The OP is just another one of those people who doesnt like fast paced gameplay and believes that reading a badly written online book and mashing buttons on an action bar in a formulaic routine means the player is intelligent. He also doesnt like the fact that MMOFPS games are on their way......which is tough luck really because plenty of others do. Lots of people like FPS games with action packed gameplay and soon they will finally have the option of having that gameplay in mmos......and thats a really good thing.
I love fast Fps gameplay.
Where did you get that out of my OP? I play Games like CS, TF2, CoD4 and L4D all the time.
Sorry but it was the general scorn you seem to be displaying towards that type of gameplay. Its also due to the fact that you have gone to the effort of starting a thread about how you dont want fps gameplay appearing in mmos.
If you like fast paced FPS gameplay then why are you so bothered about the idea of playing one of those games in a large persistent gameworld? Surely that would be fantastic fun right?
I never said I was smarter than anyone else due to my dislike of FPS combat in a mmorpg.
You're assuming alot of things about me in your post.
Apologies but assumptions are innevitable in a forum as we can all only resopnd to what we type.
Would have been nice ot have a third option to the poll, saying either as long as game play is fun.
I like both methods depending on the game. For a pve game I would like what is now in most games.
But for pvp I would like a fps style, although would prefer it in 3rd person or over the shoulder. Haveing pvp with no auto targeting, and you have to actually aim your swings/ shots, spells, etc. brings in a more challenging fight.
How ever for both styles I still would like an active skill bar. I prefer clicking on the bar with my mouse than pressing the 1-0 keys.
I like both styles of combat. My two favorite combat mmo's currently are Guild Wars and AoC. Both seem to offer different styles than the typical EQ/WoW style. Not exactly an fps but I enjoy the combat in both. I would love to see a Mass Effect style system put into an mmo but I think that would be problematic at best to impliment.
it depends on what I am playing...if I am playing an MMoRPG I want RPG combat, if its an MMoFPS then I want FPS combat, some of the newer games are hybrids of the 2 and thats ok as long as its advertised as a hybrid system of the 2 genres.
The OP is just another one of those people who doesnt like fast paced gameplay and believes that reading a badly written online book and mashing buttons on an action bar in a formulaic routine means the player is intelligent. He also doesnt like the fact that MMOFPS games are on their way......which is tough luck really because plenty of others do. Lots of people like FPS games with action packed gameplay and soon they will finally have the option of having that gameplay in mmos......and thats a really good thing.
I love fast Fps gameplay.
Where did you get that out of my OP? I play Games like CS, TF2, CoD4 and L4D all the time.
Sorry but it was the general scorn you seem to be displaying towards that type of gameplay. Its also due to the fact that you have gone to the effort of starting a thread about how you dont want fps gameplay appearing in mmos.
Yeah in MMOs I prefer slower action bar combat, while in Fps shooters I like my games fast.
If you like fast paced FPS gameplay then why are you so bothered about the idea of playing one of those games in a large persistent gameworld? Surely that would be fantastic fun right?
Because I like my MMOs to actually hold a different experience for me over my FPS games. If both FPS and MMO played the same It would suck imo. What variety would I have if I loaded up CS:S and two hours later loaded up a MMO with the same type of gameplay?
I never said I was smarter than anyone else due to my dislike of FPS combat in a mmorpg.
You're assuming alot of things about me in your post.
Apologies but assumptions are innevitable in a forum as we can all only resopnd to what we type.
These are only videogames, I would never consider myself smater than someone due to the game they enjoy.
i actually dont think fps games are more competetive then rpgs. i dont get the whole need to compete anyway.
its much more about bettering myself for me then defeating someone else. thats kinda childish for me.
after a few years playing the mmo style as it is now im just bored with the control style and with the complexety of the games, so i want a better way to control them so they can be more complex and imersive. like everyone would be bored playing pacman for hours now, im bored with mmos now because they have become to simple for me.
I refuse to answer Binary polls in which the OP will only use to dement the results to their thinking no matter the results are.
When I play a game I want to play a game that has mechanics that fully and totally support all the other mechanics in the game. If I were to take any preferance to this I would go for a game that had a slower combat system that forces you to think, decide, and force hands during the fight. Darkfall doesn't really have that but TCoS does, most RPG styles don't have that but EvE does tend to.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
i actually dont think fps games are more competetive then rpgs. i dont get the whole need to compete anyway. its much more about bettering myself for me then defeating someone else. thats kinda childish for me.
after a few years playing the mmo style as it is now im just bored with the control style and with the complexety of the games, so i want a better way to control them so they can be more complex and imersive. like everyone would be bored playing pacman for hours now, im bored with mmos now because they have become to simple for me.
I agree with this but there is only so much you can do with the medium used. Perhaps the future is virtual combat? Or play paintball (it can be fun, try it).
i actually dont think fps games are more competetive then rpgs. i dont get the whole need to compete anyway. its much more about bettering myself for me then defeating someone else. thats kinda childish for me.
after a few years playing the mmo style as it is now im just bored with the control style and with the complexety of the games, so i want a better way to control them so they can be more complex and imersive. like everyone would be bored playing pacman for hours now, im bored with mmos now because they have become to simple for me.
I agree with this but there is only so much you can do with the medium used. Perhaps the future is virtual combat? Or play paintball (it can be fun, try it).
hehe yeah sure i think painball can be fun, but i would feel soo silly running around in the woods dressed up hunting someone.
and of course i cant do a lot of things in paint ball i can do in video games. like blow half of the woods away, or even blowing up a house with an rpg, or stuff like that.
