The thing is that you seem to confuse "Innovation" with "What I like and want"... You want a certain kind of games and innovasion but the MMOs are moving in another direction but it still is evolving and brings lots of new features. I dont think you want innovasion, you just want things to be like they were 10 yeras ago and thats the opposit to innovasion.
Just pull your head out of that dark hole and realize that you opinoin isnt the most important in this world..
Yes. I have suggested it is "immersion" features where innovation is lacking or missing. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I enjoy immersion features. FULL DISCLOSURE.
"Pull your head out . . . and realize . . . your opinion" is just an opinion. Indeed. My opinion is only an opinion, and it is an opinion about MMORPGs expressed on an MMORPG web page dedicated to discussing MMORPGs.
I have, however, tried to discuss that innovation in graphics, payment schemes, and so forth is not the kind of innovation that will lead to increased sales.
Innovation with respect to immersion features, on the other hand, will or should result in increased sales.
That is really the whole point: how not to innovate.
Successful Games have to bring something new to the table thats fun,that makes up for all the copy and paste the rest of the game comprises of.
Succesful Games are products, and qaulity counts.Games have to be stable and hassle free,while bringing something new thats fun to the table.
Currently these simple things are beyond the dev teams of present.They think any monkey can win,no monkey ever pays a price for failure,and new suits for the monkeys are core rules of MMO design.
Its not hard to understand why they think and act this way,dinosaurs will after all be dinosaurs.
And so we get new game X, which has the same core mechanics of old game Y,is even easier to "win", and has a new skin.And thats the core of the new game X.
To this core they will add a new idea or two,but spend more energy and effort on hyping the new feature,than making it work in a fun and hassle free manner.
MMOs need a full rewrite, the industry needs a full purge, and the money needs to be directed at talented people putting forth a fun , challenging and hassle free product.
But as it stands now, we have the smeds,brads,gautes,troops,kosters,garriots,etc... Who's only real claims to fame are being able to talk people into giving them money, and being among the first in the industry they have slowly maimed....
Theres little room for new blood, til the old blood gives way.
After they have gone, then their doctrines can be cast aside.Til then, expect the same game youve played before, with new skins and new screwups .Because its all they know.
And as such, each "new" MMO they put out, will have even less ability to hold a customer base than the ones before them,becuase the players have already been there and done that so many times before ,theres too little appeal to hold a players interest.
Guys, this guy confuses "Innovation" with his SUBJECTIVE un-disclosed definition of each thing.
It's pointless to discuss with him. He keeps spouting the same shitt over and over again, you could point him to his dream game that has everything on his LIST that he has posted 20 times now, and it would not fit his criteria.
Because this conversation from post one has been subjective, and he has his fingers in his ears. He dosn't want the things on his list, he wants whats in his head.
Some old, inflated, never existed version of a MMO 10 years dead.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
What don't you understand about my post where I provided specifics where we want and expect innovation (worlds, customization) as opposed to graphics, engines, etc.
I suppose it is finally time that I try Ryzom.
Believe it or not, never tried it.
You didn't post specifics. Ever. If your list was specific, then you would be enjoying the games we keep recommending.
You never tried ryzom, yet my post with a list of games the DO have innovation, is ignored. And you make a thread calming mater of factually that no games innovate anymore.
You picking up on the irony yet?
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Originally posted by tkobo Currently these simple things are beyond the dev teams of present.
Possibly.
The industry appears strongly inbred, where the only people who seem to be able to get into it are the ones who are rabid supporters of the existing games. The independent developers provide some hope of end-running that situation if it is actually in place.
An alternative explanation is that the guys writing the checks just can't see the value in fooling around with large scale experiments that are likely to get them fired after they blow $50 million of their company's money.
Then there's the theory that the resource requirements are just too great for any sort of significant 'advance' in MMO gaming. Too many servers, too much network bandwidth, too great a demand on databases, etc.
I'm a bit surprised that we don't see more small experiments being published by companies to try out single player experiences before trying to incorporate them into MMO titles. Even simple flash games would permit game systems to be tried out.
Heck, Blizzard has tens of millions of people that they could invite into single player experiences that use all the content that they've already downloaded onto client computers. Why not try out a single-player sword crafting, fishing or juggling game? Just to see if the simple experience is interesting to anyone.
You know what was a really innovative game was Neverwinter Nights 1 with its platform that allowed for user-generated content, quests, items, NPCs, and even worlds. It was brilliant.
I anticipated Neverwinter Nights 2 to augment these features and make them user-friendly; it actually became the biggest disappointment in my GAMING LIFE how buggy, broken, and unintuitive the tools were. Just a deplorable game.
Vampire: the Masquerade similarly had user-tools to create stories and content.
We need an MMORPG that empowers the player to design worlds, or sections of worlds; these tools must be user-friendly, intuitive, and fun. The customer can create depth, sophistication, and so forth in generating content.
Developers do not need the cost and expense then of releasing new content as much.
Certainly expansions could be useful in limited respects.
It is high time we take the MMORPG to its next level: player-empowerment with user-created content. Let players generate the depth and sophistication, or the simplicity and easy-mode, that so many yearn for. Everyone, possibly, could be satisfied with this new and innovative MMORPG model.
Ex.: the player not only creates the dragon, but controls the dragon; with its unique attributes, drops, and even story.
Ex.: the player not only controls an NPC in town, but created it with its unique attributes, history, and so forth.
Ex.: the player acquire materials and literally designs the physical attributes as well as the stats of the items.
A new and innovative MMORPG model with user-friendly tools and accessibility.
We have tried, and completed, developer's quests and dungeons and raids.
MMORPGs feel the same? Try one in which players actually have the tools, incentive, and fun opportunities to generate DIFFERENT characters, quests, towns, NPCs, dungeons, and worlds.
Heck, Blizzard has tens of millions of people that they could invite into single player experiences that use all the content that they've already downloaded onto client computers. Why not try out a single-player sword crafting, fishing or juggling game? Just to see if the simple experience is interesting to anyone.
Blizzard does not have to fool around with single player experiments when they have a massive MMO where they can do experiments in. They have been trying a lot of new ideas and concepts in WoW that I am sure they will expand on in their new MMOs. Daily quests, vehicle combat, achievement based progression, heroic modes, loot tokens are all new ways of providing content that they have been trying and experimenting with. Those that prove successfull they expand on and are sure to use in a future MMO they develop.
Not everybody is looking for innovation. Just fresh new challenges that's entertaining. I could care less about seeing something completely new never seen in the genre before. I just want a fun well polished game.
What he said.
I honestly don't care about innovation as much as I care about fun and polish. If the game is done well and I enjoy it, that's all that matters.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer
Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating"
"Fun"
Tradition is respected
Science is respected
Development is an art
Development is a science
Gameplay is varied
Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit
Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse
Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered
Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal
"Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex
Simple
I could continue. The problem for us "immersion" gamers, however, is that we are out-numbered - by far. Yet there are more of us than developers would think.
The tastes of the mass market are simply incompatible with mine as an "immersion gamer."
Edit 2: Let's face it: MMORPGs are, today, designed for dumb people.
Hence, why the gameplay, worlds, content, and everything else is dumbed-down.
You should have left it without the second edit. You were on target with the "immersion gamer" comment. The masses of people who play the mainstream MMORPG titles are not dumb. They simply don't care to invest of their energies in MMORPGs as much as you. You want immersion, difficulty, challenge and so forth. They want to bonk monsters on the head and see what pops out. They save their energies for the challenge and immersion of family, job or whatever other hobby that they're most enthusiastic about.
It works out that there are vastly more people who want to bonk monsters than want to be immersed in the sorts of virtual environments that MMORPGs present.
"Immersion gamer" is also, subjective. Untill he defines it, with out opinion, its irrelevent to keep saying it.
Having read his posts before, i think i can safely define it, this is also why its pointless to discuss with him.
Here is his deffinition:
Must take huge amounts of time
Must play like work
Accessibility is seen as "hand holding"
Amount of time = challenge.
Social aspects must be forced by intentionally creating/not including useful systems, such as auction houses or other systems that understand the current majority of MMO players do not have 8 hours a day to dedicate. (Originally, most the social interactions in games like EQ came about due to lack of features at the time, after all there was no prescient)
What we have, is a clear case of rose colored glasses.
First, I'm not "taking up" for the guy you are professing to know what exactly he wants. I don't know him. I'm just addressing your assumptions. I consider myself an immersion gamer if the alternative is what we've been getting lately (post 2004) with respect to large capital MMO developers.
1) Must take huge amounts of time: You can try to make this out in a negative manner if you like, but the non-immersion games (such as WoW for argument's sake) originally took some of the longest times for certain content. I don't think there was any content in UO or AC that took 4 hours of Texas two-stepping to do. I guess the raiding in EQ did, from what I've heard. I never got past level 30 in EQ.
What I, as an "immersion gamer" want to see are some aspects/content that take a dedicated sit-down of an hour or two. Notice I didn't say everything. Today, however, the vast majority of "content" (as there is hardly anything else to do but combat, combat, combat) is in 15-20 minutes spurts. Just a preference, sure. But having the option of both isn't really there these days.
2) Must play like work: Ok, this comment is about as bad as not having a point in a debate and applying Godwin's Law to the first aspect of your opponents view that you can. There is absolutly nothing, nothing wrong with wanting a game or some content that you have to actually sit down and focus attention to. If you had played UO or AC you'd know that.
3) Accessibility is hand holding in the method companies are applying it today. Players really don't have to think or analyze or otherwise mobilize the grey matter when playing. Quest givers have icons over their heads, quest locations are marked with big colorful icons on your game map and radar. You really don't have to put any effort in doing anything as you other than pointing your character in the "laser marked" direction and hitting numlock. Who cares if you die, you don't lose anything, not even time with the prevalence of spawn locations these days. Heck, dying may get you closer to your destination!
4) Amount of time = Challenge. No, not totally. But time does play an equal parts factor in overall challenge. Do deny that is, in my opinion, being unreasonable.
5) Social aspects must be forced by intentionally creating/not including useful systems, such as auction houses or other systems that understand the current majority of MMO players do not have 8 hours a day to dedicate.: Again, comments like this make me believe you never played UO or AC. It never, never took 8 hours to find what I needed in UO from a player vendor. Heck, the longest time I can remember off the top of my head was 2 1/2 hours, and it was because I was being miserly and wanted to comparison shop. And what most people so conveniently leave out of that discussion is that once you find a vendor who has the stuff you need at a price you're comfprtable paying, you're set.
It isn't "rose colored glasses". It's more I played the game and found out what I like. I'm sure you wouldn't like others making such comments about your likes based on your past experiences. It's a crass thing to do at best. Fast food, fast cars, fast gratification: It's no secret that the majority of the world loves "easy mode". There are, however, plenty of gamers out there who aren't adverse to and really enjoy a game that allows them meaningful opportunities to invest their hobby time.
Most people who enjoy such just want a top notch, top quality, top mmo developer to put something out there like they did in the first generation for us. Personally, I've never once wanted the "accessible game" to stop being made for you guys. I just don't enjoy it myself, and want "my kind" of game made too. Having viable choices is a good thing.
I wasn't going to make another post in this thread, but yours was well thought out enough to do so.
Sadly, my only response is, Modern MMO's already offer the things your looking for. As a majority of its content, no. But it is there, i hate to bring up LOTRO again, but they have everything your listing. Most of them do. You just keep the glasses on, and claim they do not.
I just did an instance the other night, took 2 hours with a full group.
Some of this, is also boiling down to "Get off my lawn".
I did play UO, and AC. UO was not a DIKU, AC was second gen, also, not pure DIKU. EQ was first (Pure DIKU). You didn't get past 30, in EQ. Its like, my point is being echoed.
I don't profess to know, i said i felt it was safe for me to define it, nothing you posted counted that, in fact, you solidified it with rationalization.
And I'd agree that "modern" MMOs offer it in so much as after a day or week what they do offer is used up. You mention LOTRO. I've played it (heck, was in the beta), taking my Dwarf Minstrel to max level (before MoM) and mastered weaponsmithing. All the time playing it I had the overwhelming sensation of being led from area to area by my nose. It is rail content based, in large part due to the book quests. That, to me, is not appealing, and is in large part why I left.
As for not getting past 30 in EQ, I think it best you ask me why I didn't instead of making your assumption. Granted, I left it open for you to make an assumption which makes a culprit in part. I stopped at 30 because all but 2 of my friends had left the game to play something else and the 2 that were left were many levels ahead of me. I left to join my friends in other games. Not because I didn't enjoy EQ. And EQ was a game that factored in playing with friends to it's challenge rating.
I don't believe I solidified your point as much as showed that these "immersion gamers" aren't the extremist being on the whole that what the devs to show up and stab us with a sword if we die in game as the majority of people out there try to portray us. Yes, we want a more time consuming game. Yes, there are responsible fun ways to do it. The part that caused me to respond to your poat, which you have since thrown out again, is the rose-colored glasses part. It's fine if you didn't like it, but trying to belittle others with such comments as if they don't know what they enjoyed, as I said, it's crass at best and certainly takes away from any point you were attempting to make.
This genre could benefit from having more choice. That choice being what's currently being rolled out as well as games that are a little more sim/time-consuming/world>game, games.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
I could continue. The problem for us "immersion" gamers, however, is that we are out-numbered - by far. Yet there are more of us than developers would think.
You're seriously overthinking all of this.
Also, if you really want to immerse yourself in a world, try LARPing or go work at a Renaissance Faire. MMO's haven't been about a player fully immersing themselves in a fully realized world since EQ overtook UO all those years ago and became the dominant game style.
Its like your riding on those lame car rides at an amusement park that are on rails. Except now they have made the car much more awesome. But the fact of the matter is your still on a rail when it comes to newer games like WoW.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
Lidane, I actually made this table specifically with you in mind, and I do not think you dispute it. What you describe as "over-thinking" is simple analysis for me. Although I am confident in saying you are a very bright person in real-life, you are not a very sophisticated gamer. Sophisticated in terms of discerning and appreciating depth in Quests, customization features to creating/developing a character, world diversity, varied gameplay options, and certainly innovative elements.
Lidane said,
"I don't care about innovation. . . . I care about fun and polish."
It is not that your priority is wrong, it is that it is too simple: fun and polish.
I, too, want fun and polish, but I also want and expect more.
You demonstrate my point precisely, which is why I distinguished commercialized gamers and immersion gamers after reading your post. Commercialized gamers have simple and low standards, and typically get even less than that.
EDIT/ASIDE: I am watching Walter Isaacson on Einstein here, and there is a theme of science v. religion. In the MMORPG industry, there is a struggle, happening NOW, involving commercialized gamers v. immersion gamers, and make no doubt about it your side is winning. It is a divide. Similar to how religion was forced-fed in school, we immersion gamers are being forced-fed raiding, PvP, linear content, limited and fixed worlds, and so forth. Return to the roots of MMORPGs, bring back the roleplay element, but introduce innovative features. It is exploring new, fascinating, and bizarre worlds and taking the MMORPG experience to a greater level using innovation elements in content to customization to new tools.
Without making innovation a goal in the development of MMORPGs, the creative process is lost and blind.
You know what was a really innovative game was Neverwinter Nights 1 with its platform that allowed for user-generated content, quests, items, NPCs, and even worlds. It was brilliant.
I anticipated Neverwinter Nights 2 to augment these features and make them user-friendly; it actually became the biggest disappointment in my GAMING LIFE how buggy, broken, and unintuitive the tools were. Just a deplorable game.
Vampire: the Masquerade similarly had user-tools to create stories and content.
We need an MMORPG that empowers the player to design worlds, or sections of worlds; these tools must be user-friendly, intuitive, and fun. The customer can create depth, sophistication, and so forth in generating content. Developers do not need the cost and expense then of releasing new content as much. Certainly expansions could be useful in limited respects.
It is high time we take the MMORPG to its next level: player-empowerment with user-created content. Let players generate the depth and sophistication, or the simplicity and easy-mode, that so many yearn for. Everyone, possibly, could be satisfied with this new and innovative MMORPG model.
Ex.: the player not only creates the dragon, but controls the dragon; with its unique attributes, drops, and even story. Ex.: the player not only controls an NPC in town, but created it with its unique attributes, history, and so forth. Ex.: the player acquire materials and literally designs the physical attributes as well as the stats of the items. A new and innovative MMORPG model with user-friendly tools and accessibility.
We have tried, and completed, developer's quests and dungeons and raids. MMORPGs feel the same? Try one in which players actually have the tools, incentive, and fun opportunities to generate DIFFERENT characters, quests, towns, NPCs, dungeons, and worlds.
Why should I pay a company a fee to play content made by other players?
I should then be paying the players who made the content. And I'll be damned if I'm cutting a hundred different checks evey month.
So, no. If the developer can't make enough viable content on their own, then they don't need my money. I'd just move to a game where the devs have a little thing known as talent.
And before I get the typical response of "micro-transactions", probably from the same few pinheads in this thread who claim micro-transactions are "innovative", micro-transactions have been around for years in asian countries where developers have to settle for nickels and dimes from impoverished player populations, which is why most asian games are running the same engines/software that they've been running for 10+ years.
Make a shitty or outdated game, or make a game in a country with a populaion with little to no disposable income, micro-transactions are your only option.
Make a good game with at least current gen software and tech in areas where people actually have money, and you get to ask for monthly subs.
Lidane, I actually made this table specifically with you in mind, and I do not think you dispute it. What you describe as "over-thinking" is simple analysis for me. Although I am confident in saying you are a very bright person in real-life, you are not a very sophisticated gamer. Sophisticated in terms of discerning and appreciating depth in Quests, customization features to creating/developing a character, world diversity, varied gameplay options, and certainly innovative elements.
Spare me the high minded language and the insults to my intelligence. You're little more than a drama queen who gets off on bullet pointed lists and on acting like your opinion is so much better than anyone else's because you're supposedly some sort of "immersion" gamer, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.
I've been playing MMO's since EQ launched. After 10 years in this genre, I'm tired of games with bright ideas that have shitty execution and even less polish. I would rather see a well made, but simpler game that keeps my interest for a while and which is enjoyable rather than waste my time pining for the fjords of "innovation" while playing a lousy game. I know that offends your delicate sensibilities, but that's how it is.
I can appreciate depth in quests. LOTRO has that in spades. Character customization? O HAI, City of Heroes/Villains. World diversity, gameplay options, etc? Those exist in plenty of games. You're just so stuck on being a poor, downtrodden "immersion" gamer with all these whiny threads of yours about how no one caters to your narrow tastes while at the same time ignoring the suggestions of other posters that you don't bother to see what's right in front of you.
MMO's haven't been about deep player immersion and making your own way in a virtual world in years. The whole motto of EQ was "You're in OUR world now". It was THEIR game, their design, their quests, their lore, etc. Players just existed in that world. They never controlled it or had any real impact on it. EQ's game design became so successful that every game that's come out since EQ has only alleviated some of the harsher mechanics (i.e., pointless time sinks, harsh death penalties, spawn camping, etc.) but the basic framework of the games has been the same.
You want deep immersion and all the things in your little bullet pointed lists and tables? Play single player games where you directly affect the world and the outcome. Or hell, get out of the house and find people to LARP with. One of my gamer friends doesn't play RPG's of any kind. Why? Because he goes out every weekend and does what he calls "living history", such as WW1 re-enactments with a group where they haul gear on their backs, live in tents, eat the foods of the time, and otherwise try and actively simulate what life was really like for those soldiers, and they stay in character while they do it. That's far more immersive than any game he could ever play. Find something like that in your own life. It would be far closer to what you say you want than you'll ever get from an MMO.
As far as innovation goes, there have been some innovative mechanics over the years, but at the end of the day, these games cost millions to make and, for the bigger games, millions to run every month. Bills have to be paid. Any innovations that come out tend to be in terms of game mechanics and technology, not totally reinventing the wheel. Someone mentioned the auto industry earlier in the thread, and I think it's a good comparison. The car was invented over a century ago. The basic idea has stayed the same, but the innovations that have come after it have been in terms of newer, better technology. Telephones? Same thing. Over the 100+ years since Alexander Graham Bell, the basic idea of the phone is the same (i.e., talking to someone who's far away), but the technology surrounding the phone has dramatically changed. Airplanes? Same thing.
You're demanding that the wheel be completely reinvented, and that's simply not going to happen, no matter how many bullet points and tables you come up with. You're better off just sticking to single player games where a person can have a much more noticeable impact, or with something else like pen & paper games or LARP.
You know what was a really innovative game was Neverwinter Nights 1 with its platform that allowed for user-generated content, quests, items, NPCs, and even worlds. It was brilliant.
I anticipated Neverwinter Nights 2 to augment these features and make them user-friendly; it actually became the biggest disappointment in my GAMING LIFE how buggy, broken, and unintuitive the tools were. Just a deplorable game.
Vampire: the Masquerade similarly had user-tools to create stories and content.
We need an MMORPG that empowers the player to design worlds, or sections of worlds; these tools must be user-friendly, intuitive, and fun. The customer can create depth, sophistication, and so forth in generating content. Developers do not need the cost and expense then of releasing new content as much. Certainly expansions could be useful in limited respects.
It is high time we take the MMORPG to its next level: player-empowerment with user-created content. Let players generate the depth and sophistication, or the simplicity and easy-mode, that so many yearn for. Everyone, possibly, could be satisfied with this new and innovative MMORPG model.
Ex.: the player not only creates the dragon, but controls the dragon; with its unique attributes, drops, and even story. Ex.: the player not only controls an NPC in town, but created it with its unique attributes, history, and so forth. Ex.: the player acquire materials and literally designs the physical attributes as well as the stats of the items. A new and innovative MMORPG model with user-friendly tools and accessibility.
We have tried, and completed, developer's quests and dungeons and raids. MMORPGs feel the same? Try one in which players actually have the tools, incentive, and fun opportunities to generate DIFFERENT characters, quests, towns, NPCs, dungeons, and worlds.
You mean like Ryzom and CoX.................... and about 10 others.... that you wont play, becouse its not, what ever the fuck you have in your head.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
Immersion Gamer Commercialized Gamer
"Fascinating" "Fun"
Tradition is respected Science is respected
Development is an art Development is a science
Gameplay is varied Gameplay is controlled
Individual gets credit Guild gets credit
Worlds are large and diverse Worlds are small and fixed
Innovation is revered Technology is revered
Character development and story is the goal "Ownage" and accomplishing things is the goal
Complex Simple
I could continue. The problem for us "immersion" gamers, however, is that we are out-numbered - by far. Yet there are more of us than developers would think.
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
Time for new socks boys.....
I'm quite sure i have you both pegged correctly, you just don't want to admit it, thankfully, you're the minority.
Keep on keeping on with the games in your head that NEVER existed.
---------- "Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
The combat system of MMOs has evolved into button mashing. That's evolution. Raiding in MMOs has evolved into something more than just a zerg fest. Those wouldn't be innovations, because they aren't new ideas. We already had combat and raiding in MMOs.
An innovation is Second Life, or what the Sims Online used to be. Not sure which game first. A no combat MMO. Innovation is not always a good thing.
If its the same idea, but a new, better working twist its evolution. If its a totally new idea its innovation.
Payment Schemes = De-evolution We are excited about innovation in this industry, and we want to developers use their collective creative energies to take gameplay to new, different, and fascinating levels. Worlds that feel real not only through the use of technology but by making players a part of it. Player characters with personalities, attributes, and appearances different from all others. Quests that are truly a Quest whose outcome results in something substantial in the world and/or the Hero. Speaking of which, Heroes who are Heroes and not gods. Heroes, together, try to defeat gods; not to become one. And, those who do try to become one, should they succeed, should have unique and difficult challenges. Let's bring life, energy, creativity, and innovation into MMORPG creation again. Let's bring in that spirit of creation that goes hand-in-hand with accomplishment. Yet our accomplishment should not be measured, per se, but how many addicts we have or subscribers but by how truly powerful the MMORPG experience is. The MMORPG industry needs to innovate and create new, and different, experiences in the MMORPG world
As far as manifesto's go, this one is a little sparce. You say you want innovation but what do you mean by that? AOC tried to innovate with it's combat, WAR is trying to innovate (in the same way it did with DAOC) with whole world PVP, EVE is innovating with how much power players have over the persistent world, SWG had a boat load of crafting. Games comming out like Jumpgate and Fallen Earth want to innovate and focus on twitch based combat in an MMO. So pick your poison, which innovation isn't "innovative" enough for you.
You say you want deep thought provoking quests. No you don't, you just want to fight the big baddie at the end. You aren't interested in finding some moral dilema while questing, You aren't willing to consider that maybe the "big baddie" is a good guy, if you're told to kill X or find Y the reason is more often than not inconsequential to you. Every game has lore, but really it's all the same stuff.
As for characters looking unique I think about WOW and it's achievment system, the black proto drake is a pretty unique item that very few people have. Not only that, it's challenging to get that item, is that a sign of someone who's a hero? And on that note your idea of "heroes should have heroic challenges" isn't that really in the hands of the player? I see a lot of players doing things like soloing instances or pulling an absurd amount of mobs and just barely living through it; it's on youtube you should check them out sometime. But those are ways people make names for themselves.
You also have to consider the fact that innovation can often alienate the MMO community. Let's not avoid the elephant in the room; WOW - or maybe more accurately WOW's success- broke MMO's in a big way. By WOW being as successful as it is now all developers can say, "Hey if we can emulate what Bliz did, maybe we can have that fanbase." And in the wake of a poor global economic climate developers need to make a game that makes money (let's not forget that ultimately this is a buisness that needs to make money.) If a company makes a lot of money off of their design then of course that is going to en vogue for a while.
Lastly, and I am sorry about this text wall I laid on you, since you are really looking for innovation I would suggest checking out a game "Love" coming out. I've been following it on massively.com for a while, and while I personally am not too interested in the game, it is drastically from any other MMO concept I've ever seen.
Lastly lastly, I mean it this time, please try to keep your finger on the pulse of the MMO community a bit more before you complain about everything being the same. There is a lot out there for this market, and a little digging will turn up interesting results.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
An innovation is Second Life, or what the Sims Online used to be. Not sure which game first. A no combat MMO. Innovation is not always a good thing.
The Sims Online was first by about a year. While TSO was a great idea in theory, it was ruined by the character skill system, IMO. Players got bonuses and gained skill more quickly based on how many other players nearby were working on the same skill. The end result would be rooms full of people yelling at mirrors to raise Charisma or working out to raise Body while text chatting.
Sure, just like The Sims you could build and furnish your house exactly the way you wanted it, and you could customize you character and change their appearance at will, but the gameplay limitations were just too much. Great idea in theory, but lousy execution, and I say that as a huge fan of the Sims series of games in general.
Comments
I have, however, tried to discuss that innovation in graphics, payment schemes, and so forth is not the kind of innovation that will lead to increased sales.
Innovation with respect to immersion features, on the other hand, will or should result in increased sales.
That is really the whole point: how not to innovate.
Successful Games have to be fun.
Successful Games have to bring something new to the table thats fun,that makes up for all the copy and paste the rest of the game comprises of.
Succesful Games are products, and qaulity counts.Games have to be stable and hassle free,while bringing something new thats fun to the table.
Currently these simple things are beyond the dev teams of present.They think any monkey can win,no monkey ever pays a price for failure,and new suits for the monkeys are core rules of MMO design.
Its not hard to understand why they think and act this way,dinosaurs will after all be dinosaurs.
And so we get new game X, which has the same core mechanics of old game Y,is even easier to "win", and has a new skin.And thats the core of the new game X.
To this core they will add a new idea or two,but spend more energy and effort on hyping the new feature,than making it work in a fun and hassle free manner.
MMOs need a full rewrite, the industry needs a full purge, and the money needs to be directed at talented people putting forth a fun , challenging and hassle free product.
But as it stands now, we have the smeds,brads,gautes,troops,kosters,garriots,etc... Who's only real claims to fame are being able to talk people into giving them money, and being among the first in the industry they have slowly maimed....
Theres little room for new blood, til the old blood gives way.
After they have gone, then their doctrines can be cast aside.Til then, expect the same game youve played before, with new skins and new screwups .Because its all they know.
And as such, each "new" MMO they put out, will have even less ability to hold a customer base than the ones before them,becuase the players have already been there and done that so many times before ,theres too little appeal to hold a players interest.
Guys, this guy confuses "Innovation" with his SUBJECTIVE un-disclosed definition of each thing.
It's pointless to discuss with him. He keeps spouting the same shitt over and over again, you could point him to his dream game that has everything on his LIST that he has posted 20 times now, and it would not fit his criteria.
Because this conversation from post one has been subjective, and he has his fingers in his ears. He dosn't want the things on his list, he wants whats in his head.
Some old, inflated, never existed version of a MMO 10 years dead.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
What don't you understand about my post where I provided specifics where we want and expect innovation (worlds, customization) as opposed to graphics, engines, etc.
I suppose it is finally time that I try Ryzom.
Believe it or not, never tried it.
You didn't post specifics. Ever. If your list was specific, then you would be enjoying the games we keep recommending.
You never tried ryzom, yet my post with a list of games the DO have innovation, is ignored. And you make a thread calming mater of factually that no games innovate anymore.
You picking up on the irony yet?
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
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Possibly.
The industry appears strongly inbred, where the only people who seem to be able to get into it are the ones who are rabid supporters of the existing games. The independent developers provide some hope of end-running that situation if it is actually in place.
An alternative explanation is that the guys writing the checks just can't see the value in fooling around with large scale experiments that are likely to get them fired after they blow $50 million of their company's money.
Then there's the theory that the resource requirements are just too great for any sort of significant 'advance' in MMO gaming. Too many servers, too much network bandwidth, too great a demand on databases, etc.
I'm a bit surprised that we don't see more small experiments being published by companies to try out single player experiences before trying to incorporate them into MMO titles. Even simple flash games would permit game systems to be tried out.
Heck, Blizzard has tens of millions of people that they could invite into single player experiences that use all the content that they've already downloaded onto client computers. Why not try out a single-player sword crafting, fishing or juggling game? Just to see if the simple experience is interesting to anyone.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
You know what was a really innovative game was Neverwinter Nights 1 with its platform that allowed for user-generated content, quests, items, NPCs, and even worlds. It was brilliant.
I anticipated Neverwinter Nights 2 to augment these features and make them user-friendly; it actually became the biggest disappointment in my GAMING LIFE how buggy, broken, and unintuitive the tools were. Just a deplorable game.
Vampire: the Masquerade similarly had user-tools to create stories and content.
We need an MMORPG that empowers the player to design worlds, or sections of worlds; these tools must be user-friendly, intuitive, and fun. The customer can create depth, sophistication, and so forth in generating content.
Developers do not need the cost and expense then of releasing new content as much.
Certainly expansions could be useful in limited respects.
It is high time we take the MMORPG to its next level: player-empowerment with user-created content. Let players generate the depth and sophistication, or the simplicity and easy-mode, that so many yearn for. Everyone, possibly, could be satisfied with this new and innovative MMORPG model.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
Heck, Blizzard has tens of millions of people that they could invite into single player experiences that use all the content that they've already downloaded onto client computers. Why not try out a single-player sword crafting, fishing or juggling game? Just to see if the simple experience is interesting to anyone.
Blizzard does not have to fool around with single player experiments when they have a massive MMO where they can do experiments in. They have been trying a lot of new ideas and concepts in WoW that I am sure they will expand on in their new MMOs. Daily quests, vehicle combat, achievement based progression, heroic modes, loot tokens are all new ways of providing content that they have been trying and experimenting with. Those that prove successfull they expand on and are sure to use in a future MMO they develop.
What he said.
I honestly don't care about innovation as much as I care about fun and polish. If the game is done well and I enjoy it, that's all that matters.
Is This Really an Immersion Gamer v. Commercialized Gamer Discussion?
I could continue. The problem for us "immersion" gamers, however, is that we are out-numbered - by far. Yet there are more of us than developers would think.
You should have left it without the second edit. You were on target with the "immersion gamer" comment. The masses of people who play the mainstream MMORPG titles are not dumb. They simply don't care to invest of their energies in MMORPGs as much as you. You want immersion, difficulty, challenge and so forth. They want to bonk monsters on the head and see what pops out. They save their energies for the challenge and immersion of family, job or whatever other hobby that they're most enthusiastic about.
It works out that there are vastly more people who want to bonk monsters than want to be immersed in the sorts of virtual environments that MMORPGs present.
"Immersion gamer" is also, subjective. Untill he defines it, with out opinion, its irrelevent to keep saying it.
Having read his posts before, i think i can safely define it, this is also why its pointless to discuss with him.
Here is his deffinition:
What we have, is a clear case of rose colored glasses.
First, I'm not "taking up" for the guy you are professing to know what exactly he wants. I don't know him. I'm just addressing your assumptions. I consider myself an immersion gamer if the alternative is what we've been getting lately (post 2004) with respect to large capital MMO developers.
1) Must take huge amounts of time: You can try to make this out in a negative manner if you like, but the non-immersion games (such as WoW for argument's sake) originally took some of the longest times for certain content. I don't think there was any content in UO or AC that took 4 hours of Texas two-stepping to do. I guess the raiding in EQ did, from what I've heard. I never got past level 30 in EQ.
What I, as an "immersion gamer" want to see are some aspects/content that take a dedicated sit-down of an hour or two. Notice I didn't say everything. Today, however, the vast majority of "content" (as there is hardly anything else to do but combat, combat, combat) is in 15-20 minutes spurts. Just a preference, sure. But having the option of both isn't really there these days.
2) Must play like work: Ok, this comment is about as bad as not having a point in a debate and applying Godwin's Law to the first aspect of your opponents view that you can. There is absolutly nothing, nothing wrong with wanting a game or some content that you have to actually sit down and focus attention to. If you had played UO or AC you'd know that.
3) Accessibility is hand holding in the method companies are applying it today. Players really don't have to think or analyze or otherwise mobilize the grey matter when playing. Quest givers have icons over their heads, quest locations are marked with big colorful icons on your game map and radar. You really don't have to put any effort in doing anything as you other than pointing your character in the "laser marked" direction and hitting numlock. Who cares if you die, you don't lose anything, not even time with the prevalence of spawn locations these days. Heck, dying may get you closer to your destination!
4) Amount of time = Challenge. No, not totally. But time does play an equal parts factor in overall challenge. Do deny that is, in my opinion, being unreasonable.
5) Social aspects must be forced by intentionally creating/not including useful systems, such as auction houses or other systems that understand the current majority of MMO players do not have 8 hours a day to dedicate.: Again, comments like this make me believe you never played UO or AC. It never, never took 8 hours to find what I needed in UO from a player vendor. Heck, the longest time I can remember off the top of my head was 2 1/2 hours, and it was because I was being miserly and wanted to comparison shop. And what most people so conveniently leave out of that discussion is that once you find a vendor who has the stuff you need at a price you're comfprtable paying, you're set.
It isn't "rose colored glasses". It's more I played the game and found out what I like. I'm sure you wouldn't like others making such comments about your likes based on your past experiences. It's a crass thing to do at best. Fast food, fast cars, fast gratification: It's no secret that the majority of the world loves "easy mode". There are, however, plenty of gamers out there who aren't adverse to and really enjoy a game that allows them meaningful opportunities to invest their hobby time.
Most people who enjoy such just want a top notch, top quality, top mmo developer to put something out there like they did in the first generation for us. Personally, I've never once wanted the "accessible game" to stop being made for you guys. I just don't enjoy it myself, and want "my kind" of game made too. Having viable choices is a good thing.
I wasn't going to make another post in this thread, but yours was well thought out enough to do so.
Sadly, my only response is, Modern MMO's already offer the things your looking for. As a majority of its content, no. But it is there, i hate to bring up LOTRO again, but they have everything your listing. Most of them do. You just keep the glasses on, and claim they do not.
I just did an instance the other night, took 2 hours with a full group.
Some of this, is also boiling down to "Get off my lawn".
I did play UO, and AC. UO was not a DIKU, AC was second gen, also, not pure DIKU. EQ was first (Pure DIKU). You didn't get past 30, in EQ. Its like, my point is being echoed.
I don't profess to know, i said i felt it was safe for me to define it, nothing you posted counted that, in fact, you solidified it with rationalization.
And I'd agree that "modern" MMOs offer it in so much as after a day or week what they do offer is used up. You mention LOTRO. I've played it (heck, was in the beta), taking my Dwarf Minstrel to max level (before MoM) and mastered weaponsmithing. All the time playing it I had the overwhelming sensation of being led from area to area by my nose. It is rail content based, in large part due to the book quests. That, to me, is not appealing, and is in large part why I left.
As for not getting past 30 in EQ, I think it best you ask me why I didn't instead of making your assumption. Granted, I left it open for you to make an assumption which makes a culprit in part. I stopped at 30 because all but 2 of my friends had left the game to play something else and the 2 that were left were many levels ahead of me. I left to join my friends in other games. Not because I didn't enjoy EQ. And EQ was a game that factored in playing with friends to it's challenge rating.
I don't believe I solidified your point as much as showed that these "immersion gamers" aren't the extremist being on the whole that what the devs to show up and stab us with a sword if we die in game as the majority of people out there try to portray us. Yes, we want a more time consuming game. Yes, there are responsible fun ways to do it. The part that caused me to respond to your poat, which you have since thrown out again, is the rose-colored glasses part. It's fine if you didn't like it, but trying to belittle others with such comments as if they don't know what they enjoyed, as I said, it's crass at best and certainly takes away from any point you were attempting to make.
This genre could benefit from having more choice. That choice being what's currently being rolled out as well as games that are a little more sim/time-consuming/world>game, games.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
You're seriously overthinking all of this.
Also, if you really want to immerse yourself in a world, try LARPing or go work at a Renaissance Faire. MMO's haven't been about a player fully immersing themselves in a fully realized world since EQ overtook UO all those years ago and became the dominant game style.
I think its just getting way to simple.
Its like your riding on those lame car rides at an amusement park that are on rails. Except now they have made the car much more awesome. But the fact of the matter is your still on a rail when it comes to newer games like WoW.
Lidane, I actually made this table specifically with you in mind, and I do not think you dispute it. What you describe as "over-thinking" is simple analysis for me. Although I am confident in saying you are a very bright person in real-life, you are not a very sophisticated gamer. Sophisticated in terms of discerning and appreciating depth in Quests, customization features to creating/developing a character, world diversity, varied gameplay options, and certainly innovative elements.
Lidane said,
"I don't care about innovation. . . . I care about fun and polish."
It is not that your priority is wrong, it is that it is too simple: fun and polish.
I, too, want fun and polish, but I also want and expect more.
You demonstrate my point precisely, which is why I distinguished commercialized gamers and immersion gamers after reading your post. Commercialized gamers have simple and low standards, and typically get even less than that.
EDIT/ASIDE: I am watching Walter Isaacson on Einstein here, and there is a theme of science v. religion. In the MMORPG industry, there is a struggle, happening NOW, involving commercialized gamers v. immersion gamers, and make no doubt about it your side is winning. It is a divide. Similar to how religion was forced-fed in school, we immersion gamers are being forced-fed raiding, PvP, linear content, limited and fixed worlds, and so forth. Return to the roots of MMORPGs, bring back the roleplay element, but introduce innovative features. It is exploring new, fascinating, and bizarre worlds and taking the MMORPG experience to a greater level using innovation elements in content to customization to new tools.
Without making innovation a goal in the development of MMORPGs, the creative process is lost and blind.
Why should I pay a company a fee to play content made by other players?
I should then be paying the players who made the content. And I'll be damned if I'm cutting a hundred different checks evey month.
So, no. If the developer can't make enough viable content on their own, then they don't need my money. I'd just move to a game where the devs have a little thing known as talent.
And before I get the typical response of "micro-transactions", probably from the same few pinheads in this thread who claim micro-transactions are "innovative", micro-transactions have been around for years in asian countries where developers have to settle for nickels and dimes from impoverished player populations, which is why most asian games are running the same engines/software that they've been running for 10+ years.
Make a shitty or outdated game, or make a game in a country with a populaion with little to no disposable income, micro-transactions are your only option.
Make a good game with at least current gen software and tech in areas where people actually have money, and you get to ask for monthly subs.
Spare me the high minded language and the insults to my intelligence. You're little more than a drama queen who gets off on bullet pointed lists and on acting like your opinion is so much better than anyone else's because you're supposedly some sort of "immersion" gamer, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.
I've been playing MMO's since EQ launched. After 10 years in this genre, I'm tired of games with bright ideas that have shitty execution and even less polish. I would rather see a well made, but simpler game that keeps my interest for a while and which is enjoyable rather than waste my time pining for the fjords of "innovation" while playing a lousy game. I know that offends your delicate sensibilities, but that's how it is.
I can appreciate depth in quests. LOTRO has that in spades. Character customization? O HAI, City of Heroes/Villains. World diversity, gameplay options, etc? Those exist in plenty of games. You're just so stuck on being a poor, downtrodden "immersion" gamer with all these whiny threads of yours about how no one caters to your narrow tastes while at the same time ignoring the suggestions of other posters that you don't bother to see what's right in front of you.
MMO's haven't been about deep player immersion and making your own way in a virtual world in years. The whole motto of EQ was "You're in OUR world now". It was THEIR game, their design, their quests, their lore, etc. Players just existed in that world. They never controlled it or had any real impact on it. EQ's game design became so successful that every game that's come out since EQ has only alleviated some of the harsher mechanics (i.e., pointless time sinks, harsh death penalties, spawn camping, etc.) but the basic framework of the games has been the same.
You want deep immersion and all the things in your little bullet pointed lists and tables? Play single player games where you directly affect the world and the outcome. Or hell, get out of the house and find people to LARP with. One of my gamer friends doesn't play RPG's of any kind. Why? Because he goes out every weekend and does what he calls "living history", such as WW1 re-enactments with a group where they haul gear on their backs, live in tents, eat the foods of the time, and otherwise try and actively simulate what life was really like for those soldiers, and they stay in character while they do it. That's far more immersive than any game he could ever play. Find something like that in your own life. It would be far closer to what you say you want than you'll ever get from an MMO.
As far as innovation goes, there have been some innovative mechanics over the years, but at the end of the day, these games cost millions to make and, for the bigger games, millions to run every month. Bills have to be paid. Any innovations that come out tend to be in terms of game mechanics and technology, not totally reinventing the wheel. Someone mentioned the auto industry earlier in the thread, and I think it's a good comparison. The car was invented over a century ago. The basic idea has stayed the same, but the innovations that have come after it have been in terms of newer, better technology. Telephones? Same thing. Over the 100+ years since Alexander Graham Bell, the basic idea of the phone is the same (i.e., talking to someone who's far away), but the technology surrounding the phone has dramatically changed. Airplanes? Same thing.
You're demanding that the wheel be completely reinvented, and that's simply not going to happen, no matter how many bullet points and tables you come up with. You're better off just sticking to single player games where a person can have a much more noticeable impact, or with something else like pen & paper games or LARP.
You mean like Ryzom and CoX.................... and about 10 others.... that you wont play, becouse its not, what ever the fuck you have in your head.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
This list is a bunch of jaded bullshit. Sorry, calls it like i see it. Its funny, you guys were saying i'm crass, and that invalidates my points, take a look at this. This entire thread, and the two main (and just about oly) supporters of this completely made up term "Immersion gamer", are simply here to belittle the majority of gamers who do not want "CASASSING, LIFE SUCKING, TIME CONSUMING, I HAVE NOTHING IN MY LIFE OTHER THAN MMO's" bullshit, 10 year old game play.
Time for new socks boys.....
I'm quite sure i have you both pegged correctly, you just don't want to admit it, thankfully, you're the minority.
Keep on keeping on with the games in your head that NEVER existed.
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"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
A few points.
Innovation != Evolution
The combat system of MMOs has evolved into button mashing. That's evolution. Raiding in MMOs has evolved into something more than just a zerg fest. Those wouldn't be innovations, because they aren't new ideas. We already had combat and raiding in MMOs.
An innovation is Second Life, or what the Sims Online used to be. Not sure which game first. A no combat MMO. Innovation is not always a good thing.
If its the same idea, but a new, better working twist its evolution. If its a totally new idea its innovation.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
As far as manifesto's go, this one is a little sparce. You say you want innovation but what do you mean by that? AOC tried to innovate with it's combat, WAR is trying to innovate (in the same way it did with DAOC) with whole world PVP, EVE is innovating with how much power players have over the persistent world, SWG had a boat load of crafting. Games comming out like Jumpgate and Fallen Earth want to innovate and focus on twitch based combat in an MMO. So pick your poison, which innovation isn't "innovative" enough for you.
You say you want deep thought provoking quests. No you don't, you just want to fight the big baddie at the end. You aren't interested in finding some moral dilema while questing, You aren't willing to consider that maybe the "big baddie" is a good guy, if you're told to kill X or find Y the reason is more often than not inconsequential to you. Every game has lore, but really it's all the same stuff.
As for characters looking unique I think about WOW and it's achievment system, the black proto drake is a pretty unique item that very few people have. Not only that, it's challenging to get that item, is that a sign of someone who's a hero? And on that note your idea of "heroes should have heroic challenges" isn't that really in the hands of the player? I see a lot of players doing things like soloing instances or pulling an absurd amount of mobs and just barely living through it; it's on youtube you should check them out sometime. But those are ways people make names for themselves.
You also have to consider the fact that innovation can often alienate the MMO community. Let's not avoid the elephant in the room; WOW - or maybe more accurately WOW's success- broke MMO's in a big way. By WOW being as successful as it is now all developers can say, "Hey if we can emulate what Bliz did, maybe we can have that fanbase." And in the wake of a poor global economic climate developers need to make a game that makes money (let's not forget that ultimately this is a buisness that needs to make money.) If a company makes a lot of money off of their design then of course that is going to en vogue for a while.
Lastly, and I am sorry about this text wall I laid on you, since you are really looking for innovation I would suggest checking out a game "Love" coming out. I've been following it on massively.com for a while, and while I personally am not too interested in the game, it is drastically from any other MMO concept I've ever seen.
Lastly lastly, I mean it this time, please try to keep your finger on the pulse of the MMO community a bit more before you complain about everything being the same. There is a lot out there for this market, and a little digging will turn up interesting results.
Originally posted by GTwander:
How are you an MMO? Or any of us for that matter?
I say we strike all users from the site for not being MMOs.
거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다
The Sims Online was first by about a year. While TSO was a great idea in theory, it was ruined by the character skill system, IMO. Players got bonuses and gained skill more quickly based on how many other players nearby were working on the same skill. The end result would be rooms full of people yelling at mirrors to raise Charisma or working out to raise Body while text chatting.
Sure, just like The Sims you could build and furnish your house exactly the way you wanted it, and you could customize you character and change their appearance at will, but the gameplay limitations were just too much. Great idea in theory, but lousy execution, and I say that as a huge fan of the Sims series of games in general.