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Am I going to get this game for my kids?
ArcAngel3
Member Posts: 2,931
Well, in making this decision I'd first have to look at how players tend to get treated in SOE MMOs. So, I'd be thinking about all those people who spent two years unlocking something in SWG only to have it deleted. I'd think about people taming pets for years, and then having SOE remove creature taming from the game. I'd think about the people looking at their pets in their datapads and not being able to interact with them in any way. Then I think, what if that was one of my kids?
Then I'd think about SOE's new card game that seems to have people gambling for loot items in one of their MMOs. I'd look at how people have spent hundreds of dollars hoping to get a certain loot item, and ended up without the item and a fat visa bill.
I'd also look to see how much they've learned from the StarWars game. They claimed that they wouldn't make the same mistakes they did in that game, and so I'd look at Vanguard. Buggy release missing tons of promised features, followed by revamps: some wanted, some not. Evidence that SOE has changed its ways? Hmmm.
Then I'd look at one of their oldest titles, EQ. That would be the one where Smed said that he was personally against item shops, and that there were no plans for item shops; and now the game has item shops.
I ask myself if this is how SOE treats its adult customers, do I want my kids playing one of their games? I think it's a rhetorical question.
Comments
It's been ages since I've subscribed to an SOE game and I've never had a bad experience with customer service, so I'm going strictly on the game itself. Free Realms is very cute and the mini-games are good fun. Still, after playing and seeing how little attention SOE paid to socialisation, both in feel and mechanics, I probably wouldn't subscribe to this game for my kids. (I should mention that I don't have any!
) At least not for kids that within the demographic for the game. I would want them to learn cooperative play and all I see are people running around alone. Fix that and I think I'd be willing to pay for my imaginary children to play.
Stay away from SOE.
Edit: In all honesty, Vanguard was developed and launched separate from SOE, so you shouldn't blame them for that. They did take it over afterwards and have helped it a little, but it seems they've abandoned it now. It doesn't even show up on many of their game lists. That's their only saving grace IMHO, though it doesn't make up for the rest of their BS.
A lot of what the OP may be true but one thing is not completely true is that Vanguard wasn't originally SOE's project. It was Brad McQuaids of Sigil games. I did hear however that SOE did kinda rush the project once they bought into Sigil, but as far as the revamps I would say that is SOE's attempts at fixing the game. I play it currently and I'm quite happy with. This coming from a Vanguard player that quit my subscription 3 months after launch because I couldn't deal with the issues any longer. The game has come a long way since then and a lot of that would be SOE's efforts to make it more enjoyable. The only complaint I guess I could say about Vanguard is why did it take so long to get it to this point it's at today?
I think it has nothing to do with the game, itself. This is a Free Realms forum, not an SOE forum. All you've done in this thread is bash SOE, not actually discuss the game.
~Ripper
Also this game is being designed for kids all the other games where not. I enjoyed the beta and i can see it being oen i could actuilly get my wife to play and she hates all the tradinal MMO's like wow that i play. This is one i can fianly tell my mom she woud probably enjoy playing. She likes playing the warcraft games but i told her to stay away from WOW cause i played it and i knew all the means idiots that play that game would make it a unfun experience.
I think it has nothing to do with the game, itself. This is a Free Realms forum, not an SOE forum. All you've done in this thread is bash SOE, not actually discuss the game.
~Ripper
Well tbh, my kids want in on the whole MMO deal now that they're getting a little older, and they want Dad to help them pick a good game. This one came to our attention. I'm thinking out loud about whether or not to recommend this game to them.
I think that's relevant, frankly. When I think about this, I can't help remembering the crappy way SOE has treated people over the years, including myself and some good friends of mine. I can just imagine what my kids would go through if SOE deletes their pets or something ridiculous like that, or if they work hard to achieve something in the game, and then it gets deleted out of the blue because my kids like to read too much or something.
I think SOE should realize that they're now marketting products to the children of parents that they royally burned. They have a lot of work to do, I think, to build some bridges if they want us to give this product a thumbs up. Most important to me at this point is the way they implement RMT. I don't like what I'm seeing in SWG or EQ. Since Free Realms is going to have RMT, I think that's an important concern.
Regarding Vanguard, I don't really want to get into an argument over it, but I believe it was a joint project with Sigil and SOE, and that SOE set the release date. When the game did miserably, SOE took over completely. If anyone wants to check out the wiki, I think you can verify this. If not, that's okay, I can agree to disagree.
P.S. There are no sub-forums yet for this game. This is not solely about gameplay. It's about anything Free Realms, and my comments are specifically about why or why I will not be looking at this for my kids. I think those are fair comments. I'd also think SOE might be interested in this feedback if they want the game to be successful.
Most of what you posted happens in EVERY MMO at one point or another....
Actually I've played MMO's made by 3 different companies and never saw anything close to what I saw SOE do to its players, really. As a parent, that sticks with me.
I would also notice, however, if they put a lot more emphasis on honest communication, quality and good customer service. That's what I mean by bridge building. I'll wait to see if they can pull this off before recommending this game to my kids.
I could pick apart your post point by point but whats the point, you prety much picked 1 game to single out as to why you dislike SOE.
You bring up EQ and Smed about cash shops, so you really think he had much of a choice when Sony said to DO IT...
You bouugh up the card games, WOW has them and they are most worst, just look on ebay for thr spectral Tiger card...
I think you need to take anything your told or promised with a grain of salt, everything is life is "Subject to Change" at one point or another.
It's one thing to pull this RMT crap on adults in more adult oriented games but to pull this crap on a much younger targeted audience is beyond scrupulous if you ask me. This game is clearly target towards kids. Waving the SC flag infront of them is praying on the weak hoping they will convince mom and dad to buy them some virtual goods. This is even more apparent when you look at the pets. Kids love owning pets in their games. Guess you have to ask mom and dad if they feel like buying you one eh?
This game should have been a 100% P2P from day one. F2P cash shops has no business being in a game directed towards kids.
Me and my family will advid this turd as well.
Just a friendly tip. Toys are not free either and if you can say no when walking past Games 'R Us, then you can say no here aswell. I pretty shure that your upbringing of the kids made them understand that some things you don't need to buy all the time.
You share a common view that one encounters all the time. And I'm also surprised that parents don't feel insulted by the ignorance in saying that "praying on the weak hoping they will convince mom and dad to buy them".
Just as regular parents can't say no to their kids? Oh, shure, I can but I'm speaking of the average parents here, not me.
Having to deal with kids that wants this or that is the least of problems, trust me, it would be worse if they did not want things. If they just shrugged their shoulders and walked away caring nothing. I did not get that, so what?
It's a choice spend your allowance on this or that.
I'm so broke. I can't even pay attention.
"You have the right not to be killed"
Actually I've played MMO's made by 3 different companies and never saw anything close to what I saw SOE do to its players, really. As a parent, that sticks with me.
I would also notice, however, if they put a lot more emphasis on honest communication, quality and good customer service. That's what I mean by bridge building. I'll wait to see if they can pull this off before recommending this game to my kids.
Don't play free realms. I mean your concerns are 100% valid and SoE being in the business to make money is always going to balance business needs against customer desires. If making a change is something they believe will benefit the game by increasing the customer base or by increasing revenue then they are going to do it.
If they believe the structure or operation of a game is hurting it's customer retention or aquisition of new customers then they are going to change it. They will try to balance this out vs the impact on the current base for sure but ultimately they will decide what is in their best interest. Will they always make the right decision? I think history can imply that the answer is no... Will they intentionally make a bad decision that hurts revenue, no way.
What SoE does bring to the table is quite a lot of experience. I'd guess they have learned quite a bit about this industry in the past years. I'd guess that if they were doing SWG today they might do things differently...
RE VG this was sigil not SoEs issue. In fact VG was going down the tubes, out of money, incomplete with no publisher. Then SoE gave them some money and agreed to publish the game. Then sigil burned through that money and wanted more. SoE gave them more money and said when it runs out we ship it or shut it down. Brad decided to ship and hoped to fix it fast enough using the revenue from box sales to keep going. Unfortunately it failed and Sigil went bankrupt and SoE picked up the game for probably pennies on the dollar in terms of dev costs. Since then they have made VG live within it's means and the devs that are left have slowly fixed the game to the point where it is good now. SoE CS in VG is amazing so SoE has learned a lot about CS based on past games.
So most of your points are completely valid and past behavior is a predictor of future behavior. So forgetting my comments if you feel your kids would be hurt by changes like this then it is definitely a good idea to not have them play this game.
---
Ethion
Just a friendly tip. Toys are not free either and if you can say no when walking past Games 'R Us, then you can say no here aswell. I pretty shure that your upbringing of the kids made them understand that some things you don't need to buy all the time.
You share a common view that one encounters all the time. And I'm also surprised that parents don't feel insulted by the ignorance in saying that "praying on the weak hoping they will convince mom and dad to buy them".
Just as regular parents can't say no to their kids? Oh, shure, I can but I'm speaking of the average parents here, not me.
Having to deal with kids that wants this or that is the least of problems, trust me, it would be worse if they did not want things. If they just shrugged their shoulders and walked away caring nothing. I did not get that, so what?
It's a choice spend your allowance on this or that.
It certainly is important for parents, myself included, to learn to say no to their children. The fact that children are going to want pets is a bit manipulative on SOE's part I think, but it's not my main concern tbh.
My main concern is that my kids, or someone else's, are going to join the game, want a pet, have mom or dad buy it for them and then watch it disappear possibly the very next day. This is part of the business model according to the EULA.
Sometimes you buy toys and they break or someone steals them. That's just life sometimes. You talk to your kids and explain this to them, help them learn to soothe themselves and move on. What's difficult to explain in this case is that the breaking of the toy or it's "elimination" (referring to the language in the EULA) is part of the plan.
In essence, I would have to sit my kids down and say to them, "O.k. Dad's going to buy you this pet, but the people who run the game can break it, change it, or remove it anytime they want alright?" Honestly, that's just not the kind of thing I want to set my kids up for.
In contrast to this, they can play Webkinz online. There's a nice world for them to explore, safe chat features, minigames and pets galore. They buy a pet for 6 dollars or 11, depending on its size. They get a physical pet that they own, and they get a virtual pet that will not be broken, changed or taken away from them for a one year period of time. That, imo, is just a much friendlier way of marketting online pets to kids. Sure maybe the game will break accidentally. Sometimes the server requires maintenance, but this is not part of the business plan. The company has the best of intentions to make the virtual pet available to my child for exactly one year.
If my kids want to purchase virtual items for their virtual pet, they can do so, and these will also last exactly one year. They use virtual cash to make these purchases that they win via minigames. Their pet also gets rewards at birthdays and holidays etc., just because. If they want me to make RMT purchases for them, we can do that to. I can buy a physical item for the physical pet that they will own. They own the physical item outright. A virtual version of it then shows up in the online world, and once again will last for the one year period.
On to another concern, there is a part of the Free Realms EULA that presumes my kids can read and understand that if they use my VISA card, they are assumed to have my permission. If this was not the case, I'm advised to contact SOE after the fact. I really don't think this is very responsible on the part of SOE. I think that parents should be addressed in the EULA and that all VISA purchases should be made by adults.
So, really it's a combination of things that has me thinking this way. It's some of the things I've seen with SOE in the past, and some aspects of the current business model that raised concerns for me.
Actually I've played MMO's made by 3 different companies and never saw anything close to what I saw SOE do to its players, really. As a parent, that sticks with me.
I would also notice, however, if they put a lot more emphasis on honest communication, quality and good customer service. That's what I mean by bridge building. I'll wait to see if they can pull this off before recommending this game to my kids.
Don't play free realms. I mean your concerns are 100% valid and SoE being in the business to make money is always going to balance business needs against customer desires. If making a change is something they believe will benefit the game by increasing the customer base or by increasing revenue then they are going to do it.
If they believe the structure or operation of a game is hurting it's customer retention or aquisition of new customers then they are going to change it. They will try to balance this out vs the impact on the current base for sure but ultimately they will decide what is in their best interest. Will they always make the right decision? I think history can imply that the answer is no... Will they intentionally make a bad decision that hurts revenue, no way.
What SoE does bring to the table is quite a lot of experience. I'd guess they have learned quite a bit about this industry in the past years. I'd guess that if they were doing SWG today they might do things differently...
RE VG this was sigil not SoEs issue. In fact VG was going down the tubes, out of money, incomplete with no publisher. Then SoE gave them some money and agreed to publish the game. Then sigil burned through that money and wanted more. SoE gave them more money and said when it runs out we ship it or shut it down. Brad decided to ship and hoped to fix it fast enough using the revenue from box sales to keep going. Unfortunately it failed and Sigil went bankrupt and SoE picked up the game for probably pennies on the dollar in terms of dev costs. Since then they have made VG live within it's means and the devs that are left have slowly fixed the game to the point where it is good now. SoE CS in VG is amazing so SoE has learned a lot about CS based on past games.
So most of your points are completely valid and past behavior is a predictor of future behavior. So forgetting my comments if you feel your kids would be hurt by changes like this then it is definitely a good idea to not have them play this game.
I think you acknowledged my concerns and at the same time affirmed SOE's right to do business as they see fit. Very respectful, very refreshing. A rare balance imo.
I'd be interested in your views on my post above regarding pet ownership in Webkinz and some of the language in the Free Realms EULA.
I really just think that SOE could handle these things in a more "kid-friendly" way. What do you think? The game's new, maybe they'll listen to these concerns and make adjustments before things go wrong (shrug).
Pure trolling. This guy never intended to play or let his kids play this game. Just checkout his post history. Why don't you leave these forums for us who really want to talk about Free Realms.
Shall we have a look at yours?
At least he doesn't have every single post talking about SoE games (positively obviously).
For such an active member of the forums you seems to have no interest whatsoever in any other MMOs outside SoE's one, which is a bit odd.
They should give you a job.
Oh wait.....................
Shall we have a look at yours?
At least he doesn't have every single post talking about SoE games (positively obviously).
For such an active member of the forums you seems to have no interest whatsoever in any other MMOs outside SoE's one, which is a bit odd.
They should give you a job.
Oh wait.....................
Good to hear from you again it has been ahile. Actually you need to check my history. I have posted on other game forums Ryzom, WoW, War, Wizards 101, LOTRO, Etc. However lately I have been posting on SOE forums because I post in forums on games I actually play and am interested in. Right now I play EQ2 and Free Realms since I cancelled all my other subscriptions. Unlike others who troll SOE game forums or do not even play mmos. Oh wait, just like you. I remember only a couple weeks ago you admitting you do not even play mmos. You do remember that? You see I find it much more interesting that someone would spend a lot of time posting at an mmo site when they do not currently play any mmos. I am a subscribing member of Free Realms that is why I am here, why are you?
I know you think I work for SOE you have suggested this before. I find this extremely funny, my student would also. You see I am a college art instructor. This nonsense I am a viral marketer or employee of SOE shows how delusional some of the anti-SOE crowd are. Even Daff would probably find this amusing. He and I totally disagree and it sometimes gets a touch ugly but at least he is not delusional. Recently it was even suggested I am actually Smedley. You guys really need to let go of your SOE hate because it is distorting your view of reality.
So Ste2000 how do you like Free Realms? Oh wait... you don't play Free Realms. See you under the bridge troll.
Pure trolling. This guy never intended to play or let his kids play this game. Just checkout his post history. Why don't you leave these forums for us who really want to talk about Free Realms.
I must say, you're attempting to read my mind, and failing. I did in fact recently have a discussion with my children about their interest in online games. I approached Free Realms out of curiosity to see if SOE seems to have learned from past mistakes. I was hopeful, but had my doubts. As I read the EULA my doubts seemed to be confirmed.
They seem to embrace in this game the very principles that have created so much trouble in others. Having done this research, I felt it would be appropriate to share with other gamers, parents in particular.
What I see here is in fact an attempt to manipulate the moderators into ending a respectful discussion about this new game, simply because I have not whole-heartedly endorsed it.
Out of curiosity, I would like to hear what other parents think of the idea that you buy virtual pets for your kids, and that SOE then reserves the right to eliminate them at any time without any warning it seems. Do you think this sets kids up for a bad experience? I'm not trying to manipulate the conversation though by any means, if this doesn't bother you, feel free to disagree with me.
Also, here's the part of the EULA that also raised concerns for me as a parent:
"If you elect to subscribe to or purchase fee-based content, games, products and/or services and transmit to SOE a purchase request, you warrant that (i) you are the age of majority in your jurisdiction, or (ii) if you are a minor, you have your parent's permission, and that your use of the particular credit card or other accepted method of payment is authorized and that all information that you submit is true and accurate (including, without limitation, your credit card number and expiration date), and you agree to pay all fees you incur"
I've never seen minors addressed specifically in a EULA before concerning the assumption that their use of their parents credit card is authorized. Does this seem odd to anyone else?
Pure trolling. This guy never intended to play or let his kids play this game. Just checkout his post history. Why don't you leave these forums for us who really want to talk about Free Realms.
I must say, you're attempting to read my mind, and failing. I did in fact recently have a discussion with my children about their interest in online games. I approached Free Realms out of curiosity to see if SOE seems to have learned from past mistakes. I was hopeful, but had my doubts. As I read the EULA my doubts seemed to be confirmed.
They seem to embrace in this game the very principles that have created so much trouble in others. Having done this research, I felt it would be appropriate to share with other gamers, parents in particular.
