the only way to be exempted from that server search is to put yourself on hide ( invisible to everyone)...which not many do.
So there is only one real way to get a good idea of the population and that is to be a player...
Using Xfire and things like that our useless for figuring out a games population.....I've seen people on these boards time and time again saying certain games are just "FAIL" because the Xfire numbers say so! and I laugh every time
Huh? COX has an in-game search function ( possibly the best search function in any mmo to date ) that tells you the exact number of players...on the current given server, the only way to be exempted from that server search is to put yourself on hide ( invisible to everyone)...which not many do.
So there is only one real way to get a good idea of the population and that is to be a player...
Using Xfire and things like that our useless for figuring out a games population.....I've seen people on these boards time and time again saying certain games are just "FAIL" because the Xfire numbers say so! and I laugh every time
Actually people will not show up in the search function if they are in a mission. Missions in CoH are instances and search only shows the people on the zone map you do the search for, not the ones on a mission map.
Huh? COX has an in-game search function ( possibly the best search function in any mmo to date ) that tells you the exact number of players...on the current given server, the only way to be exempted from that server search is to put yourself on hide ( invisible to everyone)...which not many do.
So there is only one real way to get a good idea of the population and that is to be a player...
Using Xfire and things like that our useless for figuring out a games population.....I've seen people on these boards time and time again saying certain games are just "FAIL" because the Xfire numbers say so! and I laugh every time
Actually people will not show up in the search function if they are in a mission. Missions in CoH are instances and search only shows the people on the zone map you do the search for, not the ones on a mission map.
That's untrue there has been many a time where I've been in a mission and had a tell from someone either looking for a team or asking to join the team. Like for instance 10 minutes ago...
Edited: Here's even more proof that the search function in COX takes into account players on mission maps.
i151.photobucket.com/albums/s149/jinxit_2007/screenshot_2009-04-21-22-26-31.jpg
Huh? COX has an in-game search function ( possibly the best search function in any mmo to date ) that tells you the exact number of players...on the current given server, the only way to be exempted from that server search is to put yourself on hide ( invisible to everyone)...which not many do.
So there is only one real way to get a good idea of the population and that is to be a player...
Using Xfire and things like that our useless for figuring out a games population.....I've seen people on these boards time and time again saying certain games are just "FAIL" because the Xfire numbers say so! and I laugh every time
Actually people will not show up in the search function if they are in a mission. Missions in CoH are instances and search only shows the people on the zone map you do the search for, not the ones on a mission map.
That is not correct. They will show up as "On Mission Map" or "Supergroup Base" depending on the kind of mission they are on in the "find" window. It only excludes those people if you CHOOSE to limit yourself to a zone, in which case, why wouldn't it? You just told it to only search that zone?
The find function, if used properly, will NOT hide mission goers from you.
Not that it matters much anymore, considering the fact that no one really seems to do anything except AE farms anymore.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Looked into it again and yes it shows the people in missions as long as you don't specify a zone. You are right on this one.
As for AE farms though, give it a couple more weeks, people will get tired of it soon and start to run more of the regular content. I also was online playing tonight and saw three different TFs looking for players. so there are still people doing nonAE things, you just have to know where to find them.
The point isn't NO ONE is doing anything but AE, but that the vast majority of the player base is. "You have to know where to look" coming from someone who didn't understand one of the most fundamental functions of the player search is laughable at best.
Unless you're in a group over level 30 at this point, you are more likely to be grouped up with Trial folks who don't even know how to answer the question "What's your AT?" than you are to be grouped with people you want to run more than 1 mission with.
The point is that the gameplay outside of AE farms has been SEVERELY disrupted by all of this, and that is a serious problem for the game. You say the newness will wear off. AE farming will be the new way to level, since people generally go for the easiest route possible. The newness of that will NOT wear off. Veterans of the game will be looking to PL their alts, leaving the rest of the game to be enjoyed by debt-trap groups full of trial-weekers. Farming just went from a growing problem to the way most play the game. That kind of change doesn't wear off, I fear.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
I liked the AE for the first few days, created a couple arcs and got good play and feedback on them, then it all went downhill from there, people wanted farmable maps (got a couple complaints saying there weren't enough mobs or bosses).
Over the past 2 weeks, the game's community (at least on Freedom & Virtue) has completely changed- it went from paper/radio and level based arcs to just AE farms in every zone the AE is in. Everytime I login or zone I see "AE farm forming" and "LF AE farm", I don't see anymore "LFT" and I've only managed to get into one non-AE team (and most of the other members felt they're sick of the MA as well as I am). There is a rule against creating missions designed to be farm (it's mentioned somewhere in the issue 14 patch notes and rules of conduct) and they often get deleted though most of the creators put it back up.
To those who thinks the rest of the game is farming (like paper/radio) doesn't understand what farming is in a game, farming is taking advantage of a specific mission for the maximum amount of xp/money/ticket/merits, etc and resetting or repeating it. At least with paper/radios you run all over the zone fighting different mobs.
At least they fixed the perma-46 crap, that alone was putting a slight impact on the game's economy.
Have fun in Champions Online. I hear it doesn't have ANY PvP at all.
I cancelled my account this week to CoX. It is getting to the point where peoples' "Find" messages are "AE Farm Only." It has been weeks since the disruption started, and it is only getting worse.
