World of Warcraft is one of the reasons WAR flopped as it was spewed from the tongue of Mark Jacobs that part of the design of WAR was to try and draw in WoW subscribers ie the scenario fiasco..
While I agree that Mythic and Mark Jacobs specifically looked at Wow and tried to take things from it technically (as well as Wow's customers), that's in no way Wow's fault.
Wow is a game. It has it's own audience long before WAR came along and doesn't try and steal other MMO's base. How can a game be responsible for a whole other game flopping around with poor direction? It can't, because it's just a game. Neither are Wow's designers to blame.. are you suggesting that they should have made Wow a little less popular so no one would want to copy it?
Saying Wow is one of the reasons for Mark Jacob's bad decisions with WAR is like blaming Pamela Anderson for the severe scarring of a homely girl's lips and tatas after her father pushed her into having plastic surgery so she'd be more popular like Pam.
Mythic and Mark Jacobs are the only one responsible for WAR flop.Kaplan & Team + Blizzard marketing did a great job.They knew what was needed and missing at that particular time .Casual gamers/hardcore raiders dreamed it,Blizzard made it and they won....home run
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
Neither AOC or Warhammer are good games, and their declining populations show it. But Darkfall barely qualifies as a MMORPG. It has probably at most 15k active subscribers (being generous) two months after launch. It is like a very unprofessional private UO server with a very flaky development team. ... again, very similar to what you would expect if you played a private UO server. The GMs are also active players, who act on behalf of their clans to stop invaders using GM powers. People who want to play Darkfall, can't even buy it at the store. The official website still has a place where you can register for the 'beta' etc etc etc. As bad as AOC is, it at least feels like it is a real MMORPG, Darkfall feels like some kid through it together in his garage. Again, it's like a poorly run private UO server that just happens to charge $15/month.
As I said, I wouldn't be defending Darkfall at all. That's not my place.
I'm looking at the standards he set as determining what a "flop" is, and I'm wondering if he's using that across the board as a measuring stick. If he is, he's including quite a few games with that. Not just WAR and AoC.
I noticed that all the games except DDO launched way too early here.
And the editors and voters could not know that the companies would mess up the release that much, the key to success is releasing a product that is actually finished from the start, the consumers don't want a half done buggy thing that should have stayed another year in development. I am sure that VG, AoC and WAR would have done better if they fixed the problems with the games before release.
As for DDO, I think the choice of world lost a lot of subs to it, Forgotten realms, Dragon lance or even Ravenloft would have done better. But what really stole subs from it was Guildwars, even though the games are different most people who don't mind instances prefer the better programmed game without monthly fees.
"It is far too soon to tell what the future holds for Darkfall, but its development and release has captured the attention, both positive and negative, of many MMO fans."
The game has been out 12 weeks..! Has 9k players with nearly 50% retainment rate. Darkfall is an utter flop. It's time MMORPG starts to stand up for it's community members (user base) and stop fronting cupcakes to these Developers. Have a backbone for once and just call out these half-wit deveopers. We demand more from you MMORPG.com. Or at least expect you to be honest with us and yourself.
This publication/website has lost a lot of respect over the last few months. With shoddy reviews and biased reporting.
Warhammer has been out has been out for 38 weeks and is substantially under a 50% retention rate.
Would you call Warhammer a failure? Plenty wouldn't. But by your criteria its far worse of a failure than Darkfall, so you probably should revise that.
Well, the rest of the game devs didn't say stuff like Barnett before launch.
Still, I wouldn't consider it a total failure but Mythic did a bad job of making fans of the original IP happy, they strayed to close to Wow and the people who likes Wow are playing Wow, while the people who likes Warhammer got upset because that the game is too far from the RPG and tabletop.
Mythic could have done a lot better, if they had mixed DaoC with WFRPG we would have gotten an awesome game, now it is just ok.
Why does it always seem the people who hate fanbois have more passion for hating them then the fans have for thier game?? Seems dilusional. My personal opinion is that people always like to hear about themselves being right, so you sit on either side of the fence.......you love or hate a game, that way when you defend or attack each other you have people backing you up. In a way youve made a little community you can relate to for guidence........so sad.
If people want to see totally new and great games more risks need to be taking (preferably by big companies...we all know why..cough...DO...cough) at least they had the balls to do somthing different. Devs need to drop the whole.....this is how you make a MMORPG pamphlet theyve all been given and re-think the whole genre.
I think the real question is What is going wrong and why isn't it glaringly obvious? All these hyped games don't really deliver what the players are clamoring for. In the case of AoC and WAR maybe it really is the whole hype/release too early issue. After seeing what LOTRO has done since launch, much better game now. What AoC is planning for this month, actually looks like the most needed changes. DDO made a ton of changes and is still alive and kicking. Even WAR is making changes and improving the game.
I just have to wonder what the problem is, or is this just a result of general human disgruntlement. No matter what is done, or made or given, people will ALWAYS find something to gripe about.
Although....playing WAR...a certain "something" was missing. Playing AoC that certain "something went missing about halfway to the level cap". In EQ2, "something" is missing. LOTRO at launch, "something" was missing(but is now miraculously there). Just wish I could define what that "something" is.