What I see here is in fact an attempt to manipulate the moderators into ending a respectful discussion about this new game, simply because I have not whole-heartedly endorsed it.
Arch, if indeed you are truely interested in Free Realms then I apologize. However after our last encounter you might understand why I feel this way. Despite what you feel about other SOE games or past business decisions there is nothing in Free Realms that parents need to concern themselves with. SOE has made a fun, affordable, safe game for kids. It is also a good time for us older kids.
I am not trying to manipulate anyone. The moderators have minds and make decisions on trolling not me. However, all this said yes I do think you at times troll. I have no interest in stopping anyone opinions or stopping this discussion. The fact is I do not work for SOE as Ste2000 has suggested more then once.
If total disclosure is what you are claiming to do then parents also should know your total stance against SOE. Also that your conclusions on Free Realms is not based only on the game and what it offers ( since you have never played it) but a history of posting against SOE. If what you are trying to do is educate then this is important to. Just as I am a supporter of SOE should be understood when they read my assesment of the game. The difference is I actually play the game and am a subscribing member. That does not make my opinion any more valid but it does show I am truly interested in the game. This is a great family game that the whole family can enjoy.
Pure trolling. This guy never intended to play or let his kids play this game. Just checkout his post history. Why don't you leave these forums for us who really want to talk about Free Realms.
I must say, you're attempting to read my mind, and failing. I did in fact recently have a discussion with my children about their interest in online games. I approached Free Realms out of curiosity to see if SOE seems to have learned from past mistakes. I was hopeful, but had my doubts. As I read the EULA my doubts seemed to be confirmed.
They seem to embrace in this game the very principles that have created so much trouble in others. Having done this research, I felt it would be appropriate to share with other gamers, parents in particular.
What I see here is in fact an attempt to manipulate the moderators into ending a respectful discussion about this new game, simply because I have not whole-heartedly endorsed it.
Arch, if indeed you are truely interested in Free Realms then I apologize. However after our last encounter you might understand why I feel this way. Despite what you feel about other SOE games or past business decisions there is nothing in Free Realms that parents need to concern themselves with. SOE has made a fun, affordable, safe game for kids. It is also a good time for us older kids.
I am not trying to manipulate anyone. The moderators have minds and make decisions on trolling not me. However, all this said yes I do think you at times troll. I have no interest in stopping anyone opinions or stopping this discussion. The fact is I do not work for SOE as Ste2000 has suggested more then once.
If total disclosure is what you are claiming to do then parents also should know your total stance against SOE. Also that your conclusions on Free Realms is not based only on the game and what it offers ( since you have never played it) but a history of posting against SOE. If what you are trying to do is educate then this is important to. Just as I am a supporter of SOE should be understood when they read my assesment of the game. The difference is I actually play the game and am a subscribing member. That does not make my opinion any more valid but it does show I am truly interested in the game. This is a great family game that the whole family can enjoy.
Thanks Eccoton. I think this is very well said. Thanks for acknowledging my honesty about discussing this MMO with my kids. I thought if SOE was ever to come up with a more user friendly approach to doing business, it would be in this game in light of the target audience.
I was very surprised to see some of the EULA terms, as they seem to set the stage for some of the things that have been controversial in their games in the past. I also considered taking the free trial, but once again the part in the EULA about SOE's access to my PC gave me pause.
I think it's fair for me to discuss this here as a gamer and a parent, and I appreciate you respecting that. I don't hide the fact that I've had bad experiences with SOE in the past. It's also true, however, that I've had good experiences with them. I have in fact corresponded with a number of SOE folks, and have a positive relationship with many that have worked for them. They also provided me with my best MMO experience to date. I still think Koster's a genius
.
Having said that, I truly was expecting a more kid friendly business model (from my point of view), and was shocked and frustrated by what I found. I think that comes out in the OP, but it's not meant to antagonize anyone. My feelings are very subjective of course. If you enjoy the game and think the business model is okay, I respect that as well.
P.S. I think that my intentions in the other post you referred to were badly misrepresented by others. I've never had any bad feelings towards you as some suggested. People really do sometimes accuse others of motives on these boards, and get them wrong, really wrong. Peace and happy gaming. I respect your opinions and your right to disagree with mine
.
Also, If SOE makes any changes to the aspects of the business model that I find objectionable, I'd be happy to give it a shot. For now, I'm putting it on the shelf. That's me. As for others, I just think it would be a good idea to read the EULA so they can make an informed decision about the game.