The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination. I really can't stand the term. What MMO's do all have are "Time Sinks". That is, afterall, the point, to retain subscriptions on a monthly basis by drawing them in to the game with things to do, goals to achieve, etc. Some games like WoW, allow one to soar through levels quickly, but required an insane time sink for raids, at least years back when I played. I hated that personally. Other games like Lineage ][, especially when initially released, was considered a huge "grind", because of how long it took to level and gain new skills. While I understood this, for "me", I didn't focus on levels. I loved just playing the game. It was amazing, and probably even more so now, although I haven't played in a year or so. It just seems to me that the term "Grind" is inappropriately used. Generally a game allows one to move through skills or levels fast and provides "time sinks" in other ways, or a game takes more time to progress in, and that is the "time sink. If a game is fun, the whole point is to have a time sink. Once the time sink is over, so is the game. Bottom line is one either likes a game, or doesn't. "Grind" is a misleading word, and in the manner some use it so freely to describe games they don't like, words like "whining" are used to categorize posts people make that others don't like. In the same way, both word are over-used hot buttom words and really mean nothing. -Other
Wish to know how to eliminate grind? Make the game fun from start to finish. Only game I ever played online that was like that was Planetside. Unfortunately I serious doubt I'll ever see or play another game that was as fun as that game was. OMG I couldn't wait to play it. There was 0 - nada - zilch - no grind in that game for me. From day one until I quit that game was fun. I only stopped playing because a lot of my friends stopped playing and the lack of support for the game from SOE. Planetside was an awesome game!
I would love to see another Planetside based game.
I think an MMORPG based on Age of Empires or Age of Mythology game play mixed with Mount and Blade type level progression and combat machenics would make a killer MMORPG. I look forward to the day when someone puts one like that together. ^_^
The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination. I really can't stand the term. What MMO's do all have are "Time Sinks". That is, afterall, the point, to retain subscriptions on a monthly basis by drawing them in to the game with things to do, goals to achieve, etc. Some games like WoW, allow one to soar through levels quickly, but required an insane time sink for raids, at least years back when I played. I hated that personally. Other games like Lineage ][, especially when initially released, was considered a huge "grind", because of how long it took to level and gain new skills. While I understood this, for "me", I didn't focus on levels. I loved just playing the game. It was amazing, and probably even more so now, although I haven't played in a year or so. It just seems to me that the term "Grind" is inappropriately used. Generally a game allows one to move through skills or levels fast and provides "time sinks" in other ways, or a game takes more time to progress in, and that is the "time sink. If a game is fun, the whole point is to have a time sink. Once the time sink is over, so is the game. Bottom line is one either likes a game, or doesn't. "Grind" is a misleading word, and in the manner some use it so freely to describe games they don't like, words like "whining" are used to categorize posts people make that others don't like. In the same way, both word are over-used hot buttom words and really mean nothing. -Other
Wish to know how to eliminate grind? Make the game fun from start to finish. Only game I ever played online that was like that was Planetside. Unfortunately I serious doubt I'll ever see or play another game that was as fun as that game was. OMG I couldn't wait to play it. There was 0 - nada - zilch - no grind in that game for me. From day one until I quit that game was fun. I only stopped playing because a lot of my friends stopped playing and the lack of support for the game from SOE. Planetside was an awesome game!
I would love to see another Planetside based game.
I think an MMORPG based on Age of Empires or Age of Mythology game play mixed with Mount and Blade type level progression and combat machenics would make a killer MMORPG. I look forward to the day when someone puts one like that together. ^_^
Yes! I loved Planetside, was truly a great game. Loved the atv. Sadly, left for the same reasons too.
Well aware that Paradox and subjective aren't the same. Explain then, how one word can be a Paradox?
(Edit) Sorry, I don't entirely disagree with the point you're trying to make, just don't agree that it's a paradox. And you just said as much in your above post.
I think you missunderstand me. I am saying it is NOT and CANNOT be a paradox, as I gave an example of what being a paradox is.
However I agree with the term "grind" is subjective as it varies from people to people what they find is a repetetive task. I find killing AI mobs to be repetetive, also killing player mobs to be repeteive and same with quests. So for me all of those are a grind.
However I do find killing players to be enjoyable but that does not stop it from becoming a grind if I have to repeat it 1000 times to gain some benefit. So I don't think grinding is neccessary a bad thing but it is mostly subjective yes. (but not a paradox which is something completely different).
I think we had our lines crossed! Well mine were anyway.. I did initially say 'grind' wasn't a paradox and it was subjective. So basically we agree with each other I'm off to give my brain a rest..
Defining the word grind might be a grind in itself. However, be careful not to get stuck into a single definition. They tend to narrow the spirit.
Besides, for those who are looking for a definition outside of the inter-subjectivity realm, i wish you good luck. In essence, grind relates to the subjects experience of what is hard and tedious.
A similar situation happened when Tim Ferris published his book. He called work only "the stuff that you do for financial needs and that you would do less of (if you could)". He was critized alot on this particular concept.
Anyways, i encourage this philosophical discussion about the concept "grind"
By the way, the concept of grind is certainly not a paradox. A paradox implies, within a represtation (or system or construct) a contradiction within its own structure. So, the concept of grind has no contradiction within itself. Thus, the concept of grind is not a paradox.
