Originally posted by Cyborg99 I"m tired of ppl saying I should give indi/small developers a chance. Why should I? I'm the kind of guy who never cheers for the underdog and I always shop at the big stores (walmart,etc). Some ppl say bigger companies don't care about customers but companies like AV prove that small/indie devs don't care either. So I say down with the small budget mmo's and more of the bigger budget mmo's because we all know the more money put into a mmo the better it will be (no I'm not joking). Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post. It's ok to say bad things about the big bad companies but your not aloud to say bad things to the small weak companies : /
Pretty good troll all around.
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
Thing that must be funny for you is that every giant company started out as a small one.
It doesn't matter who the developer is, if you don't try a game because of that, you are a true ignorant who will probably miss good things because you didn't even try it.
Thing that must be funny for you is that every giant company started out as a small one. It doesn't matter who the developer is, if you don't try a game because of that, you are a true ignorant who will probably miss good things because you didn't even try it.
I'm sorry the correct answer to this thread was: The devs/companies does not matter, the only thing that matters is if you have fun playing the game.
Well everyone thank you for playing and remember to neuter your pets.
Originally posted by Cyborg99 I'm sorry the correct answer to this thread was: The devs/companies does not matter, the only thing that matters is if you have fun playing the game. Well everyone thank you for playing and remember to neuter your pets.
Um...isn't this the part where he said that this thread was BS and for his amusement only?
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy. ______________________________ "This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
the elite of the devs ae probabbly working on the bid budgets games, but withouth the freedom to innovate the indie devs could be people withouth experience, maybe even skill, and money, but can innovate and we need innovation. if you down a game because lack of graphics or animation you are doing a disservice to gaming and specially to mmorpg so.... down BAD games, not games that have low production values. If you know the diference... i guest is a dificult one
we need more crazy and original games, and these wll come in ugly box's
Nah, innovation for the sake of being new is over-rated. I much preferred a solidly executed, polished MMORPG full of content than an empty small world with some "new" features.
You put some reasonably smart designer in a room for 3 hrs and you will have enough innovation to implement for the next 10 year. It is really execution and QA that counts.
Thing that must be funny for you is that every giant company started out as a small one. It doesn't matter who the developer is, if you don't try a game because of that, you are a true ignorant who will probably miss good things because you didn't even try it.
I'm sorry the correct answer to this thread was: The devs/companies does not matter, the only thing that matters is if you have fun playing the game. Well everyone thank you for playing and remember to neuter your pets.
I'd also point out that many social conservatives/liberals support small companies because of the quality of their products, not because they're small. So, your entire assertion is based on the weakest, trollridden thought process ever to come out of the species H. Sapiens. Also, the devs and the companies always matter, if you ever taken at least one class on economics (even Keynesian economics reflects this view), which points out that the entrepreneur is the fulcrum from which the market gets its mojo.
Wanna know where the windshield wiper came from? An entrepreneur. The integrated circuit (A fellow from Liberal, Kansas...heh)? An entrepreneur. Amazon? An entrepreneur. And so on. Devs aren't any different in that regard, even if they are hired by a big production company. They have to integrate both subjective (personal) and objective (impersonal) facts in such a way that resolves into a given product or service. As such, the denial of the importance of the keen insights, and even complete failures of developers is in itself indefensible in any context.
Sorry for doling out the whole Austrian/Chicagoite spiel of entrepreneurship, but it's something that I find is sometimes necessary to illustrate a fallacious thought process. *salts the Earth* I'm done.
I"m tired of ppl saying I should give indi/small developers a chance. Why should I? I'm the kind of guy who never cheers for the underdog and I always shop at the big stores (walmart,etc). Some ppl say bigger companies don't care about customers but companies like AV prove that small/indie devs don't care either. So I say down with the small budget mmo's and more of the bigger budget mmo's because we all know the more money put into a mmo the better it will be (no I'm not joking). Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post. It's ok to say bad things about the big bad companies but your not aloud to say bad things to the small weak companies : /
I agree to some extent. I do not support small, indie companies just because they are "small, indie". In the end it depends on the quality of the product. If a small, indie company is able to create a great game at a competitvie price then I'll buy. However, don't count on that happening in the MMO scene. MMOs by their very nature require gigantic budgets and infrastructure at this point in time. It's like a small, indie film company trying to make some big summer blockbuster special effects extravaganza.
At the end of the day you dont have to care if its an indie developer or not, you have to look at the quality of the product, while there are indie developers that produce alot of crap, there are also those few ones that produce quality products and thats all you need to be looking at, if AV created a shit product then dont support them, i wouldnt put AV in the same league as lets say "Introversion" or "Popcap Games" these guys even if not at all that interesting sometimes brough some new creativity into a a market that is already being uniformized, where every FPS wants to be Halo and every MMO wants to be WoW.
So no I dont think screw indie and small developers is the way to go, we should say screw them if the quality of their products are shit.
I never thought I'd see Keynasian economics mentioned on here! Well yes, its a troll all right. Personally I don't think its relevent if a MMo is created by a small indie company or a large software house. Both have created some decent games and a lot of stinkers. One thing that should concern us all is that MMOs don't seem to be evolving at all in terms of gameplay. Is there a technical reason for this?
I never thought I'd see Keynasian economics mentioned on here! Well yes, its a troll all right. Personally I don't think its relevent if a MMo is created by a small indie company or a large software house. Both have created some decent games and a lot of stinkers. One thing that should concern us all is that MMOs don't seem to be evolving at all in terms of gameplay. Is there a technical reason for this?
Truth is like i mentioned above content is not controlled by devs is controlled by ppl in suites with the money and they dont care about getting anything new on the market to make something that is an evolution of what we got, they only really care about the turnover of their investment and since investments are all about assessements made on the current market the model that will come up as the winning/money making way to go is the WoW model.
Then on the other hand we have small companies trying way too hard to compete with the big boys and hyping the hell out of their products rather than trying to gather support of the community by showing what they got they try and trick the community into supporting them with empty promises.
I think the solution lies somewhere in between these two ends of the spectrum, until a company does this we are either having one or the other.
The days of the Indie companies success stories are dwindling. MMO's take so many resources to make and that is something just not affordable by them. It is not out of the realm of possibility that there could be a success story out of one of them, but the odds are very much against it.
All I can say is: Wurm online. Please go a head and try the game. And then come back to this post and tell me what you saw and how much it did hurt to do a simple task to have your toon to survive his hunger.
Its about the games, not who makes them. If an indie can make a MMO to the same standards as Blizzard or another AAA house, I'll buy it. But indies don't have the team or resources to create what I consider a fun MMO experience. Big production values, great art, well tested and content filled is what I look for. Indies can't deliver on the big production values and content and they definetly NEVER test their games properly. They grow slowly allowing paying customers to work out most of the kinks. Thats not my thing anymore. I can't tolerate lots of bugs and EVERY indie game is loaded with them. Its not their fault really. They don't have the resources. But I don't have to like their games either.
Every developer has ideas. But IDEAS don't make fun games. Implementation makes them fun. Indies never implement their ideas well. Maybe eventually they do, but I won't wait around for eventually, sorry. Giving it time or being patient is not what I look for in my entertainment. My entertainment has to be entertaining instantly....otherwise I'm not being entertained. I'm waiting to be entertained, HOPING the game will be fun. Why should I pay for that? I don't.
Personally, I don't pay much attention to who is developing the game. If I like it, I will play it. Otherwise, I'll move on. It seems to me that the size of the developer doesn't have a whole lot to do with the quality of the game. Everyone is capable of delivering a crap product and I have seen gems come from companies of all sizes. Who the hell cares?
I can't say I don't pay attention to developers, because I do. Who is developing TOR, what game did Garriot last work on, what will Blizzard do next, who developed EVE, is SOE going to rape another game, etc.
However, in the end it doesn't matter. I'm playing a game, or not, because it's fun, and that's going to be true for 99% of people that pay a subscription fee.
Indie devs can make good games and crap, and big commercial devs can make good games, and crap. I'll play the good games, and try to avoid the crap, no matter who made what.
Don't let Aventurine turn you off from small companies developing games......Not all of them are run so poorly and I'm sure some of the bigger companies probably started off small and became bigger over time.......Also the smaller companioes are probably going to be the ones to take more risks and try different things to appeal to gamers.......
I"m tired of ppl saying I should give indi/small developers a chance. Why should I? I'm the kind of guy who never cheers for the underdog and I always shop at the big stores (walmart,etc). Some ppl say bigger companies don't care about customers but companies like AV prove that small/indie devs don't care either. So I say down with the small budget mmo's and more of the bigger budget mmo's because we all know the more money put into a mmo the better it will be (no I'm not joking). Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post. It's ok to say bad things about the big bad companies but your not aloud to say bad things to the small weak companies : /
Is it liberal to say that the majority of job creation comes from the growth of successful, small companies? This is why the recent tax hike on small businesses is idiotic.
Anyways, you are free to say bad things about any company you want. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a fascist.
I"m tired of ppl saying I should give indi/small developers a chance. Why should I? I'm the kind of guy who never cheers for the underdog and I always shop at the big stores (walmart,etc). Some ppl say bigger companies don't care about customers but companies like AV prove that small/indie devs don't care either. So I say down with the small budget mmo's and more of the bigger budget mmo's because we all know the more money put into a mmo the better it will be (no I'm not joking). Many ppl will disagree with this but their just liberals so ignore their post. It's ok to say bad things about the big bad companies but your not aloud to say bad things to the small weak companies : /
I am not a liberal on so many levels its not even funny. You don't cheer for the underdog and yet you shop at wal-mart. Smart companies actualy give a shit about their customers because they realize the value of someone walking into their store or in MMORPG case, their world. A small company cannot address every tiny bickering issue that their customers have when i bet there are so many because they are a SMALL company.
Honestly, if you bought this game you were either waiting for it for a very long time, or just heard about it recently and thought it was awesome. If you were wrong on either level then it's your fault for not knowing that this game was incomplete, released as a payed beta for you to test. If you like the game on every level then what im saying doesn't even matter.
There is a lot of big companies out there with a lot of shitty games.
Meh, why look at the company instead of the actual product? Most successful devs started out small before they got big.
How often does that still happen, if ever?
The gap between well funded companies and not well funded companies is bigger than ever before, and it shows.
To create a good mmorpg, you need to be well funded, it's that simple. If you're not well funded, you're going to end up like Mourning, Dark & Light, Irth Online and Darkfall Online.
Comments
I'm sorry the correct answer to this thread was: The devs/companies does not matter, the only thing that matters is if you have fun playing the game.
Well everyone thank you for playing and remember to neuter your pets.
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
Pretty good troll all around.
"It is in your nature to do one thing correctly; Before me, you rightfully tremble. But, fear is not what you owe me. You owe me awe." ~Francis Dolarhyde
Thing that must be funny for you is that every giant company started out as a small one.
It doesn't matter who the developer is, if you don't try a game because of that, you are a true ignorant who will probably miss good things because you didn't even try it.
I'm sorry the correct answer to this thread was: The devs/companies does not matter, the only thing that matters is if you have fun playing the game.
Well everyone thank you for playing and remember to neuter your pets.
Trolls = Hardcore
Fanbois = Carebears
The only posts I read in threads are my own.
Um...isn't this the part where he said that this thread was BS and for his amusement only?
There is NO miracle patch.
95% of what you see in beta won't change by launch.
Hope is not a stategy.
______________________________
"This kind of topic is like one of those little cartoon boxes held up by a stick on a string, with a piece of meat under it. In other words, bait."
Nah, innovation for the sake of being new is over-rated. I much preferred a solidly executed, polished MMORPG full of content than an empty small world with some "new" features.
You put some reasonably smart designer in a room for 3 hrs and you will have enough innovation to implement for the next 10 year. It is really execution and QA that counts.
Wanna know where the windshield wiper came from? An entrepreneur. The integrated circuit (A fellow from Liberal, Kansas...heh)? An entrepreneur. Amazon? An entrepreneur. And so on. Devs aren't any different in that regard, even if they are hired by a big production company. They have to integrate both subjective (personal) and objective (impersonal) facts in such a way that resolves into a given product or service. As such, the denial of the importance of the keen insights, and even complete failures of developers is in itself indefensible in any context.
Sorry for doling out the whole Austrian/Chicagoite spiel of entrepreneurship, but it's something that I find is sometimes necessary to illustrate a fallacious thought process. *salts the Earth* I'm done.
I agree to some extent. I do not support small, indie companies just because they are "small, indie". In the end it depends on the quality of the product. If a small, indie company is able to create a great game at a competitvie price then I'll buy. However, don't count on that happening in the MMO scene. MMOs by their very nature require gigantic budgets and infrastructure at this point in time. It's like a small, indie film company trying to make some big summer blockbuster special effects extravaganza.
XD
Man, that is bordering on sig worthy material. Funny stuff...
Thanks feel free to use it and spread the word that liberals are the anti-Christ.
Wait, what's this? A conservative with little to no knowledge of grammar and spelling, or the ability to even grasp the most rudimentary arguments?
Surely not?
At the end of the day you dont have to care if its an indie developer or not, you have to look at the quality of the product, while there are indie developers that produce alot of crap, there are also those few ones that produce quality products and thats all you need to be looking at, if AV created a shit product then dont support them, i wouldnt put AV in the same league as lets say "Introversion" or "Popcap Games" these guys even if not at all that interesting sometimes brough some new creativity into a a market that is already being uniformized, where every FPS wants to be Halo and every MMO wants to be WoW.
