English is not my native tongue either. Most browsers have spell check built in.. it's only a matter of right-clicking the underlined word and correcting it.
@ Cynthe
Okay. I understand your point. I understand that sexism is bad. However, let's not kid ourselves and lets at least be realistic if we are going to have a discussion on this subject. There will always be exceptions, but I think it is safe to say that the majority of hardcore MMORPG gamers are male. If you really want to debate me on that, I'm not willing to continue this conversation...
Given that the majority of hardcore MMORPG (and most likely all video games, although this assumption isn't really required so I'm not going to be so broad) players are male, I think it's safe to say that there is something preventing females from being interested, getting into the game, etc. Although no one has pin-pointed what that "something" is, I personally think it's accessibility and fun of the game. Males are more likely to spend 40 hours in a week sitting in front of the computer playing a game than a female is (for whatever reason). However, if a game can be fulfilling for hardcore gamers AND be still fun for the casual gamer, I feel that it would have more chance of attracting females. I don't think that customization, housing, crafting, or whatever gender-based suggestions were made would do anything in the long run. It may attract a few more women, but in the end, it comes down to: "Can I play this game for and hour every day and still have a fulfilling experience?" I suppose you could say that your experience with a game is what you make of it, but if a developer can incorporate casual game-play that can still compete with the hardcore elements of the game, they will have made a great game.
I'm not saying I know the answer. I don't. I honestly don't know of a good way to have this balance without being unfair to the hardcore gamers. Guild Wars had an interesting idea. However, its flaws lie in the fact that it isn't (at least for me) very fulfilling to create a character that is already maxed out. That takes away alot of the game. I think though, with some tweaking, a similar system could work.
Touching on the original subject, I doubt that the subject matter of the game (in this case, "Real Life + Zombies?" vs. "Fantasy") will make enough impact to truly make a difference in the community. I mean, okay.. Hello Kitty Online probably has more females playing than males (unless you're into that I guess), but in this case I'd actually be more inclined to suggest that girls would be more interested in fantasy than something like a realistic world with demons and zombies.
Great post! No I see your point, but I don't see any new games catering only to the hardcore class anymore either. It's not just that they are mostly male, they are mostly of a certain age demographic and most probably don't have families (girlfriend, a wife don't count).
I also would be curious to see what you consider hardcore, because even the most harcore games I've tried girls were there too. What I consider hardcore is basically anything with a long grind, levels OR raids. FFXI is hardcore to me, lots of girls in there most of them may not participate in end game but then again many do, and many guys couldn't be bothered with end game. I'm not sure if I consider PvP hardcore at all, you fight you die, you fight you win, you go for it again. Unless they were severe penalties to dieng like loot drops, I don't think that would be popular with very many women at all, but then again it's not popular with most of the mmo population either.
Like you said, anything that has an intense grind is what I consider "hardcore". Some examples are FFXI, WoW (although the grind is getting easier with every patch), Age of Conan, etc. I think you get the general idea.
Also, I didn't say there weren't women at end game in hardcore MMO's, I simply said that the balance of males to females is rather tipped toward the former.
Something that may be interesting to try is what I consider a "Basic" vs. "Advanced" mode. The best analogy I can give is Google. There are two ways you can search. If you are lazy (like me) you just type stuff in the box and hit search! Simple! However, if you want to get more out of your search, you can hit Advanced Search and that allows you to select additional filters. Think of the basic search as the casual gamers way to play, and the advanced search as the hardcore players way of playing.
All the details have not been worked out in my head, but basically casual gamers sacrifice some customization choices for an increased rate of experience so they can still play the game in its fullness but are not forced to put in as much time and effort. Hardcore gamers may level up slower but may be allowed to allocate their stat points where they want after every level. Obviously, there would need additional perks for the hardcore gamer, but you get the idea.
"I take more pleasure in collecting things, decorating and finding that perfect body piece to match my boots..." -Cynthe "with the ability to change how I look, what I am wearing, a way to stand out" -Swanea I start to see a pattern here ... and I also see how I wasn't far off with my first post *studies his nails* p.s. Let's skip the 'game should be good and fun' arguments and assume that TSW will be 'good' and 'fun' since those aren't wishes that set aside female players from male ones. We all want those, right?
You're telling me guys could care less about their armor matching? Really? Guys don't want to look unique?
I've no idea what your first post means at all other then being flippant and there's really no use for that. /shrug
I don't think guys care too much about accesserising, no.
hmmmm well if you're talking about pretty pink barrettes I could see that, but according to many conversations I've had a matching piece set, pauldrons and chest for example is somewhat important. Not as important as the stats maybe but you can't tell me it doesn't bother the majority to have a rag tag armor set where the colors and general look doesn't match well, or look good together to put it even more plainly.
Otherwise you'd have to say that dyieng armor and appearance slots are only good for women.
Oh, guys are very conscious of their character's looks as well. At least I am. My experience with female gamers however, is that they put much more time and effort in aquiring apparel and clothing which don't serve a purpose in combat which makes them able to vary their looks a lot more. They are also much more interested in the social aspect to mmo's ... once again; in my experience. It does however reflect their avarage tendencies in real life somewhat ... that is ... in my experience.
I do agree with you that there are many different kinds of people with as many different kinds of preferences (one of the most ruthless gankers I met in WOW, for instance, was a girl. And she wasn't interested in collecting an expansive wardrobe at all).
BUT if you want to discuss factors which would increase the way a game attracts a specific gender, you can't avoid talking stereotypes and that was what I was doing. There ARE certain aspects to an mmorpg which would guarantee a more entertaining game for typical girls out there, just like there are aspects which are interesting for a typical guy (like AOC marketeers always seem to play those shallow 'brutal', 'bloody' and 'sexy' cards). So lets cut around the chase and have the guts to stereotype ourselves, or in this case; stereotype girls, I say
Just joined this site and I can't find anyone I've met there who would agree with any of this.. So I still stand by what I said, don't worry about attracting more girls just make a game with solid and a variety of features.
I also have a small list of games made for girls that I'd like to eradicate with a laser gun, you know what I'm talking about those DS take care of a baby games or find your perfect boyfriend. (I mean WTF?) I'm not sure on which planet people think this does anyone an actual service. If anything you are putting people in one cube and telling them "here that's what you like and we want your money so have fun!" Truly the best games are the one where the devs actually put their hearts and minds into not some bubble gum crap where a roomful of industry professionals sat in a room and decided, hey Desperate Wives is a really popular TV show with women, let's make that into a game! YES! And make sure they can print off coupons to get retail discounts. Yay!
While that may attract a certain group it won't do anything for the actual GAMER. In fact you'll just make us want to punch you in the face.
Now when it comes to young girls gaming I have a 7 year old daughter and she sees Barbie games and Princess games and wants to play them. So we rent those or sometimes buy some, and you know what? She'll play them for a few hours, but once she's done with them, it's time to move on. Those games don't stay with her, they're cute but they are not meaningful, well there's the rare one like Disney Princess Enchanted Journey though the difference here is the game is an actual adventure.
Here are the games she plays over and again and never shelves:
Okami, Super Smash Bros, Super Mario Galaxy and the Dog Island.
These are not girls games they are just games, one is geared towards kids and the other are just for anyone. The majority of women who play casual puzzle games, sims and nothing else don't know any better and are stuck in the stereotype of who enjoys those games. My husband hates shooters, hates PvP in mmos, never reads quests in MMOs, not big on role playing games at all, but loves RTS games. /shrug
Again not so much a matter of what to do to bring in the women or the boys for that matter, but what kind of experience do we want the player to feel? Girls will grow up and if gaming has been part of their lives they won't have any qualms about being hardcore, casual, or not even interested. ^_^
Man I wasn't intending to have another rant.. Yike. :P
Oh wait just wanted to add to the Sims example, I don't know it's history as it never interested me, but I doubt some dude sat around and said "Hey let's make a game women are really going to love!" No he probably sat around and said: "Hey let's make this type of game I bet it would be kinda cool" And lo and behold it was a massive hit with women (and people in general).
I definitely am interested in TSW, I'm not a very big gamer but I like MMOGs, and I've always loved this kind of genre in movies, and books, so if they do it right, this game could be great.
Just joined this site and I can't find anyone I've met there who would agree with any of this.. So I still stand by what I said, don't worry about attracting more...
...massive hit with women (and people in general).
Cynthe, I agree with you completely. Games like Cooking Mama and Gardening Mama should be deep fried, eaten, defecated, and burned. They are honestly terrible games and only hurt women by creating a stereotype that needs to go already...
On the other hand, those games provide a certain service. Often times, young girls are drawn to those games simply because it looks like something designed for them. It might not be a game that they love forever, but if it leaves the player saying "That game was alright, but I'd like to try something different", then it has improved the gaming industry in the sense that a new gamer was formed. Those games do not have much substance but they serve as a hook for potential gamers.
Just joined this site and I can't find anyone I've met there who would agree with any of this.. So I still stand by what I said, don't worry about attracting more...
...massive hit with women (and people in general).
Cynthe, I agree with you completely. Games like Cooking Mama and Gardening Mama should be deep fried, eaten, defecated, and burned. They are honestly terrible games and only hurt women by creating a stereotype that needs to go already...
On the other hand, those games provide a certain service. Often times, young girls are drawn to those games simply because it looks like something designed for them. It might not be a game that they love forever, but if it leaves the player saying "That game was alright, but I'd like to try something different", then it has improved the gaming industry in the sense that a new gamer was formed. Those games do not have much substance but they serve as a hook for potential gamers.