The original poster nailed it. The minute you start considering the game "a grind", it means the fun factor is not there anymore. Doesn't matter if it's a grind for levels, gear or reputation. When you like to do something in a game, you don't even bother to put a name on it. You just enjoy it and don't ask any questions.
Thank you Seen_Justice. Exactly.
Yamota - If you don't relate to my reference of Paradox, no problems, but you are being a bit anal about it. What I meant is simple.
paradox
One entry found.
Main Entry:par·a·dox
Pronunciation:?per-?-?däks, ?pa-r?-
Function:noun
Etymology:Latin paradoxum, from Greek paradoxon, from neuter of paradoxos contrary to expectation, from para- + dokein to think, seem — more at decent
Date:1540
1: a tenet contrary to received opinion
2 a: a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true b: a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true c: an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises
3: one (as a person, situation, or action) having seemingly contradictory qualities or phases
If you read what I underlined and bolded above, you will understand why I find calling a game a grind is a paradox. It is a paradox because it is only defined as a grind by players that believe it is, as if that's an emperical truth, when in fact, it is not emperical truth at all. One persons grind is another persons enjoyable game.
Just because our often dysfunctional Internet gaming community accepts the word "Grind", doesn't make it valid, any more than one who would describe my post as "whining". Obviously I'm not whining, but some may either experience me as doing so, or merely use the word to insult me, in the same manner the subjective term of "grind" is placed on games to insult them. It would be far more accurate for a person who finds a game a grind, to simply say they aren't enjoying the journey. That says the same thing, but not a manner that categorizes a game in a way that is only true because, well, because they don't enjoy the journey. lol
c: an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises
3: one (as a person, situation, or action) having seemingly contradictory qualities or phases It is a paradox because it is only defined as a grind by players that believe it is, as if that's an emperical truth, when in fact, it is not emperical truth at all. One persons grind is another persons enjoyable game.
As you said, a grind is only defined as a grind by players that believe it is.
A chair is also only a chair by the people who believe it is a chair.
Hence, you are right, the representations are made and shared by the community who revolves around the concept.
But, dont forget that players who don't believe it is a grind also have an impact on the definition of the concept. They also revolve around the concept (us?). This is where the beauty is, inter-subjectivity, constructivism, nothing is true until accepted by the subjective experience of others. (not in science, see positivism)
Anyways, i still don't see why the concept is a paradox, because the concept of "grind" doesn't appear to derive self-contradictory conclusions by "valid" (what are these?) deductions from acceptable premises (what are those?).
In my mind, a concept such as grind cannot be refered as a paradox.
You are quoting me out of context I said a game is considered a Grind by those who don't enjoy the journey. See the first line of the first post I made to start this thread.
"The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination."
It is an emperical truth that a chair is a chair, not subject to opinion.
"The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination." It is an emperical truth that a chair is a chair, not subject to opinion.
I totally agree with that. In fact, i found the first lines of your thread well written and thought out. Much respect to your written thoughs.
Not so sure about whats emperical about a chair being a chair. Because a "chair" can also be a "place to sit" or a "stereo holder" (in my case). That kind of posture, btw, is soooo "schizo"
The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination. I really can't stand the term. What MMO's do all have are "Time Sinks". That is, afterall, the point, to retain subscriptions on a monthly basis by drawing them in to the game with things to do, goals to achieve, etc. Some games like WoW, allow one to soar through levels quickly, but required an insane time sink for raids, at least years back when I played. I hated that personally. Other games like Lineage ][, especially when initially released, was considered a huge "grind", because of how long it took to level and gain new skills. While I understood this, for "me", I didn't focus on levels. I loved just playing the game. It was amazing, and probably even more so now, although I haven't played in a year or so. It just seems to me that the term "Grind" is inappropriately used. Generally a game allows one to move through skills or levels fast and provides "time sinks" in other ways, or a game takes more time to progress in, and that is the "time sink. If a game is fun, the whole point is to have a time sink. Once the time sink is over, so is the game. Bottom line is one either likes a game, or doesn't. "Grind" is a misleading word, and in the manner some use it so freely to describe games they don't like, words like "whining" are used to categorize posts people make that others don't like. In the same way, both word are over-used hot buttom words and really mean nothing. -Other
The term "grind" is actually used in the gaming community as a means of describing a game in which killing a ridiculous number of mobs your level over and over (usually for a few hours). You'll know a grind when you see one, versus quest leveling.
No. That is what the term "grind" means to us "old-timers." The newer generation of gamers has totally destroyed the original meaning of the word, much like the words "troll" and "fanboi" no longer have the same meaning as they once did. Many of the newer generation of gamers HATE questing (particularly READING quests) and consider questing to be a grind. Basically, the way I see it is....they want the constant action of an FPS, but they don't want to play FPS games any more....OR....they want ALL GAMES to be turned into FPS-like games. Pffft.
Anyway...you didn't ask to be my sounding board for bitching...sorry. But I do agree with YOUR definition of "grind," it's just that we are RARE in holding that definition.
The grind is not strictly associated with repeatedly killing mobs. "Daily quest grind" ring any bells?
I don't consider dailies a grind in games that I ENJOY playing. This goes back to the fact that the word "grind" has lost it's original meaning.
Grind USED TO MEAN.....killing the same mobs over and over and over, seemingly ENDLESSLY just to level. Period. Now people just randomly apply the term "grind" to anything they have to do in the game more than once that they PERSONALLY don't like.