I can count on one hand the amount of groups I've found that I wanted to stay with for more than 1 mission since the release of the Mission Architect. A great idea, but practically speaking, it has killed a very enjoyable game for me, my wife, my brother, and anyone I happened to group with that wasn't on trial.
It was a lot of fun over the years, CoX, but now its on to the next, I guess.
I really hope that *insert game name here* will be the first game to ever live up to all of its pre-release promises, maintain a manageable hype level and have a clean release. Just don't expect me to hold my breath.
Talk about extreme over-exageration. I play on freedom and there don't seem to be that many more people farming.
Bye.
Hmm, maybe you should be able to rank the player created missions? Then you could see what other players though about them before agreeing to do them, and also how many runs that done them?
The idea in itself aint bad but there must be restrictions or the whole game will fall apart.
Not really, empirical evidence can serve as a point of discussion, even in the absence of hard data.
Since game companies are generally cagy about honestly reporting sub numbers there's really no better way than to go by player perceptions, stats reported by XFire etc.
It seems the game is still doing fine, but with regards to the OP, I can see where these player created instances could pull people out of the main game, which is why I'm against anything like this.
well, if you go by mmochart.com, i believe it's showing coh around 130-140k subs.
plus, as far as the pvp thing, i'm not keeping up with all the pvp changes; because, quite honestly, pvp tacked on a couple of years after a game was created - is going to be shyte. period. HOWEVER, i have noticed the pvp sets, which give you an extra 6 buffs (for a full set) during pvp. so, i wouldn't say pvp is being ignored.
i like the fun/funny arcs. i went on one the other day ( i can't remember the name), but we rescued states and he helped us for the mish. we fought all sorts of the standard mobs (about half a dozen normal mob types, ranging from carnies to crey to council, etc). we rescued obama, biden, clinton, etc. they all had funny/ironic sayings for current events.
i've done missions where the villains were 'fashion horrors' and had funny sayings about how they looked good. i've created a pie/clown mission, where the villains are out to destroy Old Lady Parker's Pies (think Sara Lee), and you have to rescue Old Lady Parker, save her corporation and hunt down the pie haters.
but, i've also leveled a few toons that i wanted to play, but just had hell getting teams and getting the toons past the teens. i mean, once you've leveled 6-10 toons to 50... AND you play thru normal content... you're REALLY not going to see anything new. when their 1 or 2 a year issues come out... that content REALLY doesn't last until the next issue (5-10 months later).
so, i dunno. i know that AE is going to help create a TON of lvl 50s that have no clue about how to do anything. i've already been in missions with people in their 30s, talking about how they just made that toon earlier today... and they're asking about enhancements, like... as in... what are enhancements... or, "how do i level? do i have to talk to someone? etc".
so yeah, AE is going to make lvl 50, the new level 3, as far as noobs and incredibly basic questions. which, in turn, will have people getting frustrated and quitting cuz the game is "too easy"... and their noobness is going to frustrate and piss off people playing with them (in non AE situations).
so... who knows... long term, will it be good or bad? will it be better if AE is only for tickets (ie no xp), or would that kill ae? who knows.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
you can rate any arc you play - 0 thru 5 (click on 1 rating twice and it will tell you that you've chosen 0). but... you'll see a lot of ae farms with 4s or 5s for their ratings... and if someone is in a big sg, they could have a couple of hundred raters and a 4 or 5... and it still be a non-good arc...
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Talk about extreme over-exageration. I play on freedom and there don't seem to be that many more people farming.
Bye.
go to cap. all you see in bcast is either people forming a farming team, or people looking for a farm, and people are being retarded with it and SAYING "farm" and talking about how they made lvl 1-40 in a couple of hours.
and you CAN get to lvl 25ish after like two missions.
could we please get correspondent writers and moderators, on the eve forum at mmorpg.com, who are well-versed on eve-online and aren't just passersby pushing buttons? pretty please?
Yeah, if I have one complaint with the new AE system, its that new arcs don't ever seem to get played unless the creator of the arc in question has a few dozen friends willing to play the arc as soon as its finished and give it five star ratings. Then the result of that is a lot of arcs end up with five star ratings which don't deserve them either. I'm baffeled as to how a lot of the developers choice arcs got those positions considering they usually are maybe four star worthy at best.
And I played a five star arc with 100+ votes the other day which was just awful. It was about time traveling Kung-Fu masters searching for magic scrolls that make things explode. The story was like something out of Dragon Ball Z and was filled with multiple spelling and grammar errors. I'm assuming the creator of this arc got a bunch of his buddies to give him five star ratings to get him started and then everyone after that just gave more five star ratings to be nice. I don't send people rude messages if I don't like their arc, but I will atleast give it the rating I think it deserves.
A lot of people are farming, yes, but from what I recall there were a lot of people doing that before the AE too. I knew one guy who did the demon farm atleast five times a day, every day, right before logging off for the day. Plus people farmed the hell out of ITF and KHTF because they were short task forces. It was almost impossible to find people doing any of the other task forces in the game. Now instead of sitting around Portal Corp and looking for people to join their demon farm, these guys are sitting around AE lobbies asking for people to join their new farm they created themselves. I'm not sure a lot has changed other than the location they farm in and what they farm.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields