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What if you could start at endgame from the beginnning?
markyturnip
Member UncommonPosts: 837
Strikes me that the success of a good levelling system can be measured by the following question:
Would you rather level up your character from level 1 to level cap, or start with a fully tooled-up character from the outset?
If the answer is that you would rather start with a fully formed character - and I am guessing for many people that is the case in practice - then something is wrong with MMOs today.
The journey should be fun - a voyage of discovery, challenge and achievements, self-realisation. In practice, I see people all pver the place 'rushing to end-game'
If the levelling process is something you have to grit your teeth and get through to reach 'end game', whatever that may mean, then it really begs teh question: why don't we have more MMOs that effectively start at end game.
That does not mean you would have no more room for growing your character, it just means you would not have to go through the painful process of a boring slow accretion of skills. If I am a fire wizard, give me fireballs from the get-go.
Now, you may argue that a good MMO is one that keeps customers coming back, and that the level up process is a good way of doing that. A 'start at endgame' model might undermine the financial viability.
Perhaps, but it also strikes me that retention rates in general have plummeted anyway, and that you might have more success offering people the fun option of trying fully formed alts, allowing them to experiment with various classes and set ups, rather than grinding each character up again.
Clearly, they could still build up the other things that form attachment - fun gear, unique possessions, guilds, houses etc.
To those who say that a game without levelling is not an MMORPG... well, I ask the question again. Because from the number of times I am told that the 'real game begins at end game' I suspect most people would rather just start from the top.
To those who say 'but it takes all that time to learn to play properly', I say nonsense. People play a lot of games these days, and it really does not take a genius to discover how to use various skills effectively in pretty short order.
I think Guild Wars was quite smart here - it offered the option of jumping straight in at level 20, or discovering the world and developing a character from scratch - which took longer, but led to slightly better characters.
Anyhow, it strikes me that there is much more room for a dive in at the deep end kind of MMO. No more killing rats, ever again. High level world-saving adventures from the get go...
And an interesting MMO might contain that very option: you can level up through the world, and have various adventures, OR start right up top with a fully-powered character. I am willing to bet most people would whisk to the second option.. and only do the 'levelling up' process, if at all, a month or two into the game... just for some variety.
Comments
I've always wondered what a game like that would be. Start out as a heroe from the get go and progress in ways that current MMOs provide without the leveling. Allow you and your friends to jump right into action. The only draw back to this would be an overwhelming amount of skills you would have to read tooltips for. Though I do agree and would like to see something like that.
I think you would lose out on a majority of the game if you could start at end game
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
I think the idea is really dumb unless its focused on pvp like GW. What I want to know is, what are these people rushing to endgame for? they want to pvp or raid?
It's funny that you would suggest this, given one of the other most common criticisms regarding MMOs is 'endgame' content—specifically either the lack thereof, or of it somehow falling short of expectations.
I hate end-game personnally. I feel like once I've hit end-game that the game has ended and has become boring and pointless. Don't they call it end-game because it ends the fun? lol. That's just my opinion but then again I don't enjoy PvP that much anyway so. I would prefer a game where PvP is a bigger part of the game, like you have to PvP to level. That would be nice. Or you should at least get something really nice out of PvPing.
I want to start out with all the whistles and bells at the BEGINNING.
Can you imagine playing Sonic and only getting the slow walk, and only after the 3rd stage you get your Jump, after the 4th stage you get your roll and after the 6th stage you get to play as Tails.
BUT WAIT...THERE's MORE
To get your jump, spin and tails unlock, you need to farm 34000 rings in the game.
HAVE FUN.
.
.
That's how MMO feel right now. When I get the experience I get from a single player game in an MMO, they will be worth playing again. I do play Street Gears, but no MMO which requires a lot of leveling.
Guild Wars can act as kind of a case in point. While there is a bit of indroductory low-level content (referred to by most players as 'noob islands'), the level cap is 20, and can be breezed up to in reasonably short time - my personal record is 8hrs to max a char - and depending on the campaign, around 60 - 80% of the entire game world is intended for lvl 20 chars, with the latest expansion intended entirely for the high level.
The concept didn't take the world by storm. There are the usual gripes about the heavy instancing and it not feeling like a 'real' MMO, but the vast majority of the criticisms you'll hear on the MMORPG boards is that the game isn't WoW - disappointment that the level cap is only 20, disappointment that gear is too well balanced and it's possible to mod a common magical weapon /w good enough upgrades to make it exactly as powerful as all the max unique items in the game.
In other words, the majority of players want and expect heavy leveling. Personally I feel it's because insane levels can make up for lack of competence - Can't get a mission done? Just level a few more days and you'll breeze though it. A few of the harder missions in GW end up creating chokepoints where some players get stuck for weeks on end. My guild usually organizes groups to help newer players out in those situations, the players that don't have access to helpful guilds usually quit in frusration and b*tch on message boards about how they wish the level cap was higher or gear was more varied.
The "real game starts at endgame" statement originates with games like WOW, where the game fundamentally changes how you advance at a certain point (levels stop coming and advancement comes purely from gear retrieved from dungeons/raids.)
The real question is "what exactly are you looking for in an MMO?"
The point being you wouldn't create an MMO that starts at "endgame" but instead you'd mirror what these other MMORPGs already do (ie CoX providing dungeon gameplay immediately at level 2 or 3, WAR provides early PVP raids immediately at level 1, and Guild Wars provides PVP with a new character who's immediately max level.)
Someone creating a new MMORPG would therefore figure out what activities they want players in their MMO to do, and design it so that's what you do. Even a game which focuses on early PVE Raiding would be possible (though I'm not sure why you'd want that,) given the correct mix of game mechanics.
Point being that most players I know who say "I wish I could skip to endgame" are chasing after a specific type of gameplay. Admittedly a few of them might be making the statement as a result of low-level content being too easy or low quality (I still think MMORPGs should offer "Hard Difficulty" quests while leveling, which provide endgame-style challenge and accelerate your leveling pace.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I hate the idea of "end-game" 100% and it has been defined by WoW and similiar games. I much prefer a game like Asheron's Call where players had a large open world to run around in and explore (and not the progress from quest hub to quest hub, ride the rail mess) and the "end-game" was the monthly content the devs would add in in which the vast majority of players could partake in and help guide the story of the game world.
"Many nights, my friend... Many nights I've put a blade to your throat while you were sleeping. Glad I never killed you, Steve. You're alright..."
Chavez y Chavez
When you need to advance to max level in order to socialize meaningfully with your friends, then the endgame is often a means to an end.
It still surprises me that more MMOs don't utilize some form of mentoring / level equalization system to assist in leveling.
Actually that started with EQ & DAOC, since leveling up was so slow and boring back then, people just wanted to get to the good parts as fast as possible. The raids in EQ and RvR in DAOC. RUSHING to the endgame and powerleveling came from older MMOs. People brought that gameplay style to WOW. WOW was the first MMO where the fun began from day 1 for most people. That was the big revelation and the major reason so many people latched on to it compared to other MMOs. You didn't need to actually get to the endgame to have fun, because it started at the beginning. A simple concept no MMO developer really understood.
Anyone who thought the REAL game started at the end, completely lost sight of all the content you skiped on your way there. How sad.
I got bored so quick with Guildwars though...everything your saying sounds great.
But when I actually played, boredom.
When GuildWars 2 comes out though, Ill definitely be giving that a try.
I have played a couple of MMOs that started at max level and I didnt like it.......I didnt play either one for very long at all (less than a month).......Im probably in the minority but I like the journey alot more than the final destination.......I enjoy leveling my character because it gives me a goal to shoot for......take that away and its one less goal I have to achieve.....Grinding reputation points or points for PVP never interested me at all.......Id rather level alts all day than do that.
If I start at the end-game I don't get to play the game do I? I get no achievement, I get no progression, I get no story. I get a pretty crappy game.
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What if you could start at endgame from the beginnning?
That genre is called MULTIPLAYER GAME, often done with FPS games.
No need for that within the MMORPG scene, but unfortunaly it seems many do want something like it yet ignore that MMORPG use to be something completely different then your regular Multiplayer game.
Also like to ad that I never have played a MMORPG where the fun started at cap lvl, every MMORPG it was all about the journey.
But I do feel that it has to do with me enjoying many different genre's of games, so meaning what I miss with a MMORPG I might find with other games, just like I don't care much for PVP in a MMORPG but enjoy it greatly with multiplayer games. Just like I enjoy the journey and everything before cap-lvl in a MMORPG, I want instant action from singleplayer games.
So if there would be MMORPG that starts at endgame it wouldn't be a MMORPG to me personaly as like I said I have multiplayer games for that and don't need MMORPG to become that limited as they are already largely dumpeddown in terms of what they could be.
Agreed.
And yeah, just because the idea of "PVP right at level 1" is solid that doesn't necessarily mean a company will execute that idea well. Despite liking a lot of things about Guild Wars (most interesting Skills in any MMO) it unfortunately made just a few too many mistakes for me to fully enjoy. I'd buy a sequel in an instant though, as I liked what they were trying to do.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
This is pretty much just personal preference, but no I'd rather not start at max level. I think something like that would just be a multiplayer game that costs a sub fee.
The question is similar to these:
Do you enjoy playing single player games on god mode?
Do you like puzzle games only when hints and the solutions are available?
Do you cheat at solitaire?
Starting at max level is like one end of an equation, the other end being that the game actually has levels in the first place, It would seem to me that these cancel each other out.
"Good? Bad? I'm the guy with the gun."
If you could start at the end it would completely take away from the effort which means it would be worthless, or at best a game like a FPS like Call of Duty or a RTS game because there is no true progression if you all start at the end.
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