I laugh every time i hear someone complain about grinds in MMO's. The more games cater to the instant gratification crowd the more people seem to cry about grinding in MMO's. I honestly think if a game came out of the box with a max lvl character some people would complain that they want two. The entire point of an MMO is to keep you playing it. If you complete all the content in a month whay would you resub? The lousy thing is that games have opted for forced time sinks like one week lockouts and such rather than make something difficult enough that you cant do it in a month. Most MMO's you can get to max lvl in a week if you try and know the ropes. My first MMO, EQ took me over 6 months and I played every day almost.
I think it's a waste of time to even have levels in games anymore; you level so fast its meaningless. The lower lvl zones go pretty much unused in most games now.
The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination. I really can't stand the term. What MMO's do all have are "Time Sinks". That is, afterall, the point, to retain subscriptions on a monthly basis by drawing them in to the game with things to do, goals to achieve, etc. Some games like WoW, allow one to soar through levels quickly, but required an insane time sink for raids, at least years back when I played. I hated that personally. Other games like Lineage ][, especially when initially released, was considered a huge "grind", because of how long it took to level and gain new skills. While I understood this, for "me", I didn't focus on levels. I loved just playing the game. It was amazing, and probably even more so now, although I haven't played in a year or so. It just seems to me that the term "Grind" is inappropriately used. Generally a game allows one to move through skills or levels fast and provides "time sinks" in other ways, or a game takes more time to progress in, and that is the "time sink. If a game is fun, the whole point is to have a time sink. Once the time sink is over, so is the game. Bottom line is one either likes a game, or doesn't. "Grind" is a misleading word, and in the manner some use it so freely to describe games they don't like, words like "whining" are used to categorize posts people make that others don't like. In the same way, both word are over-used hot buttom words and really mean nothing. -Other
Grinding is repeating the same thing over and over. It is of course also a time sink if you prefer that term.
The reason for it is that devs are lazy and make boring repeative tasks and quests instead of inventing funnier things.
Kill 20 rats is a typical grind quest, or being forced to craft a lot of worthless things that you vendortrash so you can raise your crafting skill a little. The game can ofcourse also have most content at the end and forcing you to kill mobs in loads to level up so you can hit the good content.
I want to have fun, not do the same thing 300 times to raise something slightly, so I can do stuff like create something my character can use or whatever.
And just because I don't like grinding in a game doesn't mean that I don't like other parts of the game. It is like going on vacation, the travel in itself is often boring but the time there is fun. I like drinking Guiness but I don't like hangovers. I don't like all songs of my favorite musicians either.
As I see it, it is possible to make a MMO that is interesting just for the sake of playing it, Guildwars is doing this rather well, but not perfect. Cut out the boring parts and make stuff like crafting and quests fun, like in Neverwinter nights by Bioware, no grinding there and I played it for months anyways.
I dont want to repeat the same boring thing over and over, I already do that for 37 hours a week, it is called "work".
I've given up mostly on MMOs in the regard to grind/not grind and all the crap that gets flung about.
More specifically, I've just gotten bored of most of them.
How does this apply to the situation? Because you need to relate the situation, as all other things do, to the individuals it regards and the preferences they have. Grind has definitely changed in meaning to encompass many trivial aspects, that doesn't remove the fact that people are in fact complaining.
The problem in and of itself is how the time sinks are implemented. More often than not it's not an issue directly of what the task at hand is so much as how long it's taking to reach the end. This is a fault more of the desire than it is the task, and the solution isn't to simply throw the reward at people.
I personally think it'd be better to have something of a sliding scale to progress that isn't so easily trackable, and give people more rewards in terms of nonlinear progression. That way people have things to work towards, but it's not perceived as vital like leveling up and running raids over and over for gear is. That way the focus of the player isn't on what they want to 'get' so much as what they want to 'do' again.
Or that's the problem in a nutshell. MMOs have a bad habit of not having good implementation of 'getting' things and 'doing' things that result in people's pretty much undivided attention on the light at the end of the tunnel rather than what's around them.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
You are quoting me out of context I said a game is considered a Grind by those who don't enjoy the journey. See the first line of the first post I made to start this thread. "The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination." It is an emperical truth that a chair is a chair, not subject to opinion. That is the difference. Cheers -Other
The wikpedia def. says and/or rep/not fun. So, a grind can be FUN and Repetitive....I find that a good MMO has at least some FUN gring, fun to me atleast. I don't mind some fun grinding/conversation w/ some friends/guildies.
Now, a chair is only a chair if it is serving the purpose of having one sit on it. If a tv is set on a "chair", that chair is now a tv stand. If a "chair" is holding a door open, it is now a door stop. If a "chair" is being used to light a fire, it is now kindling.
If you sit on the roof of your car, isn't it now a chair?
The grind is not strictly associated with repeatedly killing mobs. "Daily quest grind" ring any bells?
I don't consider dailies a grind in games that I ENJOY playing. This goes back to the fact that the word "grind" has lost it's original meaning.
Grind USED TO MEAN.....killing the same mobs over and over and over, seemingly ENDLESSLY just to level. Period. Now people just randomly apply the term "grind" to anything they have to do in the game more than once that they PERSONALLY don't like.
You are quoting me out of context I said a game is considered a Grind by those who don't enjoy the journey. See the first line of the first post I made to start this thread. "The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination." It is an emperical truth that a chair is a chair, not subject to opinion. That is the difference. Cheers -Other
The wikpedia def. says and/or rep/not fun. So, a grind can be FUN and Repetitive....I find that a good MMO has at least some FUN gring, fun to me atleast. I don't mind some fun grinding/conversation w/ some friends/guildies.
