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Screw the indie/small Developer
Cyborg99
Member Posts: 576
I"m tired of ppl saying I should give indi/small developers a chance. Why should I? I'm the kind of guy who never cheers for the underdog and I always shop at the big stores (walmart,etc). Some ppl say bigger companies don't care about customers but companies like AV prove that small/indie devs don't care either.
So I say down with the small budget mmo's and more of the bigger budget mmo's because we all know the more money put into a mmo the better it will be (no I'm not joking).
Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post. It's ok to say bad things about the big bad companies but your not aloud to say bad things to the small weak companies : /
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
Comments
the elite of the devs ae probabbly working on the bid budgets games, but withouth the freedom to innovate
the indie devs could be people withouth experience, maybe even skill, and money, but can innovate
and we need innovation.
if you down a game because lack of graphics or animation you are doing a disservice to gaming and specially to mmorpg
so....
down BAD games, not games that have low production values. If you know the diference... i guest is a dificult one
we need more crazy and original games, and these wll come in ugly box's
wait wut
Personally, I don't pay much attention to who is developing the game. If I like it, I will play it. Otherwise, I'll move on. It seems to me that the size of the developer doesn't have a whole lot to do with the quality of the game. Everyone is capable of delivering a crap product and I have seen gems come from companies of all sizes.
Who the hell cares?
Freedom to innovate? Big companies hire the most qualified devs with expirience while small/indie companies get stuck with the bottom of the barrel. Also to some ppl (like myself) graphics are a huge factor in games because I spend alot of money on updating my pc, so don't tell me what factors I should condsider.
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
Kudos, best argument ever!
Why didn't I ever think of that, tell people (not ppl) to simply ignore every post that is against mine. That opens a whole new world, it's such a great tactic. Just ignore it if someone opposes you. American citizens probably should have ignored the bombing of Pearl Harbor, I mean, they're (not their) just Communists, so just ignore their big booms.
I know (not no) that we all have different opinions, but yours, is wrong (at points at least).
May I point out where you said "The more money, the better game". That's far from true. Take for example, CounterStrike, which had little/no budget and is ages better than the steaming pile that the general populous calls Halo 3. It's not so much the budget as the skill of the artists. The same applies to movies, as I have seen many fanfilms with a budget of 80-500 dollars that trump Hollywood Blockbusters with budgets in the millions of dollars.
I like to shop at the big stores too, they tend to have more in stock and it's a bit cheaper, I don't really see what that has to do with Indie developers though...
Please, if you want to be taken seriously, learn to spell correctly first of all, and don't say "People will disagree, but I don't like them, ignore them".
Thank you,
- Eric
EDIT: About 4 posts before I posted mine, wanted to touch on them. Mostly then one saying that Indie developers get the bottom of the barrel developers. I hate to use to profane language but that is the dumbest shit I have heard in a long time. Are you trying to tell me that these great god-like developers just started in a big studio? No. They had to make quality work before they were hired. And if this, http://www.moddb.com/mods/angels-fall-first-planetstorm , http://www.moddb.com/mods/day-of-defeat , http://www.moddb.com/mods/team-fortress-classic , http://www.moddb.com/mods/counter-strike is bottom of the barrel big developers haven't even scratched anything good (and yes, 3 of those now have sequels that are highly acclaimed and some of the most played online games. The other one is still in a young beta stage, and is being said to be one of the best UTIII mods ever made). I guess I could have also linked you to Operation Peacekeeper 1 and 2, which has more players than many commercial games. Or maybe Forgotten Hope 1 and 2, which hosts about 600 players at any given time. I guess Project Reality could have worked too, a game that has been featured in about 25 different print magazines, about half of those being at least one full page, I believe 5 were two page spreads. There's also Zeno Clash, made by Indie developers.
And those highly skilled fancy-dancy programmers, craft what the big company wants them to craft and has it done when they want and it better be how they want it. Think of them as veteran worked at a car factory. They may be skilled, but it doesn't mean they are allowed to go out and make what they want.
