Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
A post for the more experienced.
Basicgear
Member UncommonPosts: 43
We hear a lot of mmo bashing here. I always cringe when I hear the word clone, really what I hear is I found nothing unique because if it were a clone it would still appeal to whatever good game they were referring too. I wanted to post to reflect on games past and peoples indifference to mechanics in the current games.
My mmorpg history starts with EQ1. SOE did a lot of things right with this game. The times of Everquest were happy times and I think what was so appealing to me was the experience of exploration. There were no quests, I LOVED this. If you were new to EQ (when it was still populated) you were almost always greeted by the other players. The experience was a little harder because you didnt have an NPC pointing you in a strong direction, but this was part of my awesome world of 'exploration'.
I remember I still played EQ a little when I started reading forums about EQ2 and WoW. At the time all the EQ fans were determined for EQ2 to win the war and WoW to lose. I grabbed a copy of EQ2 as fast as I could. Soon, I found myself in a world filled with too much too fast. They had adopted a small quest system in EQ1 and I guess their thought was lets make a game based on that. I couldnt keep up with as many quests thrusted at me in EQ2, I mean you would have a quest to bring an item to NPC1 and when you got there he would continue that quest line but then give you two other. Every NPC was a quest node.
So I tried WoW, was pleasently suprised at the comfort of the world and the story that was given to you at the beginning, again I found a new world to explore. I think we were all happy and content with WoW for the first few years. Now, we all just want something new. WoW is still strong and kicking cause they didnt do alot of things wrong, if they did they fixed it fast.
I did play a lot of games in between the years and still try anything new, my game list goes on, but EQ1 and WoW were my 'hardcore' games.
So the mechanic I really have in question is the quest system. Everquest did great without a quest system, you never had 'books' or 'puncuation' above an NPCs head, you had groups of players saying lets go here, I heard of this place. (I remember the way i learned of the goblin cave in lava storm, someone asked me to come to lavastorm and I had never been, I ran over a cliff and thought I was about to fall into lava, which sucked! but landed on a ledge that was an entrance to a goblin cave.)
EQ2 overloaded the player with quest after quest, and I think this is what most of the 'new' mmos are doing. WoW was the more subtle of quest givers, while it is all quest driven until end game the quests were a few each city or town and it made sense.
No quest system or maybe just a tiny one seems to mean a sense of community among the players, and definently a greater sense of exploration and discovery. Players make their time enjoyable without feeling a 'acheivement' through questing. I remember gambling with players at the 3rd torch. I remember learning the camp spot in most of my favorite zones. Oh and I remember NEEDING a puller so that when we had one mob we could take but 2-5 meant a train to the zone.
I hope the next mmo to come our way has a feeling of adventure, mystery, and damnit some fun.
Comments
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
I don't think thats what he wanted. To contribute, no quests and group grinding is what i like.
"Freedom is just another name for nothing left to lose" - Janis Joplin
.jpg)
Hell no, I loved EQ but I don't miss that game in the least. It was fun for its time but that doesn't mean I want to go back.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
I really dislike WoW, but really questing in wrath (if you took your time ) was the best I've ever seen.
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=17779800832&sid=1&pageNo=1
The OP just doesn't get it!
There is nothing wrong with quests, but there is a problem with the way MMOG's have been implementing them. Right now they discourage exploring. When you explore and discover an interesting place on the map you avoid it because you know you'll have quests to do there sometime and you don't want to waste you time when you know you'll be back.
A better way to implement quests would be to allow players to get credit for objectives even without having the original quest. Lets say you find a cave while out wandering around. You go in and find a boss. You kill the boss because that is what heroes do. Later on you get the quest to kill that boss. It would be ridiculous that you would have to go back and kill the same boss. You already killed it! The quest system should recognize that you've done this already and reward you for it.
The idea is to let people play the game how they want without penalty. A simple change to the way quests work would allow people to enjoy the game world without fussing around with the unatural way quests currently work.
Quests provide three important functions:
Formalizing the player's goals is crucial in most genres of gaming. In Halo you're constantly informed of what you need to do next to advance the game. Even games like Grand Theft Auto have quests nowadays, with formalized icons clearly communicating where you're able to go to find new content.
Narrative gives the game backstory. Players vary wildly, from Don't Care to Very Important, in how much they value a game's story. Even with the majority of players falling lower on the spectrum, it's a trait of quests which has value.
As an "activity" I mean the act of right-clicking an NPC is different from staying out in the wilderness grinding all day. Quests provide a reason to come back to town and switch gears for a bit -- without costing you XP (in fact, they pay you XP!) This may sound simple, but it's extremely important for a game to offer the player a variety of activities or things will seem repetitive and boring much faster.
This post shouldn't be mistaken as my being 100% in favor of how current quest design works. If players feel quests deprive them of the sense of Exploration, obviously quests aren't being implemented out in the wilderness enough (because I assure you, quests would drive you to explore if you knew that 60% of the most valuable quests weren't found inside towns.)
Also I feel Bioware's on the right track with trying to do away with quest Text Boxes (which are immersion-breaking) by having most of that be spoken dialog (a vastly more immersive communication method.) It will also be interesting to see how they deal with the magnitude of player choices they seem to be offering players.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Warhammer's PQ system was similar to this. I wish they would copy it into more MMOs. The system just wasn't implemented as well as it could be.
Not only that but the Tome of Knowledge encouraged exploring every possible area you could, even ones that you really shouldn't be.
I also enjoy focused timed mission based quests too. Ones like EQ's LDoN dungeon quests. Add a little random generation to your instance and allow the quests to scale to the group's level and you have some reusable, but varying quest content in your MMO.
Personally i prefer no quests, or very few. But generally what i dislike are not the quests per-se, but the rewards that ruins the crafting and the crafters importance.
Give me any kind of quest with different rewards, xp, perks, abilities and I am not against them. As long as they are not mandatory but just a choice.
Nickname registered on www.mynickname.org
Not a bad idea, instead of quest auto-giving XP, you either choose a piece of gear OR xp, in this case most people would choose XP, thus the crafters importance again. Not too harsh of an extreme, nor a too moderate one.
Currently restarting World of Warcraft
It depends on the quest. If I'm just running around for the sake of running around, then its retarded. If there is some type of lore behind it, then I find it fun and immersive.
For instance, in EQ2 they revamped Everfrost. The quest are amazing. I loved that zone, and was sad to leave. It was one of only a few zones that I actually enjoyed questing. It all made sense, and had to do with the pioneers trying to reclaim Everfrost. Another great area to quest was Timorous Deep. It rocked hardcore. Why aren't more areas focused on lore instead of go collect this or go kill 10 of these?
I actually hated WoW quest. I found most of them very tedious. Some were fine, but most were horrible. I would much rather just grind it out while exploring.
I would have to say that questing is something that bothers me because it is almost impossible to make each quest unique. It is always going to be something along the lines of:
1. Talk to NPC
2. Fetch / Destroy other NPC
3. Get reward from NPC
Giving players a small choice of repeatable quests like this is good for those who enjoy this type of thing, but it depends on the player. For instance, a majority of Western focused MMOs focus on the questing system while Asian focused ones focus on grinding.
I don't think thats what he wanted. To contribute, no quests and group grinding is what i like.
Almost agree. I like occaisional quests. One or two every 5 or 10 levels.
The thing that made exploration great in EQ was the fact you could run into a mob that could drop a great item. The pegasus in Karana could drop you a levitation cloak which made a big impact on the gameplay. Stuff you could only discover through exploration. WoW never had that kind of exploration feel to it. First of all you recieve quests that tells you were instances are. Second the game areas are too small to really feel you are doing any kind of exploration compared to the zones in EQ. Thirdly running into a special mob and killing it in WoW never really gives any reward except for vendor trash. If you saw a special mob in EQ you were curious to figure out what the hell it drops. Exploration had its dangers too which gave it some extra exitement. If the area was too high of a level you were more determined to level up so you could explore it with a group. I never had that feel with WoW.
WoW guides you everywhere through quests. There is no need for exploration. If you choose to explore you will be penalized that you didn't pick up those quests before going to that area or instance.
EQ did a lot of things right as you mentioned yourself. Mobs had set loot tables which i liked. Groups were more encouraged. What i don't miss is camp checks and lists. If you wanted to do something or camp something you were SOL if somebody else was there. If it was worth camping it was garunteed somebody always would be there camping it. The competition over content was lame.
Progress has left a lot of things that made MMORPGS great behind in the dirt.
To tell ya the truth, I really dont know exactly how to describe it but we all know that EQ had it right how ever that system worked is what i think some of the new mmos should adopt. I always found it exciting to have to research quests with friends or on the internet. I think that is one of the reasons why people liked it and hell who knows maybe many players didn't realize that was half the fun until the system was gone in other mmo's
Thanks for the responses guys. Im happy to see people agree with me. Questing can be more of a grind than camping. Fibsdk, Im glad to see you remember the camps. I actually enjoyed having to check to see if they were occupied, made me feel like there were plenty more people fighting the same cause.
I think questing should include items only, no experience. This way fighting creatures would mean grouping would be needed and the items you receive from quests could equip you to better serve those groups. How can an NPC give me experience other than teaching me a fighting technique.
Anyways, a new game mechanic post, Death systems. www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/239017/A-post-for-the-more-experienced-2death-penalty.html
ya know I actually really like when a game has lots of quests. I really enjoy doing quests and getting stuff for completing them =D. lol I don't like when a game has lots of quest sand only 10 quest slots in you log book... (=_=). I also hate when an NPC is like "Hey there, I need you to get me a rock! A nice grey rock!" Then you look around and there are 20 rocks and nothing beside any of them. So you get frustrated and look it up on the web and the rock you are looking for is on the other side of the planet.
I play EQ2 and I really like it cuz it has so many quests. Even though you can hold like 75 or so quest in the book, I still run out of space sometimes (O_O). On my current character I have completed 1475 quests yay =D. However I know what you mean about finding things on your own and having an adventure of sorts. I really don't feel much adventure from EQ2. Every once in a while I do, but it's not as much as I would like. I'm really not sure what gives a game a sense of adventure. It seems like it has to be the right combination of several things. Maybe map size, a cause (passion to see something to the end), running into unexpected things, or even small land details. I always found it fun to travel off the beaten path in Vanguard cuz there where always little details in the landscape that amused me. Though I only played Vanguard for about 3 months.
P.S. "OH NO WE'RE OUT OF BACON AND EGGS TODAY. BETTER RALLY THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND HEAD OVER TO THE GROCERY STORE TO BUY THEM EGGS AND BACON FOR MY EPIC OMELETTE!" ~Plasmicredx
I liked dungeons to be filled with people as well. I think games today should redo the instance system. Clone the dungeons depending on how filled they are. This way i can go into instance nr 1 if i just want to hang with other people or help out or enter instance 2 if i want a less crowded area with my group. That way we would avoid having to wait for a camp spot but at the same time have an option for a more social experience.
It would of course kill scripted events but that's fine with me. I never cared for these story driven dungeons anyway. The fun part is killing. Not watching some lame RP story unfold you won't give two shits about the second time you enter anyway.
To be honest I'm not a fan of Quests. I used to love the original SWG not just for the skill system but because you had SO many ways to gain XP.
You could quest.
You could do space missions
You could grab a group and go hunt some stuff
Grab a group and go for some factional warfare
All were very viable options. Now it's all quest quest quest. I don't like being rail roaded.
I've played a lot of MMO's and any of the ones I've left have all had quests lines. City of Heroes I still play but only becuase I'm not limited to Quests to gain XP, although the limited other choices are getting old for me now.
Currently I play Eve quite a bit but I don't run missions I do what I want. Sometimes thats mining for some minerals to sell or build something. Other times I'll join a corp op for a blast but, like SWG, it's the freeedom I have to make MY choice what to do that I really enjoy.