Now, a chair is only a chair if it is serving the purpose of having one sit on it. If a tv is set on a "chair", that chair is now a tv stand. If a "chair" is holding a door open, it is now a door stop. If a "chair" is being used to light a fire, it is now kindling.
If you sit on the roof of your car, isn't it now a chair?
You make a great point of a multipurpose. I have fun grinding for 5 days straight, then I get a headache for all that leveling, but yeah, if you don't bite the bullet, the bullet will bite you and you'll just giveu p.
The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination. I really can't stand the term. What MMO's do all have are "Time Sinks". That is, afterall, the point, to retain subscriptions on a monthly basis by drawing them in to the game with things to do, goals to achieve, etc. Some games like WoW, allow one to soar through levels quickly, but required an insane time sink for raids, at least years back when I played. I hated that personally. Other games like Lineage ][, especially when initially released, was considered a huge "grind", because of how long it took to level and gain new skills. While I understood this, for "me", I didn't focus on levels. I loved just playing the game. It was amazing, and probably even more so now, although I haven't played in a year or so. It just seems to me that the term "Grind" is inappropriately used. Generally a game allows one to move through skills or levels fast and provides "time sinks" in other ways, or a game takes more time to progress in, and that is the "time sink. If a game is fun, the whole point is to have a time sink. Once the time sink is over, so is the game. Bottom line is one either likes a game, or doesn't. "Grind" is a misleading word, and in the manner some use it so freely to describe games they don't like, words like "whining" are used to categorize posts people make that others don't like. In the same way, both word are over-used hot buttom words and really mean nothing. -Other
I agree with you...
Grind, to most players, is the time taken to hix maxed level. Those players are looking all wrong at a game and should (IMO) get the first FPS and play there (and still they'll complain about gear, skills and the alike).
Since you play an MMORPG, you should be 'kept busy' in the game. Go from one quest to an other. Kill monsters along the way, and explore the world (and lore) around you. That's the aim of an MMORPG for me. Add some PvP along the way and I'm happe.
It comes to grinding, when you've done all quests for your level, and can't explore more than the area you're currently at. A good example is Twelve Sky 2. I was in the CB (and ditched it real fast), because you get only 1 or 2 quests on your level, and when they're done, you're not even halfway the level. You must kill monsters around to get to the next level and get an new single quest. If the XP from the monsters was high, then there's no problem, but the XP was so extremely low that after 1 hour, boredom was there...
Lineage II, as in your example, does have some grind... There are enough quests to take you from level to level, and with the new vitality system, you level even faster with the quests. Good thing in Lineage II is the huge amount of repeatable / ongoing quests (coins, gems, ore to name a few). You're free to keep doing them till you're bored, and when you get bored with one (too long in one area), you just hop to the other one.
In the mean time, your clan will do a siege, kill raids, have PvP, so you're always busy...
back to topic... Grind..? Used in a wrong way most often, then again, players should not focus on maxing out ASAP, because if that's your focus, then every MMO is a grind...
If we define "entertainment" as "the focus of the fixation of your attention", then we can conclude two things:
a) From the 5 pages of definition argumenta: You folks are entertained by discussing definitions
b) A grind cannot be non-entertaining by the above definition. If you are experiencing it, you are entertained.
Note well that "entertainment" as defined above has nothing to do with "fun". This brings me to my clarification.
The real problem with most MMORPGs today is can be summarized like this: Game designers are asked to design so X amount of hours will be spent to get to goal Y. This mindset is the single root cause of most of the problems players complain about, and it is completely unworkable. If that mindset is used or entertained (above definition) while designing a game, you get time sinks, imbalanced reward vs effort phenomena when people do things faster than devs expected, social cooperation to minimize time sinks (twinking, power levelling), and ultimately players perceiving this design goal at some level and being disenfranchised.
If devs want people to spend time on their game, they have to make the game something someone would spend time on. The very attempt to sink time is perceivable and causes a negative reaction in most gamers when perceived. The word gamers have chosen for this is "grind".
If you contend "grind" is a subjective word, then the above is my definition. If you want to contend it is an objective word, then I submit the above as a clearer definition of the word.
As a digression, about designing games, Its a lot like the sax player who, before going professional, decides to go play on the street in some big city with his or her case open for tips and refuses to go professional till he or she can gather a crowd and make $100 in tips in an hour. Ideally, the game devs should have trouble making progress on their game because they are playing it too much. Creating a game takes a focus on fun, not a focus on time sinks. If you amortize your fun over time because your business people have demanded that you ensure that they have to play X hours to experience the entire game, you aren't focusing on fun.
Admittedly some people do like to repeat the same thing over and over again, as evidenced by the popularity of the "asian grind fest". I contend that the technology is almost there to create a world where many types of gamers (including the grinders) can have fun. It will take some time before the "get rich quick/make money fast" business people get far enough OUT of the industry before anyone will be able to undertake such an effort and be at low enough risk from financial hijacking that they actually might finish.
Time for a wrench and a clarification. If we define "entertainment" as "the focus of the fixation of your attention", then we can conclude two things: a) From the 5 pages of definition argumenta: You folks are entertained by discussing definitions b) A grind cannot be non-entertaining by the above definition. If you are experiencing it, you are entertained. Note well that "entertainment" as defined above has nothing to do with "fun". This brings me to my clarification. The real problem with most MMORPGs today is can be summarized like this: Game designers are asked to design so X amount of hours will be spent to get to goal Y. This mindset is the single root cause of most of the problems players complain about, and it is completely unworkable. If that mindset is used or entertained (above definition) while designing a game, you get time sinks, imbalanced reward vs effort phenomena when people do things faster than devs expected, social cooperation to minimize time sinks (twinking, power levelling), and ultimately players perceiving this design goal at some level and being disenfranchised. If devs want people to spend time on their game, they have to make the game something someone would spend time on. The very attempt to sink time is perceivable and causes a negative reaction in most gamers when perceived. The word gamers have chosen for this is "grind". If you contend "grind" is a subjective word, then the above is my definition. If you want to contend it is an objective word, then I submit the above as a clearer definition of the word. As a digression, about designing games, Its a lot like the sax player who, before going professional, decides to go play on the street in some big city with his or her case open for tips and refuses to go professional till he or she can gather a crowd and make $100 in tips in an hour. Ideally, the game devs should have trouble making progress on their game because they are playing it too much. Creating a game takes a focus on fun, not a focus on time sinks. If you amortize your fun over time because your business people have demanded that you ensure that they have to play X hours to experience the entire game, you aren't focusing on fun. Admittedly some people do like to repeat the same thing over and over again, as evidenced by the popularity of the "asian grind fest". I contend that the technology is almost there to create a world where many types of gamers (including the grinders) can have fun. It will take some time before the "get rich quick/make money fast" business people get far enough OUT of the industry before anyone will be able to undertake such an effort and be at low enough risk from financial hijacking that they actually might finish.
While I appreciate your explaination and such, all you have done is repeat what has been said over and over again in threads of this nature. The word "grind" is both objective and subjective based on how/who is using it. I stand by my belief that the word "grind", like many others, is overused.
Originally posted by kiddyno071 While I appreciate your explaination and such, all you have done is repeat what has been said over and over again in threads of this nature. The word "grind" is both objective and subjective based on how/who is using it. I stand by my belief that the word "grind", like many others, is overused.
I'm sure these ideas have been said over and over again, I've never seen this myself but I don't spend a whole lot of time looking either. I'm not sure why that is relevant; is there some desire to always see original posting content? Are you refering to the "grind" of reading the same ideas over and over?
As far as any contention of an overused word...is the purpose of communication to see how many different words one can use so as to not step on any standards of orginality that may or may not be present? Perhaps instead of focusing on the word, you might consider asking people to clarify what they mean when they say "grind". This, of course, does not apply if postings are some sort of art form to you rather than communication vehicles.
Originally posted by kiddyno071 While I appreciate your explaination and such, all you have done is repeat what has been said over and over again in threads of this nature. The word "grind" is both objective and subjective based on how/who is using it. I stand by my belief that the word "grind", like many others, is overused.
I'm sure these ideas have been said over and over again, I've never seen this myself but I don't spend a whole lot of time looking either. I'm not sure why that is relevant; is there some desire to always see original posting content? Are you refering to the "grind" of reading the same ideas over and over?
As far as any contention of an overused word...is the purpose of communication to see how many different words one can use so as to not step on any standards of orginality that may or may not be present? Perhaps instead of focusing on the word, you might consider asking people to clarify what they mean when they say "grind". This, of course, does not apply if postings are some sort of art form to you rather than communication vehicles.
Yes and yes, if you were to read my full post you would see that I speak to the use of the word "grind" in both subjective and objective depending on someone’s point of view. As I feel that there are many post of this nature I choose not to "beat a dead horse". I will, however, expand on my last statement and explain my rational behind it. I feel that words like "grind", "time sink", "care bear", "sandbox", etc are words that are overused... and when words are overused they begin to lose the spirit of their true origin and meaning; which in turn leads to an evolution, as I have seen, to the negative. Case in point, "grind", from what I have seen many a reader immediately takes it to mean mindless repetitive actions and they in turn use this as a reason to not engage in meaningful forums discussion, but to "flame a game". And while I would agree that there are games that fall into this category I would challenge folks to look differently at the word "grind" and its use to mean much more.
Comments
Wish to know how to eliminate grind? Make the game fun from start to finish. Only game I ever played online that was like that was Planetside. Unfortunately I serious doubt I'll ever see or play another game that was as fun as that game was. OMG I couldn't wait to play it. There was 0 - nada - zilch - no grind in that game for me. From day one until I quit that game was fun. I only stopped playing because a lot of my friends stopped playing and the lack of support for the game from SOE. Planetside was an awesome game!
I would love to see another Planetside based game.
I think an MMORPG based on Age of Empires or Age of Mythology game play mixed with Mount and Blade type level progression and combat machenics would make a killer MMORPG. I look forward to the day when someone puts one like that together. ^_^
Wish to know how to eliminate grind? Make the game fun from start to finish. Only game I ever played online that was like that was Planetside. Unfortunately I serious doubt I'll ever see or play another game that was as fun as that game was. OMG I couldn't wait to play it. There was 0 - nada - zilch - no grind in that game for me. From day one until I quit that game was fun. I only stopped playing because a lot of my friends stopped playing and the lack of support for the game from SOE. Planetside was an awesome game!
I would love to see another Planetside based game.
I think an MMORPG based on Age of Empires or Age of Mythology game play mixed with Mount and Blade type level progression and combat machenics would make a killer MMORPG. I look forward to the day when someone puts one like that together. ^_^
Yes! I loved Planetside, was truly a great game. Loved the atv. Sadly, left for the same reasons too.
I think you missunderstand me. I am saying it is NOT and CANNOT be a paradox, as I gave an example of what being a paradox is.
However I agree with the term "grind" is subjective as it varies from people to people what they find is a repetetive task. I find killing AI mobs to be repetetive, also killing player mobs to be repeteive and same with quests. So for me all of those are a grind.
However I do find killing players to be enjoyable but that does not stop it from becoming a grind if I have to repeat it 1000 times to gain some benefit. So I don't think grinding is neccessary a bad thing but it is mostly subjective yes. (but not a paradox which is something completely different).
I think we had our lines crossed! Well mine were anyway.. I did initially say 'grind' wasn't a paradox and it was subjective. So basically we agree with each other
I'm off to give my brain a rest..
Defining the word grind might be a grind in itself. However, be careful not to get stuck into a single definition. They tend to narrow the spirit.
Besides, for those who are looking for a definition outside of the inter-subjectivity realm, i wish you good luck. In essence, grind relates to the subjects experience of what is hard and tedious.
A similar situation happened when Tim Ferris published his book. He called work only "the stuff that you do for financial needs and that you would do less of (if you could)". He was critized alot on this particular concept.
Anyways, i encourage this philosophical discussion about the concept "grind"
By the way, the concept of grind is certainly not a paradox. A paradox implies, within a represtation (or system or construct) a contradiction within its own structure. So, the concept of grind has no contradiction within itself. Thus, the concept of grind is not a paradox.
Keywords, For those who are interested :
Inter-Subjectivity Espistemology : Constructivism
Reality outside of subject Epistemology : Positivism (objectivism)
No model is ever right : Schizoanalysis
Thank you Seen_Justice. Exactly.
Yamota - If you don't relate to my reference of Paradox, no problems, but you are being a bit anal about it. What I meant is simple.
paradox
One entry found.
Main Entry:par·a·dox
Pronunciation:?per-?-?däks, ?pa-r?-
Function:noun
Etymology:Latin paradoxum, from Greek paradoxon, from neuter of paradoxos contrary to expectation, from para- + dokein to think, seem — more at decent
Date:1540
1: a tenet contrary to received opinion
2 a: a statement that is seemingly contradictory or opposed to common sense and yet is perhaps true b: a self-contradictory statement that at first seems true c: an argument that apparently derives self-contradictory conclusions by valid deduction from acceptable premises
3: one (as a person, situation, or action) having seemingly contradictory qualities or phases
If you read what I underlined and bolded above, you will understand why I find calling a game a grind is a paradox. It is a paradox because it is only defined as a grind by players that believe it is, as if that's an emperical truth, when in fact, it is not emperical truth at all. One persons grind is another persons enjoyable game.
Just because our often dysfunctional Internet gaming community accepts the word "Grind", doesn't make it valid, any more than one who would describe my post as "whining". Obviously I'm not whining, but some may either experience me as doing so, or merely use the word to insult me, in the same manner the subjective term of "grind" is placed on games to insult them. It would be far more accurate for a person who finds a game a grind, to simply say they aren't enjoying the journey. That says the same thing, but not a manner that categorizes a game in a way that is only true because, well, because they don't enjoy the journey. lol
-Other
As you said, a grind is only defined as a grind by players that believe it is.
A chair is also only a chair by the people who believe it is a chair.
Hence, you are right, the representations are made and shared by the community who revolves around the concept.
But, dont forget that players who don't believe it is a grind also have an impact on the definition of the concept. They also revolve around the concept (us?). This is where the beauty is, inter-subjectivity, constructivism, nothing is true until accepted by the subjective experience of others. (not in science, see positivism)
Anyways, i still don't see why the concept is a paradox, because the concept of "grind" doesn't appear to derive self-contradictory conclusions by "valid" (what are these?) deductions from acceptable premises (what are those?).
In my mind, a concept such as grind cannot be refered as a paradox.
You are quoting me out of context I said a game is considered a Grind by those who don't enjoy the journey. See the first line of the first post I made to start this thread.
"The only time a game can be considered a "Grind", is if one is not enjoying playing it, or not able or willing, to try and enjoy the journey, but are focused on some imagined, or not, destination."
It is an emperical truth that a chair is a chair, not subject to opinion.
That is the difference.
Cheers -Other
I totally agree with that. In fact, i found the first lines of your thread well written and thought out. Much respect to your written thoughs.
Not so sure about whats emperical about a chair being a chair. Because a "chair" can also be a "place to sit" or a "stereo holder" (in my case). That kind of posture, btw, is soooo "schizo"
how do i delete this one?
This is sad, I LOVE grinding!!! NOW WHAT?!
LOL
@ Z - Using a "Chair" for whatever reason, doesn't change the fact it is a chair.
-Other
Your right about that my friend, but it doesn't change the fact that it is a "stereo holder" for me either.
In that sense, a concept is is always something and/or something else at the same time.
Cheers to that!
No. That is what the term "grind" means to us "old-timers." The newer generation of gamers has totally destroyed the original meaning of the word, much like the words "troll" and "fanboi" no longer have the same meaning as they once did. Many of the newer generation of gamers HATE questing (particularly READING quests) and consider questing to be a grind. Basically, the way I see it is....they want the constant action of an FPS, but they don't want to play FPS games any more....OR....they want ALL GAMES to be turned into FPS-like games. Pffft.
Anyway...you didn't ask to be my sounding board for bitching...sorry.
But I do agree with YOUR definition of "grind," it's just that we are RARE in holding that definition.
Also....I agree with the OP's post.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I don't consider dailies a grind in games that I ENJOY playing. This goes back to the fact that the word "grind" has lost it's original meaning.
Grind USED TO MEAN.....killing the same mobs over and over and over, seemingly ENDLESSLY just to level. Period. Now people just randomly apply the term "grind" to anything they have to do in the game more than once that they PERSONALLY don't like.
President of The Marvelously Meowhead Fan Club
I laugh every time i hear someone complain about grinds in MMO's. The more games cater to the instant gratification crowd the more people seem to cry about grinding in MMO's. I honestly think if a game came out of the box with a max lvl character some people would complain that they want two. The entire point of an MMO is to keep you playing it. If you complete all the content in a month whay would you resub? The lousy thing is that games have opted for forced time sinks like one week lockouts and such rather than make something difficult enough that you cant do it in a month. Most MMO's you can get to max lvl in a week if you try and know the ropes. My first MMO, EQ took me over 6 months and I played every day almost.
I think it's a waste of time to even have levels in games anymore; you level so fast its meaningless. The lower lvl zones go pretty much unused in most games now.
Grinding is repeating the same thing over and over. It is of course also a time sink if you prefer that term.
The reason for it is that devs are lazy and make boring repeative tasks and quests instead of inventing funnier things.
Kill 20 rats is a typical grind quest, or being forced to craft a lot of worthless things that you vendortrash so you can raise your crafting skill a little. The game can ofcourse also have most content at the end and forcing you to kill mobs in loads to level up so you can hit the good content.
I want to have fun, not do the same thing 300 times to raise something slightly, so I can do stuff like create something my character can use or whatever.
And just because I don't like grinding in a game doesn't mean that I don't like other parts of the game. It is like going on vacation, the travel in itself is often boring but the time there is fun. I like drinking Guiness but I don't like hangovers. I don't like all songs of my favorite musicians either.
As I see it, it is possible to make a MMO that is interesting just for the sake of playing it, Guildwars is doing this rather well, but not perfect. Cut out the boring parts and make stuff like crafting and quests fun, like in Neverwinter nights by Bioware, no grinding there and I played it for months anyways.
I dont want to repeat the same boring thing over and over, I already do that for 37 hours a week, it is called "work".
I've given up mostly on MMOs in the regard to grind/not grind and all the crap that gets flung about.
More specifically, I've just gotten bored of most of them.
How does this apply to the situation? Because you need to relate the situation, as all other things do, to the individuals it regards and the preferences they have. Grind has definitely changed in meaning to encompass many trivial aspects, that doesn't remove the fact that people are in fact complaining.
The problem in and of itself is how the time sinks are implemented. More often than not it's not an issue directly of what the task at hand is so much as how long it's taking to reach the end. This is a fault more of the desire than it is the task, and the solution isn't to simply throw the reward at people.
I personally think it'd be better to have something of a sliding scale to progress that isn't so easily trackable, and give people more rewards in terms of nonlinear progression. That way people have things to work towards, but it's not perceived as vital like leveling up and running raids over and over for gear is. That way the focus of the player isn't on what they want to 'get' so much as what they want to 'do' again.
Or that's the problem in a nutshell. MMOs have a bad habit of not having good implementation of 'getting' things and 'doing' things that result in people's pretty much undivided attention on the light at the end of the tunnel rather than what's around them.
"The knowledge of the theory of logic has no tendency whatever to make men good reasoners." - Thomas B. Macaulay
"The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel J. Boorstin
The wikpedia def. says and/or rep/not fun. So, a grind can be FUN and Repetitive....I find that a good MMO has at least some FUN gring, fun to me atleast. I don't mind some fun grinding/conversation w/ some friends/guildies.
Now, a chair is only a chair if it is serving the purpose of having one sit on it. If a tv is set on a "chair", that chair is now a tv stand. If a "chair" is holding a door open, it is now a door stop. If a "chair" is being used to light a fire, it is now kindling.
If you sit on the roof of your car, isn't it now a chair?
I don't consider dailies a grind in games that I ENJOY playing. This goes back to the fact that the word "grind" has lost it's original meaning.
Grind USED TO MEAN.....killing the same mobs over and over and over, seemingly ENDLESSLY just to level. Period. Now people just randomly apply the term "grind" to anything they have to do in the game more than once that they PERSONALLY don't like.
QFT!!!!
The wikpedia def. says and/or rep/not fun. So, a grind can be FUN and Repetitive....I find that a good MMO has at least some FUN gring, fun to me atleast. I don't mind some fun grinding/conversation w/ some friends/guildies.
Now, a chair is only a chair if it is serving the purpose of having one sit on it. If a tv is set on a "chair", that chair is now a tv stand. If a "chair" is holding a door open, it is now a door stop. If a "chair" is being used to light a fire, it is now kindling.
If you sit on the roof of your car, isn't it now a chair?
You make a great point of a multipurpose. I have fun grinding for 5 days straight, then I get a headache for all that leveling, but yeah, if you don't bite the bullet, the bullet will bite you and you'll just giveu p.
I agree with you...
Grind, to most players, is the time taken to hix maxed level. Those players are looking all wrong at a game and should (IMO) get the first FPS and play there (and still they'll complain about gear, skills and the alike).
Since you play an MMORPG, you should be 'kept busy' in the game. Go from one quest to an other. Kill monsters along the way, and explore the world (and lore) around you. That's the aim of an MMORPG for me. Add some PvP along the way and I'm happe.
It comes to grinding, when you've done all quests for your level, and can't explore more than the area you're currently at. A good example is Twelve Sky 2. I was in the CB (and ditched it real fast), because you get only 1 or 2 quests on your level, and when they're done, you're not even halfway the level. You must kill monsters around to get to the next level and get an new single quest. If the XP from the monsters was high, then there's no problem, but the XP was so extremely low that after 1 hour, boredom was there...
Lineage II, as in your example, does have some grind... There are enough quests to take you from level to level, and with the new vitality system, you level even faster with the quests. Good thing in Lineage II is the huge amount of repeatable / ongoing quests (coins, gems, ore to name a few). You're free to keep doing them till you're bored, and when you get bored with one (too long in one area), you just hop to the other one.
In the mean time, your clan will do a siege, kill raids, have PvP, so you're always busy...
back to topic... Grind..? Used in a wrong way most often, then again, players should not focus on maxing out ASAP, because if that's your focus, then every MMO is a grind...
Time for a wrench and a clarification.
If we define "entertainment" as "the focus of the fixation of your attention", then we can conclude two things:
a) From the 5 pages of definition argumenta: You folks are entertained by discussing definitions
b) A grind cannot be non-entertaining by the above definition. If you are experiencing it, you are entertained.
Note well that "entertainment" as defined above has nothing to do with "fun". This brings me to my clarification.
The real problem with most MMORPGs today is can be summarized like this: Game designers are asked to design so X amount of hours will be spent to get to goal Y. This mindset is the single root cause of most of the problems players complain about, and it is completely unworkable. If that mindset is used or entertained (above definition) while designing a game, you get time sinks, imbalanced reward vs effort phenomena when people do things faster than devs expected, social cooperation to minimize time sinks (twinking, power levelling), and ultimately players perceiving this design goal at some level and being disenfranchised.
If devs want people to spend time on their game, they have to make the game something someone would spend time on. The very attempt to sink time is perceivable and causes a negative reaction in most gamers when perceived. The word gamers have chosen for this is "grind".
If you contend "grind" is a subjective word, then the above is my definition. If you want to contend it is an objective word, then I submit the above as a clearer definition of the word.
As a digression, about designing games, Its a lot like the sax player who, before going professional, decides to go play on the street in some big city with his or her case open for tips and refuses to go professional till he or she can gather a crowd and make $100 in tips in an hour. Ideally, the game devs should have trouble making progress on their game because they are playing it too much. Creating a game takes a focus on fun, not a focus on time sinks. If you amortize your fun over time because your business people have demanded that you ensure that they have to play X hours to experience the entire game, you aren't focusing on fun.
Admittedly some people do like to repeat the same thing over and over again, as evidenced by the popularity of the "asian grind fest". I contend that the technology is almost there to create a world where many types of gamers (including the grinders) can have fun. It will take some time before the "get rich quick/make money fast" business people get far enough OUT of the industry before anyone will be able to undertake such an effort and be at low enough risk from financial hijacking that they actually might finish.
While I appreciate your explaination and such, all you have done is repeat what has been said over and over again in threads of this nature. The word "grind" is both objective and subjective based on how/who is using it. I stand by my belief that the word "grind", like many others, is overused.
I'm sure these ideas have been said over and over again, I've never seen this myself but I don't spend a whole lot of time looking either. I'm not sure why that is relevant; is there some desire to always see original posting content? Are you refering to the "grind" of reading the same ideas over and over?
As far as any contention of an overused word...is the purpose of communication to see how many different words one can use so as to not step on any standards of orginality that may or may not be present? Perhaps instead of focusing on the word, you might consider asking people to clarify what they mean when they say "grind". This, of course, does not apply if postings are some sort of art form to you rather than communication vehicles.
I'm sure these ideas have been said over and over again, I've never seen this myself but I don't spend a whole lot of time looking either. I'm not sure why that is relevant; is there some desire to always see original posting content? Are you refering to the "grind" of reading the same ideas over and over?
As far as any contention of an overused word...is the purpose of communication to see how many different words one can use so as to not step on any standards of orginality that may or may not be present? Perhaps instead of focusing on the word, you might consider asking people to clarify what they mean when they say "grind". This, of course, does not apply if postings are some sort of art form to you rather than communication vehicles.
Yes and yes, if you were to read my full post you would see that I speak to the use of the word "grind" in both subjective and objective depending on someone’s point of view. As I feel that there are many post of this nature I choose not to "beat a dead horse". I will, however, expand on my last statement and explain my rational behind it. I feel that words like "grind", "time sink", "care bear", "sandbox", etc are words that are overused... and when words are overused they begin to lose the spirit of their true origin and meaning; which in turn leads to an evolution, as I have seen, to the negative. Case in point, "grind", from what I have seen many a reader immediately takes it to mean mindless repetitive actions and they in turn use this as a reason to not engage in meaningful forums discussion, but to "flame a game". And while I would agree that there are games that fall into this category I would challenge folks to look differently at the word "grind" and its use to mean much more.
Oh, btw anything I write is art (in my own mind)