I don't think you get it mate, without the U.S. naval base at Okinawa, Japan has nothing to fear from North Korea.
They don't need you to protect them, they would be a lot safer if you left.
You aren't defending Japan, you are occupying it. If you want to leave, leave. No one is going to try and dissuade you.
North Korea fears a military strike from the U.S. (Not Japan).
Last time this happened millions of them died. The U.S. outmanouvred them using marine landings.
The NK have the land border so heavily mined and defended that marine landings are the most likely method of invasion and the most difficult to counter.
The U.S. keeps a marine task force (MEU) at Okinawa in Japan. Every year it assembles in a great big fleet and practises landings near North Korea. North Korea isn't on the offensive, it is under seige.
So they have built a very big missile and some nukes. It is capable of sinking that entire fleet in it's port at Okinawa. And when they test fire missiles over to Japan, that is the range they have been making. The U.S. base. The invasion fleet.
Japan has no intrest in re-arming to fight Korea. The only country intrested in fighting Korea is America and I don't think America is really all that intrested at all.
They can warm up with the Sea Shepards from the Whale Wars reality show.Sometimes I think it would be pretty cool if Japan showed up with an Ice Breaker and just rammed them ,after all the stunts they pull as well as all the lieing to the media they do
Yeah, I'm in favor of Japan building up its military as well. Not just as a counter measure to North Korea, but to China as well; which is working toward becoming 1st class military power. It's Constitution may forbid it from having a strong military, but that resulted from it's WWII Imperialism. It's time to amend that clause and let Japan use some of its wealth to build up an army. Nuclear weapons wouldn't be a bad idea either. That might cause Kim Jong Il to think long and hard about its own nuclear ambitions.
Yeah, I'm in favor of Japan building up its military as well. Not just as a counter measure to North Korea, but to China as well; which is working toward becoming 1st class military power. It's Constitution may forbid it from having a strong military, but that resulted from it's WWII Imperialism. It's time to amend that clause and let Japan use some of its wealth to build up an army. Nuclear weapons wouldn't be a bad idea either. That might cause Kim Jong Il to think long and hard about its own nuclear ambitions.
Lil opposite there, Kim Jon Il want's nuclear weapons to posture itself first and foremost; another country posturing itself won't do a thing to deter them from that. If the US having nuclear weapons haven't deterred 'em so far, then Japan having one won't do a thing.
I remember how I once put it to my wife that Japan needed to build a military.
Shy looked at me.
And then asked why I thought that.
I said because of China.
She just looked at me like I was from another planet.
"China?". She said. And then did that looking at me thing again.
"We love China".
I tried explaining to her that China was a rising power that they couldn't hide behind America forever. It's like I was from Mars or something.
In the end I gave up. I'm not sure how the conversation went but it ended up with me saying, American's hate China and her saying American's hate everyone. I'd never heard her say anything negative about anyone before that, not since either.
I don't think you should rely on Japan to fight your enemies for you. Talk to the Aussies and the New Zealanders, they will back you up. Maybe we will too, if we get a decent fleet built in time.
Japan got Gundams under Mt. Fuji. I read this in Newsweek.
Nah, brah. They're building them now. See?
That's why we need them to re-arm...we need allies with this capability!
__________________________ "Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it." --Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints." --Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls." --Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
Joking aside, I think Popinjay just ignored my reply so I'll just restate what I said before: constitutions are living documents that must change to keep up with modern developments, and thus the argument that the Japanese constitution can never be changed is absurd. Sure it's controversial, and in a recession it is attractive to them to not have to spend money on a military but the fact of the matter is that we too are in a deep recession and it is my belief in a worst case scenario the US cannot fully honor its defense commitments to Japan. I think it is important they understand this and realize despite the painful economic costs that it is in their own best interest.
True. I ignored what you said about "constitutions being living documents that must change to keep up with modern developments." Why? The Constitution of Japan clearly shows why.
First, there is no precedent in Japanese constitutional history. They have NEVER changed ANY part of their constitution. Because their society thinks alike on the vast majority of issues, they do not feel the need to "evolve" like you think they should. You are looking at this with Western eyes only.
Again, the Japanese are a homogeneous society unlike ours, so there is no need for things like civil rights, discrimation practices, changes to voting; all the unfair issues that the US had put on its citizens VIOLATING the constitution. The only time sommeone needs to change a constitutuion is when the majority of the people, or the courts decides something is unfair. You miss the point here; the majority of Japanese do NOT want a larger military force or see a need, or think this is "unfair" to them, so why would they make an amendment?
"The constitution has not been amended once since its 1947 enactment. Article 96 provides that amendments can be made to any part of the constitution. However, a proposed amendment must first be approved by both houses of the Diet, by at least a super majority of two-thirds of each house (rather than just a simple majority). It must then be submitted to a referendum in which it is sufficient for it to be endorsed by a simple majority of votes cast. A successful amendment is finally promulgated by the Emperor, but the monarch cannot veto an amendment."
The constitution was drawn up under the Allied occupation that followed World War II and was intended to replace Japan's previous militaristic absolute monarchy system with a form of liberal democracy. Currently, it is a rigid document and no subsequent amendment has been made to it since its adoption.