I am for rpg combat as long as it's well done. Much better something that need you to study the math, the meanings of what you can and cannot do, trying to benefit from the stats yo have at your disposal. You dont need to "study the maths" to play WoW or any of the other no-brainer mmos. Looking at a character sheet and choosing between a +5 dex bonus and +5 str bonus doesnt make you clever. Sorry to burst your bubble of intellectual superiority. Are you telling me that you sit there in front of your computer with a calculator adding up all your stats and calculating your percentage chance to hit a monster? Thats an extremely dull and robotic way to play a game. The computer works out the maths so the human can get on with enjoying him/herself. There is maths involved in all computer games......ya know those massive streams of code running in the background that people refer to as "code"? You can have all the stats, bonuses and whatever you like in a MMOFPS. Its not just something specific to games with action bars. I have much more respect for a game that is so mathematically complex that it manages to simulate aspects of real life without the player actually being able to see the maths in operation. I have to say, tho, that's not easy to build a rpg combat that way, as there is a big risk to get something too 'flat' where everyone can get exactly the same power, doing nothing special. Exactly. Which is why having extra variables in the gameplay (ie human input through the control method) makes an online game more random and interesting. If the only input from the player is to click the action in the action bar while everything else is purely determined by stats alone then the computer is the one playing the game more than the player is......which is when you end up with characters being too similar to each other. Fps combat is just mouse reflexes and good ping, totally mindless, apart of some exception coming from some hybrid mmo. Mouse reflexes? In all games a player who can think & click quicker is gonna come out on top. You could say exactly the same thing for a game that uses action bars and auto-targeting. The same applies to the "good ping" statement as well.......although I do agree that it is less relevant in a non-fps game but thats because the computer is playing the game more than the player is. Mindless? Get off you're high horse! You dont seriously think that intelligence is required to play any mmos such as WoW, EQ2, AoC or any of them do you? So you're saying that auto-targeting an opponent before looking down at an action bar and clicking on an ability requires more intelligence than having to chose your attack method, aim at an opponent and avoid their attacks while doing so? LMAO Neither method requires any more brains than the other. They are just different ways of playing games. About people speaking of 'skills' , i can only say that there 2 types of skills: brute force or mind tactics. I leave to your decision how fps and rpg combat relate to them. Yeah "brute force" applies to none of them and "mind tactics" applies to both of them. You cant use "brute force" when playing a computer game. You can ONLY use your mind and translate that through your keyboard and mouse.......no matter what the control method is. A thick person who resorts to brute force wont get anywhere in ANY game as thumping his keyboard and bashing his monitor wont achieve much. So, you can't be surprised that I agree with you. No I'm not surprised at all. You have the same superior and "high brow" attitude to mmos that the OP has and the same aversion to playing fast paced competitive games.
You typed all that purple bullshit just to say Rpg combat is newb shit and FPS requires skills!
Give me a break already, Also if you actually read my posts you would know I play Fast paced competitive games.
I dont remember saying using action bars and auto-targeting is "newb shit" or that FPS requires skill. I actually like both.
I have read your later posts and now I do indeed know that you like fps gameplay. You're original post didnt contain that information though.
i actually dont think fps games are more competetive then rpgs. i dont get the whole need to compete anyway. its much more about bettering myself for me then defeating someone else. thats kinda childish for me.
after a few years playing the mmo style as it is now im just bored with the control style and with the complexety of the games, so i want a better way to control them so they can be more complex and imersive. like everyone would be bored playing pacman for hours now, im bored with mmos now because they have become to simple for me.
I agree with this but there is only so much you can do with the medium used. Perhaps the future is virtual combat? Or play paintball (it can be fun, try it).
hehe yeah sure i think painball can be fun, but i would feel soo silly running around in the woods dressed up hunting someone.
and of course i cant do a lot of things in paint ball i can do in video games. like blow half of the woods away, or even blowing up a house with an rpg, or stuff like that.
Well certainly true, that's why I said the future is virtual combat, where you can feel like you are participating and blowing up stuff in a video game and have the same interactivity that a real life activity such as paintball provides.
I like a mixture of both, in 3rd person, so I didn't vote. Competitive or not it's just more fun for me that way. I like it easy to play hard to master.
The OP is just another one of those people who doesnt like fast paced gameplay and believes that reading a badly written online book and mashing buttons on an action bar in a formulaic routine means the player is intelligent. He also doesnt like the fact that MMOFPS games are on their way......which is tough luck really because plenty of others do. Lots of people like FPS games with action packed gameplay and soon they will finally have the option of having that gameplay in mmos......and thats a really good thing.
I love fast Fps gameplay.
Where did you get that out of my OP? I play Games like CS, TF2, CoD4 and L4D all the time.
Sorry but it was the general scorn you seem to be displaying towards that type of gameplay. Its also due to the fact that you have gone to the effort of starting a thread about how you dont want fps gameplay appearing in mmos.
Yeah in MMOs I prefer slower action bar combat, while in Fps shooters I like my games fast.
Yeah I quite like the slower pace of mmos too......but sometimes I find myself wanting the faster paced gameplay of an fps or even an rts game in an mmo......and then I'm stuck because there isnt anything to choose from.
Currently the genre only seems to be catering to your prefered method of playing games. What about everyone else? Now that it seems that more varied playstyles are being incorporated into mmos you seem to be complaining about the variety, even though it doesnt stop you from continueing to play the types of game which you like. Thats a little bit selfish dont ya think?
If you like fast paced FPS gameplay then why are you so bothered about the idea of playing one of those games in a large persistent gameworld? Surely that would be fantastic fun right?
