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System vs. World
Kaldrannath
Member Posts: 22
Why is it considered unreasonable to create (or play in) an MMO in which the systems of the game support the paradigms of the world in which the game is played, instead of a MMO in which the paradigms of the world are often changed to support the system?
An example of the first might be a world where it's possible for mages (at higher levels) to wield magic that can level cities because such a thing is possible according to the ideas of the created world.
An example of the second might be a world in which mages are revised repeatedly so that in a 1v1 fight with a comparably equipped character of the same level, they stand an equal chance of winning or losing, depending very slightly on player skill.
Please keep in mind that mages are not the focus here, just the example. Neither should player skill be the focus.
I've played a large number of MMOs, including all of the major ones available in the US, and started playing these types of games with MajorMUD on a local bbs. From what I have seen, balance between classes and between events (instances and such) and classes or groups of classes has been the approachable, but unattainable goal. Are developers wasting their time (and ours) in trying to achieve balance?
I believe that no MMO will break out of the current rut of what we call cookie-cutter MMOs until those involved in the creative process and funding of MMOs break out of the current lines of thinking about MMOs.
I'm curious as to what you all think about this and, aside from becoming developers ourselves, what we could do to help future MMOs change for the better.
Thanks in advance.
Comments
Well, it is because all MMOs or at least almost all) use about the same rules, a version of D&D that EQ changed to fit it's world.
There are 2 reasons for that:
1. D&D is the main RPG game in US
2. Wow and EQ are the MMOs (together with Guildwars that uses another version of D&D based rules) so no one wants to take a chanse.
But it will hopefully change when CCP & White wolf releses their "World of darkness online" that are based on on White wolfs pen and paper RPG rules. If just a single game can prove that you can make a good MMO that sells well without D&D rules we will see a lot more (I don't count Eve and other games where you control a ship instead of a character).
But you are right, particulary Warhammer should have used the rulesystem that is made for the game instead of just copy>paste from Wow.
How do you design a city in a world of 15k users where 1 of them can destroy it? A grand city can take around a year to properly design from concept. Add in quests and every other amenity it provides and you want to give 1 player the power to destroy it? Do you need to even ask why a developer wouldnt' allow that sort of gameplay in a MMO?
Now say the cities are player built. If 1 player can destroy it, should 1 player be able to build it as well? What kind of goofy city is this=)
This sounds like a single player god strategy game, not a MMO.
Here's a simple idea.
Don't allow players to be mages.
How do you design a city in a world of 15k users where 1 of them can destroy it? A grand city can take around a year to properly design from concept. Add in quests and every other amenity it provides and you want to give 1 player the power to destroy it? Do you need to even ask why a developer wouldnt' allow that sort of gameplay in a MMO?
Now say the cities are player built. If 1 player can destroy it, should 1 player be able to build it as well? What kind of goofy city is this=)
This sounds like a single player god strategy game, not a MMO.
That was an exaggerated example to illustrate the idea of creating a world and then a system that supports the nuances of that world. It wasn't my intention to make the example the focus of the discussion, but rather the idea behind it.
Here's a simple idea.
Don't allow players to be mages.
I would agree with you IF the world in which the game was based didn't have mages, if that makes sense. In other words, I'm advocating the creation of a world first and then creating the system to support that world, disregarding the idea of balance. It's my belief that balance will occur without direct intervention by the powers that be (the game creators).
Here's a simple idea.
Don't allow players to be mages.
I'm a fan of WoD myself and I'm hoping that the MMO version does offer us something unexpected and new. The potential is there if they adhere to the pen and paper system.
Believe it or not, I actually had Warhammer in mind when I started this thread. When it began, Warhammer Online loosley resembled the world on which it was based. The graphics were great as each class and locale was represented well and the idea of RvR was good (even if the way RvR manifested wasn't - scenarios?) But I find fault with individual class skills, for example. They never really did resemble anything out of the Warhammer lore that I have known and they've degenerated even more. I haven't played in some time now, but from what I read here on mmorpg.com, it's only gotten worse. All in the name of balance and greasing squeaky wheels.
So let's hope that whatever comes of the new WoD MMO, the system supports the WoD world and not vice versa.
Thanks, man.
Because fiction is not gameplay. MMOs use fiction to imperfectly rationalize their systems. The systems are far less forgiving than the fiction, so the fiction bends to accomodate the systems.
Letting mages destroy cities might make for interesting fiction, but not when you live in that city. In an MMO, lots of people live in the city. It isn't entertaining for them to lose their city.
Imagine if every town had a button that would level the town. In the real world, nobody in their right mind would press it. The citizens would protect that button with an army to protect it from enemies and the mentally unbalanced.
In an MMO, that button would be pressed about 30 seconds after the game server went live.
The short form is that player characters are crazy relative to the fiction of the game world. I'm sure many would argue that the craziness extends to the real world.
It would be nice if MMO designers would focus on the gameplay first, then figure out a good fiction to lay on top of it that set appropriate expectations. Fiction that doesn't match gameplay is false advertising in my book.
Abso-friggin-lutely. Create a world...functional, and ripe with possiblilities, and dump the players in it. Let them sort out the "balance".
The Devs / GMs should only be concearned with expanding the game, preventing / fixing exploits and cheats, and other than that leave the damn game alone.
MMORPGs have become a mediocre pile of shit what with the endless crying and nerfing, all in the name of "balance", which is really un-attainable anyway.
All you end up trying to "balance" everything is a bland game featuring bland characters in a bland setting.
Let the people who live in the world (the players) find their own balance....their own justice.
Remove "classes", and all that artificial bullshit....create a system of building and progression where players can really shape the world.
No fields of mobs all the same level, just waiting for some player to come along and kill them, so they can respawn and be killed again. It irritates me to walk into some game forest and see 50 damn bears all in one area. If you see ONE bear, you should be running your ASS off.
"Hell Yes" to the virtual world.....and "no goddamn way" to more themepark games.
edit: typos piss me off