No one said it should never be changed, but there is no incentive for the Japanese to do so, especially not now. And since we cannot force them, I'm not sure what you keep driving at.
Second, it's quite difficult to change their constitution unlike ours. Some have tried to change parts of thier constitution but again, because the Japanese people as a whole don't want to do it, that radical minority has no power or votes to do so. The times MAY change, but again by the time that swings around given how the Japanese think as a whole with few minorities of any type there, you and I will be long dead before anything like you are suggesting would ever happen.
You'd have an easier time getting Catholics to persuade the Pope to allow abortions and divorces, because a growing amount of Catholics think that should happen but they are in the minority. So they leave like that priest in Florida and just become Episcopalian, lol.
Your whole argument is based on an American mindset of "what I want is..." while dictating to another nation. This may be perfectly suitable here, but your desires have no bearing on a sovereign country. The idea you think it's somehow unfair the Japanese don't change their constitution to make a larger army and "pull their fair share of the weight" is myopic.
I'll say it again: there is absolutely NO reason for the Japanese people to incur a huge military budget when they don't have the manpower or will to wage war, especially when the US is contractually bound to defend them. That's a stupid thing for the Japanese to incur. This is not in their "best interest" no matter which way you are looking at this, lol.
You want to be a world leader? This is part of retaining an empire. This is part of the price, my friend. Honoring your treaties and obligations from conquest, no matter how difficult they later turn out to be.
All I am reading is the japanese people don't want this or that.
Don't want this.
Don't.
Don't.
Nobody WANTS war. Nobody excpet insane or overly ambitious human beings.
Problem with your entire arguement is is settles on WANT.
War is not wants, it's needs.
A society may not like the idea that someone will kill them and given the oblivious nature of the average Japanese citizen I'd say this is more true than not.
However they really must realize in order of survival that their needs to protect themselves needs to come first over the wants and wailing of the citizens who'd rather have another do something for them.
Which is exactly what this is. Japan is content using the US as it's shield however there may be a time and not in our life times that the US will simply not be able to hold ground for them.
Then what?
I do find it more than amusing this conversation went from Needs to Wants in an instant.
Do you think the damned bombs care about the wants of who is going to be under them?
Common sense. though lacking in this debate should allow one to realize such things.
However they really must realize in order of survival that their needs to protect themselves needs to come first over the wants and wailing of the citizens who'd rather have another do something for them. Which is exactly what this is. Japan is content using the US as it's shield however there may be a time and not in our life times that the US will simply not be able to hold ground for them. Then what? I do find it more than amusing this conversation went from Needs to Wants in an instant. Do you think the damned bombs care about the wants of who is going to be under them?
They already realize they need defense, which is what they already have. Bombs are inanimate objects unable to "care". Not sure what your point is there, but it's plain weird.
This is why they have a "defensive force" and not an "offensive force." They are perfectly happy with their defensive capabilities and don't worry about terrorism and other things Americans worry about. No jihadists want to blow up Japanese, do they? When was the last time you saw Osama sending a videotape decrying the "evil Japanese"? Never. Even North Korea doesn't really care about Japan attacking them, lol.
Content using? Sounds like too many MMOs for you, lol.
We have our bases there and the Japanese wanted them out. Since we "declined" to move them, we must foot the bill for their defense. Not sure how you don't see that plainly.
There "may come a time"? Or there may NOT come a time. Uniformed guesswork is not a substitute for daily reality that they presently aren't under attack. Let Japan worry about what happens or may happen in Japan's future, not the U.S.
They don't want or NEED to raise an offensive army. They already rent one.. ours.
"There are approximately 90 U.S. military facilities including major military bases throughout mainland Japan and Okinawa, with an area total of 3,130,000 sq.meters, 75% of which are in Okinawa. They are concentrated in a few areas (prefectures), 37 in Okinawa, 15 in Kanagawa, 11 in Nagasaki, and 7 in Tokyo. About 52,000 U.S. troops are stationed in these bases, 26,000 in mailand and 25,000 in Okinawa (2001). In mainland Japan, the largest contingent is the air force with 6,600 and that in Okinawa marines (15,500).
The U.S. armed forces in Japan, together with U.S. forces in South Korea, are subjected to the Pacific Command located in Hawaii though the Command located at Yokota Airbase in Tokyo also functions as an auxiliary command for the forces deployed all over Japan. The forces deployed to Japan are not a separate complete military unit but integral part of the Pacific Force as the largest of the four U.S. joint forces with a vast jurisdiction extending from the U.S. western coast and the whole of the Pacific Ocean through the Indian Ocean to the eastern coasts of Africa.
I think one needs to look at the underlying military reality before this question arises.
This is not really a question of North Korean versus Japan. If those were the only two players involved, Japan likely would have already formed a more significant military apparatus. The US maintains a much larger standing military force, but in some ways, Japan is more capable of fielding and maintaining a military body than we are. It's a question of manufacturing capability. When you look at the number of facilities involved in creating much of our bleeding edge military hardware, the numbers are extremely small. For instance, there are maybe one or two facilities that produce our newest blue water vessels. Only a handful of facilities produce our fifth-generation fighters. In some ways, Japan and Germany, with limited conversion of their massive manufacturing base, would be better-suited to creating a war machine in realtime for an ongoing, intense conflict. All they need is a solid supply of raw materials.
