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virtual property and online gambling, profit from muddy waters?
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
Does virtual property have real money value? This is an important issue. Why? Well, at the moment it seems to have a real monetary value before it is purchased. What I mean by this is that you have to pay real money to obtain a virtual item in many MMOs. In the SWG TCG you pay real money for virtual cards, for example, or you pay real money for a chance to win virtual items in the MMO. In games with item shops, you appear to pay real money to simply purchase a virtual item for use in an MMO.
What's interesting to me about this is that after the alleged purchase of an item or the winning of an item via making a purchase at an online "store," the item is still said to be the property of the seller. You purchase the item, but are told that it's not yours. You're also told that it can be modified, deleted, or inaccesible at any time, and that these changes can be made at the sole discretion of the "seller." This seems to put it's real money value to the purchaser in question.
This is fascinating. I don't know of any other situation where you purchase something from a seller, and then do not in fact own anything. I also don't know of any other situation where you purchase something and then the seller can after the fact remove it from your possession, or in the case of virtual property cause it to cease to exist altogether.
In my view, buying virtual property from companies like SOE seems more like renting, but is it? If it is, what are the terms of the rental agreement? What are you renting exactly and for how long? If you rent it and it's broken, can you get a refund or a replacement? Once again, it appears that in the case of the rental of virtual items, the renter gets nothing. The item being rented can be unuseable, modified or even deleted at the sole discretion of the party making the item available for use. Is this really acceptable?
Now let's consider all the controversy about alleged gambling for virtual loot. Most gambling legislation suggests that the prize gambled for needs to have a real monetary value. This again is where the water gets muddy. Are people paying money for a chance to win virtual property in the SWG TCG? I would say yes, based on people reporting this on the official forums. Are they gambling for something that has real monetary value though? Well, it seems to have real value, at least until it is actually won. I say this because you have to pay real cash just for the change to get it. If you win though, does it retain it's real monetary value? I think some would say technically that no it does not. Again, is this really acceptable?
I think it's entirely possible that these muddy, legal waters are the basis for a lot of the controversy around RMT and alleged gambling for RMT items. I think it would be in the best interest of all parties, but especially gamers/consumers to have this issue of virtual property resolved.
People spend a lot of money for virtual items, the use of virtual items or the chance to allegedly win virtual items. After spending all of this money, however, they really don't seem to have any rights to own, enjoy or even have access to that which they just paid for. I think that the Federal Trade Commission is looking into issues like this at the moment, and I think that it's really about time we saw a change.
Comments
Just wanted to clariify this one point in your discussion, there is in fact precedent in this sort of purchase.
In the Project Mgmt world, there is a well reknowed person who markets her knowledge in the form of PMP exam prep.
One of the items she markets is "PMP Exam Simulation Software" which can be found here:
store.rmcproject.com/Detail.bok
When you install your software you find out that in fact, you can't really activate it without connecting to her website and getting an access code.
No big deal right? But then you read the fine print and find out you didn't really buy the software. What you are granted is the right to use the software for one year (a rental I suppose) and after that time they disable it.
So you really don't own anything (except the CD's which become totally useless) after your contract runs out.
I guess in games the concepts the same. We dont' really buy anything in a virutal world, we in fact lease it as long as we keep paying and following the TOS. They have a right to terminate the lease and deprive us of this service for any number of reasons.
Now as to your point about the virtual gambling... well, I don't really understand your point. Who cares? You don't want to participate, don't pay them. Pretty simple and a total non-issue as far as I can tell.
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"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The trick will be when the government decides that virtual property has value and passes legislation to tax it. It is coming.
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Just wanted to clariify this one point in your discussion, there is in fact precedent in this sort of purchase.
In the Project Mgmt world, there is a well reknowed person who markets her knowledge in the form of PMP exam prep.
One of the items she markets is "PMP Exam Simulation Software" which can be found here:
store.rmcproject.com/Detail.bok
When you install your software you find out that in fact, you can't really activate it without connecting to her website and getting an access code.
No big deal right? But then you read the fine print and find out you didn't really buy the software. What you are granted is the right to use the software for one year (a rental I suppose) and after that time they disable it.
So you really don't own anything (except the CD's which become totally useless) after your contract runs out.
I guess in games the concepts the same. We dont' really buy anything in a virutal world, we in fact lease it as long as we keep paying and following the TOS. They have a right to terminate the lease and deprive us of this service for any number of reasons.
Now as to your point about the virtual gambling... well, I don't really understand your point. Who cares? You don't want to participate, don't pay them. Pretty simple and a total non-issue as far as I can tell.
Thanks for your example. This at least has some rental terms entitling you to a specific service for a specific period of time. Also, the language used in your example I think is much more clear.
In the MMO world, people are encouraged to "buy" "items" from an online "store." Reading the fine-print, as you say, is important. The trouble is the fine print and the large print seem to convey different messages in MMOs. In large text you're given the impression that you're purchasing an item. In small text you're told that you're not really purchasing anything.
Even if the language was consistent, I think it would be a big improvement.
As for the gambling issue, people allege that some MMO service providers are running unregulated games of chance. People are losing money on these, reportedly by the hundreds or thousands, and they are marketted to minors. Do I think gambling is a problem? No, not in this context. Do I think unregulated gambling is a problem? Yes. Ever play a rigged roulette wheel? How 'bout a slot machine that was rigged not to give you a jackpot? How 'bout video poker that is rigged to not give you certain winning hands? Ever see those huksters running crooked shell games on street corners or in parks?
Games of chance without regulation really just set people up for veiled robbery. They think they're paying for a fair chance at a reward, but they're not, and the odds of winning are not independently monitored. If there are games of chance in MMOs where people risk real dollars hoping to win prizes, they need to be regulated in my opinion to prevent scams. If the service provider can argue, however, that the prizes have no real monetary value, regulation is made more challenging, and scams can go on unhindered.
I agree. Cash strapped states and a federal governemnt mired in heavy debt will definitely jump on this potential cash cow. This will only be the start.
In a world where phrases, names and images have value - it will only be a small matter of time where the virtual world is seen as a place where there is real value that can be taxed, litigated and "protected". RMT all but ensures this happening anyway as it assigns a value independent of the service that is being initially paid for. If I can buy an item for X amount of dollars from the company, what is it then that stops me from selling that item for profit?
I think you've hit on something important here. We all know that we're in a sense leasing access to the servers to play an MMO--although the terms of the lease are generally woefully one-sided and uncharacteristic of other lease agreements. I still think this needs some balance too btw. However, now that you have companies opening "online stores" to "sell" items to consumers that puts things in a whole different light. Selling chances to win an online item takes that even one step further.
I think MMO companies need to decide what it is they're really doing. Are they renting additional options for their service, selling items, or setting up a game of chance? If they're renting additional options to an existing service (like adding channels to your satellite package) then this is the language they should use. It is not the language of items being bought and sold. I find this messaging misleading.
If they decide that they are selling items, they should be prepared to transfer ownership, and yes I'm sure there will be taxes. If they decide they are renting additional features, then I think the waters should be made less muddy in terms of service agreements that give consumers some information about what it is they are renting or leasing, and for how long. I also think this idea that you can pay for access to something that may never actually work or that may be changed at the sole discretion of one side of the agreement is unconscionable (i.e. bullshit in contemporary language lol). Further, if they introduce games of chance for fees. They should be advertised as such and regulated accordingly.
At the moment it seems that some companies (SOE may be one example) are in the business of leasing-out an entertainment service, talking about it as if it's buying and selling items, and introducing games of chance that risk real cash in the hope of winning prizes. Doesn't seem kosher.