So no I dont think screw indie and small developers is the way to go, we should say screw them if the quality of their products are shit.
Cyborg, I thought the OP was pretty transparent but I was wrong. You reeled in some gems with this one. Very nice work!
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I never thought I'd see Keynasian economics mentioned on here! Well yes, its a troll all right. Personally I don't think its relevent if a MMo is created by a small indie company or a large software house. Both have created some decent games and a lot of stinkers. One thing that should concern us all is that MMOs don't seem to be evolving at all in terms of gameplay. Is there a technical reason for this?
Truth is like i mentioned above content is not controlled by devs is controlled by ppl in suites with the money and they dont care about getting anything new on the market to make something that is an evolution of what we got, they only really care about the turnover of their investment and since investments are all about assessements made on the current market the model that will come up as the winning/money making way to go is the WoW model.
Then on the other hand we have small companies trying way too hard to compete with the big boys and hyping the hell out of their products rather than trying to gather support of the community by showing what they got they try and trick the community into supporting them with empty promises.
I think the solution lies somewhere in between these two ends of the spectrum, until a company does this we are either having one or the other.
if the game is good, I don't really give a damn who created it
The days of the Indie companies success stories are dwindling. MMO's take so many resources to make and that is something just not affordable by them. It is not out of the realm of possibility that there could be a success story out of one of them, but the odds are very much against it.
All I can say is: Wurm online. Please go a head and try the game. And then come back to this post and tell me what you saw and how much it did hurt to do a simple task to have your toon to survive his hunger.
I7@4ghz, 5970@ 1 ghz/5ghz, water cooled||Former setups Byggblogg||Byggblogg 2|| Msi Wind u100
Its about the games, not who makes them. If an indie can make a MMO to the same standards as Blizzard or another AAA house, I'll buy it. But indies don't have the team or resources to create what I consider a fun MMO experience. Big production values, great art, well tested and content filled is what I look for. Indies can't deliver on the big production values and content and they definetly NEVER test their games properly. They grow slowly allowing paying customers to work out most of the kinks. Thats not my thing anymore. I can't tolerate lots of bugs and EVERY indie game is loaded with them. Its not their fault really. They don't have the resources. But I don't have to like their games either.
Every developer has ideas. But IDEAS don't make fun games. Implementation makes them fun. Indies never implement their ideas well. Maybe eventually they do, but I won't wait around for eventually, sorry. Giving it time or being patient is not what I look for in my entertainment. My entertainment has to be entertaining instantly....otherwise I'm not being entertained. I'm waiting to be entertained, HOPING the game will be fun. Why should I pay for that? I don't.
I can't say I don't pay attention to developers, because I do. Who is developing TOR, what game did Garriot last work on, what will Blizzard do next, who developed EVE, is SOE going to rape another game, etc.
However, in the end it doesn't matter. I'm playing a game, or not, because it's fun, and that's going to be true for 99% of people that pay a subscription fee.
Indie devs can make good games and crap, and big commercial devs can make good games, and crap. I'll play the good games, and try to avoid the crap, no matter who made what.
Don't let Aventurine turn you off from small companies developing games......Not all of them are run so poorly and I'm sure some of the bigger companies probably started off small and became bigger over time.......Also the smaller companioes are probably going to be the ones to take more risks and try different things to appeal to gamers.......
Is it liberal to say that the majority of job creation comes from the growth of successful, small companies? This is why the recent tax hike on small businesses is idiotic.
Anyways, you are free to say bad things about any company you want. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a fascist.
I am not a liberal on so many levels its not even funny. You don't cheer for the underdog and yet you shop at wal-mart. Smart companies actualy give a shit about their customers because they realize the value of someone walking into their store or in MMORPG case, their world. A small company cannot address every tiny bickering issue that their customers have when i bet there are so many because they are a SMALL company.
Honestly, if you bought this game you were either waiting for it for a very long time, or just heard about it recently and thought it was awesome. If you were wrong on either level then it's your fault for not knowing that this game was incomplete, released as a payed beta for you to test. If you like the game on every level then what im saying doesn't even matter.
There is a lot of big companies out there with a lot of shitty games.
So basically you don't know what you're talking about.
So basically you don't know what you're talking about.
Or, basically, you just took the bait.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Meh, why look at the company instead of the actual product? Most successful devs started out small before they got big.
How often does that still happen, if ever?
The gap between well funded companies and not well funded companies is bigger than ever before, and it shows.
To create a good mmorpg, you need to be well funded, it's that simple. If you're not well funded, you're going to end up like Mourning, Dark & Light, Irth Online and Darkfall Online.