It's not about Japan, North Korea, the UN, or anybody else, though. It has, and has been October 1950, about the US and China. If you look at the total consumption of goods and services, as well as the raw materials provided to fuel the minor manufacturing capability present, North Korea's economy is essentially more or less based on Chinese aid. China expends these resources for a reason. They want North Korea as a buffer state. In fact, this status quo more or less suits the USA, as well. In terms of what they say, North Korea is a volatile, dangerous, unpredictable state. In terms of what they have actually done _thusfar_, they are an impotent, weak nation whose populace is starving and whose military apparatus is entirely based on foreign aid. That's not a huge threat.
You see, to an extent, foreign pressure on North Korea has worked. Clearly, North Korea cares little about what the West says or thinks, but their economic reliance on China means they are forced to bend to China's will on major issues. China does not desire war at this time. If war broke out, they would have a very hard time managing relations with their primary trade partner (the US) while simultaneously keeping North Korea from collapsing.
So what impetus does Japan have to develop a powerful miltiary when any military action would happen solely on the terms of the actual two major regional players, and any entanglement with North Korea would mean initiating a conflict with the much more powerful China? None, really.
If you seem to be of a mind that WWII was "ancient history" and that the underlining aspects of Japanese culture that lead to these atrocities are long gone, then take a gander at Gurochan. Or you can just google any Japanese pornography since it overwhelmingly features rape and degrigation.
On the surface, Japan seems very modern and progressive. Dig a little deeper and you see that there is something still very wrong lurking just out of sight.
Allowing Japan to militarize is a really bad idea. See also Unit 731.... If you seem to be of a mind that WWII was "ancient history" and that the underlining aspects of Japanese culture that lead to these atrocities are long gone, then take a gander at Gurochan. Or you can just google any Japanese pornography since it overwhelmingly features rape and degrigation. On the surface, Japan seems very modern and progressive. Dig a little deeper and you see that there is something still very wrong lurking just out of sight.
Back during WWII, Japan was the only military super power in Asia. It could never do today what it did then. China, for instance, was a back water nation back then and Japan ran roughshod over it. Today, China could squash Japan like a gnat if it really wanted too. I say allowing, even encouraging Japan to build a military is in our best interest. We could use a counter weight to communist China and communist North Korea, which both have formidable armies.
All I am reading is the japanese people don't want this or that. Don't want this. Don't. Don't.
Nobody WANTS war. Nobody excpet insane or overly ambitious human beings. Problem with your entire arguement is is settles on WANT. War is not wants, it's needs. A society may not like the idea that someone will kill them and given the oblivious nature of the average Japanese citizen I'd say this is more true than not. However they really must realize in order of survival that their needs to protect themselves needs to come first over the wants and wailing of the citizens who'd rather have another do something for them. Which is exactly what this is. Japan is content using the US as it's shield however there may be a time and not in our life times that the US will simply not be able to hold ground for them. Then what? I do find it more than amusing this conversation went from Needs to Wants in an instant. Do you think the damned bombs care about the wants of who is going to be under them?
Common sense. though lacking in this debate should allow one to realize such things. Wants, pfft.
Japanese people don't see North Korea or China as the biggest threat of starting a war. They see that as America. (The whole world sees that, not just the Japanese).
They can't re-arm against you, they are occupied. You aren't holding ground for them, you are holding their ground.
What they "need" to be safe is for you to leave. There are no invasion flleets off the coast of Japan. (At least none but the American one).
What you "want" is for them to be your military ally in the region. To fight your fights for you. For them to associate the things you see as threats to you as threats to them too.
Only they don't, they don't need to. You want them to, but they don't need to.
Oh and for the people who said Japan was not worried about North Korea or China:
"The US and Japan have been pushing for strong sanctions to punish North Korea for its nuclear test in May, but China and Russia have been wary about provoking Pyongyang's ire."
"However, since the mid-1990s, the percentage of Japanese who do not feel friendly to China has exceeded those who do; today, six out of ten Japanese harbor unfriendly feelings toward China."
I am proposing a solution for a crisis to the international community, and not attempting to be a spokesperson for a country I'm not a part of. The fact is despite whatever reluctance one ascribes to the Japanese, needs trump wants as another poster stated. Defense is one of the most basic priorities of a government, and legal barriers to this can and must be altered to avert a potential crisis. Most governments have contingency plans for any natural disaster or event that has even a 1% possibility of occurring. I would say the chance of North Korea launching an attack on Japan is close to or above 1%.
6-10 japanese people do not feel friendly to China according to some Korean woman?
I take it you don't know any Japanese people?
Who do you think Japan would rather sanction over nuclear weapons. North Korea, or the U.S.
Japan will never be safe from Korean missile strike as long as it hosts that fleet. If it builds it's own invasion fleet to replace the U.S. one, it still wont be any safer from potential missile strike.
If needs trump wants, then for Japan to be safe, America needs to leave.
North Korea doesn't have an armada. It poses no danger to Japan. It couldn't invade if it even wanted to.
If you guys want to stay in control of the pacific, you have to keep your military there. That's all there is to it.
If you don't mind giving up your intrests in Korea, Taiwan and Japan, you can go home. China is quite willing and able to protect them if they need any.
Need doesn't come into the equation. Just want. What do you want, and what are you prepared to do to get/keep it.
Any solution to your ambitions in Korea are not going to be solved by the Japanese. Nice fantasy, but no chance of it happening. Whatever beef you have with North Korea, you are going to have to come to terms with yourself. Japan isn't going to do it for you.
You want to be practical about the matter, you want to deal with the cold harsh realities. That is it.
The war is over. You can go home anytime you like. At the very least quit whinning on. The international crisis is of your making. North Korea isn't the entire problem.
Stop threatening them with invasion and nuclear strikes, stop blocading their shipping and prevailing on their neighbours not to trade with them, stop militarily opposing the re-unification of their country and they will stop building nuclear missiles and test firing them near your naval bases.
Japan re-arming has nothing to do with it.
I can't promise you that if you leave Korea the re-unification will be a peaceful one. It might be, but equally it might be a very bloodthirsty one. It's not an easy decision. But it is yours to make. Yours alone. Not Japans. Not North or South Korea's. Not China's, America's. You can go home any time. The others can't.
Oh and for the people who said Japan was not worried about North Korea or China: "The US and Japan have been pushing for strong sanctions to punish North Korea for its nuclear test in May, but China and Russia have been wary about provoking Pyongyang's ire."
Anytime you see:
"Today, the US and so-and-so country authorized..."
"Backed by the US and so-and-so country..."
"Strongly denounced by the US and so-and-so country..."
"Given that the US and so-and-so country agree that measures should be taken..."
Translation: "The US and some poor, henpecked, brow-beaten, bullied or coerced country that has been cattle-prodded to agree through monetary incentives or threats of shunning agreed to push for sanctions..."
Just ask Tony Blair how that went with Britian during Iraq.
China is quite willing and able to protect them if they need any. The Cold War is over, let them live in peace.
Are you serious? China has backed North Korea for the longest time and wanted to annex Taiwan as well. What makes you think anything would stop them otherwise? They even regularly sent warships off of Japan's coast, which has made the Japanese very uneasy lately.
China willing and able to protect.. seriously.. that's hilarious. The only thing keeping them from taking over those neighboring countries is our military presence.
The Cold War is over: Now it's a war through economic supremacy that China is waging against us. While you might want to distance yourself from the American government, you should realize by now that the UK is inextricably a part of it as reinforced by their support in Iraq. America is the largest country of nukes protecting western (the dominating .00000000005% that is) interests and don't you forget it.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Originally posted by Timberwolf0 If you've been paying attention to the news at all you know as well as I that the situation in the Korean peninsula is becoming extremely tense. North Korea has fired a missile they claimed was a satellite over Japanese airspace. They also reportedly have test fired a nuclear device. The latest development is the seizure of a couple of Chinese American reporters near their border who they have sentenced to 12 years in prison. Diplomacy has been tried for decades with this rogue state, to no avail. They are only becoming more dangerous by the day as they develop more and more sophisticated nuclear devices and longer range missiles. China has not made any move to restrain North Korea, and it is my personal opinion that they prefer the situation as it is now because it is favorable to them. North Korea right now is a larger threat than Saddam Hussein ever was. Unfortunately American military forces are already stretched too thin and the political climate too unstable to allow any sort of real policing. Therefore it is my belief that Japan needs to step up to the international plate so to speak and develop a world class military to serve as a counterweight to North Korea. They could add a lot of stability to the region. Currently Japan has a moderate sized military known as the Japan Self Defense Force. Japan's military budget is restricted to only be 3% of the total Japanese budget. The military is hamstrung by many provisions and in fact no members of the SDF are actually considered soldiers. Their navy has no ships above destroyer class. There are also many restrictions on precisely how and when the forces may be deployed. Some might say this post belongs on a Japanese message board, but I feel that the threat to international stability poses a risk to everyone in range of North Korea's missiles. What are your thoughts? JSDF http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japan_Self-Defense_Forces#Military_branches The article about the two reporters imprisoned: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8090543.stm
I did not read any posts past this first one in case anything has been stated previously, sorry.
Well I am currently stationed in Okinawa with 3 MEF, and I would like to explain what is going on. We are still at war with Korea it is just that we were in a cease fire for a very long time. The reason we have a large amount of the military out here is to be prepared to counteract anything stupid Korea does. We did give the land back to the Japanese, but we are still here to protect them as we agreed. Once, and if, anything happens we will locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver
China is quite willing and able to protect them if they need any. The Cold War is over, let them live in peace.
Are you serious? China has backed North Korea for the longest time and wanted to annex Taiwan as well. What makes you think anything would stop them otherwise? They even regularly sent warships off of Japan's coast, which has made the Japanese very uneasy lately.
China willing and able to protect.. seriously.. that's hilarious. The only thing keeping them from taking over those neighboring countries is our military presence.
The Cold War is over: Now it's a war through economic supremacy that China is waging against us. While you might want to distance yourself from the American government, you should realize by now that the UK is inextricably a part of it as reinforced by their support in Iraq. America is the largest country of nukes protecting western (the dominating .00000000005% that is) interests and don't you forget it.
That's right mate, China is willing and able to take over from the U.S. anytime you want to go. It's your choice. The only thing stopping that happening is you.
Taiwan and Korea are up for it, or at least they are as equally up for as they are up for your protection.
We've got more than enough nukes of our own, although we won't be forgetting you when we want some new ICBM's. We didn't forget you in Afghanistan either. Anytime you think you are getting a bum deal out of our alliance, you are welcome to leave. Lots of other countries sell missiles too. North Korea and China being two. France wants our money if it's not good enough for you.
We like being your allies and we feel we prosper from it. But the key to any alliance is mutual intrest. The only intrest we have in Afghanistan is keeping you sweet. In the Pacific we have little to no mutual intrest either. We might help you there if you ask, we might not. It's not a big concern for us.
I have family ties with America and Japan both. Economic and social ties with everyone. My fate isn't sealed with America although I am in bed with you.
Who runs the security of the Pacific is of little to no relavance to me outside of Australia and New Zealand. Mess with either of them and you will see some nukes fly.
I don't care if China or America is the regional security guarentor in the China sea. I'm down with both of those countries. They rock.
If either of those prospers, so do I. If one replaces another no problemo, they are interchangeable from where I am sitting. If you want to stay there, good luck to you, we might even help when we are able to. If you want to cut and run, good luck to you. There is no need for you to be there if you feel you can't afford it anymore. It's your choice mate.
There's no point getting all gripey and wishful about the Japanese not playing their part in your colonial empire. That's all I'm saying. It's not going to happen, don't waste your breath.
I don't care if China or America is the regional security guarentor in the China sea. I'm down with both of those countries. They rock. If either of those prospers, so do I. If one replaces another no problemo, they are interchangeable from where I am sitting. If you want to stay there, good luck to you, we might even help when we are able to. If you want to cut and run, good luck to you. There is no need for you to be there if you feel you can't afford it anymore. It's your choice mate. There's no point getting all gripey and wishful about the Japanese not playing their part in your colonial empire. That's all I'm saying. It's not going to happen, don't waste your breath.
Face it: You're just jealous that it's not Britain's.
As for China, you're welcome to think them of as humble a leader as the US, but you forget that they are not as concerned about their public image as America is and have that whole racial imperalism thing going for them. Genocide, torture (real torture, not the pathetic excuse for torture known as water boarding) and public suppression of human rights is the norm in China; the complete lack of moral repercussions in their culture makes their soldiers that much more efficient.
I wouldn't trust the Japanese with an army either for that matter.... and the Chinese harbor nothing but hatred for what the Japanese did to them but less than half a century ago; it would almost be like turning over the Germans to Israel.
Go ahead and bown down to your Chinese masters when they arrive, but don't say I didn't told you so when your scrotum becomes a circuit.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
Comments
I don't think you get it mate, without the U.S. naval base at Okinawa, Japan has nothing to fear from North Korea.
They don't need you to protect them, they would be a lot safer if you left.
You aren't defending Japan, you are occupying it. If you want to leave, leave. No one is going to try and dissuade you.
North Korea fears a military strike from the U.S. (Not Japan).
Last time this happened millions of them died. The U.S. outmanouvred them using marine landings.
The NK have the land border so heavily mined and defended that marine landings are the most likely method of invasion and the most difficult to counter.
The U.S. keeps a marine task force (MEU) at Okinawa in Japan. Every year it assembles in a great big fleet and practises landings near North Korea. North Korea isn't on the offensive, it is under seige.
So they have built a very big missile and some nukes. It is capable of sinking that entire fleet in it's port at Okinawa. And when they test fire missiles over to Japan, that is the range they have been making. The U.S. base. The invasion fleet.
Japan has no intrest in re-arming to fight Korea. The only country intrested in fighting Korea is America and I don't think America is really all that intrested at all.
They can warm up with the Sea Shepards from the Whale Wars reality show.Sometimes I think it would be pretty cool if Japan showed up with an Ice Breaker and just rammed them ,after all the stunts they pull as well as all the lieing to the media they do
Yeah, I'm in favor of Japan building up its military as well. Not just as a counter measure to North Korea, but to China as well; which is working toward becoming 1st class military power. It's Constitution may forbid it from having a strong military, but that resulted from it's WWII Imperialism. It's time to amend that clause and let Japan use some of its wealth to build up an army. Nuclear weapons wouldn't be a bad idea either. That might cause Kim Jong Il to think long and hard about its own nuclear ambitions.
Lil opposite there, Kim Jon Il want's nuclear weapons to posture itself first and foremost; another country posturing itself won't do a thing to deter them from that. If the US having nuclear weapons haven't deterred 'em so far, then Japan having one won't do a thing.
I remember how I once put it to my wife that Japan needed to build a military.
Shy looked at me.
And then asked why I thought that.
I said because of China.
She just looked at me like I was from another planet.
"China?". She said. And then did that looking at me thing again.
"We love China".
I tried explaining to her that China was a rising power that they couldn't hide behind America forever. It's like I was from Mars or something.
In the end I gave up. I'm not sure how the conversation went but it ended up with me saying, American's hate China and her saying American's hate everyone. I'd never heard her say anything negative about anyone before that, not since either.
I don't think you should rely on Japan to fight your enemies for you. Talk to the Aussies and the New Zealanders, they will back you up. Maybe we will too, if we get a decent fleet built in time.
