Why I, as a fan of the franchise, was sorely disappointed.

leshtricity · May 2009

We all know how important D&D has been to not just the MMO(RPG) genre but also gaming itself. So why was this hallmark franchise tarnished, in my mind, by Turbine? Who at WotC signed off on this idea? I know so-called "roll" playing has been part of games like this forever, but seriously, what happened to actual, sincere, genuine ROLE-playing?

All Turbine did was make a glorified dungeon crawler. The dungeon-crawling is good, I give it that. I enjoyed most of the instances in the game. But it wasn't D&D. And seriously people, Eberron? Why not a time-tested and proven setting like the Realms, or Dragonlance?

As a D&D game, I was expecting utilities, tools, avenues or what have you, for role-playing, storytelling, and immersion. Nothing like that really exists in the game. I can't sit down at a tavern. I can't drink and eat. I can't rent a room, or travel to a different region with my mates. All I can do is run around Stormreach and...crawl dungeons.

I do concede that the game emulates the prototypical dungeon crawl very well, but any fan of D&D will know what I mean when I say that is really only half of the game. As a Dungeon Master (yeah, what's it to you?) I absolutely love creating a great story and plot for my players and sprinkling in things that don't just make the campaign compelling, but adds to it a level of immersion that some of my players didn't know existed in pen-and-paper games. I've run games and been in games and groups where I felt as immersed as I would reading a really great book. I'm sorry, but without the immersion, I just can't dig it.

As I said, I understand the appeal of the game, but it's a terrible waste of the franchise and IP as a whole.

Bahbus · May 2009

Well...that's really all they wanted to do with it. They are the DM and they want you to play in their storyline. Why Eberron? No clue. Perhaps because it tends to be one of the least used settings. Turbine wanted to make D&D Online easy to pick up and play without knowing anything about how D&D works. That was the whole point. You, on the other hand, really want that role to play. The only way you'll have that is pen and paper. Though, if you like the 4E stuff, then perhaps the online gametable that WotC is developing might work out for you. I know the Character Builder is superb, so I expect the rest of their stuff to be high-quailty as well.

Rokurgepta · May 2009

Originally posted by Bahbus

Well...that's really all they wanted to do with it. They are the DM and they want you to play in their storyline. Why Eberron? No clue. Perhaps because it tends to be one of the least used settings. Turbine wanted to make D&D Online easy to pick up and play without knowing anything about how D&D works. That was the whole point. You, on the other hand, really want that role to play. The only way you'll have that is pen and paper. Though, if you like the 4E stuff, then perhaps the online gametable that WotC is developing might work out for you. I know the Character Builder is superb, so I expect the rest of their stuff to be high-quailty as well.

The only problem is DDO failed to make it easy to pick up and play if you do not understand D&D. The game has a pretty steep learning curve and can harshly penalize the casual player not familiar with D&D as you can really screw up a character and Turbine has no respec ability. So you could spend quite some time in game before knowing you blew it early in the creation process.

Rokurgepta · May 2009

Originally posted by leshtricity

We all know how important D&D has been to not just the MMO(RPG) genre but also gaming itself. So why was this hallmark franchise tarnished, in my mind, by Turbine? Who at WotC signed off on this idea? I know so-called "roll" playing has been part of games like this forever, but seriously, what happened to actual, sincere, genuine ROLE-playing?
All Turbine did was make a glorified dungeon crawler. The dungeon-crawling is good, I give it that. I enjoyed most of the instances in the game. But it wasn't D&D. And seriously people, Eberron? Why not a time-tested and proven setting like the Realms, or Dragonlance?
As a D&D game, I was expecting utilities, tools, avenues or what have you, for role-playing, storytelling, and immersion. Nothing like that really exists in the game. I can't sit down at a tavern. I can't drink and eat. I can't rent a room, or travel to a different region with my mates. All I can do is run around Stormreach and...crawl dungeons.
I do concede that the game emulates the prototypical dungeon crawl very well, but any fan of D&D will know what I mean when I say that is really only half of the game. As a Dungeon Master (yeah, what's it to you?) I absolutely love creating a great story and plot for my players and sprinkling in things that don't just make the campaign compelling, but adds to it a level of immersion that some of my players didn't know existed in pen-and-paper games. I've run games and been in games and groups where I felt as immersed as I would reading a really great book. I'm sorry, but without the immersion, I just can't dig it.