;P Actually Cooking Mama isn't a bad game, it is terrible on the Wii because for some reason the wiimote won't cooperate. While that game would seem degaratory it's targeted towards any casual gamer imo and goes more into the family/seniors category then just girls.
I agree that these games offer a point of entry and that's really great. I would also like that gamers encourage others to participate no matter their age or gender. I'm not talking about letting your kid play Bioshock but you know what I mean. ;P
What's really bugging me right now is that casual is very 'cool' in the media right now and you'll have super models walking around with a DS or a wii mote going "Look I'm hawt I got a game thingy here..." This is only adding to the misconceptions imo. Hot girls are hot because they work out, no other reason. Those who game and those who don't. But anyway I'm dragging this way off topic.
I have a given some thought to the OP again and these are the things that as a girl really like in an MMO, I can't speak for everyone of course:
- No Classes, love to distribute my skills and points however I want.
-Customization: This falls under the first point a bit, being able to customize your skills or your 'class' is a major plus. Aesthetically love to make my character my own, unique faces, hair, clothing, armor ect.. Armor should not be too stat dependent. Though it's ok if it is.
-Immersion. Extremely important! It's supposed to be an online world after all. Too many games recently feel more like a guided tour of a world. Not really a place where your character lives. Housing is a good way to anchor yourself, or some sort of construction within the world, to say hey I made that and it's here and people can all see it.
-Side stuff to do, goes into immersion and general fun. Collections for prizes, pets, mini games, a card game that doesn't require real money trades (yo $OE pfft)
-An economy that makes sense and where people can make profit equally, not have the one or two crafts that make the real money ect, harvest nodes that look part of the world.
-Quests that are well written, put some back into it! This game should be puzzleriffic and I trust Funcom with their writers. So not too worried on that score.
-GM events, I loooooooove those really brings everything to life. Whether it's as simple as a quest or something that's world changing it's all good.
On the topic of girls not big on the "hardcore" aspect of gaming...you should also factor in the joys of anonymity that the internet provides. Long before Vent/TeamSpeak/XBox Live, and the like, I never gave out my gender when playing - at the time, putting yourself out there as a girl quickly ruined the experience for you as the more..unsavory types usually began harassing you. It still happens in games now, so I know quite a few girls who don't wave a banner for Venus.
That aside, females just want a good game, same as any of their male counterparts.
OP: I really think a lot if it depends on how FC markets TSW. If they go the way of Conan and key on boobies and the female characters (NPC and PC) as sex objects then a lot of females (in my opinion) will be turned off. As a female gamer I can get past that stuff, though I still think it's bad marketing because you're focusing on male gamers when female gamers are a viable market as well, but many female gamers I know can't.
It'll be interesting to see how their marketing model unfolds.
None of the above? This is what you need to 'attract' female gamers, are you ready? . . . . . . . . A GOOD game. ^_^
There's a good amount of truth to that. Whereas a guy is very likely to persist through a game that has issues for the sake of enjoying the components he likes, women seem more likely to just walk away from a game with frustrating or 'annoying' elements and just pick up another one. If girls are the same way, I don't know, but women simply are a lot better at walking away from a game with 'annoying' features than men are.
I've used that word in quotes twice for a reason. Of the women I have spoken with regarding games and gaming, it is the word they have most commonly use to describe the feature that caused them to leave. They had no hatred for the game, the developers, the playerbase, etc... just a simple statement about what they didn't care for, often stated in a very casual and matter of fact tone.
-- Whammy - a 64x64 miniRPG - RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right? - FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
More? I was just a in fellowship in Lotro. 6 people, 5 with voice, one without. 2 were clearly female, as said, no way to know about the last one. If the last one was female then the split is 3/3 male/female.
In my opinion, lots of female players are already invovled with MMO's. Just that certain MMO's got a bad rep for being overun by 12yr olds who jump on anyone who is not a white 12 year old boy like them and so women either don't play or keep it quiet about it.
But in my experience there are a LOT of women playing Lotro, just got to be part of a kin/group where women don't feel they are going to be harrased the moment they reveal their sexe.
TSW is going to attact females if Funcom manages to convince them they are not going to be harrased.
When did race come in as a factor to playing an MMO? How can you even tell? Seems like thats taking things a step further. An unnecessary step further in my opinion.
I don’t see a need to “balance the community”, I am quite happy that in life men and women do not have to do everything together. Clearly the OP thinks we have to socially engineer more women to take part regardless of whether the women want to, or we as men want them to.
I would like to know how more women would “improve the community.” Following this odd idea perhaps we need to make sure there are more children and pensioners too? And what about making sure every ethnic group is represented? Surely that will improve the community too?
The idea that we need to make MMO’s a reflection of our RL social demographic is vacuous.
I am looking forward to tSW being a great game, if it is I am sure we will be welcoming lots of women to the game, as they are as good as we are at spotting a gem. Nuff said.
Sorry for the spelling on stigma back there. Either way, females are no different when it comes to playing games. What stigma I am refering to is that what has been explained on here and by others in society that do not play games. The comments like "Only fat chicks play games" and "Real girls only play games with social settings" is what I refer to. The reason why this stigma came about is because of how women, in general, react to video games. But this is becoming increasingly false as the years pass by and gamers of the opposite sex are now taking notice that video games are not just for guys.
But I stand on my last statement, its gameplay and settings that will bring the females, not the social or non-medieval setting of the game. Its like Cynthe said, she's just another MMO fan, she just happens to probably look better than most of us, of course, I am speaking only for myself
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
I hate to sound stereotypical but female players are into pretty avatars that games like Aion offer...plus a lot of customization that goes into it...like hair, make-up, cute outfits, and shoes to match...lol
Hate to sound stereotypical but this is the truth...and also girls prefer fantasy setting over real ones...if you don't believe me try this pick up line..."hey do you like the movie labyrinth?"
I am a female gamer. I live in a house of two female gamers, myself and my partner. We are consummate geeks, our home being decorated in flows of geek ranging from Sci-Fi, to Comic-Books, to Horror and everything in between.
This game, and its classless, skill based, horror themed ideas, is probably the largest draw for me in the world of upcoming MMOs other than SW:TOR and for completely different reasons. SW:TOR is SW and Bioware. I will play it to play KoToR 3-12 online, fully expecting rails, walls and gameplay features reminisce of single player gaming experiences, in an MMO like world. But for a true immersive, create a living breathing character in a living breathing world, rich experience....I will go with Secret World. Lovecraftian horror and its ilk ranks among my favorite of all genres and was and is a heavy influence in my tabletop gaming sessions where appropriate.
I believe this game will attract the "right" sort of girls. The ones you want to play with. Who are playing for more than "be a pretty elf princess experience". Instead bringing characterization and femininity to the table in the game world without being attention whoring little trollops who just want to tee-hee.
This will draw your more mature female mentalities and I think, we can look forward to an amazing population.
I am a female gamer. I live in a house of two female gamers, myself and my partner. We are consummate geeks, our home being decorated in flows of geek ranging from Sci-Fi, to Comic-Books, to Horror and everything in between.
This game, and its classless, skill based, horror themed ideas, is probably the largest draw for me in the world of upcoming MMOs other than SW:TOR and for completely different reasons. SW:TOR is SW and Bioware. I will play it to play KoToR 3-12 online. But for a true immersive, create a living breathing character in a living breathing world....I will go with Secret World. Lovecraftian horror and its ilk ranks among my favorite of all genres and was and in a heavy influence in my tabletop gaming sessions where appropriate. I believe this game will attract the "right" sort of girls. The ones you want to play with. Who are playing for more than "be a pretty elf princess experience". Instead bringing characterization and femininity to the table in the game world without being attention whoring little trollops who just want to tee-hee.
This will draw your more mature female mentalities and I think, we can look forward to an amazing population.
Alexis Diana Dority
*Smiles*
There is another horror game that fills the same requrements: CCP/White wolfs "world of darkness online". I think those 2 games will compete about the female game population, it is kinda Delta green against Vampire the masquerade.
My money is on White wolf but this game could be very good also, time will tell. In pen and paper RPGs however there is a lot more female gamers in WoD than Cthulu/Delta green.
May the best game win, I will try both (No, I am not a female gamer, it is me on the avatar but I like horror a lot).
I hate to sound stereotypical but female players are into pretty avatars that games like Aion offer...plus a lot of customization that goes into it...like hair, make-up, cute outfits, and shoes to match...lol Hate to sound stereotypical but this is the truth...and also girls prefer fantasy setting over real ones...if you don't believe me try this pick up line..."hey do you like the movie labyrinth?" and see what happens....rofl
Most girls I know likes horror. And most girls I know that games are a lot into roleplaying, I think this game will offer more of that than Aion. It is true that female gamers like how stuff look but that doesn't mean they would actually prefer fantasy to horror.
To quote Blackie Lawless: "Scream until you like it..."
I am a female gamer. I live in a house of two female gamers, myself and my partner. We are consummate geeks, our home being decorated in flows of geek ranging from Sci-Fi, to Comic-Books, to Horror and everything in between.
This game, and its classless, skill based, horror themed ideas, is probably the largest draw for me in the world of upcoming MMOs other than SW:TOR and for completely different reasons. SW:TOR is SW and Bioware. I will play it to play KoToR 3-12 online. But for a true immersive, create a living breathing character in a living breathing world....I will go with Secret World. Lovecraftian horror and its ilk ranks among my favorite of all genres and was and in a heavy influence in my tabletop gaming sessions where appropriate. I believe this game will attract the "right" sort of girls. The ones you want to play with. Who are playing for more than "be a pretty elf princess experience". Instead bringing characterization and femininity to the table in the game world without being attention whoring little trollops who just want to tee-hee.
This will draw your more mature female mentalities and I think, we can look forward to an amazing population.
Alexis Diana Dority
*Smiles*
There is another horror game that fills the same requrements: CCP/White wolfs "world of darkness online". I think those 2 games will compete about the female game population, it is kinda Delta green against Vampire the masquerade.
My money is on White wolf but this game could be very good also, time will tell. In pen and paper RPGs however there is a lot more female gamers in WoD than Cthulu/Delta green.
May the best game win, I will try both (No, I am not a female gamer, it is me on the avatar but I like horror a lot).
As a huge fan and player of White Wolf's Tabletop lineup I must say I agree with you. But here is how my choice has been made thus far.
CCP's WOD MMO is rumored by people I know at WW Games to be launching sans the ability to be a supernatural yourself, or at least sans the ability to be a Vampire for some odd reason. Vampire, being the largest draw White Wolf has for the average female gamer (to whit more female gamers buy Vampire products and are into Vamp sexiness than they are into Uratha and other lineups) and not being included in the launch of the MMO will deter many girl gamers imho. Of course if and only if rumors are true does any of what I just said apply. If Vampires are in I expect Secret World will be banking on my next point.
CCP has no history in character customization, their one MMO; you get the chance to play a ship. AoC for all its myriad of faults, had a gorgeous character customization system, and had it launched with hair length sliders as planned, it would have been among the best out there. And still ranks in the top 5 in my mind. Add to this the leveless infinitely customizable skill framework purportedly in this game and you have an amazing series of tools for roleplay. One of the largest draws of the female gamer.
Time will tell if you are right. May the better made, more customizable, roleplay friendly game, win the war for horror girl subs.
I hate to sound stereotypical but female players are into pretty avatars that games like Aion offer...plus a lot of customization that goes into it...like hair, make-up, cute outfits, and shoes to match...lol
Then they will like this game then. There is customisation in this game.
Comments
You should check the price of rare dyes on any given MMO (that has dyes). They are ridiculous. And trust me, girls aren't the ones buying that stuff.
You should check the price of rare dyes on any given MMO (that has dyes). They are ridiculous. And trust me, girls aren't the ones buying that stuff.
Right on the money, to name one dye....black. At least for me that i have no sense of color whatsoever most of the days! *laughs*.
Signature!!!...
Great post! No I see your point, but I don't see any new games catering only to the hardcore class anymore either. It's not just that they are mostly male, they are mostly of a certain age demographic and most probably don't have families (girlfriend, a wife don't count).
I also would be curious to see what you consider hardcore, because even the most harcore games I've tried girls were there too.
What I consider hardcore is basically anything with a long grind, levels OR raids. FFXI is hardcore to me, lots of girls in there most of them may not participate in end game but then again many do, and many guys couldn't be bothered with end game. I'm not sure if I consider PvP hardcore at all, you fight you die, you fight you win, you go for it again. Unless they were severe penalties to dieng like loot drops, I don't think that would be popular with very many women at all, but then again it's not popular with most of the mmo population either.
I feel like I'm just running in a loop here. :P
(,,,)=^__^=(,,,)
Like you said, anything that has an intense grind is what I consider "hardcore". Some examples are FFXI, WoW (although the grind is getting easier with every patch), Age of Conan, etc. I think you get the general idea.
Also, I didn't say there weren't women at end game in hardcore MMO's, I simply said that the balance of males to females is rather tipped toward the former.
Something that may be interesting to try is what I consider a "Basic" vs. "Advanced" mode. The best analogy I can give is Google. There are two ways you can search. If you are lazy (like me) you just type stuff in the box and hit search! Simple! However, if you want to get more out of your search, you can hit Advanced Search and that allows you to select additional filters. Think of the basic search as the casual gamers way to play, and the advanced search as the hardcore players way of playing.
All the details have not been worked out in my head, but basically casual gamers sacrifice some customization choices for an increased rate of experience so they can still play the game in its fullness but are not forced to put in as much time and effort. Hardcore gamers may level up slower but may be allowed to allocate their stat points where they want after every level. Obviously, there would need additional perks for the hardcore gamer, but you get the idea.
So off topic...lolol.
You're telling me guys could care less about their armor matching? Really? Guys don't want to look unique?
I've no idea what your first post means at all other then being flippant and there's really no use for that. /shrug
I don't think guys care too much about accesserising, no.
hmmmm well if you're talking about pretty pink barrettes I could see that, but according to many conversations I've had a matching piece set, pauldrons and chest for example is somewhat important. Not as important as the stats maybe but you can't tell me it doesn't bother the majority to have a rag tag armor set where the colors and general look doesn't match well, or look good together to put it even more plainly.
Otherwise you'd have to say that dyieng armor and appearance slots are only good for women.
Oh, guys are very conscious of their character's looks as well. At least I am. My experience with female gamers however, is that they put much more time and effort in aquiring apparel and clothing which don't serve a purpose in combat which makes them able to vary their looks a lot more. They are also much more interested in the social aspect to mmo's ... once again; in my experience. It does however reflect their avarage tendencies in real life somewhat ... that is ... in my experience.
I do agree with you that there are many different kinds of people with as many different kinds of preferences (one of the most ruthless gankers I met in WOW, for instance, was a girl. And she wasn't interested in collecting an expansive wardrobe at all).
BUT if you want to discuss factors which would increase the way a game attracts a specific gender, you can't avoid talking stereotypes and that was what I was doing. There ARE certain aspects to an mmorpg which would guarantee a more entertaining game for typical girls out there, just like there are aspects which are interesting for a typical guy (like AOC marketeers always seem to play those shallow 'brutal', 'bloody' and 'sexy' cards). So lets cut around the chase and have the guts to stereotype ourselves, or in this case; stereotype girls, I say
My brand new bloggity blog.
Just joined this site and I can't find anyone I've met there who would agree with any of this.. So I still stand by what I said, don't worry about attracting more girls just make a game with solid and a variety of features.
I also have a small list of games made for girls that I'd like to eradicate with a laser gun, you know what I'm talking about those DS take care of a baby games or find your perfect boyfriend. (I mean WTF?) I'm not sure on which planet people think this does anyone an actual service. If anything you are putting people in one cube and telling them "here that's what you like and we want your money so have fun!" Truly the best games are the one where the devs actually put their hearts and minds into not some bubble gum crap where a roomful of industry professionals sat in a room and decided, hey Desperate Wives is a really popular TV show with women, let's make that into a game! YES! And make sure they can print off coupons to get retail discounts. Yay!
While that may attract a certain group it won't do anything for the actual GAMER. In fact you'll just make us want to punch you in the face.
Now when it comes to young girls gaming I have a 7 year old daughter and she sees Barbie games and Princess games and wants to play them. So we rent those or sometimes buy some, and you know what? She'll play them for a few hours, but once she's done with them, it's time to move on. Those games don't stay with her, they're cute but they are not meaningful, well there's the rare one like Disney Princess Enchanted Journey though the difference here is the game is an actual adventure.
Here are the games she plays over and again and never shelves:
Okami, Super Smash Bros, Super Mario Galaxy and the Dog Island.
These are not girls games they are just games, one is geared towards kids and the other are just for anyone. The majority of women who play casual puzzle games, sims and nothing else don't know any better and are stuck in the stereotype of who enjoys those games. My husband hates shooters, hates PvP in mmos, never reads quests in MMOs, not big on role playing games at all, but loves RTS games. /shrug
Here's 2 articles a fellow female gamer wrote: 6 Reasons Why Casual Gaming is Stupid, 6 Reasons Why Casual Gaming is Good.
Again not so much a matter of what to do to bring in the women or the boys for that matter, but what kind of experience do we want the player to feel? Girls will grow up and if gaming has been part of their lives they won't have any qualms about being hardcore, casual, or not even interested. ^_^
Man I wasn't intending to have another rant.. Yike. :P
Oh wait just wanted to add to the Sims example, I don't know it's history as it never interested me, but I doubt some dude sat around and said "Hey let's make a game women are really going to love!" No he probably sat around and said: "Hey let's make this type of game I bet it would be kinda cool" And lo and behold it was a massive hit with women (and people in general).
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I definitely am interested in TSW, I'm not a very big gamer but I like MMOGs, and I've always loved this kind of genre in movies, and books, so if they do it right, this game could be great.
Cynthe, I agree with you completely. Games like Cooking Mama and Gardening Mama should be deep fried, eaten, defecated, and burned. They are honestly terrible games and only hurt women by creating a stereotype that needs to go already...
On the other hand, those games provide a certain service. Often times, young girls are drawn to those games simply because it looks like something designed for them. It might not be a game that they love forever, but if it leaves the player saying "That game was alright, but I'd like to try something different", then it has improved the gaming industry in the sense that a new gamer was formed. Those games do not have much substance but they serve as a hook for potential gamers.
Cynthe, I agree with you completely. Games like Cooking Mama and Gardening Mama should be deep fried, eaten, defecated, and burned. They are honestly terrible games and only hurt women by creating a stereotype that needs to go already...
On the other hand, those games provide a certain service. Often times, young girls are drawn to those games simply because it looks like something designed for them. It might not be a game that they love forever, but if it leaves the player saying "That game was alright, but I'd like to try something different", then it has improved the gaming industry in the sense that a new gamer was formed. Those games do not have much substance but they serve as a hook for potential gamers.
;P Actually Cooking Mama isn't a bad game, it is terrible on the Wii because for some reason the wiimote won't cooperate. While that game would seem degaratory it's targeted towards any casual gamer imo and goes more into the family/seniors category then just girls.
I agree that these games offer a point of entry and that's really great. I would also like that gamers encourage others to participate no matter their age or gender. I'm not talking about letting your kid play Bioshock but you know what I mean. ;P
What's really bugging me right now is that casual is very 'cool' in the media right now and you'll have super models walking around with a DS or a wii mote going "Look I'm hawt I got a game thingy here..." This is only adding to the misconceptions imo. Hot girls are hot because they work out, no other reason.
Those who game and those who don't. But anyway I'm dragging this way off topic.
I have a given some thought to the OP again and these are the things that as a girl really like in an MMO, I can't speak for everyone of course:
- No Classes, love to distribute my skills and points however I want.
-Customization: This falls under the first point a bit, being able to customize your skills or your 'class' is a major plus. Aesthetically love to make my character my own, unique faces, hair, clothing, armor ect.. Armor should not be too stat dependent. Though it's ok if it is.
-Immersion. Extremely important! It's supposed to be an online world after all. Too many games recently feel more like a guided tour of a world. Not really a place where your character lives. Housing is a good way to anchor yourself, or some sort of construction within the world, to say hey I made that and it's here and people can all see it.
-Side stuff to do, goes into immersion and general fun. Collections for prizes, pets, mini games, a card game that doesn't require real money trades (yo $OE pfft)
-An economy that makes sense and where people can make profit equally, not have the one or two crafts that make the real money ect, harvest nodes that look part of the world.
-Quests that are well written, put some back into it! This game should be puzzleriffic and I trust Funcom with their writers. So not too worried on that score.
-GM events, I loooooooove those really brings everything to life. Whether it's as simple as a quest or something that's world changing it's all good.
Meh that's what I have so far.
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On the topic of girls not big on the "hardcore" aspect of gaming...you should also factor in the joys of anonymity that the internet provides. Long before Vent/TeamSpeak/XBox Live, and the like, I never gave out my gender when playing - at the time, putting yourself out there as a girl quickly ruined the experience for you as the more..unsavory types usually began harassing you. It still happens in games now, so I know quite a few girls who don't wave a banner for Venus.
That aside, females just want a good game, same as any of their male counterparts.
OP: I really think a lot if it depends on how FC markets TSW. If they go the way of Conan and key on boobies and the female characters (NPC and PC) as sex objects then a lot of females (in my opinion) will be turned off. As a female gamer I can get past that stuff, though I still think it's bad marketing because you're focusing on male gamers when female gamers are a viable market as well, but many female gamers I know can't.
It'll be interesting to see how their marketing model unfolds.
There's a good amount of truth to that. Whereas a guy is very likely to persist through a game that has issues for the sake of enjoying the components he likes, women seem more likely to just walk away from a game with frustrating or 'annoying' elements and just pick up another one. If girls are the same way, I don't know, but women simply are a lot better at walking away from a game with 'annoying' features than men are.
I've used that word in quotes twice for a reason. Of the women I have spoken with regarding games and gaming, it is the word they have most commonly use to describe the feature that caused them to leave. They had no hatred for the game, the developers, the playerbase, etc... just a simple statement about what they didn't care for, often stated in a very casual and matter of fact tone.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
More? I was just a in fellowship in Lotro. 6 people, 5 with voice, one without. 2 were clearly female, as said, no way to know about the last one. If the last one was female then the split is 3/3 male/female.
In my opinion, lots of female players are already invovled with MMO's. Just that certain MMO's got a bad rep for being overun by 12yr olds who jump on anyone who is not a white 12 year old boy like them and so women either don't play or keep it quiet about it.
But in my experience there are a LOT of women playing Lotro, just got to be part of a kin/group where women don't feel they are going to be harrased the moment they reveal their sexe.
TSW is going to attact females if Funcom manages to convince them they are not going to be harrased.
When did race come in as a factor to playing an MMO? How can you even tell? Seems like thats taking things a step further. An unnecessary step further in my opinion.
I don’t see a need to “balance the community”, I am quite happy that in life men and women do not have to do everything together. Clearly the OP thinks we have to socially engineer more women to take part regardless of whether the women want to, or we as men want them to.
I would like to know how more women would “improve the community.” Following this odd idea perhaps we need to make sure there are more children and pensioners too? And what about making sure every ethnic group is represented? Surely that will improve the community too?
The idea that we need to make MMO’s a reflection of our RL social demographic is vacuous.
I am looking forward to tSW being a great game, if it is I am sure we will be welcoming lots of women to the game, as they are as good as we are at spotting a gem. Nuff said.
Sorry for the spelling on stigma back there. Either way, females are no different when it comes to playing games. What stigma I am refering to is that what has been explained on here and by others in society that do not play games. The comments like "Only fat chicks play games" and "Real girls only play games with social settings" is what I refer to. The reason why this stigma came about is because of how women, in general, react to video games. But this is becoming increasingly false as the years pass by and gamers of the opposite sex are now taking notice that video games are not just for guys.
But I stand on my last statement, its gameplay and settings that will bring the females, not the social or non-medieval setting of the game. Its like Cynthe said, she's just another MMO fan, she just happens to probably look better than most of us, of course, I am speaking only for myself
MMOs Played: I can no longer list them all in the 500 character limit.
I hate to sound stereotypical but female players are into pretty avatars that games like Aion offer...plus a lot of customization that goes into it...like hair, make-up, cute outfits, and shoes to match...lol
Hate to sound stereotypical but this is the truth...and also girls prefer fantasy setting over real ones...if you don't believe me try this pick up line..."hey do you like the movie labyrinth?"
and see what happens....rofl
My girlfriend is as eager to get her hands on the game as I are. We can't wait to get into the whole setting as we both love the sinister style of it.
I am a female gamer. I live in a house of two female gamers, myself and my partner. We are consummate geeks, our home being decorated in flows of geek ranging from Sci-Fi, to Comic-Books, to Horror and everything in between.
This game, and its classless, skill based, horror themed ideas, is probably the largest draw for me in the world of upcoming MMOs other than SW:TOR and for completely different reasons. SW:TOR is SW and Bioware. I will play it to play KoToR 3-12 online, fully expecting rails, walls and gameplay features reminisce of single player gaming experiences, in an MMO like world. But for a true immersive, create a living breathing character in a living breathing world, rich experience....I will go with Secret World. Lovecraftian horror and its ilk ranks among my favorite of all genres and was and is a heavy influence in my tabletop gaming sessions where appropriate.
I believe this game will attract the "right" sort of girls. The ones you want to play with. Who are playing for more than "be a pretty elf princess experience". Instead bringing characterization and femininity to the table in the game world without being attention whoring little trollops who just want to tee-hee.
This will draw your more mature female mentalities and I think, we can look forward to an amazing population.
Alexis Diana Dority
*Smiles*
There is another horror game that fills the same requrements: CCP/White wolfs "world of darkness online". I think those 2 games will compete about the female game population, it is kinda Delta green against Vampire the masquerade.
My money is on White wolf but this game could be very good also, time will tell. In pen and paper RPGs however there is a lot more female gamers in WoD than Cthulu/Delta green.
May the best game win, I will try both (No, I am not a female gamer, it is me on the avatar but I like horror a lot).
Most girls I know likes horror. And most girls I know that games are a lot into roleplaying, I think this game will offer more of that than Aion. It is true that female gamers like how stuff look but that doesn't mean they would actually prefer fantasy to horror.
To quote Blackie Lawless: "Scream until you like it..."
who cares if females play the game or not, i just hope its a good and innovative game.
There is another horror game that fills the same requrements: CCP/White wolfs "world of darkness online". I think those 2 games will compete about the female game population, it is kinda Delta green against Vampire the masquerade.
My money is on White wolf but this game could be very good also, time will tell. In pen and paper RPGs however there is a lot more female gamers in WoD than Cthulu/Delta green.
May the best game win, I will try both (No, I am not a female gamer, it is me on the avatar but I like horror a lot).
As a huge fan and player of White Wolf's Tabletop lineup I must say I agree with you. But here is how my choice has been made thus far.
CCP's WOD MMO is rumored by people I know at WW Games to be launching sans the ability to be a supernatural yourself, or at least sans the ability to be a Vampire for some odd reason. Vampire, being the largest draw White Wolf has for the average female gamer (to whit more female gamers buy Vampire products and are into Vamp sexiness than they are into Uratha and other lineups) and not being included in the launch of the MMO will deter many girl gamers imho. Of course if and only if rumors are true does any of what I just said apply. If Vampires are in I expect Secret World will be banking on my next point.
CCP has no history in character customization, their one MMO; you get the chance to play a ship. AoC for all its myriad of faults, had a gorgeous character customization system, and had it launched with hair length sliders as planned, it would have been among the best out there. And still ranks in the top 5 in my mind. Add to this the leveless infinitely customizable skill framework purportedly in this game and you have an amazing series of tools for roleplay. One of the largest draws of the female gamer.
Time will tell if you are right. May the better made, more customizable, roleplay friendly game, win the war for horror girl subs.
Alexis
*Smiles*
Hey! Where was the option: There are no girls on the internet!?
Then they will like this game then. There is customisation in this game.