I noticed that all the games except DDO launched way too early here. And the editors and voters could not know that the companies would mess up the release that much, the key to success is releasing a product that is actually finished from the start, the consumers don't want a half done buggy thing that should have stayed another year in development. I am sure that VG, AoC and WAR would have done better if they fixed the problems with the games before release. As for DDO, I think the choice of world lost a lot of subs to it, Forgotten realms, Dragon lance or even Ravenloft would have done better. But what really stole subs from it was Guildwars, even though the games are different most people who don't mind instances prefer the better programmed game without monthly feesExac
Exactly, release way too early for their own good.
Seeing the numbers of players base swell when they are hyping up the game, the devs have a wrong impression to release the game now and hope to carry on with the rest of the games, thinking the player base will stay and give them enough time to finish.
Another flaw they make is trying to complete with WoW. Thinking if they release early than they will capture those players away from WoW coming x-pac.
Etc etc etc.... just wrong decisions after decisions that all these companies have made. And it will continue to haunt them for the rest of the game life span.
On a side note, players always say WoW just take the best out of other games and put it together and its actually nothing new. If that's so, than it must be a really very simple plan! Since you just need to copy and paste.
But how come till now, none other company can do it?
Frankly, bad designs are bad designs regardless of the hype. I think that us players are giving way too much benefit-of-doubt for the game designers by saying that their game would have been ground-breaking would they have spent some more time internally developing it. After all, the success isn't measured by the internal development back-slapping but by the gaming community. The games mentioned here that have amended the situation from the dreadful launch are not changing their course due to lack of pre-launch polish but due to lack of pre-launch thought. The hyped ideas weren't just fun no matter how much touted. Certainly, adding features that players are missing is nice and dandy but doesn't that just mean that the game developers themselves have ran out of ideas already ages ago when the "hyped" features of today's MMO market are the same you could see on MUDs at early 90s.
The gamers step into virgin worlds armed solely by their preconceived ideas as of what would be fun to them. If the game fails to deliver on those fronts the game is a failure. Most can cope with bumpy launch if what they find underneath the purely technical issues is worth investing in. I think that WoW's launch (or EVE's) is a paramount evidence on this: no-one can say that the game's launch was particularily classy with crashing servers days-in-days-out but the core game-mechanics were fun and allowed you to enjoy from the first quest onwards. It might be popular to say that WoW is merely a copycat of the grand ideas of its predecessors but would that be the case also DDO, AoC, WAR and Darkfall would have been successful to the same measure as people could have endured the choppy ride for they knew what a gem they had. History tells a different story. At times it feels that gaming industry as a whole is entering the same era of sequels as the movie industry has been for a few decades where risk is too costly for anyone to take. Waiting for the HBO of MMOs.
I think the real question is What is going wrong and why isn't it glaringly obvious? All these hyped games don't really deliver what the players are clamoring for. In the case of AoC and WAR maybe it really is the whole hype/release too early issue. After seeing what LOTRO has done since launch, much better game now. What AoC is planning for this month, actually looks like the most needed changes. DDO made a ton of changes and is still alive and kicking. Even WAR is making changes and improving the game. I just have to wonder what the problem is, or is this just a result of general human disgruntlement. No matter what is done, or made or given, people will ALWAYS find something to gripe about. Although....playing WAR...a certain "something" was missing. Playing AoC that certain "something went missing about halfway to the level cap". In EQ2, "something" is missing. LOTRO at launch, "something" was missing(but is now miraculously there). Just wish I could define what that "something" is.
For me that "something" is a genuine, tactile, grab you out of your socks and shake you sense of being able to create something of my own, grow it and have the potential for it to matter in the world. Examples:
EvE: Corporations and their ability to stake out territory, gather resources, manufacture, form alliance, wars
DAoC: RvR. Now, I'm not talking about the PvP aspect as so many do when they say RvR. I mean the concepts of having a homeland, having areas to struggle over, having meaningful reasons to do so.
Asheron's Call: The main, monthly advanced story line; Having dev controlled NPCs of note (in the lore) show up in towns and interact with players (port to Teth from Bael'zaron anyone? Better bring your wings!)
SWG: A make sense crafting, CREATION ability. Devs focus so much on combat and tearing things/people down and not near enough on a deeply thought out player world building mechanics.
Horizons: Tying this in to the creation aspects of SWG just to add the concept of having destroyed areas and allows players to reclaim and rebuild them. Again, also vesting players in the game world.
I'm not worried about combat. Combat is leaps and bounds ahead of all other aspects in the MMOs being made by all houses (the big boys and the indies) today. But combat "because I can" does not create a long lasting, get me invested to care, cause me to fork over money to you for years, clincher.
People yammer that it would take 1-2 years more development time to do all that well. Well, maybe that needs to be considered. It may even take a few companies going under because their "recoup our investment on box sales and a few months subscriptions" formula that seems the idea of the day in dev-land just doesn't pan out.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Everything about this game has sparked controversy, from a release that has phased in new players, to controversial reviews and the developer reactions to them, to the nature of the game itself. It is far too soon to tell what the future holds for Darkfall, but its development and release has captured the attention, both positive and negative, of many MMO fans.
This has to be one of the single best conclusions I have ever read. Mr Wood - for blatant fear of not upsetting one camp or another - has chosen the road of total neutrality and is sitting with his legs well and truly swinging on both sides of the fence. I read the article up until this point and saw some pretty well placed conclusions on each game. Would have been nice to see your thoughts on the game up until this point, rather than a level of cowardise :-P
That isn't a criticism. I can understand why you did but it's not what I wanted to see :-P
Good reading, and also good to see what was hot then, and what has happened to the games by now Personally, I've followed the hype twice (AoC and WAR), and I was greatly disappointed, and I was not the only one. Perhaps the hype around games makes the preassure on the developers too big that they release their games way too early..?
I feel exacly the same.
These games aren't 100% finish at all at the release. This is so frustrating... On my PS3, whem I buy a game, this game is completed. why not MMO's???...
Everything about this game has sparked controversy, from a release that has phased in new players, to controversial reviews and the developer reactions to them, to the nature of the game itself. It is far too soon to tell what the future holds for Darkfall, but its development and release has captured the attention, both positive and negative, of many MMO fans. This has to be one of the single best conclusions I have ever read. Mr Wood - for blatant fear of not upsetting one camp or another - has chosen the road of total neutrality and is sitting with his legs well and truly swinging on both sides of the fence. I read the article up until this point and saw some pretty well placed conclusions on each game. Would have been nice to see your thoughts on the game up until this point, rather than a level of cowardise :-P That isn't a criticism. I can understand why you did but it's not what I wanted to see :-P
The conclusions reached with the other gameswere reached after looking at their performance over a much longer period of time. There ins't much to say about Darkfall yet that can be backed up with long term evidence other than what was said.
Same days I am accused of being biased, and some days I am accused of not being biased enough. Today was the latter, I supopose.
Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure...
I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there..
Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure?
Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..
In the short history of MMORPG.com awards, neither the Reader's Choice nor Editorial award winners for Most Anticipated Game has ever gone on to win a Game of the Year, Best Game, Best New Game or Favorite Game award in the next year"
Why, this is the most simple and pure fact of games:
HYPE IS BAD.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Its all about hype here... ... Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure... I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there.. Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure? Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..
That's the issue of objectivity. Most people (fanbois and haters on the extreme of the scale) have absolutely no idea what objectivity means. They think in terms of "universal good" and "universal bad". A hater does not like a certain combat mechanism of a game - he goes out yelling and crying that it's "BAD", universally. People should finally understand what "apples and oranges" mean. But they need to grow up first, and it just won't happen to everyone. Ever.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
Its all about hype here... ... Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure... I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there.. Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure? Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..
This is gaming bigotry at its finest. Why is it that Darkfallers seek to discredit the opinions of other players through their gaming history, as if playing a game like EQ2 or LOTRO permanently "taints" a person, so that they cannot possibly have a valid opinion on a game like DF. It's a pretty flimsy tactic, and a desperate one as well.
It is, in fact, possible for the same gamer to like both PvE and PvP focused MMOs (and RTS games, and FPS games, and sports sims, etc).
Darkfall players keep making the tired claim - "this game isn't for everybody", but still get annoyed and defensive when everybody who tries it doesn't like it. In my opinion, that overused phrase has become a dodge, meant to deflect criticism from the weaknesses and breaks in the game.
"This game isn't for everybody" was supposed to cover the harsh FFA PvP with full loot nature of the game, not the fact that DF is a paper-thin, out of tune, shallow "sandbox" MMO at the present time.
Frankly, bad designs are bad designs regardless of the hype. I think that us players are giving way too much benefit-of-doubt for the game designers by saying that their game would have been ground-breaking would they have spent some more time internally developing it. After all, the success isn't measured by the internal development back-slapping but by the gaming community. The games mentioned here that have amended the situation from the dreadful launch are not changing their course due to lack of pre-launch polish but due to lack of pre-launch thought. The hyped ideas weren't just fun no matter how much touted. Certainly, adding features that players are missing is nice and dandy but doesn't that just mean that the game developers themselves have ran out of ideas already ages ago when the "hyped" features of today's MMO market are the same you could see on MUDs at early 90s.
The gamers step into virgin worlds armed solely by their preconceived ideas as of what would be fun to them. If the game fails to deliver on those fronts the game is a failure. Most can cope with bumpy launch if what they find underneath the purely technical issues is worth investing in. I think that WoW's launch (or EVE's) is a paramount evidence on this: no-one can say that the game's launch was particularily classy with crashing servers days-in-days-out but the core game-mechanics were fun and allowed you to enjoy from the first quest onwards. It might be popular to say that WoW is merely a copycat of the grand ideas of its predecessors but would that be the case also DDO, AoC, WAR and Darkfall would have been successful to the same measure as people could have endured the choppy ride for they knew what a gem they had. History tells a different story. At times it feels that gaming industry as a whole is entering the same era of sequels as the movie industry has been for a few decades where risk is too costly for anyone to take. Waiting for the HBO of MMOs.
Very well said. All this old Games had more or less troubles with their release yet people stayed or came back. LotrO and Eve are pretty good examples how they turned things arround. Maybe it is all about this hyping, though I seriously doubt this, or it is more about: Less talking, more action .
Most Devs tend to talk a lot but do very little to get their MMO back on track. That's the key for a successful MMO, I guess, as long as they keep working on their game (patches, content etc) . Mythic only started to develop WAR because DAoC became less and less popular but instead to fix this game and to keep trying to get people interested again they decided to go for something new instead, of course it couldn't have all worked out...esp. not if they go with this kind of thinking at a new project.
Eve online however shows how it can work if a company won't give up...it is worth to follow an idea even if it's sometimes hard.
This is a new kind of mindset though it was always one way or another there...that people want right away to be successfully and at best remain successfully but that's not how life works, for your ideas and visions you still have to work and sometimes you have to go through hell and back till you see the day your ideas become real.
It goes to show that not just anyone can make a successful mmo. So many average-failure type mmos out today the genre really needs good companies to make good games again. I wish I was playing a good mmo right now but unfortunately there is nothing to feel good about mmos today. Thank god for fps,rpg and rts games to keep me busy while someone decides to make a good mmo again.
Good article. I see a number of reasons why the "hyped" games failed. Hyped as in having enough votes on mmorpg.com to win 'most anticipated games".. 1. Blizzard is (and was) a giant in the PC gaming world. No wonder it made other mmorpg's look less polished. 2. AoC and War developpers thought that most Wow players were "bored" and wanted to have a new game. Error: Only forum posters and people who paticipate in discussions on mmorpg.com are bored. Players that do play a game actively will not leave that game for a copy. It is time posters look at the industry and not mix up personal experience with general trends (like looking at sales charts ...). The fact that even game developpers made that error is proof they read ... too much forums. They should make better games instead of reading forums where sometimes complete nonsense is published. Like comparing this industry with food or female singers... 3. Like it or not but the bars have been raised in the recent years. it is no longer enough to ask to kill 10 boars and /or 5 players ...a new "best" mmorpg has to have ALL the features we are used to AND add a couple of others. Here is the "secret" behind the succes of Blizzard: they constantly change the game mechanics without changing the formula: and care for everyone to play a game at their ... pace. Old players of Wow can argue what they want: I didn't see open free continents, flying personal mounts, underwater worlds, mounted combat, dual specs and phasing in AoC or War. Nor the fantastic fluid responsve fights Wow is known for: a first to even have a valid PvP fight: .... the engine. As to DF: it is the hardest and darkest fall of mmorpg's hype ever. It had to happen someday to wake up the ridiculous dreamers QQ's on mmorpg.com. I hope for the "dreamers" DF will be the last of the complete "duds", but I doubt it.... Games are all about evolution, polish and gameplay ... fun. Even mmorpg's.
Exactly rigth and what Ive been saying for years. The geniuse of WoW is that it does cater to hardcore and casual players equally well. Since launch I would say its been sliding even more to the casual player which is why its had such a lasting success. The industry seems to be trending toward these niche games now liek DF (whether it intended to be or not) with small devout player bases. Personal I dont see how any game that caters to only one type of player can be considered a sucess as this article clearly demonstrated. DDO had to do a major reorganization to include rogue players who didnt want mandatory grouping and a totally instanced world. WaR's PvE experince at launch was absolutely horrible and theyve had to do major tinkering to make what was billed as a pvp game more quester/raider friendly. AoC and LoTR?...beautifully renderred games bu they had to have had major reworking to try to include pvp players. I just wish all these companies hadnt spent so much time on graphics and had the polished gameplay, UI, and pvp that would be expectd from any console game.
Sad thing is... Most of these failures have become almost acceptable to the MMO community. I have lost count of how many times I have heard the terms; “bugs are part of launch", "give the game six to twelve months and it will become a good game”, "people just do not understand coding, you fix one thing, and you break another". We are quite literally paying for mediocrity and, we just keep subscribing to it. No one, myself included, steps up and says “Screw this, give us a good game in the first week of launch or I am out’.
The only hyped game in the past 10 years that I did not jump on the bandwagon for was DFO. I hated beta and unlike AOC, Vanguard, SWG, EQ2, DoAC, WH, (all of which I was in alpha/beta and thought they all sucked but still paid to play at launch) I was not going to do it with Darkfall. I have decided that I am not going to make excuses for inept developers and publishers anymore. Maybe it is because I am getting older, (35 in a few weeks) but I refuse to invest $60.00 - $100. (Collectors edition) for a game then pay $192.00 (15.99x12) so that I can get a game that I played in beta but with a few slight improvements.
I am very anxiously awaiting the release of SW:ToR and I am currently in the Global Agenda Alpha (By far the best alpha I have ever been in) and I hope to see solid launch for once. *fingers crossed*
Sad thing is... Most of these failures have become almost acceptable to the MMO community. I have lost count of how many times I have heard the terms; “bugs are part of launch", "give the game six to twelve months and it will become a good game”, "people just do not understand coding, you fix one thing, and you break another". We are quite literally paying for mediocrity and, we just keep subscribing to it. No one, myself included, steps up and says “Screw this, give us a good game in the first week of launch or I am out’. The only hyped game in the past 10 years that I did not jump on the bandwagon for was DFO. I hated beta and unlike AOC, Vanguard, SWG, EQ2, DoAC, WH, (all of which I was in alpha/beta and thought they all sucked but still paid to play at launch) I was not going to do it with Darkfall. I have decided that I am not going to make excuses for inept developers and publishers anymore. Maybe it is because I am getting older, (35 in a few weeks) but I refuse to invest $60.00 - $100. (Collectors edition) for a game then pay $192.00 (15.99x12) so that I can get a game that I played in beta bit with a few slight improvements. I am very anxiously awaiting the release of SW:ToR and I am currently in the Global Agenda Alpha (By far the best alpha I have ever been in) and I hope to see solid launch for once. *fingers crossed*
I think this statement perfectly frames why many MMOs are so dismal. Bugs ARE a part of launch, it's a fact, if you've ever created a program / game / etc. on any level, you know this. It goes without saying that MMOs tend to be far more complex than other forms of games.
There has never been a bug free launch, no matter how much people's nostalgia says otherwise. Even blizzard had more than it's share of bugs, people simply just could tolerate it.
MMOs, though slowly, are very much improving. I'm not denying this is definitely a down year, but MMOs are launching bigger, better, and more or less with less bugs. However, the public's demands are escalating disproportionaly to what current developers can provide. The MMO community still demands to be an integral part in making these games, and yet we still cannot agree on: what makes a good game, how big should an MMO be at launch (how much should they bite off before it becomes too much), balance, economy, graphics, etc. It's no wonder that investors and developers alike are a little wary right now to 'break the mold'. The few that followed a successful formula got bashed (whether good games or not, people had 'already played that'.), the ones that decided to try something new also got bashed ('too kiddy, too different, not different enough, sucks, etc.) We have people complaining about Aion already, and it looks to be the best MMO out this year.
I think it's going to be difficult enough, nearly to the point of impossibility, to provide a 'good game at launch'; until we, as a community, are able to step back and let them develope. So much energy & resources is wasted on the hype machine, trying to control our outbursts, that it overwhelms most developers. The MMO is the only genre in which the players expects every game to be made 'for them', regardless of it's target audience. With most other games, you simply let it come out. try it, and either like it or not, it's as simply as that.
We need to get back to that if we want MMOs to thrive.
Its all about hype here... ... Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure... I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there.. Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure? Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..
This is gaming bigotry at its finest. Why is it that Darkfallers seek to discredit the opinions of other players through their gaming history, as if playing a game like EQ2 or LOTRO permanently "taints" a person, so that they cannot possibly have a valid opinion on a game like DF. It's a pretty flimsy tactic, and a desperate one as well.
If you wanted to buy an xbox360 but wanted to get some opinions on it before you buy it, would you listen to the opinion of someone who has played PS3 only and who bashes the xbox just because of its brand name?
same theory applies..
If you do not like the genre, you really have no weight in rating the game or calling it a failure..
Its all about hype here... ... Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure... I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there.. Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure? Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..
This is gaming bigotry at its finest. Why is it that Darkfallers seek to discredit the opinions of other players through their gaming history, as if playing a game like EQ2 or LOTRO permanently "taints" a person, so that they cannot possibly have a valid opinion on a game like DF. It's a pretty flimsy tactic, and a desperate one as well.
If you wanted to buy an xbox360 but wanted to get some opinions on it before you buy it, would you listen to the opinion of someone who has played PS3 only and who bashes the xbox just because of its brand name?
same theory applies..
If you do not like the genre, you really have no weight in rating the game or calling it a failure..
As for the rest of your "bigotry" rant.. umm..
Eh..
Obviously, given your analogy, you'd want the opinion of someone who has solid experience with both. There are plenty of those around. Additionally, contrary to popular stereotyping, a person enjoying a theme-park MMO does not preclude the possibility of that same person enjoying a sandbox-style one, any more than it prevents them from enjoying any other type of game or activity.
But to make the analogy more precise, it would be like saying anyone who has played a PS3 has zero credibility, no matter how much they've also played Xbox, or WII, or anything else ("anyone who's tainted themselves by playing a PS3 can't possibly understand or enjoy the Xbox - he's one of those PS3 people" ).
That's where most of the DF fanbois are quick to judge with kneejerk defensive reactions - they attribute a person's not liking DF to not liking or understanding that genre or style of MMO. In their minds, it's just not possible that those that don't like it - even those that like the genre - just think its a bad game.
Comments
While I agree that Mythic and Mark Jacobs specifically looked at Wow and tried to take things from it technically (as well as Wow's customers), that's in no way Wow's fault.
Wow is a game. It has it's own audience long before WAR came along and doesn't try and steal other MMO's base. How can a game be responsible for a whole other game flopping around with poor direction? It can't, because it's just a game. Neither are Wow's designers to blame.. are you suggesting that they should have made Wow a little less popular so no one would want to copy it?
Saying Wow is one of the reasons for Mark Jacob's bad decisions with WAR is like blaming Pamela Anderson for the severe scarring of a homely girl's lips and tatas after her father pushed her into having plastic surgery so she'd be more popular like Pam.
Mythic and Mark Jacobs are the only one responsible for WAR flop.Kaplan & Team + Blizzard marketing did a great job.They knew what was needed and missing at that particular time .Casual gamers/hardcore raiders dreamed it,Blizzard made it and they won....home run
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
As I said, I wouldn't be defending Darkfall at all. That's not my place.
I'm looking at the standards he set as determining what a "flop" is, and I'm wondering if he's using that across the board as a measuring stick. If he is, he's including quite a few games with that. Not just WAR and AoC.
It seemed rather narrow to me as a defining mark.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I noticed that all the games except DDO launched way too early here.
And the editors and voters could not know that the companies would mess up the release that much, the key to success is releasing a product that is actually finished from the start, the consumers don't want a half done buggy thing that should have stayed another year in development. I am sure that VG, AoC and WAR would have done better if they fixed the problems with the games before release.
As for DDO, I think the choice of world lost a lot of subs to it, Forgotten realms, Dragon lance or even Ravenloft would have done better. But what really stole subs from it was Guildwars, even though the games are different most people who don't mind instances prefer the better programmed game without monthly fees.
Warhammer has been out has been out for 38 weeks and is substantially under a 50% retention rate.
Would you call Warhammer a failure? Plenty wouldn't. But by your criteria its far worse of a failure than Darkfall, so you probably should revise that.
Well, the rest of the game devs didn't say stuff like Barnett before launch.
Still, I wouldn't consider it a total failure but Mythic did a bad job of making fans of the original IP happy, they strayed to close to Wow and the people who likes Wow are playing Wow, while the people who likes Warhammer got upset because that the game is too far from the RPG and tabletop.
Mythic could have done a lot better, if they had mixed DaoC with WFRPG we would have gotten an awesome game, now it is just ok.
Why does it always seem the people who hate fanbois have more passion for hating them then the fans have for thier game?? Seems dilusional. My personal opinion is that people always like to hear about themselves being right, so you sit on either side of the fence.......you love or hate a game, that way when you defend or attack each other you have people backing you up. In a way youve made a little community you can relate to for guidence........so sad.
If people want to see totally new and great games more risks need to be taking (preferably by big companies...we all know why..cough...DO...cough) at least they had the balls to do somthing different. Devs need to drop the whole.....this is how you make a MMORPG pamphlet theyve all been given and re-think the whole genre.
I think the real question is What is going wrong and why isn't it glaringly obvious? All these hyped games don't really deliver what the players are clamoring for. In the case of AoC and WAR maybe it really is the whole hype/release too early issue. After seeing what LOTRO has done since launch, much better game now. What AoC is planning for this month, actually looks like the most needed changes. DDO made a ton of changes and is still alive and kicking. Even WAR is making changes and improving the game.
I just have to wonder what the problem is, or is this just a result of general human disgruntlement. No matter what is done, or made or given, people will ALWAYS find something to gripe about.
Although....playing WAR...a certain "something" was missing. Playing AoC that certain "something went missing about halfway to the level cap". In EQ2, "something" is missing. LOTRO at launch, "something" was missing(but is now miraculously there). Just wish I could define what that "something" is.
Exactly, release way too early for their own good.
Seeing the numbers of players base swell when they are hyping up the game, the devs have a wrong impression to release the game now and hope to carry on with the rest of the games, thinking the player base will stay and give them enough time to finish.
Another flaw they make is trying to complete with WoW. Thinking if they release early than they will capture those players away from WoW coming x-pac.
Etc etc etc.... just wrong decisions after decisions that all these companies have made. And it will continue to haunt them for the rest of the game life span.
On a side note, players always say WoW just take the best out of other games and put it together and its actually nothing new. If that's so, than it must be a really very simple plan! Since you just need to copy and paste.
But how come till now, none other company can do it?
RIP Orc Choppa
Wood's article summs up pretty subjectively what happend the past years at the genre.
I never saw Vanguard Saga of Heroes in a more distinctive position, even though imho it would deserve one.
anyway
right now i am all dfo. Still, what lures at the end of the tunnel? remains to be seen!
Frankly, bad designs are bad designs regardless of the hype. I think that us players are giving way too much benefit-of-doubt for the game designers by saying that their game would have been ground-breaking would they have spent some more time internally developing it. After all, the success isn't measured by the internal development back-slapping but by the gaming community. The games mentioned here that have amended the situation from the dreadful launch are not changing their course due to lack of pre-launch polish but due to lack of pre-launch thought. The hyped ideas weren't just fun no matter how much touted. Certainly, adding features that players are missing is nice and dandy but doesn't that just mean that the game developers themselves have ran out of ideas already ages ago when the "hyped" features of today's MMO market are the same you could see on MUDs at early 90s.
The gamers step into virgin worlds armed solely by their preconceived ideas as of what would be fun to them. If the game fails to deliver on those fronts the game is a failure. Most can cope with bumpy launch if what they find underneath the purely technical issues is worth investing in. I think that WoW's launch (or EVE's) is a paramount evidence on this: no-one can say that the game's launch was particularily classy with crashing servers days-in-days-out but the core game-mechanics were fun and allowed you to enjoy from the first quest onwards. It might be popular to say that WoW is merely a copycat of the grand ideas of its predecessors but would that be the case also DDO, AoC, WAR and Darkfall would have been successful to the same measure as people could have endured the choppy ride for they knew what a gem they had. History tells a different story. At times it feels that gaming industry as a whole is entering the same era of sequels as the movie industry has been for a few decades where risk is too costly for anyone to take. Waiting for the HBO of MMOs.
For me that "something" is a genuine, tactile, grab you out of your socks and shake you sense of being able to create something of my own, grow it and have the potential for it to matter in the world. Examples:
EvE: Corporations and their ability to stake out territory, gather resources, manufacture, form alliance, wars
DAoC: RvR. Now, I'm not talking about the PvP aspect as so many do when they say RvR. I mean the concepts of having a homeland, having areas to struggle over, having meaningful reasons to do so.
Asheron's Call: The main, monthly advanced story line; Having dev controlled NPCs of note (in the lore) show up in towns and interact with players (port to Teth from Bael'zaron anyone? Better bring your wings!)
SWG: A make sense crafting, CREATION ability. Devs focus so much on combat and tearing things/people down and not near enough on a deeply thought out player world building mechanics.
Horizons: Tying this in to the creation aspects of SWG just to add the concept of having destroyed areas and allows players to reclaim and rebuild them. Again, also vesting players in the game world.
I'm not worried about combat. Combat is leaps and bounds ahead of all other aspects in the MMOs being made by all houses (the big boys and the indies) today. But combat "because I can" does not create a long lasting, get me invested to care, cause me to fork over money to you for years, clincher.
People yammer that it would take 1-2 years more development time to do all that well. Well, maybe that needs to be considered. It may even take a few companies going under because their "recoup our investment on box sales and a few months subscriptions" formula that seems the idea of the day in dev-land just doesn't pan out.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
Everything about this game has sparked controversy, from a release that has phased in new players, to controversial reviews and the developer reactions to them, to the nature of the game itself. It is far too soon to tell what the future holds for Darkfall, but its development and release has captured the attention, both positive and negative, of many MMO fans.
This has to be one of the single best conclusions I have ever read. Mr Wood - for blatant fear of not upsetting one camp or another - has chosen the road of total neutrality and is sitting with his legs well and truly swinging on both sides of the fence. I read the article up until this point and saw some pretty well placed conclusions on each game. Would have been nice to see your thoughts on the game up until this point, rather than a level of cowardise :-P
That isn't a criticism. I can understand why you did but it's not what I wanted to see :-P
http://www.themmoquest.com - MMO commentary from an overly angry brit. OFFICIALLY LAUNCHED!
Are you serious? You're going to throw out his whole artical because he didn't take a stance on Darkfall?
I feel exacly the same.
These games aren't 100% finish at all at the release. This is so frustrating... On my PS3, whem I buy a game, this game is completed. why not MMO's???...
The conclusions reached with the other gameswere reached after looking at their performance over a much longer period of time. There ins't much to say about Darkfall yet that can be backed up with long term evidence other than what was said.
Same days I am accused of being biased, and some days I am accused of not being biased enough. Today was the latter, I supopose.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Its all about hype here... ...
Some people have no true intentions of even liking or even playing certain games but will hype and judge them anyway.. And then when it comes out (and even though they had no intentions of playing it anyway) they see it as a failure...
I just fail to see how someone who has only played games like LOTRO and EQ2 and WoW, can effectively enjoy a game like Darkfall.. 2 different styles of gameplay at work there..
Its obvious it wasn't made for everyone, so why does everyone get to call it a failure?
Thats like having a bunch of hip hop thugs calling metallica a failure because its rock music and they don't like it..
"Interesting Fact:
In the short history of MMORPG.com awards, neither the Reader's Choice nor Editorial award winners for Most Anticipated Game has ever gone on to win a Game of the Year, Best Game, Best New Game or Favorite Game award in the next year"
Why, this is the most simple and pure fact of games:
HYPE IS BAD.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
That's the issue of objectivity. Most people (fanbois and haters on the extreme of the scale) have absolutely no idea what objectivity means. They think in terms of "universal good" and "universal bad". A hater does not like a certain combat mechanism of a game - he goes out yelling and crying that it's "BAD", universally. People should finally understand what "apples and oranges" mean. But they need to grow up first, and it just won't happen to everyone. Ever.
DB
Denial makes one look a lot dumber than he/she actually is.
This is gaming bigotry at its finest. Why is it that Darkfallers seek to discredit the opinions of other players through their gaming history, as if playing a game like EQ2 or LOTRO permanently "taints" a person, so that they cannot possibly have a valid opinion on a game like DF. It's a pretty flimsy tactic, and a desperate one as well.
It is, in fact, possible for the same gamer to like both PvE and PvP focused MMOs (and RTS games, and FPS games, and sports sims, etc).
Darkfall players keep making the tired claim - "this game isn't for everybody", but still get annoyed and defensive when everybody who tries it doesn't like it. In my opinion, that overused phrase has become a dodge, meant to deflect criticism from the weaknesses and breaks in the game.
"This game isn't for everybody" was supposed to cover the harsh FFA PvP with full loot nature of the game, not the fact that DF is a paper-thin, out of tune, shallow "sandbox" MMO at the present time.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.
Very well said. All this old Games had more or less troubles with their release yet people stayed or came back. LotrO and Eve are pretty good examples how they turned things arround. Maybe it is all about this hyping, though I seriously doubt this, or it is more about: Less talking, more action .
Most Devs tend to talk a lot but do very little to get their MMO back on track. That's the key for a successful MMO, I guess, as long as they keep working on their game (patches, content etc) . Mythic only started to develop WAR because DAoC became less and less popular but instead to fix this game and to keep trying to get people interested again they decided to go for something new instead, of course it couldn't have all worked out...esp. not if they go with this kind of thinking at a new project.
Eve online however shows how it can work if a company won't give up...it is worth to follow an idea even if it's sometimes hard.
This is a new kind of mindset though it was always one way or another there...that people want right away to be successfully and at best remain successfully but that's not how life works, for your ideas and visions you still have to work and sometimes you have to go through hell and back till you see the day your ideas become real.
It goes to show that not just anyone can make a successful mmo. So many average-failure type mmos out today the genre really needs good companies to make good games again. I wish I was playing a good mmo right now but unfortunately there is nothing to feel good about mmos today. Thank god for fps,rpg and rts games to keep me busy while someone decides to make a good mmo again.
Exactly rigth and what Ive been saying for years. The geniuse of WoW is that it does cater to hardcore and casual players equally well. Since launch I would say its been sliding even more to the casual player which is why its had such a lasting success. The industry seems to be trending toward these niche games now liek DF (whether it intended to be or not) with small devout player bases. Personal I dont see how any game that caters to only one type of player can be considered a sucess as this article clearly demonstrated. DDO had to do a major reorganization to include rogue players who didnt want mandatory grouping and a totally instanced world. WaR's PvE experince at launch was absolutely horrible and theyve had to do major tinkering to make what was billed as a pvp game more quester/raider friendly. AoC and LoTR?...beautifully renderred games bu they had to have had major reworking to try to include pvp players. I just wish all these companies hadnt spent so much time on graphics and had the polished gameplay, UI, and pvp that would be expectd from any console game.
Sad thing is... Most of these failures have become almost acceptable to the MMO community. I have lost count of how many times I have heard the terms; “bugs are part of launch", "give the game six to twelve months and it will become a good game”, "people just do not understand coding, you fix one thing, and you break another". We are quite literally paying for mediocrity and, we just keep subscribing to it. No one, myself included, steps up and says “Screw this, give us a good game in the first week of launch or I am out’.
The only hyped game in the past 10 years that I did not jump on the bandwagon for was DFO. I hated beta and unlike AOC, Vanguard, SWG, EQ2, DoAC, WH, (all of which I was in alpha/beta and thought they all sucked but still paid to play at launch) I was not going to do it with Darkfall. I have decided that I am not going to make excuses for inept developers and publishers anymore. Maybe it is because I am getting older, (35 in a few weeks) but I refuse to invest $60.00 - $100. (Collectors edition) for a game then pay $192.00 (15.99x12) so that I can get a game that I played in beta but with a few slight improvements.
I am very anxiously awaiting the release of SW:ToR and I am currently in the Global Agenda Alpha (By far the best alpha I have ever been in) and I hope to see solid launch for once. *fingers crossed*
I think this statement perfectly frames why many MMOs are so dismal. Bugs ARE a part of launch, it's a fact, if you've ever created a program / game / etc. on any level, you know this. It goes without saying that MMOs tend to be far more complex than other forms of games.
There has never been a bug free launch, no matter how much people's nostalgia says otherwise. Even blizzard had more than it's share of bugs, people simply just could tolerate it.
MMOs, though slowly, are very much improving. I'm not denying this is definitely a down year, but MMOs are launching bigger, better, and more or less with less bugs. However, the public's demands are escalating disproportionaly to what current developers can provide. The MMO community still demands to be an integral part in making these games, and yet we still cannot agree on: what makes a good game, how big should an MMO be at launch (how much should they bite off before it becomes too much), balance, economy, graphics, etc. It's no wonder that investors and developers alike are a little wary right now to 'break the mold'. The few that followed a successful formula got bashed (whether good games or not, people had 'already played that'.), the ones that decided to try something new also got bashed ('too kiddy, too different, not different enough, sucks, etc.) We have people complaining about Aion already, and it looks to be the best MMO out this year.
I think it's going to be difficult enough, nearly to the point of impossibility, to provide a 'good game at launch'; until we, as a community, are able to step back and let them develope. So much energy & resources is wasted on the hype machine, trying to control our outbursts, that it overwhelms most developers. The MMO is the only genre in which the players expects every game to be made 'for them', regardless of it's target audience. With most other games, you simply let it come out. try it, and either like it or not, it's as simply as that.
We need to get back to that if we want MMOs to thrive.
This is gaming bigotry at its finest. Why is it that Darkfallers seek to discredit the opinions of other players through their gaming history, as if playing a game like EQ2 or LOTRO permanently "taints" a person, so that they cannot possibly have a valid opinion on a game like DF. It's a pretty flimsy tactic, and a desperate one as well.
If you wanted to buy an xbox360 but wanted to get some opinions on it before you buy it, would you listen to the opinion of someone who has played PS3 only and who bashes the xbox just because of its brand name?
same theory applies..
If you do not like the genre, you really have no weight in rating the game or calling it a failure..
As for the rest of your "bigotry" rant.. umm..
Eh..
This is gaming bigotry at its finest. Why is it that Darkfallers seek to discredit the opinions of other players through their gaming history, as if playing a game like EQ2 or LOTRO permanently "taints" a person, so that they cannot possibly have a valid opinion on a game like DF. It's a pretty flimsy tactic, and a desperate one as well.
If you wanted to buy an xbox360 but wanted to get some opinions on it before you buy it, would you listen to the opinion of someone who has played PS3 only and who bashes the xbox just because of its brand name?
same theory applies..
If you do not like the genre, you really have no weight in rating the game or calling it a failure..
As for the rest of your "bigotry" rant.. umm..
Eh..
Obviously, given your analogy, you'd want the opinion of someone who has solid experience with both. There are plenty of those around. Additionally, contrary to popular stereotyping, a person enjoying a theme-park MMO does not preclude the possibility of that same person enjoying a sandbox-style one, any more than it prevents them from enjoying any other type of game or activity.
But to make the analogy more precise, it would be like saying anyone who has played a PS3 has zero credibility, no matter how much they've also played Xbox, or WII, or anything else ("anyone who's tainted themselves by playing a PS3 can't possibly understand or enjoy the Xbox - he's one of those PS3 people" ).
That's where most of the DF fanbois are quick to judge with kneejerk defensive reactions - they attribute a person's not liking DF to not liking or understanding that genre or style of MMO. In their minds, it's just not possible that those that don't like it - even those that like the genre - just think its a bad game.
Hell hath no fury like an MMORPG player scorned.