Because I like my MMOs to actually hold a different experience for me over my FPS games. If both FPS and MMO played the same It would suck imo. What variety would I have if I loaded up CS:S and two hours later loaded up a MMO with the same type of gameplay?
Here is the solution to that dilemna. You play your FPS game for a bit.....then if you dont want to play an mmo which also has fps gameplay in it you.......
Dont play a MMOFPS or a MMORPG which has fps gameplay in it.
You load up a mmorpg which you know has action bars and auto-targeting in it. Wow isnt the power of free will such an awesome thing?!
You seem to be under this misconception that if FPS gameplay appears in mmos then it will be the ONLY thing you will have to choose from. You will still have your old button clicking mmos to play but additionally you (and everyone else on the planet) will have the option of choosing something else.
Besides playing an FPS game in a persistent gameworld with all the rpg elements that would inevitably come with that would be a vastly different experience to what you get in the multiplayer options in games like CoD4. Just because a method of controlling your character is similar it doesnt mean the game itself is going to be the same.
I'm currently playing Dawn of War 2. Its a strategy game where I order units about on a map......but that doesnt mean I'm getting the same experience from it that I get from other strategy games.
I never said I was smarter than anyone else due to my dislike of FPS combat in a mmorpg.
You're assuming alot of things about me in your post.
Apologies but assumptions are innevitable in a forum as we can all only resopnd to what we type.
These are only videogames, I would never consider myself smater than someone due to the game they enjoy.
i actually dont think fps games are more competetive then rpgs. i dont get the whole need to compete anyway. its much more about bettering myself for me then defeating someone else. thats kinda childish for me.
after a few years playing the mmo style as it is now im just bored with the control style and with the complexety of the games, so i want a better way to control them so they can be more complex and imersive. like everyone would be bored playing pacman for hours now, im bored with mmos now because they have become to simple for me.
I agree with this but there is only so much you can do with the medium used. Perhaps the future is virtual combat? Or play paintball (it can be fun, try it).
hehe yeah sure i think painball can be fun, but i would feel soo silly running around in the woods dressed up hunting someone.
and of course i cant do a lot of things in paint ball i can do in video games. like blow half of the woods away, or even blowing up a house with an rpg, or stuff like that.
You cant do that stuff in most mmos either as they dont allow you to effect the gameworld. In fact in most of them we cant even effect each other because it makes people cry.
Paintball is great fun though. You should try it. Hunting people in real life is so much more exciting than sitting in your room chasing pixels. Its also good excercise.
I can't see another way to implement any type of melee/ranged combat that gave you the variety of choices you get in, say (for lack of a better universal example) WoW does, except with hot bars. Short of requiring people to buy special toys like the Wii controller JUST to play a single computer game (not to mention the equipment needed to detect said toys).
I suspect that such a combat system is possible, but the hot bars make it far easier to comprehend. If MMOs used a melee/fps system like the oldish Jedi Academy games used, most people would mash the mouse button and very few would likely maximize their effectiveness with anything remotely resembling tactics. More often then not, people wouldn't like it. Basically you moved around and clicked the mouse button a lot while trying to aim your curser at the enemy, jumping here and there for good measure.
The learning curve is a huge step to make. Any game trying to be innovative or take a completely new approach would have to make their new system more effective, while making it easy to learn and understand.
Yes I put a lot of thought into this, possible changes, and things I'd do if I made my own MMO.
i dont think thats true. or better said that its not possible because of skill limitation and tactics. i think it would be even more tactical then it is now.
if you think about the hunter for example, pet controls would stay close the the same way they are.
then you have offensive skills that basically only differ in the amout of dmg they do and how they do it, like instant dmg or dots. then you have your 2 aoe skills (it was 2 right? man i haven played wow in 18 months).
now your offensive bow/crossbow skill could easy be changed like weapons or ammo types in fps games.
lets say mouse 1 is like the normal auto attack, if you shot him in the leg its slows him down, you hit his arm or shoulder it interupts spells, you hit im in the head it dazes him so he cant move for a second, all they of course could be fine tuned by making the effect only possible x seconds so they arent overpowerd if they were otherwise.
now you turn the mouswheel up 1 notch before you shot with your mouse you do a viper sting ( i hope thats what the poison dot was called). it snaps back to normal auto shot after you done 1 viper sting.
now mouse wheel down 1 notch could be that shot wich you do between the autoshots normally and i dont know what its called anymore but you get my meaning.
2 nothes up or down could be skills wich you dont use as often like debuffs wich a duration like a minute or more like skopid sting and the other debuff i cant recall its name anymore. more then 2 nothes up or down would become awkward so lets keep it at 2 even though more would be possible.
for an aimed shot you would just have to keep mouse 1 pressed for more then x seconds.
so now only with the mouse we coverd autoshot, slowshot, dazeshot, breakcast, aimedshot and 4 offensive skills or debuffs, mouse 3 could be rapid fire and mouse 2 a slight zoom, wich could give more accuracy. so we coverd 10 skills just with the mouse.
now wasd would be for moving, space jumping and shift to sprint ( yeah i know wow dosent have sprint but its one of the nice things about aoc so it should have it ^^)
now the q key could bring up a trap menu you scroll through with the mouse wheel when pressed and place the trap when released so thats another 5 skills.
now 1 and 2 could be used for mana and health drinks other pots are normally used before the fight, but if the need comes the mouse could jump to a wow like version when you open your bags.
tab could be used to switch to melee mode, switching weapons and skills on the mouse and mousewheel. (now i agree that melee would be more awkward when done jedi acedemy style, and i think the only way to go about it would be a kind of combo system but not the lame ass aoc press key wait press key combos, thats much more like a canalized spell then a combo, of course something a game pad or a wii mote would be great and basically these controlers are the reason there a game consoles, because all games use them, some very well, because everyone that has the console has the controller)
now taking ranged an melee togerther we have ~ 27 skills to use just by using 4 keys (beside movement keys) and the mouse.
with at least another 10 keys more or less easy reachable without taking the hand of the wasd pad completly (3,4,e,r, t, f,g,y,x,c,ctrl, alt, circumflex, and if you dont have small hands f1-f2) you see it would be hard ar all to put all skills you got in an wow character and then some in a menu to use fps style. it takes some intelligent design but it would be easily done.
It made my eyes bleed but I got the gist of it before losing conciousness.
The problem with this set up, as I've stated before, is that it is complicated while not really improving the efficiency of the system one bit. My post wasn't about "how to turn an RPG into an FPS" but rather about how you implement a UI that doesn't kill braincells when someone attempts to figure it out. The Jedi Academy refrence was an example of an FPS style game that included melee and ranged combat.
My point was that the hot bar is quick, clean, and easy. Especially for people who are use to the set up. If you want to make a UI that people can get comfy with quickly (and that is the key, we humans have little patience with things we can't figure out on our own), you need to keep a version of the hot bar in place.
Don't get me wrong, I liked what you came up with. I think it would have been a fun UI to use. However I can't approach it as just me and claim to have an accurate perspective of it. I have to think like unwashed masses and say "durr" once in awhile.
I am definitely biased toward systems that require player reflexes and tactics. Movement and positioning are underused in MMOG combat systems.
I sorta took offense to the first few posts where it sounds like people are saying that the combat style in games like Darkfall, TCoS, and DDO makes them NOT be RPG's. Sorry but those are definitely RPG's.
I was fine with the whole auto-attack and action bar combat 11 years ago in the early EQ closed beta. Its a fine system, but its been overdone so much by now that I am craving something different. I don't even always care if its better as long as its different.
Its also about time someone tries to define 'skill'... Does it mean reflexes? Does it mean knowledge? Does it mean bunny hopping around and rocket blast jumping while making head shots with a rail gun?
I am definitely biased toward systems that require player reflexes and tactics. Movement and positioning are underused in MMOG combat systems.
I sorta took offense to the first few posts where it sounds like people are saying that the combat style in games like Darkfall, TCoS, and DDO makes them NOT be RPG's. Sorry but those are definitely RPG's.
I was fine with the whole auto-attack and action bar combat 11 years ago in the early EQ closed beta. Its a fine system, but its been overdone so much by now that I am craving something different. I don't even always care if its better as long as its different.
Its also about time someone tries to define 'skill'... Does it mean reflexes? Does it mean knowledge? Does it mean bunny hopping around and rocket blast jumping while making head shots with a rail gun?
I have tried for years to get people to settle on a definition to no avail.
Basically RPGs require different skills (and less quantities honestly) then FPS games. The fact that they are different skills makes comparison hard for people who have only played one or the other. But the simple truth is FPS games require both hands working in unison with your eyes. You have to think, act, and react quickly in order to stay alive in an FPS style combat. RPG combat is much slower and can be done effectively with 3 fingers. One to tab to next target, one to stick to the target, and one to push the appropriate 1-9 keys to attack or what have you. Yet RPGs require that you watch for aggro, keep your team mates alive in whatever way you can, and make sure you aren't the one screwing things up by over pulling or aggroing everything in sight.
There is less room for error in FPS style combat, but RPG style combat can make errors hurt much much more.
If it's an mmorpg, use rpg combat. If it's using fps combat call it something other than mmorpg such as mmofps. calling an mmofps game a mmorpg game is deceptive marketing imo.
If it's an mmorpg, use rpg combat. If it's using fps combat call it something other than mmorpg such as mmofps. calling an mmofps game a mmorpg game is deceptive marketing imo.
I'm sorry but...what? Since when does RPG (which stands for Roleplaying game, a game in which you are required to play a character, or act like one) can't apply to a game because of combat mechanics?
Furthermore, FPS, or first-person shooters, are exactly that, shooters. It doesn't really apply to a fantasy game where at least 60% of the combats are melee. And most of the time, you are not in combat.
It's like you've taken all the RPG elements of every one of those games and replaced it with the acronym MMO, which only means where plenty on one server.
Originally the term RPG refered to a game where you played a character and went through a story line. You were typically a first person character (or 3rd person).
Oblivon was an RPG, it used a so called "FPS" fighting style but I don't think anyone would deny the fact that it was an RPG. Planetside was an MMOFPS because it had zero content beyond killing people. It was a massive 3 way war and nothing else. No quests, no storylines, no hunting animals, no roleplaying at all. All it really had in terms of a story line was the original world setting and major events that changed the world.
And what would you classify Tabula Rasa as? Yeah the game died, but what was it? It was an MMORPG that had an FPS feel to it. And Star Wars Galaxies? It was an MMORPG with firearms. Does that make it an FPS?
My point is the terms RPG and FPS have become obsolete as literal terms. The lines have been so thoroughly blurred that you can only refrence "RPG combat system" and "FPS combat system" which is basically the difference between player accuracy and the roll of a set of dice.
I am definitely biased toward systems that require player reflexes and tactics. Movement and positioning are underused in MMOG combat systems.
I sorta took offense to the first few posts where it sounds like people are saying that the combat style in games like Darkfall, TCoS, and DDO makes them NOT be RPG's. Sorry but those are definitely RPG's.
I was fine with the whole auto-attack and action bar combat 11 years ago in the early EQ closed beta. Its a fine system, but its been overdone so much by now that I am craving something different. I don't even always care if its better as long as its different.
Its also about time someone tries to define 'skill'... Does it mean reflexes? Does it mean knowledge? Does it mean bunny hopping around and rocket blast jumping while making head shots with a rail gun?
I have tried for years to get people to settle on a definition to no avail.
Basically RPGs require different skills (and less quantities honestly) then FPS games. The fact that they are different skills makes comparison hard for people who have only played one or the other. But the simple truth is FPS games require both hands working in unison with your eyes. You have to think, act, and react quickly in order to stay alive in an FPS style combat. RPG combat is much slower and can be done effectively with 3 fingers. One to tab to next target, one to stick to the target, and one to push the appropriate 1-9 keys to attack or what have you. Yet RPGs require that you watch for aggro, keep your team mates alive in whatever way you can, and make sure you aren't the one screwing things up by over pulling or aggroing everything in sight.
There is less room for error in FPS style combat, but RPG style combat can make errors hurt much much more.
I agree with all of that but the bit highlighted in blue would also apply to a MMORPG with FPS gameplay as well. Why would monsters not aggro you simply because the game uses FPS controls? You would still have to keep your team alive and make sure you arent screwing things up with tactical mistakes and so forth. You seem to be giving the impression that these things are only unique to mmos which use action bars and auto-targeting.
In a way I guess you could argue that this is sort of true as a typical response to this would be "well name an mmofps game where these things apply" to which my only answer would be "Well if someone actually made one I would be able to name it". In other words the only reason all of this applies to so-called rpgs and not fps games is because games companies havent been making any. Its not because monster aggro and team work dont apply to that kind of playstyle though. I guess we would need to actually see and play some decent mmos which use fps gameplay to accurately judge this......which is kind of the whole point really isnt it. We dont have any which shows how side-tracked game companies have been with the over-used action bar control method.
By the way your description above of how a FPS control method could work in an mmo was really good. I could see that working very well actually. It might seem tricky at first but after a while it would become second nature as with any game. For example in Battlefield 2142 you can issue and respond to a variety of different orders to squad mates with a simple button press and then a brief movement/click of the mouse. This could quite easily be expanded upon in an mmo.
If it's an mmorpg, use rpg combat. If it's using fps combat call it something other than mmorpg such as mmofps. calling an mmofps game a mmorpg game is deceptive marketing imo.
I'm sorry but...what? Since when does RPG (which stands for Roleplaying game, a game in which you are required to play a character, or act like one) can't apply to a game because of combat mechanics?
Furthermore, FPS, or first-person shooters, are exactly that, shooters. It doesn't really apply to a fantasy game where at least 60% of the combats are melee. And most of the time, you are not in combat.
It's like you've taken all the RPG elements of every one of those games and replaced it with the acronym MMO, which only means where plenty on one server.
Yeah its annoying isnt it. People have become so utterly brainwashed by the fact that games companies keep making mmos that use action bars and auto-targeting that they now genuinely believe that for a game to be classed as a Role Playing Game it MUST have this control method. For them anything else means it isnt an rpg. Its really quite daft.
For example what is all this crap abour "RPG combat"? What the hell is RPG combat? Action bars and auto-targeting? Since when? Who made that rule up?......and why the hell should everyone subscribe to this uninformative description anyway?
I remember playing Deliverance many years back. It was an over-the-shoulder first-person role playing game in which you controlled all of your attack moves with combinations of key-presses, mouse clicks and mouse movements. It didnt have a long list of glowing buttons where you select your attacks as though you were ordering something from an online catalogue. So that game had "RPG combat" too. In fact there are plenty of rpgs that dont use a silly menu for attacking things.
Comments
I love fast Fps gameplay.
Where did you get that out of my OP? I play Games like CS, TF2, CoD4 and L4D all the time.
Sorry but it was the general scorn you seem to be displaying towards that type of gameplay. Its also due to the fact that you have gone to the effort of starting a thread about how you dont want fps gameplay appearing in mmos.
If you like fast paced FPS gameplay then why are you so bothered about the idea of playing one of those games in a large persistent gameworld? Surely that would be fantastic fun right?
I never said I was smarter than anyone else due to my dislike of FPS combat in a mmorpg.
You're assuming alot of things about me in your post.
Apologies but assumptions are innevitable in a forum as we can all only resopnd to what we type.
Would have been nice ot have a third option to the poll, saying either as long as game play is fun.
I like both methods depending on the game. For a pve game I would like what is now in most games.
But for pvp I would like a fps style, although would prefer it in 3rd person or over the shoulder. Haveing pvp with no auto targeting, and you have to actually aim your swings/ shots, spells, etc. brings in a more challenging fight.
How ever for both styles I still would like an active skill bar. I prefer clicking on the bar with my mouse than pressing the 1-0 keys.
Well at least that is my opinion.
MMOs don't have to RPGs. There is no reason we can't have different styles in different game.
Tho, the hard target system is getting a bit old and dated.
I like both styles of combat. My two favorite combat mmo's currently are Guild Wars and AoC. Both seem to offer different styles than the typical EQ/WoW style. Not exactly an fps but I enjoy the combat in both. I would love to see a Mass Effect style system put into an mmo but I think that would be problematic at best to impliment.
it depends on what I am playing...if I am playing an MMoRPG I want RPG combat, if its an MMoFPS then I want FPS combat, some of the newer games are hybrids of the 2 and thats ok as long as its advertised as a hybrid system of the 2 genres.
Godz of War I call Thee
I love fast Fps gameplay.
Where did you get that out of my OP? I play Games like CS, TF2, CoD4 and L4D all the time.
Sorry but it was the general scorn you seem to be displaying towards that type of gameplay. Its also due to the fact that you have gone to the effort of starting a thread about how you dont want fps gameplay appearing in mmos.
Yeah in MMOs I prefer slower action bar combat, while in Fps shooters I like my games fast.
If you like fast paced FPS gameplay then why are you so bothered about the idea of playing one of those games in a large persistent gameworld? Surely that would be fantastic fun right?
Because I like my MMOs to actually hold a different experience for me over my FPS games. If both FPS and MMO played the same It would suck imo. What variety would I have if I loaded up CS:S and two hours later loaded up a MMO with the same type of gameplay?
I never said I was smarter than anyone else due to my dislike of FPS combat in a mmorpg.
You're assuming alot of things about me in your post.
Apologies but assumptions are innevitable in a forum as we can all only resopnd to what we type.
These are only videogames, I would never consider myself smater than someone due to the game they enjoy.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
i actually dont think fps games are more competetive then rpgs. i dont get the whole need to compete anyway.
its much more about bettering myself for me then defeating someone else. thats kinda childish for me.
after a few years playing the mmo style as it is now im just bored with the control style and with the complexety of the games, so i want a better way to control them so they can be more complex and imersive. like everyone would be bored playing pacman for hours now, im bored with mmos now because they have become to simple for me.
I refuse to answer Binary polls in which the OP will only use to dement the results to their thinking no matter the results are.
When I play a game I want to play a game that has mechanics that fully and totally support all the other mechanics in the game. If I were to take any preferance to this I would go for a game that had a slower combat system that forces you to think, decide, and force hands during the fight. Darkfall doesn't really have that but TCoS does, most RPG styles don't have that but EvE does tend to.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
I agree with this but there is only so much you can do with the medium used. Perhaps the future is virtual combat? Or play paintball (it can be fun, try it).
I agree with this but there is only so much you can do with the medium used. Perhaps the future is virtual combat? Or play paintball (it can be fun, try it).
hehe yeah sure i think painball can be fun, but i would feel soo silly running around in the woods dressed up hunting someone.
and of course i cant do a lot of things in paint ball i can do in video games. like blow half of the woods away, or even blowing up a house with an rpg, or stuff like that.
You typed all that purple bullshit just to say Rpg combat is newb shit and FPS requires skills!
Give me a break already, Also if you actually read my posts you would know I play Fast paced competitive games.
I dont remember saying using action bars and auto-targeting is "newb shit" or that FPS requires skill. I actually like both.
I have read your later posts and now I do indeed know that you like fps gameplay. You're original post didnt contain that information though.
I agree with this but there is only so much you can do with the medium used. Perhaps the future is virtual combat? Or play paintball (it can be fun, try it).
hehe yeah sure i think painball can be fun, but i would feel soo silly running around in the woods dressed up hunting someone.
and of course i cant do a lot of things in paint ball i can do in video games. like blow half of the woods away, or even blowing up a house with an rpg, or stuff like that.
Well certainly true, that's why I said the future is virtual combat, where you can feel like you are participating and blowing up stuff in a video game and have the same interactivity that a real life activity such as paintball provides.
I like a mixture of both, in 3rd person, so I didn't vote. Competitive or not it's just more fun for me that way. I like it easy to play hard to master.
I love fast Fps gameplay.
Where did you get that out of my OP? I play Games like CS, TF2, CoD4 and L4D all the time.
Sorry but it was the general scorn you seem to be displaying towards that type of gameplay. Its also due to the fact that you have gone to the effort of starting a thread about how you dont want fps gameplay appearing in mmos.
Yeah in MMOs I prefer slower action bar combat, while in Fps shooters I like my games fast.
Yeah I quite like the slower pace of mmos too......but sometimes I find myself wanting the faster paced gameplay of an fps or even an rts game in an mmo......and then I'm stuck because there isnt anything to choose from.
Currently the genre only seems to be catering to your prefered method of playing games. What about everyone else? Now that it seems that more varied playstyles are being incorporated into mmos you seem to be complaining about the variety, even though it doesnt stop you from continueing to play the types of game which you like. Thats a little bit selfish dont ya think?
If you like fast paced FPS gameplay then why are you so bothered about the idea of playing one of those games in a large persistent gameworld? Surely that would be fantastic fun right?
Because I like my MMOs to actually hold a different experience for me over my FPS games. If both FPS and MMO played the same It would suck imo. What variety would I have if I loaded up CS:S and two hours later loaded up a MMO with the same type of gameplay?
Here is the solution to that dilemna. You play your FPS game for a bit.....then if you dont want to play an mmo which also has fps gameplay in it you.......
Dont play a MMOFPS or a MMORPG which has fps gameplay in it.
You load up a mmorpg which you know has action bars and auto-targeting in it. Wow isnt the power of free will such an awesome thing?!
You seem to be under this misconception that if FPS gameplay appears in mmos then it will be the ONLY thing you will have to choose from. You will still have your old button clicking mmos to play but additionally you (and everyone else on the planet) will have the option of choosing something else.
Besides playing an FPS game in a persistent gameworld with all the rpg elements that would inevitably come with that would be a vastly different experience to what you get in the multiplayer options in games like CoD4. Just because a method of controlling your character is similar it doesnt mean the game itself is going to be the same.
I'm currently playing Dawn of War 2. Its a strategy game where I order units about on a map......but that doesnt mean I'm getting the same experience from it that I get from other strategy games.
I never said I was smarter than anyone else due to my dislike of FPS combat in a mmorpg.
You're assuming alot of things about me in your post.
Apologies but assumptions are innevitable in a forum as we can all only resopnd to what we type.
These are only videogames, I would never consider myself smater than someone due to the game they enjoy.
Fair enough.
I agree with this but there is only so much you can do with the medium used. Perhaps the future is virtual combat? Or play paintball (it can be fun, try it).
hehe yeah sure i think painball can be fun, but i would feel soo silly running around in the woods dressed up hunting someone.
and of course i cant do a lot of things in paint ball i can do in video games. like blow half of the woods away, or even blowing up a house with an rpg, or stuff like that.
You cant do that stuff in most mmos either as they dont allow you to effect the gameworld. In fact in most of them we cant even effect each other because it makes people cry.
Paintball is great fun though. You should try it. Hunting people in real life is so much more exciting than sitting in your room chasing pixels. Its also good excercise.
i dont think thats true. or better said that its not possible because of skill limitation and tactics. i think it would be even more tactical then it is now.
if you think about the hunter for example, pet controls would stay close the the same way they are.
then you have offensive skills that basically only differ in the amout of dmg they do and how they do it, like instant dmg or dots. then you have your 2 aoe skills (it was 2 right? man i haven played wow in 18 months).
now your offensive bow/crossbow skill could easy be changed like weapons or ammo types in fps games.
lets say mouse 1 is like the normal auto attack, if you shot him in the leg its slows him down, you hit his arm or shoulder it interupts spells, you hit im in the head it dazes him so he cant move for a second, all they of course could be fine tuned by making the effect only possible x seconds so they arent overpowerd if they were otherwise.
now you turn the mouswheel up 1 notch before you shot with your mouse you do a viper sting ( i hope thats what the poison dot was called). it snaps back to normal auto shot after you done 1 viper sting.
now mouse wheel down 1 notch could be that shot wich you do between the autoshots normally and i dont know what its called anymore but you get my meaning.
2 nothes up or down could be skills wich you dont use as often like debuffs wich a duration like a minute or more like skopid sting and the other debuff i cant recall its name anymore. more then 2 nothes up or down would become awkward so lets keep it at 2 even though more would be possible.
for an aimed shot you would just have to keep mouse 1 pressed for more then x seconds.
so now only with the mouse we coverd autoshot, slowshot, dazeshot, breakcast, aimedshot and 4 offensive skills or debuffs, mouse 3 could be rapid fire and mouse 2 a slight zoom, wich could give more accuracy. so we coverd 10 skills just with the mouse.
now wasd would be for moving, space jumping and shift to sprint ( yeah i know wow dosent have sprint but its one of the nice things about aoc so it should have it ^^)
now the q key could bring up a trap menu you scroll through with the mouse wheel when pressed and place the trap when released so thats another 5 skills.
now 1 and 2 could be used for mana and health drinks other pots are normally used before the fight, but if the need comes the mouse could jump to a wow like version when you open your bags.
tab could be used to switch to melee mode, switching weapons and skills on the mouse and mousewheel. (now i agree that melee would be more awkward when done jedi acedemy style, and i think the only way to go about it would be a kind of combo system but not the lame ass aoc press key wait press key combos, thats much more like a canalized spell then a combo, of course something a game pad or a wii mote would be great and basically these controlers are the reason there a game consoles, because all games use them, some very well, because everyone that has the console has the controller)
now taking ranged an melee togerther we have ~ 27 skills to use just by using 4 keys (beside movement keys) and the mouse.
with at least another 10 keys more or less easy reachable without taking the hand of the wasd pad completly (3,4,e,r, t, f,g,y,x,c,ctrl, alt, circumflex, and if you dont have small hands f1-f2) you see it would be hard ar all to put all skills you got in an wow character and then some in a menu to use fps style. it takes some intelligent design but it would be easily done.
It made my eyes bleed but I got the gist of it before losing conciousness.
The problem with this set up, as I've stated before, is that it is complicated while not really improving the efficiency of the system one bit. My post wasn't about "how to turn an RPG into an FPS" but rather about how you implement a UI that doesn't kill braincells when someone attempts to figure it out. The Jedi Academy refrence was an example of an FPS style game that included melee and ranged combat.
My point was that the hot bar is quick, clean, and easy. Especially for people who are use to the set up. If you want to make a UI that people can get comfy with quickly (and that is the key, we humans have little patience with things we can't figure out on our own), you need to keep a version of the hot bar in place.
Don't get me wrong, I liked what you came up with. I think it would have been a fun UI to use. However I can't approach it as just me and claim to have an accurate perspective of it. I have to think like unwashed masses and say "durr" once in awhile.
I am definitely biased toward systems that require player reflexes and tactics. Movement and positioning are underused in MMOG combat systems.
I sorta took offense to the first few posts where it sounds like people are saying that the combat style in games like Darkfall, TCoS, and DDO makes them NOT be RPG's. Sorry but those are definitely RPG's.
I was fine with the whole auto-attack and action bar combat 11 years ago in the early EQ closed beta. Its a fine system, but its been overdone so much by now that I am craving something different. I don't even always care if its better as long as its different.
Its also about time someone tries to define 'skill'... Does it mean reflexes? Does it mean knowledge? Does it mean bunny hopping around and rocket blast jumping while making head shots with a rail gun?
I rather not have the fps. I never have enjoy any fps games. As for fps combat I was in the army and a cop so I think I've had about enough.