____________________________
Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
---
== RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP ==
---
Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online
---
Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth
____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Kudos, best argument ever!
Why didn't I ever think of that, tell people (not ppl) to simply ignore every post that is against mine. That opens a whole new world, it's such a great tactic. Just ignore it if someone opposes you. American citizens probably should have ignored the bombing of Pearl Harbor, I mean, they're (not their) just Communists, so just ignore their big booms.
I know (not no) that we all have different opinions, but yours, is wrong (at points at least).
May I point out where you said "The more money, the better game". That's far from true. Take for example, CounterStrike, which had little/no budget and is ages better than the steaming pile that the general populous calls Halo 3. It's not so much the budget as the skill of the artists. The same applies to movies, as I have seen many fanfilms with a budget of 80-500 dollars that trump Hollywood Blockbusters with budgets in the millions of dollars.
I like to shop at the big stores too, they tend to have more in stock and it's a bit cheaper, I don't really see what that has to do with Indie developers though...
Please, if you want to be taken seriously, learn to spell correctly first of all, and don't say "People will disagree, but I don't like them, ignore them".
Thank you,
- Eric
Wtf your post doesn't make sense? So your butthurt over the war or something and some stuff about u being a cry baby or something. Also I can type ppl all I want because you can't stop me .
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
XD
Man, that is bordering on sig worthy material. Funny stuff...
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
XD
Man, that is bordering on sig worthy material. Funny stuff...
Thanks feel free to use it and spread the word that liberals are the anti-Christ.
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
XD
Man, that is bordering on sig worthy material. Funny stuff...
Thanks feel free to use it and spread the word that liberals are the anti-Christ.
this is sad.... i can't tell if you're serious, or the most epic troll ever.
Kudos, best argument ever!
Why didn't I ever think of that, tell people (not ppl) to simply ignore every post that is against mine. That opens a whole new world, it's such a great tactic. Just ignore it if someone opposes you. American citizens probably should have ignored the bombing of Pearl Harbor, I mean, they're (not their) just Communists, so just ignore their big booms.
I know (not no) that we all have different opinions, but yours, is wrong (at points at least).
May I point out where you said "The more money, the better game". That's far from true. Take for example, CounterStrike, which had little/no budget and is ages better than the steaming pile that the general populous calls Halo 3. It's not so much the budget as the skill of the artists. The same applies to movies, as I have seen many fanfilms with a budget of 80-500 dollars that trump Hollywood Blockbusters with budgets in the millions of dollars.
I like to shop at the big stores too, they tend to have more in stock and it's a bit cheaper, I don't really see what that has to do with Indie developers though...
Please, if you want to be taken seriously, learn to spell correctly first of all, and don't say "People will disagree, but I don't like them, ignore them".
Thank you,
- Eric
Wtf your post doesn't make sense? So your butthurt over the war or something and some stuff about u being a cry baby or something. Also I can type ppl all I want because you can't stop me .
It makes perfect sense, just try reading more than two words. It really does help, believe me, I've tried it
____________________________
Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
---
== RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP ==
---
Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online
---
Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth
____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Win, OP troll is win, for making you all get worked up.
Freedom to innovate? Big companies hire the most qualified devs with expirience while small/indie companies get stuck with the bottom of the barrel. Also to some ppl (like myself) graphics are a huge factor in games because I spend alot of money on updating my pc, so don't tell me what factors I should condsider.
the boss is probably people that are not gammers, and just want to "repeat" the sucess of wow making a wow clone. Is like people tryiing again and again to clone Pacman and Tetris forever, never triing to make something else. EVen if these guys are good, the result will be another wow, and we have more than enough of these.
While I agree that this is a nice troll thread, I also have to agree with the original sentiment.
I have never understood the "support indies because they're indies" lobbyists. If they have good, innovative or creative ideas then sure I will support them. If they deliver decent products I will support them.
However, defending them just because they are indie when they deliver steaming piles of junk is baffling to me.
I mean come on, I'll support that local Mexican indy restaurant over Taco Bell...so long as the food is at least as good...but if they serve bad food, have terrible waiters and overcharge...I'm gone...I don't keep going back and defending them.
This seems like a silly thread, but I'll bite.
First, let's try to remember that most major companies start off as small developers. Greatness isn't thrust upon them -- they earn it through innovation, hard work, and vision. To ignore today's small developers is to ignore tomorrow's major players in the market.
Second, a profitable company does not automatically equal a good MMO. You can throw money at a game all day long, but in the end, if you don't have the talent or the drive to make a game better in a significant way, it's not going to happen. A great example of this is Vanguard. SOE is a huge company with lots of resources -- Vanguard is their MMO and it's on life support at best. Star Wars Galaxies is another example. How many thousands of players have clamored for a pre-CU server? Common sense would tell you that it would be an instant hit in the MMO community. Does SOE listen? Nope. SOE is just one example of a large MMO company that means nothing in terms of being able to produce a quality product.
Finally, the MMO market is broad enough to accomodate the little guys and the big guys at the same time. It's not like RL where WalMart moves in and everything else shuts down. Even with WoW gobbling up a huge chunk of the market, there are dozens or more little companies out there that are doing more than just surviving -- they're profitable. The market is far from saturation.
Anywho, that's my response. It's just an opinion, so feel free to disagree.
I agree here. Bad games are bad games, and deserve to be ignored/hated. I hope people see my point. Poor production values don't make a game bad. Something like animations, sounds, voices... you need truckloads of money for these, and don't make the game more fun, but make the game more expensive. I think most people are "tricked" by bad games with great production values, and movies... and books...
Actually, if we have learned anything, making a good, fun, successful MMORPG is hard work, and few companies in the past 5 years has really pulled it off well, regardless of how much money they spent.
Even the big names like WAR, AOC, VG and others were released as bug riddled, incomplete messes, which certainly any small indie developer managed to equal.
Big money does not equal good games.... wish it did but usually all it guarentees is no risk taking and rehashes of has already worked in the past. Forget any thought of innovation.
But I agree, all developers have to be held to a higher quality standard at release than we've been receiving in the past few years.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Freedom to innovate? Big companies hire the most qualified devs with expirience while small/indie companies get stuck with the bottom of the barrel. Also to some ppl (like myself) graphics are a huge factor in games because I spend alot of money on updating my pc, so don't tell me what factors I should condsider.
the boss is probably people that are not gammers, and just want to "repeat" the sucess of wow making a wow clone. Is like people tryiing again and again to clone Pacman and Tetris forever, never triing to make something else. EVen if these guys are good, the result will be another wow, and we have more than enough of these.
Always this WOW hate.
Yes please give us more WOW's i would be so happy if we had 3-4 more games with those numbers of customers.
The more success this (MMO) industry has the more we can expect to see people putting money into developing games.
Sure we will get ton's of bad clone games.. and most will suck.. so what? Never have seen a game company that could force me to buy a game yet:)
The sad truth the folks that say they hate WOW just wont except is simple..take away the Blizzard name and the warcraft IP and they STILL would have one of the best games around.
Easy on the systems, easy to get into and have FUN with, lots of things to do. You know what the next big game is going to be? A game that easy on systems, easy to get into and have FUN with, and have lots of things to do in it:P
Freedom to innovate? Big companies hire the most qualified devs with expirience while small/indie companies get stuck with the bottom of the barrel. Also to some ppl (like myself) graphics are a huge factor in games because I spend alot of money on updating my pc, so don't tell me what factors I should condsider.
the boss is probably people that are not gammers, and just want to "repeat" the sucess of wow making a wow clone. Is like people tryiing again and again to clone Pacman and Tetris forever, never triing to make something else. EVen if these guys are good, the result will be another wow, and we have more than enough of these.
Always this WOW hate.
Yes. I hate WoW.
The way I hate McDonalds. I fail to see a burger from McDonalds as food. Is popular, and McDonalds make billions. People love it. The burger itself... is food that gray thing? It don't think is meat.
I probablly work with different standards as you.
I tried the WoW on a trial, 2 times, and quitted before teh 15 days. I was boring, a too simple game... I was with the feeling that the game was uncomplete, or something, because the combat was that boring. Nothing to do, from second zero. I fail to see how people can think that game is fun. Maybe for people that has never played a RPG before?
But he... is me. McDonalds make great food, and WoW is the awesome. I am probably wrong.
Guys, just because you can fail at making a good game with big money does not, in reverse, tell us that money does not matter. Frankly, looking at the smaller games released during the last years, one thing shows up a lot: Lack of content. However, lack of content is usually a matter of man-hours, which ultimately is about money.
I dont think its possible to make a good large MMORPG without a ton of money. Due to the fickle playerbase and expectations of consuming content at a quick pace, you need a LOT of content to keep people playing beyond the first 8 weeks or so. And that content doesnt come for free.
Alternative ways of creating content aside (sandbox elements, player-created content), mainstream MMOs (read: Theme-Park MMOs) need a huge pile of just standard content stuff. Thats not about innovation, its about meat on the bones of innovation, and that meat is the not-very-glorious work of getting a lot of guided, easy, fast-food content into the game.
That part made the troll a bit too obvious.
That part made the troll a bit too obvious.
But theirs enough idiots that fly into a nerd rage for our viewing pleasure. Just enjoy the fireworks
This poster has the attitude that everybody should fear. I'll go so far as to say that he is the cancer that is destroying our society. Shopping at "big stores" is inherently not evil in anyway, but, when you do more research and receive more data, you discover those big stores drive out the small mom and pap companies which initially allows the business roots to form in communities.
Also not supporting indie/small mmo developers eventually leads to only the big, multibillion dollar companies able to be profitable. This is a bad thing because it encourages monopolies which eventually lead to less and less to choose from for the consumer. Also, if said big company puts out a bad product, he knows it will sell nonethless and the consumers will have no other choice but to buy it because they have no other option. Microsoft is a perfect example of this process.
Support your local mom and pap stores and support the little guy!
Edit: I just realized OP is playing EVE which just further proves that he has no idea what he is talking about since EVE was created by an indie company.
wait wut
I think he is saying he supported Bush...
Must be nice to be one of the 20% of the US population who thinks the world is flat, health care should be earned, and possum road kill is the best tasting dish ever served out of a big black kettle.
I say if the game sucks, it flat out sucks. If it is a good game, more power to them. Whether the game company dumps a load of money into it or not isn't really relevant. A game company either helps the economy by dumping money into it or making something that works, or they go bankrupt after helping the economy because their game was crap.
WoW would have worked if Blizzard had invested $25.03 in it rather then billions. The graphics sure as hell didn't take a lot of time to do, and it isn't like they re-created the UI or reinvented the wheel to make the game. In fact I'd say they wasted a whole lot of money to make the game.
That's the problem though. If the consumer pace is comsuming content at an ever quickenning pace, and caring less and less about the road to endgame, the solution is not feeding more wood to that fire. It doesn't matter how good the content for an MMO is going to be, if the player base just wants to skip 80-90% of it. It's simply a waste. Small / indie developers have shown us that they can handle content, and we as players have shown that we don't give a crap.
The MMO community at large has been complaining about lack of originality in the MMO genre. This tends to come from those small / indie developers who need to take larger risks to be competitive. Abandon them, and you may as well bow down to the WoW clone.
You shouldn't support indies JUST because they're indies. You should give them a chance because sometimes their products surpass those of the big budget studios. They are also much more likely to use innovative ideas because they have less to lose.
If you're perfectly happy with the same-old same-old then big budget stuff is fine. Occasionally the big budget stuff even has some nifty new ideas. Then again if you really want something different then you're a whole lot more likely to find it from the in small developers.