Nah, brah. They're building them now. See?
That's why we need them to re-arm...we need allies with this capability!
__________________________
"Its sad when people use religion to feel superior, its even worse to see people using a video game to do it."
--Arcken
"...when it comes to pimping EVE I have little restraints."
--Hellmar, CEO of CCP.
"It's like they took a gun, put it to their nugget sack and pulled the trigger over and over again, each time telling us how great it was that they were shooting themselves in the balls."
--Exar_Kun on SWG's NGE
we need team america... f**k yeah!
If you watch The Karate Kid backwards it's about this karate champ that just kinda slowly becomes a pussy and ends up moving back to Jersey
True. I ignored what you said about "constitutions being living documents that must change to keep up with modern developments." Why? The Constitution of Japan clearly shows why.
First, there is no precedent in Japanese constitutional history. They have NEVER changed ANY part of their constitution. Because their society thinks alike on the vast majority of issues, they do not feel the need to "evolve" like you think they should. You are looking at this with Western eyes only.
Again, the Japanese are a homogeneous society unlike ours, so there is no need for things like civil rights, discrimation practices, changes to voting; all the unfair issues that the US had put on its citizens VIOLATING the constitution. The only time sommeone needs to change a constitutuion is when the majority of the people, or the courts decides something is unfair. You miss the point here; the majority of Japanese do NOT want a larger military force or see a need, or think this is "unfair" to them, so why would they make an amendment?
No one said it should never be changed, but there is no incentive for the Japanese to do so, especially not now. And since we cannot force them, I'm not sure what you keep driving at.
Second, it's quite difficult to change their constitution unlike ours. Some have tried to change parts of thier constitution but again, because the Japanese people as a whole don't want to do it, that radical minority has no power or votes to do so. The times MAY change, but again by the time that swings around given how the Japanese think as a whole with few minorities of any type there, you and I will be long dead before anything like you are suggesting would ever happen.
You'd have an easier time getting Catholics to persuade the Pope to allow abortions and divorces, because a growing amount of Catholics think that should happen but they are in the minority. So they leave like that priest in Florida and just become Episcopalian, lol.
Your whole argument is based on an American mindset of "what I want is..." while dictating to another nation. This may be perfectly suitable here, but your desires have no bearing on a sovereign country. The idea you think it's somehow unfair the Japanese don't change their constitution to make a larger army and "pull their fair share of the weight" is myopic.
I'll say it again: there is absolutely NO reason for the Japanese people to incur a huge military budget when they don't have the manpower or will to wage war, especially when the US is contractually bound to defend them. That's a stupid thing for the Japanese to incur. This is not in their "best interest" no matter which way you are looking at this, lol.
You want to be a world leader? This is part of retaining an empire. This is part of the price, my friend. Honoring your treaties and obligations from conquest, no matter how difficult they later turn out to be.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Heh.
All I am reading is the japanese people don't want this or that.
Don't want this.
Don't.
Don't.
Nobody WANTS war. Nobody excpet insane or overly ambitious human beings.
Problem with your entire arguement is is settles on WANT.
War is not wants, it's needs.
A society may not like the idea that someone will kill them and given the oblivious nature of the average Japanese citizen I'd say this is more true than not.
However they really must realize in order of survival that their needs to protect themselves needs to come first over the wants and wailing of the citizens who'd rather have another do something for them.
Which is exactly what this is. Japan is content using the US as it's shield however there may be a time and not in our life times that the US will simply not be able to hold ground for them.
Then what?
I do find it more than amusing this conversation went from Needs to Wants in an instant.
Do you think the damned bombs care about the wants of who is going to be under them?
Common sense. though lacking in this debate should allow one to realize such things.
Wants, pfft.
If japan goes to war, there wont be no ffxiv
If you watch The Karate Kid backwards it's about this karate champ that just kinda slowly becomes a pussy and ends up moving back to Jersey
The rape game market would dry up as well.
Ah yes we'd look fondly back at Japan for not their culture but Battle Raper 1-2.
Not to mention the other 50,000 titles involving molesting,murdering, and/or raping women.
Also like you said no FFXIV or FFXV or FFXX or FFXXIV.
Come to think of it ..
GO NKOREA!
They already realize they need defense, which is what they already have. Bombs are inanimate objects unable to "care". Not sure what your point is there, but it's plain weird.
This is why they have a "defensive force" and not an "offensive force." They are perfectly happy with their defensive capabilities and don't worry about terrorism and other things Americans worry about. No jihadists want to blow up Japanese, do they? When was the last time you saw Osama sending a videotape decrying the "evil Japanese"? Never. Even North Korea doesn't really care about Japan attacking them, lol.
Content using? Sounds like too many MMOs for you, lol.
We have our bases there and the Japanese wanted them out. Since we "declined" to move them, we must foot the bill for their defense. Not sure how you don't see that plainly.
There "may come a time"? Or there may NOT come a time. Uniformed guesswork is not a substitute for daily reality that they presently aren't under attack. Let Japan worry about what happens or may happen in Japan's future, not the U.S.
They don't want or NEED to raise an offensive army. They already rent one.. ours.
"TO MICHAEL!"
I think one needs to look at the underlying military reality before this question arises.
This is not really a question of North Korean versus Japan. If those were the only two players involved, Japan likely would have already formed a more significant military apparatus. The US maintains a much larger standing military force, but in some ways, Japan is more capable of fielding and maintaining a military body than we are. It's a question of manufacturing capability. When you look at the number of facilities involved in creating much of our bleeding edge military hardware, the numbers are extremely small. For instance, there are maybe one or two facilities that produce our newest blue water vessels. Only a handful of facilities produce our fifth-generation fighters. In some ways, Japan and Germany, with limited conversion of their massive manufacturing base, would be better-suited to creating a war machine in realtime for an ongoing, intense conflict. All they need is a solid supply of raw materials.
It's not about Japan, North Korea, the UN, or anybody else, though. It has, and has been October 1950, about the US and China. If you look at the total consumption of goods and services, as well as the raw materials provided to fuel the minor manufacturing capability present, North Korea's economy is essentially more or less based on Chinese aid. China expends these resources for a reason. They want North Korea as a buffer state. In fact, this status quo more or less suits the USA, as well. In terms of what they say, North Korea is a volatile, dangerous, unpredictable state. In terms of what they have actually done _thusfar_, they are an impotent, weak nation whose populace is starving and whose military apparatus is entirely based on foreign aid. That's not a huge threat.
You see, to an extent, foreign pressure on North Korea has worked. Clearly, North Korea cares little about what the West says or thinks, but their economic reliance on China means they are forced to bend to China's will on major issues. China does not desire war at this time. If war broke out, they would have a very hard time managing relations with their primary trade partner (the US) while simultaneously keeping North Korea from collapsing.
So what impetus does Japan have to develop a powerful miltiary when any military action would happen solely on the terms of the actual two major regional players, and any entanglement with North Korea would mean initiating a conflict with the much more powerful China? None, really.
Allowing Japan to militarize is a really bad idea.
See also Unit 731....
If you seem to be of a mind that WWII was "ancient history" and that the underlining aspects of Japanese culture that lead to these atrocities are long gone, then take a gander at Gurochan. Or you can just google any Japanese pornography since it overwhelmingly features rape and degrigation.
On the surface, Japan seems very modern and progressive. Dig a little deeper and you see that there is something still very wrong lurking just out of sight.
Back during WWII, Japan was the only military super power in Asia. It could never do today what it did then. China, for instance, was a back water nation back then and Japan ran roughshod over it. Today, China could squash Japan like a gnat if it really wanted too. I say allowing, even encouraging Japan to build a military is in our best interest. We could use a counter weight to communist China and communist North Korea, which both have formidable armies.
Japanese people don't see North Korea or China as the biggest threat of starting a war. They see that as America. (The whole world sees that, not just the Japanese).
They can't re-arm against you, they are occupied. You aren't holding ground for them, you are holding their ground.
What they "need" to be safe is for you to leave. There are no invasion flleets off the coast of Japan. (At least none but the American one).
What you "want" is for them to be your military ally in the region. To fight your fights for you. For them to associate the things you see as threats to you as threats to them too.
Only they don't, they don't need to. You want them to, but they don't need to.
Take your shield and go home.
Nah, brah. They're building them now. See?
Wait, no. It's finished.
Enjoy your freedom while it lasts.
That little tin can has no chance.
Here's the latest: N Korea draft resolution agreed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8093494.stm
Oh and for the people who said Japan was not worried about North Korea or China:
"The US and Japan have been pushing for strong sanctions to punish North Korea for its nuclear test in May, but China and Russia have been wary about provoking Pyongyang's ire."
Additionally: http://www.asianperspective.org/articles/v31n3-e.pdf
"However, since the mid-1990s, the percentage of Japanese who do not feel friendly to China has exceeded those who do; today, six out of ten Japanese harbor unfriendly feelings toward China."
I am proposing a solution for a crisis to the international community, and not attempting to be a spokesperson for a country I'm not a part of. The fact is despite whatever reluctance one ascribes to the Japanese, needs trump wants as another poster stated. Defense is one of the most basic priorities of a government, and legal barriers to this can and must be altered to avert a potential crisis. Most governments have contingency plans for any natural disaster or event that has even a 1% possibility of occurring. I would say the chance of North Korea launching an attack on Japan is close to or above 1%.
6-10 japanese people do not feel friendly to China according to some Korean woman?
I take it you don't know any Japanese people?
Who do you think Japan would rather sanction over nuclear weapons. North Korea, or the U.S.
Japan will never be safe from Korean missile strike as long as it hosts that fleet. If it builds it's own invasion fleet to replace the U.S. one, it still wont be any safer from potential missile strike.
If needs trump wants, then for Japan to be safe, America needs to leave.
North Korea doesn't have an armada. It poses no danger to Japan. It couldn't invade if it even wanted to.
If you guys want to stay in control of the pacific, you have to keep your military there. That's all there is to it.
If you don't mind giving up your intrests in Korea, Taiwan and Japan, you can go home. China is quite willing and able to protect them if they need any.
Need doesn't come into the equation. Just want. What do you want, and what are you prepared to do to get/keep it.
Any solution to your ambitions in Korea are not going to be solved by the Japanese. Nice fantasy, but no chance of it happening. Whatever beef you have with North Korea, you are going to have to come to terms with yourself. Japan isn't going to do it for you.
