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Define MMORPG
TheTemplar
Member UncommonPosts: 37
Something that struck me with EQ2 is their use of zones. It certainly have some advantages but somehow it shatters my view of an MMORPG. Generally it seems that a zone can not carry more than 30:ish players before becomming full. That kind-of partitioning of areas seem more like an attempt to wrap an ordinary MORPG in a massive environment. Shouldn`t an MMORPG allow for atleast a hundred players to be at the same place, at the same time?
I`m not saying that this is totally bad, it gives you the chance to go to an alternative Zone if the current one is crowded or the spawns you want are camped. Unless both zones are full, which was the case for our group when we decided to switch zones the other day in Fallen Gate.
Comments
I think the same applies to Guild Wars.
Someone said in the beta, "This isn't an MMORPG, it's a multiplayer game with an amazing lobby".
I think a "Massively" online game should allow everyone to be in the same place at the same time, and all be able to see each other, as in UO, SWG, etc.
I can see the benefits of instancing areas of the games, but as you say, it is moving away from the idea of everyone being in the same game.
There's massive vs. clogged. For instance, if you'd look at UO housing system, it was massive yes, but also every other spot on the map turned into a house in no less than 2 months.
EQ2 **IS** massive, by your words I guess you haven't left the newbie zones yet (no offense, just strikes me odd you make this comment), but EQ2 zone population limits are derived straight from the zone sizes. Newbie zones are capped at 20 characters afaik because they are very small, in comparison outdoor doors are each limited to a couple hundred players per instance (somwhere between 100 - 200 I'd guess, the player list is truncated at 100 results). Dungeons are capped at 30 - 40ish people so they don't overcrowd.
In reality, a full newbie zone is more than overcrowding, especially with people racing for nodes, while the other areas are really balanced. You will never run out of camps or mobs to hunt in the commonlands because of overcrowding, but will also never feel quite stranded alone.
As for Guild Wars, that's a totally different system, and I agree that's not quite a MMORPG (the only MM thing in it is the fact everyone connects to the same hub server).
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Always run with scissors. The quicker you go, the quicker you'll get to your destination and the quicker you'll finish using the scissors, therefore significantly reducing your chances of injuring yourself
What really scares me with the way EQ2 handles its dungeons is that I have, at several occasions, needed to camp an entrance to get in (even when zoning inside Freeport which is really bad).
Everquest II was designed to be more of a party-based multiplayer game, instead of the large scale raid type of multiplayer that the original is known for. I remember interviews with the dev team a while ago and they said they wanted to bring back the feeling of older Dungeons and Dragons roleplaying games where you and a small group of friends could adventure into dungeons or across the wilderness. An example of this contrasting style is the death and ressurrection mechanics in Everquest and Everquest II. In EQ, anyone who had the ability could rez you if you were dead. It was a large world but it was covered with many players, and often you could send a tell and have a nice person come and give you a rez. In Everquest II, you rely only on your group. There is no outside help at all. This is just one of the examples of how EQ2 tries to make the game a more close-knit group style of play.
In a type of game like Everquest and SWG, this can be accomplished, but in games like City of Heroes and Everquest II, it is favorable to have separate instances so that the more numerous, smaller groups will have access to the games content, instead of a massive raid all trying to get in on it together in the same instance as in EQ.
At first I wasn't sure I liked this new system of separate instances for the exact reason stated in the original post. But I remember UO and Everquest and I realized that if Everquest II was like them, it would need incredible servers that could handle the load, and besides that, there would just be a huge bottleneck in cities and at popular areas to hunt and adventure.
In the cities, there are no instances. As far as I can tell, everyone on the server can goto North Qeynos and it will be the same instance. This is why there is lag in cities. There is no lag in the instanced zones, for me at least. I have a high end machine and cable connection and I rarely lag at all, but when the city is crowded, sometimes I do. I don't mind this because in the city is especially where I want everyone to be together on the same instance. Out in Stormhold, I would prefer there to be instances so that I am not tripping over someone else or waiting for another group to leave a quest spot that my group needs, etc.
Another perspective, and mainlny how I look at it while I play, is from the roleplaying standpoint. I think Everquest II is a very immersive game and I have found many roleplayers who make it even better. When I am in a dungeon, the atmosphere is great and makes things believalbe. Now imagine 300 other adventurers there with you and all of that atmosphere goes out the door, especially when the majority of these players are not roleplayers. In a dungeon type of instance, there really should not be a lot of players at once. If there were it would lose all of its intimidating qualities and I would never feel scared to go in because I know there are players all around me killing monsters, clearing a path, or being nearby if I needed help. When you are in an instanced dungeon with only a small amount of people, it feels empty, there are monsters everywhere, and you feel alone, you feel the danger.
I guess there are many different takes on this subject, but after playing Everquest II and before that City of Heroes, I have come to like the instance zone method in mmorpgs, and call it whatever you like, it works for me.
Well, let's differentiate here... I think what you are referring to is instancing and not zones. There actually is a difference in why each is used. Instancing is a population control technique as you explain above, but from what I understand, the reason they utilize zones is a technical limitation in what they want to achieve. From my understanding, if you have a seamless world you are limited in colors by the palette size. With zones, you can load and unload various palettes to give each zone a distinct "flavor" with distinct colors. This is easily seen in the various planets in SWG. Taking a shuttle from one planet to another consisted of "zoning", so an entire new palette can be loaded for each planet giving each their own distinct look.
As for instancing's impact on it being a MMORPG, it's still a single game serving a massive amount of people. Your arguement for instancing making it not a "massive" multiplayer online game can be used to argue that a game utilizing shards or worlds is not a "massive" game as well since they are all not on the same server. This actually goes against all MMORPG games including those that defined what a MMORPG is in the first place.
It`s this elusive massive that you have pointed out at several parts of your text that is the issue here I think. When does a game become massive when does it become justified for a company to get payed for the massive? What would be the difference if EQ2 had instanced zones that were hosted on the client, would it still be massive? Is it just that a number of people need to be able to co-exist in the same area, what is that massive number?
Edit: Added a part about floodgates.
L:Hail, Tain of the southern plains.
T:Hail, Larion, I needeth a companion to journey with me to the Wailing Caves where we will find ritches as well as danger.
L:Aye, I will follow as long as our booty is randomly distributed.
T:Aye.
*Tain has changed group settings*
The two companions journeys to the gaping maw of the entrance to the Wailing Caves
L:-Tain, hurry, for I see we are not alone, treasures will be plentiful if you can just quicken your pace.
T:-*huph*Thine boots runneth as if they were on fire.
L:-Aye, they were given to me because I payed early for my journey to the Isle of Refuge.
Tain nods. Larion disappears into the door. Tain reaches for the handle.
Zone is full.
T:-What is this for trickery, the door will not open. Yet I can enter another, identical, area which much less people.
L:-Aye enter that area and I will follow.
Tain enters the alternative zone and Larion exits the orginal zone.
Zone is full.
L:-Ack, this door is now locked!
...and so on
Tain was later killed by a train while waiting AFK at the entrance for his friend to get a slot to enter.
Larion left the group upset that he got debt without even getting into the dungeon.
Tooooo bad isntances dont work like that :O If you are grouped, you can enter zone no amtter what.. at least from my experience.. besides.. when does 1 person fill a zone? and instances are only created when a zone is filled by alot.. if you really wanted, a few thousand people could probably enter the same isntance at the same time.. would take a few minutes of the zone being crowded for another to eb created...
Actually, I didn't say that. What I did say was that the games which defined what a MMORPG is (UO, EQ, etc) all had "worlds" or "shards" which were just duplicate copies a single world. This duplicate copy of a single world is exactly what instancing is bringing to the table. I'm simply saying that instancing existed long before they ever decided to instance zones. Instancing existed in the games that defined what a MMORPG is. That's all I was saying.
As for NWN being a MMORPG, it could be. It all depends really on what "Massive" is referring to. Is it an adjective defining the "Multiplayer" aspect or an adjective describing the "Game" aspect? If it was referring to the "Game" aspect in MMORPG, then yes, NWN can be a MMORPG since you can create a huge world for people to play in. However, since people haven't, in general, referred to NWN as a MMORPG, then one would have to assume the general acceptance is the "Massive" in MMORPG pertains the the "Multiplayer" aspect.
The fact that NWN allows the player the ability to play "offline", there-by taking out the Multiplayer aspect all together, nullifies itself from being a MMO anyway. This could be one of the primary reasons you have never seen NWN referred to as a MMO. If the game had no single player aspect to it, I'd bet you would have seen it referred to as a MMO.
Excellent point. The actually definition of "Massive" is a vague one at best. I don't know if anyone ever put any numbers on that term. I found this definition online, but again, vaguely refers to the numbers as being "thousands".
As for the justification to be paid for the "Massive" aspect, I don't think that is what the companies are charging for. The charge is for the continuous work on the games. Granted, it seems most of that work is fixing bugs they put in there in the first place
but there definitely are large content additions to MMORPG's out there on the market today. So instead of hitting you with a $50 fee every couple of months for a "new game", they milk it out of you over the course of 5-6 months and put in content whcih could be viewed as a "new game".
I am not gonna say that I know this for certain, but I do not think that there is an infinite number of instances waiting to be unlocked either. I have been waiting outside both wailing caves and fallen gate when all zones said full and no new ones opened up.
Edit: decided to remove numbers since I'm not that certain.
I am not gonna say that I know this for certain, but I do not think that there is an infinite number of instances waiting to be unlocked either. I have been waiting outside both wailing caves and fallen gate when all zones said full and no new ones opened up.
Edit: decided to remove numbers since I'm not that certain.
TheTemplar is correct here. It happens quite often with Stormhold too. In fact, in SH's case, you dont even get prompted a list of instances to enter. It just throws you into the next available instance so if 1/2 your group gets into Stormhold zone 1 and the other 1/2 gets throw into Stormhold 2, you need to keep exiting and entering until it decides to put you in Stormhold 1. This could take upwards of an hour to happen which is REALLY bad.