I have tried for years to get people to settle on a definition to no avail.
Basically RPGs require different skills (and less quantities honestly) then FPS games. The fact that they are different skills makes comparison hard for people who have only played one or the other. But the simple truth is FPS games require both hands working in unison with your eyes. You have to think, act, and react quickly in order to stay alive in an FPS style combat. RPG combat is much slower and can be done effectively with 3 fingers. One to tab to next target, one to stick to the target, and one to push the appropriate 1-9 keys to attack or what have you. Yet RPGs require that you watch for aggro, keep your team mates alive in whatever way you can, and make sure you aren't the one screwing things up by over pulling or aggroing everything in sight.
There is less room for error in FPS style combat, but RPG style combat can make errors hurt much much more.
If it's an mmorpg, use rpg combat. If it's using fps combat call it something other than mmorpg such as mmofps. calling an mmofps game a mmorpg game is deceptive marketing imo.
I'm sorry but...what? Since when does RPG (which stands for Roleplaying game, a game in which you are required to play a character, or act like one) can't apply to a game because of combat mechanics?
Furthermore, FPS, or first-person shooters, are exactly that, shooters. It doesn't really apply to a fantasy game where at least 60% of the combats are melee. And most of the time, you are not in combat.
It's like you've taken all the RPG elements of every one of those games and replaced it with the acronym MMO, which only means where plenty on one server.
Originally the term RPG refered to a game where you played a character and went through a story line. You were typically a first person character (or 3rd person).
Oblivon was an RPG, it used a so called "FPS" fighting style but I don't think anyone would deny the fact that it was an RPG. Planetside was an MMOFPS because it had zero content beyond killing people. It was a massive 3 way war and nothing else. No quests, no storylines, no hunting animals, no roleplaying at all. All it really had in terms of a story line was the original world setting and major events that changed the world.
And what would you classify Tabula Rasa as? Yeah the game died, but what was it? It was an MMORPG that had an FPS feel to it. And Star Wars Galaxies? It was an MMORPG with firearms. Does that make it an FPS?
My point is the terms RPG and FPS have become obsolete as literal terms. The lines have been so thoroughly blurred that you can only refrence "RPG combat system" and "FPS combat system" which is basically the difference between player accuracy and the roll of a set of dice.
I have tried for years to get people to settle on a definition to no avail.
Basically RPGs require different skills (and less quantities honestly) then FPS games. The fact that they are different skills makes comparison hard for people who have only played one or the other. But the simple truth is FPS games require both hands working in unison with your eyes. You have to think, act, and react quickly in order to stay alive in an FPS style combat. RPG combat is much slower and can be done effectively with 3 fingers. One to tab to next target, one to stick to the target, and one to push the appropriate 1-9 keys to attack or what have you. Yet RPGs require that you watch for aggro, keep your team mates alive in whatever way you can, and make sure you aren't the one screwing things up by over pulling or aggroing everything in sight.
There is less room for error in FPS style combat, but RPG style combat can make errors hurt much much more.
I agree with all of that but the bit highlighted in blue would also apply to a MMORPG with FPS gameplay as well. Why would monsters not aggro you simply because the game uses FPS controls? You would still have to keep your team alive and make sure you arent screwing things up with tactical mistakes and so forth. You seem to be giving the impression that these things are only unique to mmos which use action bars and auto-targeting.
In a way I guess you could argue that this is sort of true as a typical response to this would be "well name an mmofps game where these things apply" to which my only answer would be "Well if someone actually made one I would be able to name it". In other words the only reason all of this applies to so-called rpgs and not fps games is because games companies havent been making any. Its not because monster aggro and team work dont apply to that kind of playstyle though. I guess we would need to actually see and play some decent mmos which use fps gameplay to accurately judge this......which is kind of the whole point really isnt it. We dont have any which shows how side-tracked game companies have been with the over-used action bar control method.
By the way your description above of how a FPS control method could work in an mmo was really good. I could see that working very well actually. It might seem tricky at first but after a while it would become second nature as with any game. For example in Battlefield 2142 you can issue and respond to a variety of different orders to squad mates with a simple button press and then a brief movement/click of the mouse. This could quite easily be expanded upon in an mmo.
I'm sorry but...what? Since when does RPG (which stands for Roleplaying game, a game in which you are required to play a character, or act like one) can't apply to a game because of combat mechanics?
Furthermore, FPS, or first-person shooters, are exactly that, shooters. It doesn't really apply to a fantasy game where at least 60% of the combats are melee. And most of the time, you are not in combat.
It's like you've taken all the RPG elements of every one of those games and replaced it with the acronym MMO, which only means where plenty on one server.
Yeah its annoying isnt it. People have become so utterly brainwashed by the fact that games companies keep making mmos that use action bars and auto-targeting that they now genuinely believe that for a game to be classed as a Role Playing Game it MUST have this control method. For them anything else means it isnt an rpg. Its really quite daft.
For example what is all this crap abour "RPG combat"? What the hell is RPG combat? Action bars and auto-targeting? Since when? Who made that rule up?......and why the hell should everyone subscribe to this uninformative description anyway?
I remember playing Deliverance many years back. It was an over-the-shoulder first-person role playing game in which you controlled all of your attack moves with combinations of key-presses, mouse clicks and mouse movements. It didnt have a long list of glowing buttons where you select your attacks as though you were ordering something from an online catalogue. So that game had "RPG combat" too. In fact there are plenty of rpgs that dont use a silly menu for attacking things.
This is where my opion lies.
D&D online was one potential example of an intermediate between the two, I'm sure more implementations will present themselves in the coming years.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin