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You can build a themepark inside of a sandbox, it doesn't have to be either or.
Ihmotepp
Member Posts: 14,495
It's entirely feasible to build a themepark inside of a sandbox. I don't know why people seem to think it must be either or.
You would do this by designing a meta game. A game that is all about controlling the game world, played long term, and large scale.
Underneath this would exist a themepark with quests, loot, grinding, crafting, etc.
Someone wanting to play the sandbox content would become involved in the meta game. Someone uninterested in the sandbox could play the themepark, and not even realize the sandbox existed.
Take WoW, put it inside of EVE. May sound confusing or counterintuitive, but I don't see why you couldn't do it.
Comments
The newly introduced Epic Mission Arcs in Eve-Online are exactly this
i agree 110% percent but thats like....work. im not sure of any devs that have patience for that.
Now if you could be a person, didn't have to be a spaceship, and the game was based on the ground instead of space, they'd really have something.
Wasnt the Reb and Imperial themeparks, then later force sesitive village in SWG a better example, and older to boot?
- Syn
To do this there has to be a "side" that you can actually win with. Think about WoW on this one, where you have Alliance, and Horde. Players would be able to leave Horde to join Alliance, and the other way around. Also, they could leave both behind and make THEIR OWN SIDE. The "Zeno's uberguild of ASSUM" side would be able to war the Horde and kill Thrall (without fully destorying the Horde), or they can war "UbER GUILD 5" and destroy their city/nation, or take over whats left of their city. Alliance and Horde would continue to fight each other as is.
I think the above game I just described would be a WoW killer. Theme park within a sandbox.
The definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over expecting different results.
Themepark inside a sandbox?
The universe would stop.
Now if you could be a person, didn't have to be a spaceship, and the game was based on the ground instead of space, they'd really have something.
...and combat wasn't a substitute for Niquil. With Eve it doesn't matter what epic mission they add. You're still trapped in a spaceship with point and click movement and /orbit target with autofire. Sleep inducing is an understatement.
Yes you can build a themepark inside a sandbox... it's called Las Vegas.
Themeparks are for little kids and sandboxes are for... no, wait.
Thats what I've been saying, theres no excuse to have no content inside a sandbox game, just an excuse developers use to why theres nothing to do in the game but stand around all day and talk.
Now if you could be a person, didn't have to be a spaceship, and the game was based on the ground instead of space, they'd really have something.
...and combat wasn't a substitute for Niquil. With Eve it doesn't matter what epic mission they add. You're still trapped in a spaceship with point and click movement and /orbit target with autofire. Sleep inducing is an understatement.
To Josher: I agree with you, but the sucky combat and movement system has hardly anything to do with Eve being a sandboxy game.
I don't even care if I play a spaceship or some virtual moron as long as its good and exciting. I've yet to see a good sandbox-heavy game. Not some overgrown chatroom.
So sandbox MMOs should focus more on the game and less on the "hardcore" nuisances. -No wait... Does that make it a themepark?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
What defines a sandbox is the presence of tools and mechanics that allow players to build and manage the world around them. What defines a theme park is the presence of 'rides' and guided experience.
You refer to sandbox games as an 'overgrown chatroom' and say they should 'focus more on the game', but for most players looking for a good sandbox, less guided game and more ability to create the game is a selling point.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Can't really name a mmo comparison of this, but in single player games there are a few. GTA and Oblivion for example. GTA is often called a sandbox, but despite the fact that you can go around your own way and tackle content as you see fit, there is a storyline arc and progression path. You could call GTA a big themepark surrounded by a sandbox.
Oblivion is also called a sandbox by many, but actually the game has many storyline arcs within it, and while you can choose who you do missions for, each questarc is within itself a themepark. You could call Oblivion a big sandbox with hundreds of little themeparks hidden within it.
What defines a sandbox is the presence of tools and mechanics that allow players to build and manage the world around them. What defines a theme park is the presence of 'rides' and guided experience.
You refer to sandbox games as an 'overgrown chatroom' and say they should 'focus more on the game', but for most players looking for a good sandbox, less guided game and more ability to create the game is a selling point.
This is a double edged sword. The presence of tools and mechanics, without much else, can be seen in two ways. It can be seen as the possibility to create endless content. It can also be seen as an utter lack of content. Neither view is more correct than the other, and both are correct.
You mean I have to create the content with tools and mechanics? Well, then that means there is no content. Or, you mean I get to create the content with the tools and mechanics? Wow, I'll be endlessly entertained!
There is no reason you can't satisfy both players in the same game.
The tools and mechanics would allow you to build grand structures like seige engines, bridges, open tunnels or dungeons, control territory, gain new abilities for your entire realm, clan, guild, and so forth, or to defeat these same activitiies performed by your enemies. This would require complex planning and organization.
But the elements of these tasks could be comprised in part by doing quests with your basic fedex, kill x, or gathering materials, crafting small items that are needed, camping mobs for materials or a required kill number on a world wide basis, and things like that which make up your basic theme park ride. Which rides players go on, and how the rewards, materials, and crafted items these rides produce are used, would determine which larger goals could be accomplished.
The meta game would look like A+B+C = desired result in change in game world.
Each component would look like this:
A is accomplished by doing 1+2+3+4+5, all basic themepark sorts of things, in part or entirely. Organizing the accomplishmento of all the elements for A,B, and C could be a huge complex undertaking. And, it would involve making the decision that this is the way to go, instead of doing D+E+F to get a different desired result.
But someone doing activity number 1, which is just a small element of accomplishing overall goal A, may just be having fun doing a fed x quest, and have no idea of the overall arching objective.
What are you guys talking about?
Do you really think a game like Eve is light on content? is that a joke? Not liking the Dev decision of making a in spaceship game with RTS hybrid combat doesnt mean there's no content.
How do Sandbox games have no content?
They have Missions/Quests, Dungeons, A full game world to explore, A more robust Character development system, Crafting and economy thats actually meaningful.
It's all there already guys! What do you want a NPC sitting on your ass pointing to everything you could do in a specific order?
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
EVE has the PVP and the market but it doesn't have the PVE which we refer to as the content. You can say Epic Mission Arcs all you like but when I did them it was just the same old missions with abit of text and so boring. The problem I have with EVE is gaining money is so boring and built on doing mindless reptitive tasks and theres no content to make it fun.
You say noone to point you in a direction but how is having quests and things going to do that? In Star Wars Galaxies there were quests and it had no effect on the game. You just did them because they were fun to do and having quests and npc's and Dungeons were fun things within the world.
What defines a sandbox is the presence of tools and mechanics that allow players to build and manage the world around them. What defines a theme park is the presence of 'rides' and guided experience.
You refer to sandbox games as an 'overgrown chatroom' and say they should 'focus more on the game', but for most players looking for a good sandbox, less guided game and more ability to create the game is a selling point.
This is a double edged sword. The presence of tools and mechanics, without much else, can be seen in two ways. It can be seen as the possibility to create endless content. It can also be seen as an utter lack of content. Neither view is more correct than the other, and both are correct.
You mean I have to create the content with tools and mechanics? Well, then that means there is no content. Or, you mean I get to create the content with the tools and mechanics? Wow, I'll be endlessly entertained!
There is no reason you can't satisfy both players in the same game.
The tools and mechanics would allow you to build grand structures like seige engines, bridges, open tunnels or dungeons, control territory, gain new abilities for your entire realm, clan, guild, and so forth, or to defeat these same activitiies performed by your enemies. This would require complex planning and organization.
But the elements of these tasks could be comprised in part by doing quests with your basic fedex, kill x, or gathering materials, crafting small items that are needed, camping mobs for materials or a required kill number on a world wide basis, and things like that which make up your basic theme park ride. Which rides players go on, and how the rewards, materials, and crafted items these rides produce are used, would determine which larger goals could be accomplished.
The meta game would look like A+B+C = desired result in change in game world.
Each component would look like this:
A is accomplished by doing 1+2+3+4+5, all basic themepark sorts of things, in part or entirely. Organizing the accomplishmento of all the elements for A,B, and C could be a huge complex undertaking. And, it would involve making the decision that this is the way to go, instead of doing D+E+F to get a different desired result.
But someone doing activity number 1, which is just a small element of accomplishing overall goal A, may just be having fun doing a fed x quest, and have no idea of the overall arching objective.
The problem is you can't create the content, only the developers can do that. You get given all the mechanics but nothing to do with them other than stand around all day and kill people over and over again and it not have any real meaning. If they let me model my own armour or create my own dungeons then yeah that would be creating the content.
Actually you can build as many themeparks as you have development time for inside of a single sandbox. This is the single greatest feature of the sandbox framework. It's flexibility. A single sandbox game has the potential to be many times greater than any linear themepark game can hope to be. This is because you can actually incorporate several linear themeparks into a single sandbox framework. If only the game companies (Well besides Bethesda and CCP) could figure this out.
Bren
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I agree. But then, I have said so myself a dozen times. But as with many things, people seem to think is extremes and absolutes usually. Why the heck ever, but of course a game can be both. If devs want to make it. Only in some peoples mind it doesnt work. I would like to see a game that is both! I am really tired of narrowed down gameplay.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Themepark design is unnecessary. You can design a world with possible goals (i.e., attain high level, go after Epic drops, crafting, etc.) without railroading players down the paths to such goal.
The very worst game designs are heavy-duty themeparks which railroad players down the paths of easy rewards. Such game play feels forced and meaningless.
And yes, I am talking about WOW, AOC, WAR, and a host of other games, some of which have been undeservedly successful despite, not because of, their themepark designs.
This depends on what you consider "content".
In WoW, the majority of the content is created by the developers, in other words teh quests, mobs to grind, raids, crafting, etc.
In EVE most players consider the biggest part of the "content" to be the rivalries between competing corporations, and the politics that go on inside each corporation.This is all created by the players, not the devs.
Do I want the players designing the rules of the game, or making the quests, designing the mobs? No, absolutely not. That doesn't mean they can't create content.
I disagree.
Anyway... can quote your comment on my sign? is totally awesome :-)
What defines a sandbox is the presence of tools and mechanics that allow players to build and manage the world around them. What defines a theme park is the presence of 'rides' and guided experience.
You refer to sandbox games as an 'overgrown chatroom' and say they should 'focus more on the game', but for most players looking for a good sandbox, less guided game and more ability to create the game is a selling point.
This is a double edged sword. The presence of tools and mechanics, without much else, can be seen in two ways. It can be seen as the possibility to create endless content. It can also be seen as an utter lack of content. Neither view is more correct than the other, and both are correct.
Agreed. That is why I did not touch the content topic. It was also irrelevant to the discussion.
There is no reason you can't satisfy both players in the same game.
It depends on the game. Among today's players, most seem to play themepark MMOs when they want to be entertained rather than when they want to create or entertain. They also seem to play themepark games when they do not want to deal with outside influences affecting their gameplay. Whereas a person in a 'sandbox' state of mind can have fun in a theme park area, someone in a 'theme park' state of mind would probably find it annoying to be subjected to the rules, obstructions and mechanizations of the other players.
An example of where something like that would work is if you built some insulated environment where little that happens there affects the game world. If it does affect the rest of the game world, but is not subjected to the risks and repercussions of the same actions outside the insulated environment, the playerbase will have great issue with it.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Puzzle Pirates lets players lay out their towns, set taxes, and run their islands. When a new server opens up, it is player-created islands that are used.
COx has a new Architect feature, no?
ATITD allows players to create laws that actually affect and change the mechanics and the physics of the game.
MetaPlace.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Making mobs is not a bad idea actually. Say your guild owns a castle, then you should be able to create your guards and NPC, within certain rules of course but it would be intresting and fit both in a sandbox and a themepark MMO.
Quests is harder, it is possible to have certain player made quests but the system demands a lot of work, CoX is trying it out right now and so far it needs a lot of work.
That would take years and years added onto the already long development time of a normal MMORPG. I agree it can be done, but I don't see it ever being done because it is too much work, time, and money. Most industries are out to flip a quick profit and then use that to start development on the new MMO to flip a profit while continuing to have the steady income of the previous one. It kind of works like real estate IMO.