Quests can have there place. They are a good way to introduce new players to a game but a game should not be built around them. it should offer more, much more, and not just things like crafting but alternative ways to gain XP/gain money.
I'm almost afraid to bring it up because I know it has some the source of some debate around here but, Darkfall is another game that quite well achieves this. It has it's bugs, no doubt, but the quests in game are, from what I saw, a preparation for the rest of the game. Once they are done you are pretty much on your own but then you are also free to do what you will.
I know I know, Darkfall has it's issues. Wander the world on your own and you'll tend to be ganked quite regularly. I have a number of issues regarding the game too, which I wont go into now, but it does offer the "freedom" experience that I much prefere over the railroad questing system
Gonesolo great point. One of the things that made swg amazing was if you look through the mission terminal you could pick what you wanted and knew the reward before you did the quest.
In lotr the experaince is gated toward follow the yellow brick road now a days even a mini map higlighted with quest information. To leading players to the next area, by the hand. While one can grind deeds. For the most part the best experaince is through questing only. I would love it if there was a reason to deliver body parts of the worm to x npc, other then just 20 hateful worm eyes. When a game so focuses on the quests it loses something. Most certainly toward higher part of the game that has less ways of getting quests. I would prefer a balance of questing and grinding.
Everquest was great for exploration, because it existed in a time before spoiler sites detailed everything the second it went live. If you really wanted to know about something it took a serious amount of effort to even have a chance to find something on the web about it. The best source for information was playing the game and talking to other players.
For example I recall spending a lot of time on the druid sanctuary forums and it wasn't until many months after the game came out that people finally figured out what the spell harmony even did. Another was reading a blog (where they called blogs back then?) from a UO player named Ronald Mcdonald who was playing on a pvp server and was detailing his treks through guk. It was the most complete information online at the time.
That translated into game by players actually sharing little bits of information about places they heard about and a desire to go there. Travel was also meaningful also. Without the ability to easily zip around the world it was an effort to go somewhere so everything between point a and point b had some importance.
I have fond memories, but would never go back. I'm fine with quests, but fall into the group of 'less is more'. Current games are just putting out volumes of tasks and calling them quests. Larger more involved quests would suit me just fine. Label the task style quests appropriately for solo play and have as many as you like.
Developers seem to have caught on that people like to solo and quest which is fine, but at the same time are ignoring the foundations of what made mmos so popular which is grouping. It wouldn't kill them to add a little incentive to group and more options for group content (again label it if that needs to be done). It would be nice to see some community building tools return as well.
SWG did not really have quests unless you count the themeparks. What it had was mission terminals that geve cookie cutter missions that were all pretty much the same. When my guild did mission grinding in groups we would just pick the closest missions that the terminal had in the moment since it was the only thing that really mattered. There was like zero variety there.
You've got a pretty good point there now that I think on it, most of the time in whatever MMO I'm playing, I'll just do quests and only group if I need to for a quest. I don't dislike grouping, but I guess I decide to do all the quests in an area and then group later, only the grouping up later never happens because the quests don't ever stop. I think for a true "group" mmo like EQ to work, it cannot spoil the player with so many easy quests with great rewards and XP, without these players would be eager to group up, and the community would only benefit.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
I also would prefer very few quests and a very strong crafting system that rewards dedicated players.......Like the OP I preferred a world of exploration like EQ over the quest driven worlds of WoW and EQ2.....
I agree that quests sometimes actually take away something from a game, in that they provide direction for players. Doesn't sound like a problem, and I suppose it's not for most. Weird people like me actually liked having to sneak into an area, find an open camp, and then pull the things they fight. It was a grind for sure, but the extra element of challenge somehow made it feel rewarding. I think most people would rather just skip the tedium and frustration, and that's reflected in current MMOs. Nothing wrong with that, the more accessible the game the more money they can make with it. I think that also accounts for a great deal of the player turnover rate, as people who feel they've actually earned something in an MMO are more reluctant to walk away from it.