I think what he wants to show, to counter a point of constant criticism on these boards, is that when a new player fails to succeed at eve it is because of the PLAYER"S shortcomings and not because the game is insurmountably difficult. There's a great saying: winners find a way to win, losers find a way to lose ; )
So how's a dyspro moon POS running Enkindu? Oh wai..
If you just take a look at the threads on this forum alone, you can see many questions about this, and many answers from fans and haters a like, but as a proespective player, who do you believe? Who is telling the truth? Can a new player really compete? Project BeliEvE attempts to answer this question with a definitive yes or no. Armon Deacon is a new freshly created character who will be attempting to progress quickly to "Competing" with the vets. His daily progress will be documented and tracked via this blog. The character will recieve no outside help monitarily or with items from established characters and his API key has been published for easy validation. Haters and Fans alike will soon have a definitive answer to the age old question, can a new player really compete with the vets in EvE?
this cant possibly be a definitive answer, no matter what the outcome of your "experiment" will be. Ive seen new players joining eve, and while the one of them got very successfull in a short amount of time from learning the basics of the game, how to skill, how to fit ships, how to save up for a navy issue battleship etc., the other is still struggling, not being able to do lvl 3 missions without losing his battlecruiser 50% of the time
Why coudn't it be a definitive answer ? The question is CAN a new player compete, not WILL EVERY new player be competetive and you already answered the question yourself with your example of one player doing quite well and theother not so well.
Just because a new player can be competetive this doen't mean they necessarily will, but unlike most other games a new player CANNOT be competetive or useful to end game activities until they reach level cap and get appropriate gear which can take months of farming. The limiting factor in Eve is player knowledge of the game, not character level and gear.
Blog is updated with last nights activities, surprisingly enough ended up with six kills last night. Gotta say it was a hell of a lot of fun, a lot more than I expected.
Great read. Hell im even thinking of shelving my main for a while and picking up my freshly made pirate alt. The corp you are in looking for another low sp vet ?
I think what he wants to show, to counter a point of constant criticism on these boards, is that when a new player fails to succeed at eve it is because of the PLAYER"S shortcomings and not because the game is insurmountably difficult. There's a great saying: winners find a way to win, losers find a way to lose ; )
So how's a dyspro moon POS running Enkindu? Oh wai..
Not sure what you are getting at here. Don't have a dyspro moon and never will under curreint mechanics. Buying R64 mats for T2 production cuts into profits but we still make billions building T2 : )
The ability to adapt and solve problems is critical for eve success.
Lots of people lacking this ability bash the game because they are easily frustrated.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
you said "player shortcoming". But isn't it often just that you don't want do do something even when you can? For example joining an alliance.... And also because EVE is about cooperation, sometimes failure comes because some1 else fail doing his task. How is this my shortcoming? Oh thats right, i should have join better corp. But as OP says in his blog - beggars can't be choosers. So its often tough luck for noobs. Or was I only one?
That said I have Q for OP: is really your goal just proving that a noob can join small corp and then go and gang newbs in their lolfit ships in lowsec? If yes, then it's not really that much ambitious and not too impresive IMO...
Originally posted by sa1yaman That said I have Q for OP: is really your goal just proving that a noob can join small corp and then go and gang newbs in their lolfit ships in lowsec? If yes, then it's not really that much ambitious and not too impresive IMO...
First, get a clue about life in low sec. Second, check his killboard and read his blog, ffs. 3 of 4 ships they encountered were PVP fitted, no lol fits.
That said I have Q for OP: is really your goal just proving that a noob can join small corp and then go and gang newbs in their lolfit ships in lowsec? If yes, then it's not really that much ambitious and not too impresive IMO...
First, get a clue about life in low sec.
Second, check his killboard and read his blog, ffs. 3 of 4 ships they encountered were PVP fitted, no lol fits.
beat me to it, most of the people we are fighting are folks that are there to fight, not newbs
you said "player shortcoming". But isn't it often just that you don't want do do something even when you can? For example joining an alliance.... And also because EVE is about cooperation, sometimes failure comes because some1 else fail doing his task. How is this my shortcoming? Oh thats right, i should have join better corp. But as OP says in his blog - beggars can't be choosers. So its often tough luck for noobs. Or was I only one? That said I have Q for OP: is really your goal just proving that a noob can join small corp and then go and gang newbs in their lolfit ships in lowsec? If yes, then it's not really that much ambitious and not too impresive IMO...
It's pretty simple. If you fail at eve and then blame game mechanics, other players, or anyone other than yourself and then come on a forum like this to cry about it.. that demonstrates a shortfall in your attitude, your intellect, or both.
I make conscious choices not to do certain things and find ways to succeed anyway.
