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My view of Aions problem
Level 31 Sorcerer, over 400 pvp kills, Full green PvP armor.
One major flaw Ive thought about in Aion is long term appeal. But to get to that need to say how PvP and rewards work.
PvP rewards are bought with Abyss points which are earned thru PvP kills anywhere in the world or PVE inside the Abyss. Average around 12 AP per mob, 100-150 per quest. For solo PvP kills, depending on level difference which you cannot see as the opposing faction shows as lvl ??. from <100 to highest ive had for a solo kill 350+. Had a 2 on 1 fight and got just over 500 for each.
The PvP armor/weapons/accesories are lvl 30, 40 and 50, All 3 grades of green, blue and gold. Obviously higher grade, higher AP cost. Green lvl 30 chest armor is 14k, legs 9k (arouund these figures would need to log on to see exact) gloves, boots, shoulder armor 6600AP. upto gold which is around 58k per piece. A LOT of farming, Fortresses cannot be farmed at that level as mobs start at level 40 group. Don't know if the level increases as you descend into the fortress.
At level 40 the cost of PvP rewards change, for blue and gold not just AP is used, but you also need badges gained from attacking fortresses. Silver for blue, gold and silver for gold.
Wheres the problem some of you may ask? Well, in games like this more often than not fortresses are locked down by the top guilds, thus if you arent one of the top guilds you are never going to get the gold and silver badges. So, top guilds will get stronger and hold dominance over the servers. An example of how PvP armor affects things. A templar (tank class) outfitted with full gold level 50 armor will, on top of the melee defence gained from passive skills and the armor willget an additional -25% damage taken from players, Plus from jewellry, weapons and belt gain a significant damage boost against players too, Thus making it even harder for newer or smaller guilds to compete.
So whats left? Pve, no raids as yet, albeit 1,2 adds an instanced dungeon to both sides. But, pve armor will not compete against pvp armor due to the bonuses.
Getting there is fun, lots of pvp if you look for it, fun fights, questing is the best ive seen in an Asian MMO. But, unless something changes long term appeal after many start getting to lvl cap is pretty non existant unless you are in the top guilds that control the forts, Also due to there not being anything else to do the guilds holding the forts will be pretty much focused on defence when it becomes attackable making it very difficult for smaller guilds to advance past a certain point.
Closest one I can compare with, for the older MMO players, is eq1 and planes of power expansion when the top raiding guilds controlled the raid spawns and blocked off content to a huge part of the players.
Maybe things will change over the coming months, as it's still pretty new, But somethings needs to be done about it if NCsoft want to keep it running,
Edited bit, added a screenshot
Comments
well hopefully they will fix this issue by the time it comes out in NA./EU....maybe
its annoying this type of problem occurs in every pvp based mmorpg.
do you have any ideas of how they can fix it? im only level 15 atm, cant really play mush until my finals so i dont have mush experiance in this area
March on! - Lets Invade Pekopon
Only ways I can think of is making more end game content for smaller guilds, putting a limit on how many forts and artifacts that can be controlled per guild.
Forts give money to the controlling guild also, one thing I forgot to mention, but ive a feeling it isnt an insignificant amount thus giving them not only control over the end game but also the economy,
For those who are in the top guilds it may seem a good scenario, but smaller guilds make up a huge population of the servers. Push them away due to inaccesible content and progression brick walls will have a major impact on the server population and thus the long term life of the game.
Some may compare to WoW that only certain guilds could kill top end raids, Dont know how it is now but for example pre burning crusade only a very small percentage of the guilds where progressing deeply into Naxxramas (sp). But where that comparison fails is that any guild could attempt Naxxramas, One guild farming it didnt stop other guilds from trying the instance of it, not so with Aions Forts, guilds lock them down means you cannot try. One faction controls all forts then other guilds on the same faction will not be able to take a Fort and get the medals for the pvp rewards,
that does seem problematic... are you able to take over a fortress held by an opposing race? it seems you would fix the problem by simply attacking their fortress with superior forces and take it over
Anyone know how this issue has panned out in Asia? Presumably As the game has been running longer there, the issue is already being dealt with by the player base?
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
Forts are attackable for a 2hour window (not 100% sure of the turn over time), the problem is that pvp armor makes a HUGE difference in fights. Also smaller guilds arent able to put overwhelming numbers into the fight against the zerg guilds.
The issue isnt about time taken to progress, but the fact that smaller guilds wont be able to compete at all in the present situation.
An example. Ive done a few 2v1 3v1 fights and won due to having pvp armor. Thats green armor, bnow imagine a guild kitted out in gold (epic) pvp armor defending. Due to experience in other games, defence is easier than attack in static forts.
Thus stopping the attacking guild from ever getting at the gold reward armor and thus making it more and more difficult to compete.
Forts are attackable for a 2hour window (not 100% sure of the turn over time), the problem is that pvp armor makes a HUGE difference in fights. Also smaller guilds arent able to put overwhelming numbers into the fight against the zerg guilds.
The issue isnt about time taken to progress, but the fact that smaller guilds wont be able to compete at all in the present situation.
An example. Ive done a few 2v1 3v1 fights and won due to having pvp armor. Thats green armor, bnow imagine a guild kitted out in gold (epic) pvp armor defending. Due to experience in other games, defence is easier than attack in static forts.
Thus stopping the attacking guild from ever getting at the gold reward armor and thus making it more and more difficult to compete.
I guess the only solution as it stands would be to make alliances with other guilds (at least temporary ones) and take it over. If you had maybe twice the number or people you should win? It should be tough to take over an enemy fortress i believe.
If everyone had access to gold armor then that would make it worthless right? I know its unfair, but hey, if you ever build up your forces and are able to catch the enemy while theyre sleeping and take it then that makes it all the sweeter right?
You could think of controlling a fortress, such a difficult task, as your endgame.
Or you could take the boring easy way and try to join their guild.
What about the AI controlled faction the Balaur ? I got the impression that part of their job is to control balance on a server, do you think they will take any role in a scenario like that?
As a major fan of Aion, I declare this post well-put! Aion is not without its issues, and this is one of them. The system needs some defining, because as the OP says, the top guilds will hold the server and there will be no getting around it. There will be no way for smaller guilds to compete. It's like Perfect World, where the whole server was owned by 3 different guilds, and only because the most dominant one (owned like 75% of the land) didn't feel like going through the trouble of pwning the other two.
The problem is, they can't really limit people from participating as that ruins the fun for others. I think the best bet would be to add more fortresses, which as I understand it, is already planned.
EDIT: Oh and the Balaur are not undefeatable, they can actually be taken out especially by a strong guild decked out in nice gear. Their AI isn't the greatest either, I'm told they often get stuck on things flying around (they're very large). Something else that's getting tweaked.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
How does adding fortresses solve the problem? won't the top guild go after the new fortresses as well?
How does adding fortresses solve the problem? won't the top guild go after the new fortresses as well?
Not really. From what I remember reading (someone please correct me if I'm wrong, this was a while ago) there are roughly 3 fortresses per area, and there are MANY areas of the Abyss. It's not just one map. To go after the fortresses of the other areas would spread forces way too think, and they would end up losing everything. The most likely scenario is that a strong guild will hold down one or two forts and stick with that, concentrating their forces so they can keep what they own.
The other option is to limit the amount of people that are able to fight during that time. Say, the first 40 people (per side) to sign up, are in. That doesn't help against the fact that the owning guild will be better equipped, but that IS part of the reward for owning the fortress so I can deal with that. It worked very well in Rappelz; I was part of Leviathan on Yeti, and even guilds more powerful than us we were able to take down and later protect against. Mind you, eventually someone was able to take us down as well (also a smaller guild, ironically) but that's the name of the game.
'nother EDIT : to answer the upcoming question, guild spaces are not limitless, there is a cap on the amount of people allowed in one guild, so you can't just invite tons of people so you have more forces to spread out.
"Forums aren't for intelligent discussion; they're for blow-hards with unwavering opinions."
Are you playing on the Chinese version or the Korean version ? Ap rewards have been changed in Korea retail but has not been put into the chinese retail as of yet.
Also there are too many fortress ( 11 I think as of now ) for one strong guild to hold. The main focus of the strongest guild from each side will be trying to take and hold the center core fortress, The center core is the best one to hold. Guilds will give up the lesser one's for this prize.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Spending AP on items sets your rank back?
Would it be a better idea to go for the highest ranks possible for the transformation, or would you instead deck yourself out in pvp gear so the former can be made easier?
Crafted gear is better IMO.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Crafted gear is better IMO.
Crafted is better than drops and quest rewards for PvE, but due to the bonuses from the PVP gear, reward gear is the best for that. Armor gives bonus reduced damage from players, accessories and weapon give increased damage to players, plus they have extra slots for more manastones.
I guess none of you guys know how to own a fortress, you killed the guardian inside fortress then its yours. BUT........its not the total damage or total AP you earn during the fight for fortress/guardian. It's the last hit that killed guardian decide "who"(his guild/legion) going to own the fortress. So a big guild wont guarteen you controling them 100% of the time. Since you cant PK other players from the same faction, so they can zerg the guardian while you tanking it. I personal dont like this way but it might be a solution to prevent a guild domination and control all the fortresses.
Excellent post for a problematic issue. I've been watching Aion for awhile and look forward to playing it, but find this aspect of the game troublesome. Hopefully, they work the kinks out prior to an NA/EU release but don't ruin the overall point of the fortresses and the benefits of holding them. Thanks for the heads up, OP.
Oh, and the people who point out their are guild caps and logistics prevent holding more than a few good forts at a time... well, dont' forget, there will be guilds that have chapters in order to spread out there influence. Stuff like "Knights of the Blue Skies" and "Knights of the Green Skies" and "Knights of the Clear sky," and, and...
I have a feeling that well organized guilds with strong leadership,and the ability to delegate and run their operation almost like franchises will dominate the game as it stands today. All it takes is a strong leader and some willing lieutenants (who will assume the leadership roles in the spin-off guilds) to make a huge alliance that can hold *several* forts and cause a whole lot of grief.
Has not happened as of yet in Korea or China. There have been legions in korea that have taken 2 or 3 at one time but can't hold them for long. If there is a strong legion on one side then there will be one on the other faction side.
Better to focus on the higher tier fortresses if your a strong legion and leave the lower one's alone.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
Crafted gear is better IMO.
Crafted is better than drops and quest rewards for PvE, but due to the bonuses from the PVP gear, reward gear is the best for that. Armor gives bonus reduced damage from players, accessories and weapon give increased damage to players, plus they have extra slots for more manastones.
When you craft you have a 20-30% chance to crit the item. If you use your DP while crafting you will have a better chance to crit.
If you are crafting a green item and crit it. it will craft it blue.
Green > blue.
Blue > gold.
gold > elite gold item.
Crafted items are the best items in the game regardless if its pvp gear or not. It's just hard to do and cost alot.
Velika: City of Wheels: Among the mortal races, the humans were the only one that never built cities or great empires; a curse laid upon them by their creator, Gidd, forced them to wander as nomads for twenty centuries...
It would happen on server that one faction are serious out number by another faction. Since you cant attack you own faction player's fortress, so you cant take any fortress unless its taken by other faction. Which might cause lot of drama.
From I what read the Dragon race will help the weak faction when they defending and attacking by the strong faction. I didnt pay attention to what they said when I was doing starting quests inside abyss. They mentioned something like dont get close the huge flying ship from Dragon race, perhaps thats how they balance over outnumbers.
You missing one step,
Its Green --->Elite Green ----> Blue
Blue----->Elite Blue------->Gold
So when it crit it could be elite not " it will craft it blue", and I believe 20-30% chance is for elite version.
I think OP should level up a bit before claiming endgame PvE stuff as non competitive ;P
Abyss gear is good for sorcerer because you can stack even more HP, but instance gear and crafted gear is better for classes who look for extra movement speed and attack speed.
If the badges you need for more powerful PvP gear are only gained through attacking forts, one thing that could happen is guilds will swap the keeps back and forth to 'maximize' their rewards.
Kind of like in Warhammer Online, you got PvP gear by attacking forts, so fort swapping ended up happening sometimes.
I've never played Warhammer Online, so I'm wondering more about your comment. How exactly did it work? Did the guild holding the fort just agree to randomly give it up if other guilds asked, or did people pay the holding guild to let them take the fort?
In Aion, I could see everything from bidding wars between guilds trying to get the holding guild to give up the fort to intrigue and betrayal where guilds double-cross each other and inter-race "wars" erupt. Kinda cool.
I've never played Warhammer Online, so I'm wondering more about your comment. How exactly did it work? Did the guild holding the fort just agree to randomly give it up if other guilds asked, or did people pay the holding guild to let them take the fort?
In Aion, I could see everything from bidding wars between guilds trying to get the holding guild to give up the fort to intrigue and betrayal where guilds double-cross each other and inter-race "wars" erupt. Kinda cool.
I played Warhammer for 6 months, just quit a while ago (bugs + guild leaving the main 2 reasons). But back to the subject.
What happened a lot was called 'fort swapping' in the game. Fort swapping did not happen all the time, just some of the time. Our side knew what fortresses the enemy was taking and have taken. So we would attack the fort that they were not at to take it quickly, while the opposing side would do the same. So you would get an seemingly endless circle of fortress swapping for hours on end during prime time.
It was just assumed, almost an unwritten rule most of the time. Trying to convince people to actually defend a fort was hard work, because they don't get any 'phat lootz' from defending.
However, as people got more and more of their 'phat lootz', they would either quit the game or decide to actually PvP and defend a fort. So fort swapping did not last forever, and as said above, it did not happen all the time.
Just something I think could happen in this game too.
Happened quite often on the server I played on. Enough that it bordered on being ridiculous. Of course, it didn't help that when both sides tried having an "epic" battle over a fort it lagged so bad effecting the entire zone or at times actually crashed the zone and sometimes even the server.
Of course part of War's PvP issues were the scenarios so it had a rather dramatic effect on world PvP which this game doesn't have so maybe without that item people will put more effort into actual world/realm pvp.
I hope if this game does go for the same design they have things in place to stop fortswapping and have the server capabilities or instance the areas to a level to handle multiple players going after each other.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.