You want to be practical about the matter, you want to deal with the cold harsh realities. That is it.
The war is over. You can go home anytime you like. At the very least quit whinning on. The international crisis is of your making. North Korea isn't the entire problem.
Stop threatening them with invasion and nuclear strikes, stop blocading their shipping and prevailing on their neighbours not to trade with them, stop militarily opposing the re-unification of their country and they will stop building nuclear missiles and test firing them near your naval bases.
Japan re-arming has nothing to do with it.
I can't promise you that if you leave Korea the re-unification will be a peaceful one. It might be, but equally it might be a very bloodthirsty one. It's not an easy decision. But it is yours to make. Yours alone. Not Japans. Not North or South Korea's. Not China's, America's. You can go home any time. The others can't.
The Cold War is over, let them live in peace.
Anytime you see:
"Today, the US and so-and-so country authorized..."
"Backed by the US and so-and-so country..."
"Strongly denounced by the US and so-and-so country..."
"Given that the US and so-and-so country agree that measures should be taken..."
Translation: "The US and some poor, henpecked, brow-beaten, bullied or coerced country that has been cattle-prodded to agree through monetary incentives or threats of shunning agreed to push for sanctions..."
Just ask Tony Blair how that went with Britian during Iraq.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Are you serious? China has backed North Korea for the longest time and wanted to annex Taiwan as well. What makes you think anything would stop them otherwise? They even regularly sent warships off of Japan's coast, which has made the Japanese very uneasy lately.
China willing and able to protect.. seriously.. that's hilarious. The only thing keeping them from taking over those neighboring countries is our military presence.
The Cold War is over: Now it's a war through economic supremacy that China is waging against us. While you might want to distance yourself from the American government, you should realize by now that the UK is inextricably a part of it as reinforced by their support in Iraq. America is the largest country of nukes protecting western (the dominating .00000000005% that is) interests and don't you forget it.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
I did not read any posts past this first one in case anything has been stated previously, sorry.
Well I am currently stationed in Okinawa with 3 MEF, and I would like to explain what is going on. We are still at war with Korea it is just that we were in a cease fire for a very long time. The reason we have a large amount of the military out here is to be prepared to counteract anything stupid Korea does. We did give the land back to the Japanese, but we are still here to protect them as we agreed. Once, and if, anything happens we will locate, close with and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver
Are you serious? China has backed North Korea for the longest time and wanted to annex Taiwan as well. What makes you think anything would stop them otherwise? They even regularly sent warships off of Japan's coast, which has made the Japanese very uneasy lately.
China willing and able to protect.. seriously.. that's hilarious. The only thing keeping them from taking over those neighboring countries is our military presence.
The Cold War is over: Now it's a war through economic supremacy that China is waging against us. While you might want to distance yourself from the American government, you should realize by now that the UK is inextricably a part of it as reinforced by their support in Iraq. America is the largest country of nukes protecting western (the dominating .00000000005% that is) interests and don't you forget it.
That's right mate, China is willing and able to take over from the U.S. anytime you want to go. It's your choice. The only thing stopping that happening is you.
Taiwan and Korea are up for it, or at least they are as equally up for as they are up for your protection.
We've got more than enough nukes of our own, although we won't be forgetting you when we want some new ICBM's. We didn't forget you in Afghanistan either. Anytime you think you are getting a bum deal out of our alliance, you are welcome to leave. Lots of other countries sell missiles too. North Korea and China being two. France wants our money if it's not good enough for you.
We like being your allies and we feel we prosper from it. But the key to any alliance is mutual intrest. The only intrest we have in Afghanistan is keeping you sweet. In the Pacific we have little to no mutual intrest either. We might help you there if you ask, we might not. It's not a big concern for us.
I have family ties with America and Japan both. Economic and social ties with everyone. My fate isn't sealed with America although I am in bed with you.
Who runs the security of the Pacific is of little to no relavance to me outside of Australia and New Zealand. Mess with either of them and you will see some nukes fly.
I don't care if China or America is the regional security guarentor in the China sea. I'm down with both of those countries. They rock.
If either of those prospers, so do I. If one replaces another no problemo, they are interchangeable from where I am sitting. If you want to stay there, good luck to you, we might even help when we are able to. If you want to cut and run, good luck to you. There is no need for you to be there if you feel you can't afford it anymore. It's your choice mate.
There's no point getting all gripey and wishful about the Japanese not playing their part in your colonial empire. That's all I'm saying. It's not going to happen, don't waste your breath.
Face it: You're just jealous that it's not Britain's.
As for China, you're welcome to think them of as humble a leader as the US, but you forget that they are not as concerned about their public image as America is and have that whole racial imperalism thing going for them. Genocide, torture (real torture, not the pathetic excuse for torture known as water boarding) and public suppression of human rights is the norm in China; the complete lack of moral repercussions in their culture makes their soldiers that much more efficient.
I wouldn't trust the Japanese with an army either for that matter.... and the Chinese harbor nothing but hatred for what the Japanese did to them but less than half a century ago; it would almost be like turning over the Germans to Israel.
Go ahead and bown down to your Chinese masters when they arrive, but don't say I didn't told you so when your scrotum becomes a circuit.
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.