On this board we get pretty tired of people posting not to share or request information, but just to COMPLAIN about the game being too hard/ unfair/ stupid etc...
People frequently post that you can't enjoy the game because of the insurmountable skillpoint deficit you have as a new player. The OP's project is designed to show potential new players that this really isn't true... that the limitation is more one of intellect and attitude than a built in part of game mechanics.
Not that complicated to get your mind around is it?
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
Problem is the definition of the word 'compete'. The scope of EvE as far as things to be or roles to play, is pretty big. Between the noob and vet, the noob can catch up to compete in one arena/role fairly quickly, but not in many arenas/roles.
Also 'compete' is only one way to interact in EvE. A good question would be: how quickly can a new player contribute?
I would say the entire idea of noobs catching up with vets just shows that a person doesn't have a full understanding of the game, (which would be normal for new players I guess) and is probably comparing the ideas of 'compete' 'new player' 'vet' and even 'mmo' based on previous, much different mmo's.
You're playing with words, nitpicking or trolling...
He is comparing what can be done as a vet and what can done as a new character, truly a competition and right word to use.
I would say he is being specific, in contrast to being ambiguous as the project is.
First of all, the project will show that a new character can compete with established characters.
Second, "compete" is not very specific. In order to prevent future "bah, this didnt prove anything" posts, I would suggest putting up specific goals like, killing 10 <insert enemy ship types> here with a minimum kill/death ratio to be <insert a meaningful value here>. This way you can avoid future criticism about afk kills, noob-veteran kills, etc etc.
If you just take a look at the threads on this forum alone, you can see many questions about this, and many answers from fans and haters a like, but as a proespective player, who do you believe? Who is telling the truth? Can a new player really compete? Project BeliEvE attempts to answer this question with a definitive yes or no. Armon Deacon is a new freshly created character who will be attempting to progress quickly to "Competing" with the vets. His daily progress will be documented and tracked via this blog. The character will recieve no outside help monitarily or with items from established characters and his API key has been published for easy validation. Haters and Fans alike will soon have a definitive answer to the age old question, can a new player really compete with the vets in EvE?
this cant possibly be a definitive answer, no matter what the outcome of your "experiment" will be. Ive seen new players joining eve, and while the one of them got very successfull in a short amount of time from learning the basics of the game, how to skill, how to fit ships, how to save up for a navy issue battleship etc., the other is still struggling, not being able to do lvl 3 missions without losing his battlecruiser 50% of the time
Why coudn't it be a definitive answer ? The question is CAN a new player compete, not WILL EVERY new player be competetive and you already answered the question yourself with your example of one player doing quite well and theother not so well.
Just because a new player can be competetive this doen't mean they necessarily will, but unlike most other games a new player CANNOT be competetive or useful to end game activities until they reach level cap and get appropriate gear which can take months of farming. The limiting factor in Eve is player knowledge of the game, not character level and gear.
This needs no proof. Its a fact that a vet player with 100000sp is useful for something. A new player is not that useful though, even with a million points. Thats why this project puzzles me, its proven a point that needs no proof. They put a vet on a chair working with a new character, and that vet would win PvP against a noob with a million SPs.
The point that needs proof, though, is this definition of "compete". Can a new character be useful in as many tasks as established characters? The answer is: NO. Why? Because like Planetside, the more SPs you have, the more options you get. A level 1 character in Planetside CAN compete with level 25 character. But, level 25 character has much wider range of weaponry and vehicles to compete with.
So yes, a new char may compete in PvP with a vet, but that new char will fail competeing in economy, mining, crafting, research or what have you with that same vet char. Since Eve does not stop leveling skill points, new character will never reach the same level of choice as the vet with 10mil points above him.
Again, its not about competing at one thing (pvp, industry, mining, etc), but the whole thing in general. Its not as bad as it sounds though, a new player can specialize in one aspect of the game, lets say PvP. That player will catch up to the vet that spreads his points all around. But, if you compare specialized vet with specialized new char, then Im betting the vet will outcompete that new char.
If you just take a look at the threads on this forum alone, you can see many questions about this, and many answers from fans and haters a like, but as a proespective player, who do you believe? Who is telling the truth? Can a new player really compete? Project BeliEvE attempts to answer this question with a definitive yes or no. Armon Deacon is a new freshly created character who will be attempting to progress quickly to "Competing" with the vets. His daily progress will be documented and tracked via this blog. The character will recieve no outside help monitarily or with items from established characters and his API key has been published for easy validation. Haters and Fans alike will soon have a definitive answer to the age old question, can a new player really compete with the vets in EvE?
