The improper use of "a gag order" to justify Turbine's actions

signetring · May 2009

A gag order's primary purpose is to prevent the media from improperly influencing a jury by editorializing facts in a criminal or civil case. A judge however, CAN issue a gag order to prevent parties to a lawsuit from commenting on it. However, even in the case of national security matters, gag rules are not issued because as a RULE OF LAW - all court matters are deemed public interest. Matters that are resolved through arbitration or mediation ARE closed discussions.

This notion of Turbine not being able to comment about a game module's (horrible) delay due to a "gag order" by a court of law is utter garbage. This is yet another way of Turbine fans to justify what the real issue is:

Turbine does not find communicating with its playerbase to be a priority. This is the most likely cause of the silence.

If gag orders were denied in murder trials, multi-billion dollar anti-trust and intellectual property cases, do not think for a second that some gag order issued by a court of law is what's causing Turbine's silence.

At any rate, only the most severe and most intense summons in the United States (summons by the FBI on matters of national security) come with a gag order, or in the case of constitutionality issues during criminal or civil proceedings. Therefore the chances of a gag order preventing communications from Turbine's delay in a module is almost all but impossible.

Rokurgepta · May 2009

Originally posted by signetring

A gag order's primary purpose is to prevent the media from improperly influencing a jury by editorializing facts in a criminal or civil case. A judge however, CAN issue a gag order to prevent parties to a lawsuit from commenting on it. However, even in the case of national security matters, gag rules are not issued because as a RULE OF LAW - all court matters are deemed public interest. Matters that are resolved through arbitration or mediation ARE closed discussions.
This notion of Turbine not being able to comment about a game module's (horrible) delay due to a "gag order" by a court of law is utter garbage. This is yet another way of Turbine fans to justify what the real issue is:
Turbine does not find communicating with its playerbase to be a priority. This is the most likely cause of the silence.
If gag orders were denied in murder trials, multi-billion dollar anti-trust and intellectual property cases, do not think for a second that some gag order issued by a court of law is what's causing Turbine's silence.
At any rate, only the most severe and most intense summons in the United States (summons by the FBI on matters of national security) come with a gag order, or in the case of constitutionality issues during criminal or civil proceedings. Therefore the chances of a gag order preventing communications from Turbine's delay in a module is almost all but impossible.

You are thinking the gag order is being issued by a judge? I think most likely it is an internal one and not a judicial. The company I work for has an internal gag order, we are not to discuss company business with outsiders or the media. We can be fired for breaking that policy. So Turbine may be under a gag order simply to avoid an issue and not being court ordered to do so.

signetring · May 2009

That would be a confidentiality policy (or agreement) you are referring to, or in the case of two parties then you would have what is called a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). A gag order is a judicial term not a contractual or in your example, an employment term.

The Turbine fans insist the silence is caused by judicial order, under the threat of civil liability or criminal penalty which is obviously not the case. Turbine's refusal to indicate otherwise perpetuates the false pretense as well.

The only thing that is left which no one has mentioned is the possibility of internal issues. One such decision could be the shut down of DDO entirely. Another could be internal employees being shifted around, leaving no one at the helm to make decisions. Another could be replacement employees who no longer feel DDO is worth working on any longer. This could very well be the case. With all the motivational and otherwise desperate attempts to keep people satisfied, these could be the final days of DDO.

Rokurgepta · May 2009

Originally posted by signetring

That would be a confidentiality policy (or agreement) you are referring to, or in the case of two parties then you would have what is called a non-disclosure agreement (NDA). A gag order is a judicial term not a contractual or in your example, an employment term.
The Turbine fans insist the silence is caused by judicial order, under the threat of civil liability or criminal penalty which is obviously not the case. Turbine's refusal to indicate otherwise perpetuates the false pretense as well.
The only thing that is left which no one has mentioned is the possibility of internal issues. One such decision could be the shut down of DDO entirely. Another could be internal employees being shifted around, leaving no one at the helm to make decisions. Another could be replacement employees who no longer feel DDO is worth working on any longer. This could very well be the case. With all the motivational and otherwise desperate attempts to keep people satisfied, these could be the final days of DDO.

DO you read the same official DDO forums that I read? The ones I read make very few references to it having civil or criminal penalty. Sig I agree with a lot of what you say, but you are taking your Turbine hate to a level that it does not need to go to.

You are absolutely wrong about a gag order being a judicial term only, it is clearly used by both employers and for legal reasons. You can look it up yourself if you want to read it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag_order

Sarr · May 2009

Originally posted by signetring

A gag order's primary purpose is to prevent the media from improperly influencing a jury by editorializing facts in a criminal or civil case. A judge however, CAN issue a gag order to prevent parties to a lawsuit from commenting on it. However, even in the case of national security matters, gag rules are not issued because as a RULE OF LAW - all court matters are deemed public interest. Matters that are resolved through arbitration or mediation ARE closed discussions.
This notion of Turbine not being able to comment about a game module's (horrible) delay due to a "gag order" by a court of law is utter garbage. This is yet another way of Turbine fans to justify what the real issue is:
Turbine does not find communicating with its playerbase to be a priority. This is the most likely cause of the silence.
If gag orders were denied in murder trials, multi-billion dollar anti-trust and intellectual property cases, do not think for a second that some gag order issued by a court of law is what's causing Turbine's silence.
At any rate, only the most severe and most intense summons in the United States (summons by the FBI on matters of national security) come with a gag order, or in the case of constitutionality issues during criminal or civil proceedings. Therefore the chances of a gag order preventing communications from Turbine's delay in a module is almost all but impossible.

Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. If the process involves what is considered a "trade secret", "company secret" or whatever it translates to from Polish, it's secret - not public.

Not only that, company may want to keep all of the process secret. It's thier right, and if jury accepts, it comes to reality.

Heck, even making public what is classified as a "business secret" is considered a crime and is punished. Those people like Bill Roper (ex-Blizzard) simply can't say everything about their former companies, let alone current.

So it's all believable, not garbage, I'm afraid.

Dr.Rock · May 2009

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by signetring

A gag order's primary purpose is to prevent the media from improperly influencing a jury by editorializing facts in a criminal or civil case. A judge however, CAN issue a gag order to prevent parties to a lawsuit from commenting on it. However, even in the case of national security matters, gag rules are not issued because as a RULE OF LAW - all court matters are deemed public interest. Matters that are resolved through arbitration or mediation ARE closed discussions.
This notion of Turbine not being able to comment about a game module's (horrible) delay due to a "gag order" by a court of law is utter garbage. This is yet another way of Turbine fans to justify what the real issue is:
Turbine does not find communicating with its playerbase to be a priority. This is the most likely cause of the silence.
If gag orders were denied in murder trials, multi-billion dollar anti-trust and intellectual property cases, do not think for a second that some gag order issued by a court of law is what's causing Turbine's silence.
At any rate, only the most severe and most intense summons in the United States (summons by the FBI on matters of national security) come with a gag order, or in the case of constitutionality issues during criminal or civil proceedings. Therefore the chances of a gag order preventing communications from Turbine's delay in a module is almost all but impossible.

Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about. If the process involves what is considered a "trade secret", "company secret" or whatever it translates to from Polish, it's secret - not public.

Not only that, company may want to keep all of the process secret. It's thier right, and if jury accepts, it comes to reality.

Heck, even making public what is classified as a "business secret" is considered a crime and is punished. Those people like Bill Roper (ex-Blizzard) simply can't say everything about their former companies, let alone current.

So it's all believable, not garbage, I'm afraid.

He went to court once so he must be right.

signetring · May 2009

You can bait all you want but there's no way you can successfully argue on point. In order to continue having an intelligent discussion you would have to take the original post and come up with your own arguments, if you are able.

The bottom line is that you feel that the only logical conclusion as to the silence is that there are judicial orders for Turbine not to talk about Mod 9. This is clearly not the case. The only policy that is binding Turbine is their own internal one, not a result of 'legal action' against Turbine or its affiliates. The fault (again) lies with Turbine and it's policies. There is no legal action, because the very nature of legal action is that it is public record. Whether or not all the testimony is public is subject to judicial review, however there would be a court docket somewhere with Turbine's name on it somewhere, if they were the subject of a "gag order".

Such a docket does not exist, therefore no "gag order" does either. Whether the content of the legal action is private or not would still produce some court docket listing its parties.

What you have here is a company simply refusing to tell its playerbase anything. Whether that is OK or not is subject to personal preference.

Sarr · May 2009

Originally posted by signetring

You can bait all you want but there's no way you can successfully argue on point. In order to continue having an intelligent discussion you would have to take the original post and come up with your own arguments, if you are able.
The bottom line is that you feel that the only logical conclusion as to the silence is that there are judicial orders for Turbine not to talk about Mod 9. This is clearly not the case. The only policy that is binding Turbine is their own internal one, not a result of 'legal action' against Turbine or its affiliates. The fault (again) lies with Turbine and it's policies. There is no legal action, because the very nature of legal action is that it is public record. Whether or not all the testimony is public is subject to judicial review, however there would be a court docket somewhere with Turbine's name on it somewhere, if they were the subject of a "gag order".
Such a docket does not exist, therefore no "gag order" does either. Whether the content of the legal action is private or not would still produce some court docket listing its parties.
What you have here is a company simply refusing to tell its playerbase anything. Whether that is OK or not is subject to personal preference.

I'm afraid you just didn't read my post with understanding. I wrote that you're wrong in the OP, so all your subsequent arguments are most likely wrong and pretty made up from speculations.

Secrecy is common when it's not a person being sued, but a company. And especially when more than one company is involved. BUT even with a single person being sued, jury may make the process classified for the sake of that person's safety.

This safety expands on company's business - it must be safe, so better to keep "company secrets" hidden. This is a protection given them by law.

Rokurgepta · May 2009

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by signetring

You can bait all you want but there's no way you can successfully argue on point. In order to continue having an intelligent discussion you would have to take the original post and come up with your own arguments, if you are able.
The bottom line is that you feel that the only logical conclusion as to the silence is that there are judicial orders for Turbine not to talk about Mod 9. This is clearly not the case. The only policy that is binding Turbine is their own internal one, not a result of 'legal action' against Turbine or its affiliates. The fault (again) lies with Turbine and it's policies. There is no legal action, because the very nature of legal action is that it is public record. Whether or not all the testimony is public is subject to judicial review, however there would be a court docket somewhere with Turbine's name on it somewhere, if they were the subject of a "gag order".
Such a docket does not exist, therefore no "gag order" does either. Whether the content of the legal action is private or not would still produce some court docket listing its parties.
What you have here is a company simply refusing to tell its playerbase anything. Whether that is OK or not is subject to personal preference.

I'm afraid you just didn't read my post with understanding. I wrote that you're wrong in the OP, so all your subsequent arguments are most likely wrong and pretty made up from speculations.

Secrecy is common when it's not a person being sued, but a company. And especially when more than one company is involved. BUT even with a single person being sued, jury may make the process classified for the sake of that person's safety.

This safety expands on company's business - it must be safe, so better to keep "company secrets" hidden. This is a protection given them by law.

From this posts I have to guess you are making things up just like Sig.

Dr.Rock · June 2009

Originally posted by Rokurgepta
From this posts I have to guess you are making things up just like Sig.

I think people forget to read the implicit 'In my opinion' that should start most posts. This of course assumes that the poster is not trying to post something that is clearly an opinion as if it were fact.

It really comes down to motives, Sarr sees things positively because he believes things are going in the right direction, you have a sense of frustration because you either sense they are not or at a dangerous pace. But deep down you both want the best outcome. Others would appear to have ulterior motives, possibly grudge based, but clearly a lot less healthy.

It is of course your right to align your frustration with baser motives if you so want.

That was all just my opinion, for the avoidance of doubt.

Rokurgepta · June 2009

Originally posted by Dr.Rock

Originally posted by Rokurgepta
From this posts I have to guess you are making things up just like Sig.

I think people forget to read the implicit 'In my opinion' that should start most posts. This of course assumes that the poster is not trying to post something that is clearly an opinion as if it were fact.

It really comes down to motives, Sarr sees things positively because he believes things are going in the right direction, you have a sense of frustration because you either sense they are not or at a dangerous pace. But deep down you both want the best outcome. Others would appear to have ulterior motives, possibly grudge based, but clearly a lot less healthy.

It is of course your right to align your frustration with baser motives if you so want.

That was all just my opinion, for the avoidance of doubt.

Maybe I should give Sarr more leeway being English is his second language and he tries hard to use the right words.

Dr.Rock · June 2009

Originally posted by Rokurgepta

Originally posted by Dr.Rock

Originally posted by Rokurgepta
From this posts I have to guess you are making things up just like Sig.

I think people forget to read the implicit 'In my opinion' that should start most posts. This of course assumes that the poster is not trying to post something that is clearly an opinion as if it were fact.

It really comes down to motives, Sarr sees things positively because he believes things are going in the right direction, you have a sense of frustration because you either sense they are not or at a dangerous pace. But deep down you both want the best outcome. Others would appear to have ulterior motives, possibly grudge based, but clearly a lot less healthy.

It is of course your right to align your frustration with baser motives if you so want.

That was all just my opinion, for the avoidance of doubt.

Maybe I should give Sarr more leeway being English is his second language and he tries hard to use the right words.

I always respect anyone with multilingual skills.

Reminds me of a girl in an office I use to work who stated she found the German office annoying when they rang because she couldn't understand their English. I suggested that she may want to learn German if she felt that would be easier.

CSFurious · June 2009

anyone who thinks that a lawsuit is delaying mod 9 needs to get a clue

mod 9 is delayed because there is not enough money being spent on development

companies do not file lawsuits over issues that involve no money, i.e., DDO does not make any

Sarr · June 2009

Originally posted by CSFurious

anyone who thinks that a lawsuit is delaying mod 9 needs to get a clue
mod 9 is delayed because there is not enough money being spent on development
companies do not file lawsuits over issues that involve no money, i.e., DDO does not make any

I think You need a clue. Read this thread:

community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php

Other than that, developers don't just skip scheduled patches. Turbine is officialy working on Mod 10 now. Not Mod 9.

Rokurgepta · June 2009

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by CSFurious

anyone who thinks that a lawsuit is delaying mod 9 needs to get a clue
mod 9 is delayed because there is not enough money being spent on development
companies do not file lawsuits over issues that involve no money, i.e., DDO does not make any

I think You need a clue. Read this thread:

community.codemasters.com/forum/showthread.php

Other than that, developers don't just skip scheduled patches. Turbine is officialy working on Mod 10 now. Not Mod 9.

The clue needed might be your own. Why would the European rights have an effect on all of Turbine. You tend to believe everything you see on the internet. You do know its not all true right? Turbine has been getting later and later with its patches. They have also done less patches each year. The precedent for them to be late again was set long ago.

CSFurious · June 2009

you made me laugh out loud

why would Turbine continue to develop content that it cannot release?

oh, that's right, Turbine needs to win the secret lawsuit over the rights to a game that is an epic failure

cerebrix · June 2009

ive never seen anyone play clue on a forum before, this is kinda fascinating.

AgtSmith · June 2009

Originally posted by Rokurgepta
The company I work for has an internal gag order, we are not to discuss company business with outsiders or the media. We can be fired for breaking that policy. So Turbine may be under a gag order simply to avoid an issue and not being court ordered to do so.

Uhm, hate to say but you just broke that gag order so, you're fired!

As for MOD 9, super secret, vast and mysterious, and all the other BS surrounding this game it comes down to one thing, when you have nothing good to say you don't say anything at all.

Rokurgepta · June 2009

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Originally posted by Rokurgepta
The company I work for has an internal gag order, we are not to discuss company business with outsiders or the media. We can be fired for breaking that policy. So Turbine may be under a gag order simply to avoid an issue and not being court ordered to do so.

Uhm, hate to say but you just broke that gag order so, you're fired!

As for MOD 9, super secret, vast and mysterious, and all the other BS surrounding this game it comes down to one thing, when you have nothing good to say you don't say anything at all.

I am prrtty sure admitting we have a gag order does not technically break said gag order. If I told you what we do here, specifically the companies I deal with or products we are involved in then I could be in trouble.

AgtSmith · June 2009

A) If the gag order is 'not to discuss company business' then certainly the companies internal policies such as this gag order would be included. How a company does things is as much a part of your 'business' as what you do and who you do it with. It is kind of a first rule of fight club is no talking about fight club thing.

When it comes to things that can get you fired, or even with life in general, being told you are not allowed to talk about something usually includes discussing the ban as much as the subject of the ban. Consider the 'ole 'I have a secret but I am not gonna tell you' - how many times did that work out? Best to keep the secret and the fact that you have a secret to yourself, especially when said secret is someone else's and that some else can fire you.

C) Being 'technically' right in matters of getting fired or staying employed is a tenuous position at best. Being 'technically' right in matters involving honoring a promise or obligation typically means you failed to do so.

D) Was just a joke anyways.

Rokurgepta · June 2009

Originally posted by AgtSmith

A) If the gag order is 'not to discuss company business' then certainly the companies internal policies such as this gag order would be included. How a company does things is as much a part of your 'business' as what you do and who you do it with. It is kind of a first rule of fight club is no talking about fight club thing.

When it comes to things that can get you fired, or even with life in general, being told you are not allowed to talk about something usually includes discussing the ban as much as the subject of the ban. Consider the 'ole 'I have a secret but I am not gonna tell you' - how many times did that work out? Best to keep the secret and the fact that you have a secret to yourself, especially when said secret is someone else's and that some else can fire you.

C) Being 'technically' right in matters of getting fired or staying employed is a tenuous position at best. Being 'technically' right in matters involving honoring a promise or obligation typically means you failed to do so.

D) Was just a joke anyways.

I knew you were joking and I was joking right back along with you. Now lets get back to vaporware and broken promises.

AgtSmith · June 2009

Uh oh, I said MOD 9 was vaporware a couple months ago and my ass is still smoldering from the flames. You better watch out now (even though MOD 9 is clearly waporware as is the while whisper campaign about somethign great just around the corner BS that has been stringing folks along in that game for quite some time).

Sarr · June 2009

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Uh oh, I said MOD 9 was vaporware a couple months ago and my ass is still smoldering from the flames. You better watch out now (even though MOD 9 is clearly waporware as is the while whisper campaign about somethign great just around the corner BS that has been stringing folks along in that game for quite some time).

I have the feeling that it is your ass what will be vaporware here next week, AgtSmith . It's most likely that DDO will have some "big announcement" next week. Turbine was at E3, contary to what many thought, talking press about... DDO.

moorewr · June 2009

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Uh oh, I said MOD 9 was vaporware a couple months ago and my ass is still smoldering from the flames. You better watch out now (even though MOD 9 is clearly waporware as is the while whisper campaign about somethign great just around the corner BS that has been stringing folks along in that game for quite some time).

Mod 9 was partially released to the Preview Server in April. The new quests were locked for the preview, but they were briefly unlocked (possibly by mistake?) and other players entered the new quests. So, complete, incomplete, god knows what it is, it in't just vapor.

Rokurgepta · June 2009

Originally posted by Sarr

Originally posted by AgtSmith

Uh oh, I said MOD 9 was vaporware a couple months ago and my ass is still smoldering from the flames. You better watch out now (even though MOD 9 is clearly waporware as is the while whisper campaign about somethign great just around the corner BS that has been stringing folks along in that game for quite some time).

I have the feeling that it is your ass what will be vaporware here next week, AgtSmith . It's most likely that DDO will have some "big announcement" next week. Turbine was at E3, contary to what many thought, talking press about... DDO.

Have a link to the press they talked to and what it was about? Or are you considering a couple of remarks on twitter press coverage?

AgtSmith · June 2009

DDO is dead and all but buried, I have no idea if Turbine is going console with it or what but I am sure if there is a vast and mysterious or some other such super secret it is likely more a way to spin the mess than it is anything of real improvement to DDO. But go on with the it is coming and all the denials, I am sure that there are big, big plans for a game 3+ years old with barely 20k or so subs - like that is the perfect platform to plan big things from, lol.

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The improper use of "a gag order" to justify Turbine's actions

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