As I said, I understand the appeal of the game, but it's a terrible waste of the franchise and IP as a whole.

I always thought it was sad how Turbine took the biggest name in RPG history, the game that is the backbone of most of what came after it in the genre and created a niche MMO. DDO should have been what WOW is population wise.

Sarr · May 2009

Originally posted by leshtricity

We all know how important D&D has been to not just the MMO(RPG) genre but also gaming itself. So why was this hallmark franchise tarnished, in my mind, by Turbine? Who at WotC signed off on this idea? I know so-called "roll" playing has been part of games like this forever, but seriously, what happened to actual, sincere, genuine ROLE-playing?
All Turbine did was make a glorified dungeon crawler. The dungeon-crawling is good, I give it that. I enjoyed most of the instances in the game. But it wasn't D&D. And seriously people, Eberron? Why not a time-tested and proven setting like the Realms, or Dragonlance?
As a D&D game, I was expecting utilities, tools, avenues or what have you, for role-playing, storytelling, and immersion. Nothing like that really exists in the game. I can't sit down at a tavern. I can't drink and eat. I can't rent a room, or travel to a different region with my mates. All I can do is run around Stormreach and...crawl dungeons.
I do concede that the game emulates the prototypical dungeon crawl very well, but any fan of D&D will know what I mean when I say that is really only half of the game. As a Dungeon Master (yeah, what's it to you?) I absolutely love creating a great story and plot for my players and sprinkling in things that don't just make the campaign compelling, but adds to it a level of immersion that some of my players didn't know existed in pen-and-paper games. I've run games and been in games and groups where I felt as immersed as I would reading a really great book. I'm sorry, but without the immersion, I just can't dig it.

As I said, I understand the appeal of the game, but it's a terrible waste of the franchise and IP as a whole.

Hi. As a long time Ad&d and D&D Dunegon Master + player sometimes, I understand you very well. This was exactly my problem with D&D Online at first.

But now I don't think this was or is the waste of IP or franchise. Not at all.

his game is a great dungeon crawler, and not only dungeon crawler - there are open areas since some time. But yes, it's still only and Action-Fantasy MMO with D&D ruleset and feel, Dungeon Master's voice for example, etc. Having said that, I don't believe ANY company would do it better. And I don't think that creating full, role-playing D&D was possible at that time when D&D Online came. Just imagine how complex DDO is now, and how much more complex it would need to be if it was roleplaying game like NwN or Baldur's Gate...

So, if Turbine or any other company decided at that time when DDO came to create "full", roleplaying D&D experience with numerous choices, housing, etc. , I think we'd have a VERY poor and buggy MMO. Nothing so vast and realistic was created to date. Now consider it would need to be on D&D ruleset, have all D&D traits, be fully MMO (not "single player stories at night", like in Age of Conan) and fully RPG... and it should be the best possible. That's really a work for decades of development.

So I think Turbine did well with D&D Online which we have now. I bet that if they'll be allowed to create D&D Online 2, this will be totally stunning game from the start. They have great experience with stability, balance and D&D quirks, as well as engine and all those systems. I think this way - D&D Online is great, but D&D Online 2 will be 10x better from all sides. It's impossible to rewrite whole game now, so let DDO live and prosper for Turbine until DDO 2 comes.

Sarr · May 2009

Originally posted by Rokurgepta
I always thought it was sad how Turbine took the biggest name in RPG history, the game that is the backbone of most of what came after it in the genre and created a niche MMO. DDO should have been what WOW is population wise.

It was IMPOSSIBLE . Just think about it. I explained it in a post above. I'm glad they didn't take the "hard" route, as it would backfire even more.

D&D is very, and I mean very delicate matter. Niche game was much better approach if they wanted or had to stick to the ruleset. Blizzard could do everything and anything they liked, just for the game to work and be fun. Not to mention how long they developed that game, becasue they could - I don't think any other company invested so much in their MMO as Blizz. But they could, as they were "golden hit makers" and very rich & popular already.

Also I don't think any other company would do this game better. I'd rather expect any other big company out there which develops their MMOs would make it a WoW clone which wouldn't be even half as D&D as DDO is now.

I know that some rule-geeks trace every change in rules that Turbine did, but I really praise Turbine for their dedication to stay true to D&D in the rules, in mechanics, not just in the feel. Because we already see what happens -> Warhammer Online has Warhammer feel to it, but nothing more. Would any D&D fan truly want DDO to be done this way? Prettier, easier but not really D&D? I wouldn't and I thank Turbine for what they did and what they do.

I really want to see DDO 2 done by Turbine some day. If WotC would let any other company (obviously without Turbine's experience on DDO 1) do it then... I'd feel like hoping for a miracle, or not even hoping at all.

Why? Because this way you can earn more, and nothing else really matter these days. That's why Turbine is to me absolutely exceptional and the best in what they do. Not perfect, but there's a spirit, not just "money making machine" automaton.

Bahbus · May 2009

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Bahbus

Well...that's really all they wanted to do with it. They are the DM and they want you to play in their storyline. Why Eberron? No clue. Perhaps because it tends to be one of the least used settings. Turbine wanted to make D&D Online easy to pick up and play without knowing anything about how D&D works. That was the whole point. You, on the other hand, really want that role to play. The only way you'll have that is pen and paper. Though, if you like the 4E stuff, then perhaps the online gametable that WotC is developing might work out for you. I know the Character Builder is superb, so I expect the rest of their stuff to be high-quailty as well.

The only problem is DDO failed to make it easy to pick up and play if you do not understand D&D. The game has a pretty steep learning curve and can harshly penalize the casual player not familiar with D&D as you can really screw up a character and Turbine has no respec ability. So you could spend quite some time in game before knowing you blew it early in the creation process.

But that is also the glory of D&D and always has been. The possibility of creating a gimped character!

Anywho, they fixed that by introducing a number of "paths" for different classes. Each class has three different "paths" you can follow, or you can customize you character completely. Everytime you level up, you can choose to stick to your path or deter away from it.

Rokurgepta · May 2009

Originally posted by Bahbus

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Bahbus

Well...that's really all they wanted to do with it. They are the DM and they want you to play in their storyline. Why Eberron? No clue. Perhaps because it tends to be one of the least used settings. Turbine wanted to make D&D Online easy to pick up and play without knowing anything about how D&D works. That was the whole point. You, on the other hand, really want that role to play. The only way you'll have that is pen and paper. Though, if you like the 4E stuff, then perhaps the online gametable that WotC is developing might work out for you. I know the Character Builder is superb, so I expect the rest of their stuff to be high-quailty as well.

The only problem is DDO failed to make it easy to pick up and play if you do not understand D&D. The game has a pretty steep learning curve and can harshly penalize the casual player not familiar with D&D as you can really screw up a character and Turbine has no respec ability. So you could spend quite some time in game before knowing you blew it early in the creation process.

But that is also the glory of D&D and always has been. The possibility of creating a gimped character!

Anywho, they fixed that by introducing a number of "paths" for different classes. Each class has three different "paths" you can follow, or you can customize you character completely. Everytime you level up, you can choose to stick to your path or deter away from it.

That does not in any way fix it. If you are not familiar with D&D rules you can ruin your character and for a casual player that realization can cause them to quit. You understand that people leaving in frustration is bad for Turbine?

People who lack D&D knowledge and experience will not know which route to go.

Rokurgepta · May 2009

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by leshtricity

We all know how important D&D has been to not just the MMO(RPG) genre but also gaming itself. So why was this hallmark franchise tarnished, in my mind, by Turbine? Who at WotC signed off on this idea? I know so-called "roll" playing has been part of games like this forever, but seriously, what happened to actual, sincere, genuine ROLE-playing?
All Turbine did was make a glorified dungeon crawler. The dungeon-crawling is good, I give it that. I enjoyed most of the instances in the game. But it wasn't D&D. And seriously people, Eberron? Why not a time-tested and proven setting like the Realms, or Dragonlance?
As a D&D game, I was expecting utilities, tools, avenues or what have you, for role-playing, storytelling, and immersion. Nothing like that really exists in the game. I can't sit down at a tavern. I can't drink and eat. I can't rent a room, or travel to a different region with my mates. All I can do is run around Stormreach and...crawl dungeons.
I do concede that the game emulates the prototypical dungeon crawl very well, but any fan of D&D will know what I mean when I say that is really only half of the game. As a Dungeon Master (yeah, what's it to you?) I absolutely love creating a great story and plot for my players and sprinkling in things that don't just make the campaign compelling, but adds to it a level of immersion that some of my players didn't know existed in pen-and-paper games. I've run games and been in games and groups where I felt as immersed as I would reading a really great book. I'm sorry, but without the immersion, I just can't dig it.

As I said, I understand the appeal of the game, but it's a terrible waste of the franchise and IP as a whole.

Hi. As a long time Ad&d and D&D Dunegon Master + player sometimes, I understand you very well. This was exactly my problem with D&D Online at first.

But now I don't think this was or is the waste of IP or franchise. Not at all.

his game is a great dungeon crawler, and not only dungeon crawler - there are open areas since some time. But yes, it's still only and Action-Fantasy MMO with D&D ruleset and feel, Dungeon Master's voice for example, etc. Having said that, I don't believe ANY company would do it better. And I don't think that creating full, role-playing D&D was possible at that time when D&D Online came. Just imagine how complex DDO is now, and how much more complex it would need to be if it was roleplaying game like NwN or Baldur's Gate...

So, if Turbine or any other company decided at that time when DDO came to create "full", roleplaying D&D experience with numerous choices, housing, etc. , I think we'd have a VERY poor and buggy MMO. Nothing so vast and realistic was created to date. Now consider it would need to be on D&D ruleset, have all D&D traits, be fully MMO (not "single player stories at night", like in Age of Conan) and fully RPG... and it should be the best possible. That's really a work for decades of development.

So I think Turbine did well with D&D Online which we have now. I bet that if they'll be allowed to create D&D Online 2, this will be totally stunning game from the start. They have great experience with stability, balance and D&D quirks, as well as engine and all those systems. I think this way - D&D Online is great, but D&D Online 2 will be 10x better from all sides. It's impossible to rewrite whole game now, so let DDO live and prosper for Turbine until DDO 2 comes.

I can only hope Turbine does not get to create DDO2. The last thing D&D needs is another tiny game with bad decisions made by poor management over and over. DDO is not a hit and the chances of the same company being allowed to make the sequel are slim and none.

DDO is at times a poor MMO and very buggy. Lets not pretend DDO is perfect and without fault. No one can take you seriously when you act like they send you a check each month.

Rokurgepta · May 2009

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by Rokurgepta
I always thought it was sad how Turbine took the biggest name in RPG history, the game that is the backbone of most of what came after it in the genre and created a niche MMO. DDO should have been what WOW is population wise.

It was IMPOSSIBLE . Just think about it. I explained it in a post above. I'm glad they didn't take the "hard" route, as it would backfire even more.

D&D is very, and I mean very delicate matter. Niche game was much better approach if they wanted or had to stick to the ruleset. Blizzard could do everything and anything they liked, just for the game to work and be fun. Not to mention how long they developed that game, becasue they could - I don't think any other company invested so much in their MMO as Blizz. But they could, as they were "golden hit makers" and very rich & popular already.

Also I don't think any other company would do this game better. I'd rather expect any other big company out there which develops their MMOs would make it a WoW clone which wouldn't be even half as D&D as DDO is now.

I know that some rule-geeks trace every change in rules that Turbine did, but I really praise Turbine for their dedication to stay true to D&D in the rules, in mechanics, not just in the feel. Because we already see what happens -> Warhammer Online has Warhammer feel to it, but nothing more. Would any D&D fan truly want DDO to be done this way? Prettier, easier but not really D&D? I wouldn't and I thank Turbine for what they did and what they do.

I really want to see DDO 2 done by Turbine some day. If WotC would let any other company (obviously without Turbine's experience on DDO 1) do it then... I'd feel like hoping for a miracle, or not even hoping at all.

Why? Because this way you can earn more, and nothing else really matter these days. That's why Turbine is to me absolutely exceptional and the best in what they do. Not perfect, but there's a spirit, not just "money making machine" automaton.

Does Turbine sign your pay check by any chance? The best at what they do? Seriously?

Please actually explain to me why it was ok for Turbine to take THE BIGGEST NAME IN RPG HISTORY and create one of the smallest MMOs still running. Your long winder and rambling post aside you did not actually explain anything, you just praised Turbine as the best in the world like that should be a magic tonic to make us all see things your way.

You say niche game was better if they wanted or had to stick to the ruleset, but they have deviated when needed so please explain how its ok to make changes yet still ok to have made a game that is barely popular enough to stay open and is obviously being developed on a bare bones crew that will be 4 months late when the next mod hits?

markfromindy · May 2009

I had the same frustrations with DDO as some of the other posters. However, there does exist a great solution for people who actually want to have their adventure and role play in an online setting. Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 ( particularly NWN1) are great venues for online gaming. There have been and still are quite a few small scale online persistent world servers about created by and for fans of D&D.

There's a server (or mod that you can host online for play with a small group of friends) to suit just about any playstyle wether it's strict rp, hardcore hack n slash , "social" servers, or combinations of these.

Besides Half Life 1 & 2, the NWN games have been installed on my pc longer than any other games.I strongly suggest everyone to try them out, or if you bought the games, played their lousy buit in stories and expansions, then shelved them, you';re really missing out on some awesome online user created content and downloadable modules.All for the low low price of free.

Dreamion · May 2009

You love creating stories, well pretty much every mmorpg i've played out there doesnt feature this and yes, its a big flaw.

Bahbus · May 2009

Originally posted by markfromindy

I had the same frustrations with DDO as some of the other posters. However, there does exist a great solution for people who actually want to have their adventure and role play in an online setting. Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 ( particularly NWN1) are great venues for online gaming. There have been and still are quite a few small scale online persistent world servers about created by and for fans of D&D.
There's a server (or mod that you can host online for play with a small group of friends) to suit just about any playstyle wether it's strict rp, hardcore hack n slash , "social" servers, or combinations of these.
Besides Half Life 1 & 2, the NWN games have been installed on my pc longer than any other games.I strongly suggest everyone to try them out, or if you bought the games, played their lousy buit in stories and expansions, then shelved them, you';re really missing out on some awesome online user created content and downloadable modules.All for the low low price of free.

Yes, that is a great suggestion. NWN is a great game.

DarkRanger65 · May 2009

Originally posted by Bahbus

Originally posted by markfromindy

I had the same frustrations with DDO as some of the other posters. However, there does exist a great solution for people who actually want to have their adventure and role play in an online setting. Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2 ( particularly NWN1) are great venues for online gaming. There have been and still are quite a few small scale online persistent world servers about created by and for fans of D&D.
There's a server (or mod that you can host online for play with a small group of friends) to suit just about any playstyle wether it's strict rp, hardcore hack n slash , "social" servers, or combinations of these.
Besides Half Life 1 & 2, the NWN games have been installed on my pc longer than any other games.I strongly suggest everyone to try them out, or if you bought the games, played their lousy buit in stories and expansions, then shelved them, you';re really missing out on some awesome online user created content and downloadable modules.All for the low low price of free.

Yes, that is a great suggestion. NWN is a great game.

Yes I second that. I played in PWs and played once a week in a group and had a blast.

Maybe one day there will be another NWN with updated graphics (NWN2 just didn't do it for me) but with the same gameplay.

Lord_Marshal · May 2009

If DDO was excatly the same but was gothic horror styled and placed in Ravenloft or apocalypse survival in Dark Sun, I would have overlooked everything and played it anyway.

X-Porter · May 2009

Originally posted by leshtricity
All Turbine did was make a glorified dungeon crawler. The dungeon-crawling is good, I give it that. I enjoyed most of the instances in the game. But it wasn't D&D. And seriously people, Eberron? Why not a time-tested and proven setting like the Realms, or Dragonlance?

Yeah, this was a big sticking point for me as well. Mostly because we got stuck with "Warforged" instead of some decent race choices. Also, I found the whole setting kind of grubby looking. Character models were bad, armor textures were bad, just couldn't get into it. And not being able to leave the city or immediate area was really lame. I can only hope that's changed since I played.

As I understand it, Eberron was the choice because WoTC owned it and wouldn't have to pay royalties, so there you go. Instead of getting a full world to explore and do things in, we got a city. Woot.

Rokurgepta · May 2009

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by Rokurgepta
I always thought it was sad how Turbine took the biggest name in RPG history, the game that is the backbone of most of what came after it in the genre and created a niche MMO. DDO should have been what WOW is population wise.

It was IMPOSSIBLE . Just think about it. I explained it in a post above. I'm glad they didn't take the "hard" route, as it would backfire even more.

D&D is very, and I mean very delicate matter. Niche game was much better approach if they wanted or had to stick to the ruleset. Blizzard could do everything and anything they liked, just for the game to work and be fun. Not to mention how long they developed that game, becasue they could - I don't think any other company invested so much in their MMO as Blizz. But they could, as they were "golden hit makers" and very rich & popular already.

Also I don't think any other company would do this game better. I'd rather expect any other big company out there which develops their MMOs would make it a WoW clone which wouldn't be even half as D&D as DDO is now.

I know that some rule-geeks trace every change in rules that Turbine did, but I really praise Turbine for their dedication to stay true to D&D in the rules, in mechanics, not just in the feel. Because we already see what happens -> Warhammer Online has Warhammer feel to it, but nothing more. Would any D&D fan truly want DDO to be done this way? Prettier, easier but not really D&D? I wouldn't and I thank Turbine for what they did and what they do.

I really want to see DDO 2 done by Turbine some day. If WotC would let any other company (obviously without Turbine's experience on DDO 1) do it then... I'd feel like hoping for a miracle, or not even hoping at all.

Why? Because this way you can earn more, and nothing else really matter these days. That's why Turbine is to me absolutely exceptional and the best in what they do. Not perfect, but there's a spirit, not just "money making machine" automaton.

Does Turbine sign your pay check by any chance? The best at what they do? Seriously?

Please actually explain to me why it was ok for Turbine to take THE BIGGEST NAME IN RPG HISTORY and create one of the smallest MMOs still running. Your long winder and rambling post aside you did not actually explain anything, you just praised Turbine as the best in the world like that should be a magic tonic to make us all see things your way.

You say niche game was better if they wanted or had to stick to the ruleset, but they have deviated when needed so please explain how its ok to make changes yet still ok to have made a game that is barely popular enough to stay open and is obviously being developed on a bare bones crew that will be 4 months late when the next mod hits?

Actually I do like the game and still have an active sub. I am just tired of Turbine ruining the best name in RPGs.

{Mod Edit}

Burnthebed · May 2009

I personally enjoy DDO quite a bit. I really like the fact that I can get on and do a couple of dungeons and log, or play for hours on end if I want.

I never played the pen and paper though so I have no predetermined opinion. That's the issue with you guys, you wanted DnD pen and paper in graphic form as an MMO. That would be a huge boring headache.

PW's on NWN get a thumbs up from me too though. I used to play them all the time.

Burnthebed · May 2009

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by Rokurgepta
I always thought it was sad how Turbine took the biggest name in RPG history, the game that is the backbone of most of what came after it in the genre and created a niche MMO. DDO should have been what WOW is population wise.