Just because a new player can be competetive this doen't mean they necessarily will, but unlike most other games a new player CANNOT be competetive or useful to end game activities until they reach level cap and get appropriate gear which can take months of farming. The limiting factor in Eve is player knowledge of the game, not character level and gear.
blatant misunderstanding of eve
In eve, a frigate can indeed kill a battlecruiser or cruiser or group of frigates to kill battlecruisers/battleships if set up properly and in the right scenario. Although supremely more skilled players have obvious advantages and usually are less likely to be caught with their pants down, it does happen.
Oh, and above scenario would take a little while, too. Not a long while. Meanwhile what do you think frigates take out most of the time? other light poppable ships such as frigates/interceptors/assault frigates/destroyers. As long as the guy is reasonably competent and starts to learn what skills to train he will do just fine, he'll just be quite a ways behind on tech 2 equipment.
Fleets of frigates who lose some but take out ravens? It's been done time and time again.
OF course he's not going to kill a dread or something but a level 1 brand new player in wow does not expect to instantly hop into naxramas either.
The thing that made me try EVE over a year ago and stay what the fact that a new player could compete with vets. Maybe not 1v1, but in a fleet with the right skill line and fit. EVE's MASSIVE amounts of information available in hundreds of different forums make finding information for whatever path you wish to follow and tools like EVE-Mon and EFT make planning your progression practical, more than any other MMO. There is a place for everyone in EVE, finding a Corp is KEY, and being able to research a Corp is easier than any other MMO. Just like in every MMO, one can never expect to go tow to tow vs. Vets, but EVEs game mechanics make it possible for a new player to join in a fleet and have a better chance earlier in their game career. Also as someone stated earlier.....someone may have 50m SP but it might not all be combat skills....or the skills for the ship they are in. I am quit sure 6 year vets still pop in 0.0 like everyone else. I know I have an alt with ZERO combat skills, like most, I spent a ton of time on manufacturing and mining to support my main's frigate abuse....If ever in a fight with the alt....I'd pop in a second...Another plus is EVE the fact that bigger isn't better was very appealing for a noob frigate capsuleer. And having one server with 40k people on at once is a vast player base to pick knowledge from. Also the fact that there are many players very willing to aide noobs.....the level of maturity displayed by 99% of the player base is amazing, there's not as many tool bags in EVE....compared to most other MMOs.
The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps! Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady of the United States, 1945
Why coudn't it be a definitive answer ? The question is CAN a new player compete, not WILL EVERY new player be competetive and you already answered the question yourself with your example of one player doing quite well and theother not so well.
Just because a new player can be competetive this doen't mean they necessarily will, but unlike most other games a new player CANNOT be competetive or useful to end game activities until they reach level cap and get appropriate gear which can take months of farming. The limiting factor in Eve is player knowledge of the game, not character level and gear.
This needs no proof. Its a fact that a vet player with 100000sp is useful for something. A new player is not that useful though, even with a million points. Thats why this project puzzles me, its proven a point that needs no proof. They put a vet on a chair working with a new character, and that vet would win PvP against a noob with a million SPs.
The point is to prove to the non believers or those who simpley do not know that a new player can be useful and competitive at an early stage in the game. This is obviously not intended to prove anything to those of us that already know they can.
The point that needs proof, though, is this definition of "compete". Can a new character be useful in as many tasks as established characters? The answer is: NO. Why? Because like Planetside, the more SPs you have, the more options you get. A level 1 character in Planetside CAN compete with level 25 character. But, level 25 character has much wider range of weaponry and vehicles to compete with.
My definition of 'compete' here is simpley to enter the battlefield and provide a useful role and survive while doing so in small group pvp. 1 vs 1 doesn't count because a new player will obviously to lose to a vet because the new player lacks all the skills necessary which include basic player knowledge. Fleet battle doesn't as well because there is little to no individual player skill in large fleet fights, the skill is more on the FCs. Other people may have differetn definition but I believe mine offers a fair and reasonable expectation.
So yes, a new char may compete in PvP with a vet, but that new char will fail competeing in economy, mining, crafting, research or what have you with that same vet char. Since Eve does not stop leveling skill points, new character will never reach the same level of choice as the vet with 10mil points above him.
Economoy has very little to do with a players skill points and more the knowledge of the market. Another player a while back proved that a new player with just the skills provided at creation and basic wallet could double his money every day and he made a lot of money. Mining, crafting and research I will agree tend to more the SP intensive areas of the game. If I can find the link I will post it but im not gonna spend much time looking.
A new player can reach the same level of choice, every skill has a level cap. If the SPs and levels for each skill were infinite then I would agree with you.
Again, its not about competing at one thing (pvp, industry, mining, etc), but the whole thing in general. Its not as bad as it sounds though, a new player can specialize in one aspect of the game, lets say PvP. That player will catch up to the vet that spreads his points all around. But, if you compare specialized vet with specialized new char, then Im betting the vet will outcompete that new char.
The argument of vet vs new char is an impossible question to really answer. If you are talking 2 pilots in identical fitted ships and the slug it out yeah then the vet will win but how often does this happen in Eve ? Not often and once you start adding variables such as ship type and weapons type then the vet vs newb question becomes a lot more blurry and no one can say with certainty what would happen.
I hope new players are still competitive as I only started playing on Friday. Time will tell I guess.
You will be fine. Run the Epic Arc missions NOW while you don't yet have any bad standings, because the Arc missions will take you to everyones space. Also you stand to make about 20 million in doing the entire line. Find a good Corp that fits your play style, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, get EVE Mon, and EFT.....TRAIN up your Learning Skills first.....I know its a pain...BUT you will thanks me in a month. In about a month you should have enough skill, as long as you followed a path that you read up on using Battleclinic, EVE Forums....etc, to compete in a fleet. You'll not be able to 1v1 many....but there isn't much 1v1 in EVE....In this last week I've been in 6 Blob fights and did ok and that was with an alt with only 1.1million SP...which I trained since May 2d of this year, after a year and a half with 2 other accounts. You'll be fine. Another thing to remember about EVE:
1) Do not be afraid to try something
2) You will die....often....accept it. We all have!!
3) Try to resist the urge to get in the big ships.....stick with frigates....and the fittings for the....you can be in T2 ships and gear within a month. T2 Frigates are some great ships......read up on them. Nothing more annoying to a large ship than that little frigate he can't hit that got him Webbed, Scrammed, and Jammed........sure he can try drones....if he has them....but chances are he'll pop as your mates pound the piss out of him.
4) Also, sticking with frigates at first will help you cope with the lose of them. Most Frigs, good ones....go for about 250K......Battleships, Battlecruisers....etc go for over 35,000,000.....ship hull alone. You can even grab a frigate blueprint and keep making them with the loot you refined from missions.
Good Luck....and hopefully you'll realize that EVE.....is Crack.......
The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps! Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady of the United States, 1945
heh .... Eve is a game that you have to be really devoted to to be successful (like to have a rep for bieing uber). I played for 2.5 years (quit a couple years ago with 40 mil skill points, 40 - 50 ships and zillions of parts and stuff and only 1.5 billion isk in the bank). A noob could never catch up with a vet in skill points (unless you played 5 years or so and trained everything to max).
Competing for isk would not be too bad ... you could be fairly rich in a year or so.
If you make the right friends, you can still have megafun in 0.0 ... long as you dont mind being a tagalong the the "Uber" ones.
well. a person with anything less than a years worth of training would have no chance against me in 1v1.
im a 7 year vet maxed combat skills. the notion a new player can compete is just a joke. only thing that is possible is a noob swarm as i call them, where 5+ new player MUST group up to surive"for a short time".
if you plan to join eve now apply to goon swarm and get ready to be cannon fodder for the next 6-7 months.
well. a person with anything less than a years worth of training would have no chance against me in 1v1. im a 7 year vet maxed combat skills. the notion a new player can compete is just a joke. only thing that is possible is a noob swarm as i call them, where 5+ new player MUST group up to surive"for a short time". if you plan to join eve now apply to goon swarm and get ready to be cannon fodder for the next 6-7 months.
so no matter what ship you are in, what fitting you have currently on that ship. no 1 year noob could fight you? doesn't sound like really understand how EVE works.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
well. a person with anything less than a years worth of training would have no chance against me in 1v1. im a 7 year vet maxed combat skills. the notion a new player can compete is just a joke. only thing that is possible is a noob swarm as i call them, where 5+ new player MUST group up to surive"for a short time". if you plan to join eve now apply to goon swarm and get ready to be cannon fodder for the next 6-7 months.
so no matter what ship you are in, what fitting you have currently on that ship. no 1 year noob could fight you? doesn't sound like really understand how EVE works.
sure change the rules around m8. ship for ship a 1 year old is no match for a 7 year vet. get in your battlecruiser and i'll put 100mil isk that i can out run you in a battleship.... one sided ya thats an understatement.
do you really play EVE? no one plays "ship for ship". people fly ships intended to destroy other ships. sure, in other games like WoW and Lineage2 you see people bragging they can win a 1v1 against insert-class-here. honestly your post sounds more like posturing than anything useful.
EVE isn't about solo PvP, its group PvP. saying you can beat people 1v1 is like saying you can mine faster than someone else. sure it doesn't hurt, but its less important than say... being useful in a larger fight.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
I hope new players are still competitive as I only started playing on Friday. Time will tell I guess.
You will be fine. Run the Epic Arc missions NOW while you don't yet have any bad standings, because the Arc missions will take you to everyones space. Also you stand to make about 20 million in doing the entire line. Find a good Corp that fits your play style, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, get EVE Mon, and EFT.....TRAIN up your Learning Skills first.....I know its a pain...BUT you will thanks me in a month. In about a month you should have enough skill, as long as you followed a path that you read up on using Battleclinic, EVE Forums....etc, to compete in a fleet. You'll not be able to 1v1 many....but there isn't much 1v1 in EVE....In this last week I've been in 6 Blob fights and did ok and that was with an alt with only 1.1million SP...which I trained since May 2d of this year, after a year and a half with 2 other accounts. You'll be fine. Another thing to remember about EVE:
1) Do not be afraid to try something
2) You will die....often....accept it. We all have!!
3) Try to resist the urge to get in the big ships.....stick with frigates....and the fittings for the....you can be in T2 ships and gear within a month. T2 Frigates are some great ships......read up on them. Nothing more annoying to a large ship than that little frigate he can't hit that got him Webbed, Scrammed, and Jammed........sure he can try drones....if he has them....but chances are he'll pop as your mates pound the piss out of him.
4) Also, sticking with frigates at first will help you cope with the lose of them. Most Frigs, good ones....go for about 250K......Battleships, Battlecruisers....etc go for over 35,000,000.....ship hull alone. You can even grab a frigate blueprint and keep making them with the loot you refined from missions.
Good Luck....and hopefully you'll realize that EVE.....is Crack.......
Good advice, thanks.
Just out of interest why do you suggest learning skills first? I've been working on getting my certificates and already have core navigation and core fitting. I was hoping to get all the recommended ones for frigates before I started doing anything else really,
Comments
So how's a dyspro moon POS running Enkindu? Oh wai..
this cant possibly be a definitive answer, no matter what the outcome of your "experiment" will be. Ive seen new players joining eve, and while the one of them got very successfull in a short amount of time from learning the basics of the game, how to skill, how to fit ships, how to save up for a navy issue battleship etc., the other is still struggling, not being able to do lvl 3 missions without losing his battlecruiser 50% of the time
Why coudn't it be a definitive answer ? The question is CAN a new player compete, not WILL EVERY new player be competetive and you already answered the question yourself with your example of one player doing quite well and theother not so well.
Just because a new player can be competetive this doen't mean they necessarily will, but unlike most other games a new player CANNOT be competetive or useful to end game activities until they reach level cap and get appropriate gear which can take months of farming. The limiting factor in Eve is player knowledge of the game, not character level and gear.
Good job.
This is an interesting read and does bring some ideas to my head.
Goodluck and I hope I continue to see more from you.
Blog is updated with last nights activities, surprisingly enough ended up with six kills last night. Gotta say it was a hell of a lot of fun, a lot more than I expected.
First real evening in eve
Great read. Hell im even thinking of shelving my main for a while and picking up my freshly made pirate alt. The corp you are in looking for another low sp vet ?
Might be, you'd have to talk to Quani, he's the CEO. Give him a holler.
I just might have to do that. Give me a good chance to check out the new tutorial and missions and back into some fun low sec pvp.
So how's a dyspro moon POS running Enkindu? Oh wai..
Not sure what you are getting at here. Don't have a dyspro moon and never will under curreint mechanics. Buying R64 mats for T2 production cuts into profits but we still make billions building T2 : )
The ability to adapt and solve problems is critical for eve success.
Lots of people lacking this ability bash the game because they are easily frustrated.
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
you said "player shortcoming". But isn't it often just that you don't want do do something even when you can? For example joining an alliance.... And also because EVE is about cooperation, sometimes failure comes because some1 else fail doing his task. How is this my shortcoming? Oh thats right, i should have join better corp. But as OP says in his blog - beggars can't be choosers. So its often tough luck for noobs. Or was I only one?
That said I have Q for OP: is really your goal just proving that a noob can join small corp and then go and gang newbs in their lolfit ships in lowsec? If yes, then it's not really that much ambitious and not too impresive IMO...
First, get a clue about life in low sec.
Second, check his killboard and read his blog, ffs. 3 of 4 ships they encountered were PVP fitted, no lol fits.
First, get a clue about life in low sec.
Second, check his killboard and read his blog, ffs. 3 of 4 ships they encountered were PVP fitted, no lol fits.
beat me to it, most of the people we are fighting are folks that are there to fight, not newbs
It's pretty simple. If you fail at eve and then blame game mechanics, other players, or anyone other than yourself and then come on a forum like this to cry about it.. that demonstrates a shortfall in your attitude, your intellect, or both.
I make conscious choices not to do certain things and find ways to succeed anyway.
On this board we get pretty tired of people posting not to share or request information, but just to COMPLAIN about the game being too hard/ unfair/ stupid etc...
People frequently post that you can't enjoy the game because of the insurmountable skillpoint deficit you have as a new player. The OP's project is designed to show potential new players that this really isn't true... that the limitation is more one of intellect and attitude than a built in part of game mechanics.
Not that complicated to get your mind around is it?
deviliscious: (PS. I have been told that when I use scientific language, it does not make me sound more intelligent, it only makes me sound like a jackass. It makes me appear that I am not knowledgable enough in the subject I am discussing to be able to translate it for people outside the field to understand. Some advice you might consider as well)
You're playing with words, nitpicking or trolling...
He is comparing what can be done as a vet and what can done as a new character, truly a competition and right word to use.
I would say he is being specific, in contrast to being ambiguous as the project is.
First of all, the project will show that a new character can compete with established characters.
Second, "compete" is not very specific. In order to prevent future "bah, this didnt prove anything" posts, I would suggest putting up specific goals like, killing 10 <insert enemy ship types> here with a minimum kill/death ratio to be <insert a meaningful value here>. This way you can avoid future criticism about afk kills, noob-veteran kills, etc etc.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
this cant possibly be a definitive answer, no matter what the outcome of your "experiment" will be. Ive seen new players joining eve, and while the one of them got very successfull in a short amount of time from learning the basics of the game, how to skill, how to fit ships, how to save up for a navy issue battleship etc., the other is still struggling, not being able to do lvl 3 missions without losing his battlecruiser 50% of the time
Why coudn't it be a definitive answer ? The question is CAN a new player compete, not WILL EVERY new player be competetive and you already answered the question yourself with your example of one player doing quite well and theother not so well.
Just because a new player can be competetive this doen't mean they necessarily will, but unlike most other games a new player CANNOT be competetive or useful to end game activities until they reach level cap and get appropriate gear which can take months of farming. The limiting factor in Eve is player knowledge of the game, not character level and gear.
This needs no proof. Its a fact that a vet player with 100000sp is useful for something. A new player is not that useful though, even with a million points. Thats why this project puzzles me, its proven a point that needs no proof. They put a vet on a chair working with a new character, and that vet would win PvP against a noob with a million SPs.
The point that needs proof, though, is this definition of "compete". Can a new character be useful in as many tasks as established characters? The answer is: NO. Why? Because like Planetside, the more SPs you have, the more options you get. A level 1 character in Planetside CAN compete with level 25 character. But, level 25 character has much wider range of weaponry and vehicles to compete with.
So yes, a new char may compete in PvP with a vet, but that new char will fail competeing in economy, mining, crafting, research or what have you with that same vet char. Since Eve does not stop leveling skill points, new character will never reach the same level of choice as the vet with 10mil points above him.
Again, its not about competing at one thing (pvp, industry, mining, etc), but the whole thing in general. Its not as bad as it sounds though, a new player can specialize in one aspect of the game, lets say PvP. That player will catch up to the vet that spreads his points all around. But, if you compare specialized vet with specialized new char, then Im betting the vet will outcompete that new char.
I am the type of player where I like to do everything and anything from time to time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - pre-WW2 genocide.
Just because a new player can be competetive this doen't mean they necessarily will, but unlike most other games a new player CANNOT be competetive or useful to end game activities until they reach level cap and get appropriate gear which can take months of farming. The limiting factor in Eve is player knowledge of the game, not character level and gear.
blatant misunderstanding of eve
In eve, a frigate can indeed kill a battlecruiser or cruiser or group of frigates to kill battlecruisers/battleships if set up properly and in the right scenario. Although supremely more skilled players have obvious advantages and usually are less likely to be caught with their pants down, it does happen.
Oh, and above scenario would take a little while, too. Not a long while. Meanwhile what do you think frigates take out most of the time? other light poppable ships such as frigates/interceptors/assault frigates/destroyers. As long as the guy is reasonably competent and starts to learn what skills to train he will do just fine, he'll just be quite a ways behind on tech 2 equipment.
Fleets of frigates who lose some but take out ravens? It's been done time and time again.
OF course he's not going to kill a dread or something but a level 1 brand new player in wow does not expect to instantly hop into naxramas either.
/rant
The thing that made me try EVE over a year ago and stay what the fact that a new player could compete with vets. Maybe not 1v1, but in a fleet with the right skill line and fit. EVE's MASSIVE amounts of information available in hundreds of different forums make finding information for whatever path you wish to follow and tools like EVE-Mon and EFT make planning your progression practical, more than any other MMO. There is a place for everyone in EVE, finding a Corp is KEY, and being able to research a Corp is easier than any other MMO. Just like in every MMO, one can never expect to go tow to tow vs. Vets, but EVEs game mechanics make it possible for a new player to join in a fleet and have a better chance earlier in their game career. Also as someone stated earlier.....someone may have 50m SP but it might not all be combat skills....or the skills for the ship they are in. I am quit sure 6 year vets still pop in 0.0 like everyone else. I know I have an alt with ZERO combat skills, like most, I spent a ton of time on manufacturing and mining to support my main's frigate abuse....If ever in a fight with the alt....I'd pop in a second...Another plus is EVE the fact that bigger isn't better was very appealing for a noob frigate capsuleer. And having one server with 40k people on at once is a vast player base to pick knowledge from. Also the fact that there are many players very willing to aide noobs.....the level of maturity displayed by 99% of the player base is amazing, there's not as many tool bags in EVE....compared to most other MMOs.
The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!
Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady of the United States, 1945
Why coudn't it be a definitive answer ? The question is CAN a new player compete, not WILL EVERY new player be competetive and you already answered the question yourself with your example of one player doing quite well and theother not so well.
Just because a new player can be competetive this doen't mean they necessarily will, but unlike most other games a new player CANNOT be competetive or useful to end game activities until they reach level cap and get appropriate gear which can take months of farming. The limiting factor in Eve is player knowledge of the game, not character level and gear.
This needs no proof. Its a fact that a vet player with 100000sp is useful for something. A new player is not that useful though, even with a million points. Thats why this project puzzles me, its proven a point that needs no proof. They put a vet on a chair working with a new character, and that vet would win PvP against a noob with a million SPs.
The point is to prove to the non believers or those who simpley do not know that a new player can be useful and competitive at an early stage in the game. This is obviously not intended to prove anything to those of us that already know they can.
The point that needs proof, though, is this definition of "compete". Can a new character be useful in as many tasks as established characters? The answer is: NO. Why? Because like Planetside, the more SPs you have, the more options you get. A level 1 character in Planetside CAN compete with level 25 character. But, level 25 character has much wider range of weaponry and vehicles to compete with.
My definition of 'compete' here is simpley to enter the battlefield and provide a useful role and survive while doing so in small group pvp. 1 vs 1 doesn't count because a new player will obviously to lose to a vet because the new player lacks all the skills necessary which include basic player knowledge. Fleet battle doesn't as well because there is little to no individual player skill in large fleet fights, the skill is more on the FCs. Other people may have differetn definition but I believe mine offers a fair and reasonable expectation.
So yes, a new char may compete in PvP with a vet, but that new char will fail competeing in economy, mining, crafting, research or what have you with that same vet char. Since Eve does not stop leveling skill points, new character will never reach the same level of choice as the vet with 10mil points above him.
Economoy has very little to do with a players skill points and more the knowledge of the market. Another player a while back proved that a new player with just the skills provided at creation and basic wallet could double his money every day and he made a lot of money. Mining, crafting and research I will agree tend to more the SP intensive areas of the game. If I can find the link I will post it but im not gonna spend much time looking.
A new player can reach the same level of choice, every skill has a level cap. If the SPs and levels for each skill were infinite then I would agree with you.
Again, its not about competing at one thing (pvp, industry, mining, etc), but the whole thing in general. Its not as bad as it sounds though, a new player can specialize in one aspect of the game, lets say PvP. That player will catch up to the vet that spreads his points all around. But, if you compare specialized vet with specialized new char, then Im betting the vet will outcompete that new char.
The argument of vet vs new char is an impossible question to really answer. If you are talking 2 pilots in identical fitted ships and the slug it out yeah then the vet will win but how often does this happen in Eve ? Not often and once you start adding variables such as ship type and weapons type then the vet vs newb question becomes a lot more blurry and no one can say with certainty what would happen.
I hope new players are still competitive as I only started playing on Friday. Time will tell I guess.
You will be fine. Run the Epic Arc missions NOW while you don't yet have any bad standings, because the Arc missions will take you to everyones space. Also you stand to make about 20 million in doing the entire line. Find a good Corp that fits your play style, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, get EVE Mon, and EFT.....TRAIN up your Learning Skills first.....I know its a pain...BUT you will thanks me in a month. In about a month you should have enough skill, as long as you followed a path that you read up on using Battleclinic, EVE Forums....etc, to compete in a fleet. You'll not be able to 1v1 many....but there isn't much 1v1 in EVE....In this last week I've been in 6 Blob fights and did ok and that was with an alt with only 1.1million SP...which I trained since May 2d of this year, after a year and a half with 2 other accounts. You'll be fine. Another thing to remember about EVE:
1) Do not be afraid to try something
2) You will die....often....accept it. We all have!!
3) Try to resist the urge to get in the big ships.....stick with frigates....and the fittings for the....you can be in T2 ships and gear within a month. T2 Frigates are some great ships......read up on them. Nothing more annoying to a large ship than that little frigate he can't hit that got him Webbed, Scrammed, and Jammed........sure he can try drones....if he has them....but chances are he'll pop as your mates pound the piss out of him.
4) Also, sticking with frigates at first will help you cope with the lose of them. Most Frigs, good ones....go for about 250K......Battleships, Battlecruisers....etc go for over 35,000,000.....ship hull alone. You can even grab a frigate blueprint and keep making them with the loot you refined from missions.
Good Luck....and hopefully you'll realize that EVE.....is Crack.......
The Marines I have seen around the world have the cleanest bodies, the filthiest minds, the highest morale, and the lowest morals of any group of animals I have ever seen. Thank God for the United States Marine Corps!
Eleanor Roosevelt, First Lady of the United States, 1945
heh .... Eve is a game that you have to be really devoted to to be successful (like to have a rep for bieing uber). I played for 2.5 years (quit a couple years ago with 40 mil skill points, 40 - 50 ships and zillions of parts and stuff and only 1.5 billion isk in the bank). A noob could never catch up with a vet in skill points (unless you played 5 years or so and trained everything to max).
Competing for isk would not be too bad ... you could be fairly rich in a year or so.
If you make the right friends, you can still have megafun in 0.0 ... long as you dont mind being a tagalong the the "Uber" ones.
If Ya Ain't Dyin, Ya Ain't Tryin
well. a person with anything less than a years worth of training would have no chance against me in 1v1.
im a 7 year vet maxed combat skills. the notion a new player can compete is just a joke. only thing that is possible is a noob swarm as i call them, where 5+ new player MUST group up to surive"for a short time".
if you plan to join eve now apply to goon swarm and get ready to be cannon fodder for the next 6-7 months.
so no matter what ship you are in, what fitting you have currently on that ship. no 1 year noob could fight you? doesn't sound like really understand how EVE works.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
so no matter what ship you are in, what fitting you have currently on that ship. no 1 year noob could fight you? doesn't sound like really understand how EVE works.
sure change the rules around m8. ship for ship a 1 year old is no match for a 7 year vet. get in your battlecruiser and i'll put 100mil isk that i can out run you in a battleship.... one sided ya thats an understatement.
do you really play EVE? no one plays "ship for ship". people fly ships intended to destroy other ships. sure, in other games like WoW and Lineage2 you see people bragging they can win a 1v1 against insert-class-here. honestly your post sounds more like posturing than anything useful.
EVE isn't about solo PvP, its group PvP. saying you can beat people 1v1 is like saying you can mine faster than someone else. sure it doesn't hurt, but its less important than say... being useful in a larger fight.
Everything creates huge amounts of negativity on the internet, that's what the internet is for: Negativity, porn and lolcats.
You will be fine. Run the Epic Arc missions NOW while you don't yet have any bad standings, because the Arc missions will take you to everyones space. Also you stand to make about 20 million in doing the entire line. Find a good Corp that fits your play style, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH, get EVE Mon, and EFT.....TRAIN up your Learning Skills first.....I know its a pain...BUT you will thanks me in a month. In about a month you should have enough skill, as long as you followed a path that you read up on using Battleclinic, EVE Forums....etc, to compete in a fleet. You'll not be able to 1v1 many....but there isn't much 1v1 in EVE....In this last week I've been in 6 Blob fights and did ok and that was with an alt with only 1.1million SP...which I trained since May 2d of this year, after a year and a half with 2 other accounts. You'll be fine. Another thing to remember about EVE:
1) Do not be afraid to try something
2) You will die....often....accept it. We all have!!
3) Try to resist the urge to get in the big ships.....stick with frigates....and the fittings for the....you can be in T2 ships and gear within a month. T2 Frigates are some great ships......read up on them. Nothing more annoying to a large ship than that little frigate he can't hit that got him Webbed, Scrammed, and Jammed........sure he can try drones....if he has them....but chances are he'll pop as your mates pound the piss out of him.
4) Also, sticking with frigates at first will help you cope with the lose of them. Most Frigs, good ones....go for about 250K......Battleships, Battlecruisers....etc go for over 35,000,000.....ship hull alone. You can even grab a frigate blueprint and keep making them with the loot you refined from missions.
Good Luck....and hopefully you'll realize that EVE.....is Crack.......
Good advice, thanks.
Just out of interest why do you suggest learning skills first? I've been working on getting my certificates and already have core navigation and core fitting. I was hoping to get all the recommended ones for frigates before I started doing anything else really,