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General: Lessons From The Virtual Felt
Dana
Member Posts: 2,415
In this Monday's edition of The Free Zone, Richard Aihoshi looks at the online poker genre and what some MMOs can or have learned from it. Specifically, free to play ones.
As gamers, we tend to forget there are millions of computers we would consider obsolete that still serve other people's needs quite adequately. If the users of such elderly hardware want to play online poker, they can. It's very easy to knock the sites for not having even current-generation graphics, never mind advanced. In fact, few are even 3D. What they are is as accessible as possible so anyone who wants to play can.
How does this relate to F2Ps? Well, do all of the millions who play them have gamer-quality PCs? When people decide to try MMOGs for the first time, will they upgrade in order to run the latest hot release, or will they simply try something that the PCs they have will handle?
Read it all here.
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Comments
I can't believe I've just seen a comparison between playing online poker and F2P MMOs.
I dream with the day MMOs will be graphically comparable to current single-player RPGs and FPSs, and yes I know it's not financially viable for a MMO currently. However they could just do just work better on the graphical options for a low-end computer, and then for a very high-end computer (Crysis anyone? And remember it was released a few years ago and still is has one of the most impressive looking graphics of nowadays, if not the best one).
Now, games being F2P aren't really an excuse to not offer high-end graphical options, or what? Not a good gameplay, not good graphics, low budget, we really just pay for the virtual items from the mall within the game - that endless sink that can generate even more income than a P2P game, without offering not even close to the same content quality, just virtual goods. Exceptions are too few currently compared to how many F2P games there are, so I stick with this viewpoint.
I get your point Dana,
Its still Apples to Oranges..., however. I do see how F2P is a possible method to develope for a P2P, like DDO, to try to break the hold WOW has on the market. Free samples can't hurt.
This is Richard's column, not mine. Just editing today!
Dana Massey
Formerly of MMORPG.com
Currently Lead Designer for Bit Trap Studios
Why not? There are probably more online poker players than MMOers. So why not look at where they succeed?
Graphics are easy enough to scale down but you still have the costs from building the highend starting point. But this wasn't really even about graphics, other than describing it's effect to limit potential players. The second part is IMO more important: allowing very short play sessions to be meaningful.
Even within the F2P circles, a 1/2hr session is pretty worthless. How often is it worth it to log into your chosen game if you only have 5-10 minutes? For poker its enough, but if your playing anything else odds are you're loading solitare. MMOs are built for long sessions. That doesn't have to be. You can (and people frequently do) play poker for 6-8 hours at a time, but the time commitment in online poker is a single hand. In that single hand you could go up or down a fair amount, there's nothing like it in MMOs.
So I log in to a MMOG for 15 minutes with an older rig.
What do you propose I be able to do other than chat or check the status of inventory, bank or exchange prices?
Maybe MMOs should incorporate some kind of Facebook / Twitter access from within the game for these brief visits, every other e-media outlet seems to be doing that.
Tweets from Ironforge, yay.
F2P, P2P, same difference. The whole MMORPG world needs to think outside the box. Every time a completely different idea flies out of the box, the mmog community shunns it, yet they complain about the limited ideas and freedom within the games they play now. Really look at these games and features that are out now. Its all the same, with minor differences.
I don't like poker either though, unless I'm drunk.
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
Euripides (484 BC - 406 BC)
What can you do in 15 minutes? Nothing under most current designs, and thats the point. Then again even a 1/2 hour is limited to grinding/farming often times.
What could you do? Set an order to be filled (a player generated quest, with persistant offer/turn in to a set amount), refill your own vendor/store or tweak a listing of your services. These aren't too far off the beaten path, actually I think some form of these do exist in existing games. Let's go nuts, you could manage your factory/workshop (auto production) , add security to your home/factory or if you have the permissions to your guild's assets (why not let people break in?). You could create a custom skill, and briefly test it before locking it in (why not player created skills from template?). Nothing I've listed here is totally unreasonable and if worked in properly IMO it would make for a pretty cool game. At all points what players do create more content for other players, going so far as to be able to train those custom skills from other players.
I continue to be baffled by the efforts of some to remake an entire genre into something that suits them better, rather than just accepting that not everyone can do everything.
I don't have the hours of time needed to play a good game of online chess, so lets rewrite chess so that I can meaningfully play it in 5 minute blocks. I can't commit to watching a TV show for a whole hour, so let's reduce it to 3 minute snippets that I can watch throughout the day...
Get over it, some games require more time to play than others and simply cannot be reduced to tiny, convenience sized packets so the busy masses can play them - or at least not without destroying the game. Players need to get a clue and not play games which are fundamentally unsuited to their playtimes/availability.
I think a better comparison is..
Gambling is addictive
MMOs are addictive
How can we make MMOs as addictive as gambling to ensure we make as much money as possible?
Don't really agree with that though, but it is obvious why online poker has more players than MMOs.
I regard any Multiplayer games as being a MMO.. tho this is crude but if we see in open mind we can say that POKER is the fastest growing MMO out there.... When ppl are interacting and playing a game online with their computers then its qualifie to b an MMo,,, lol
i agree that the industry should cater t the "Quick play-No time" audiences.. BUT BUT BUT
i dont see a reson why the existing MMo shouldnt cater to their audiences for more graphics.... in the end POKER is not REAL fun for a hardcore gamer.. where as POKER is fun for a partimer and not the ultra BIG MMO cos he has t learn from scratch.. why.... Why not play what he knows...
In the end i think that beyond a cetain point games cant grow in customer base... the loose somewhere cos everything isnt perfect
I don't actively play PWI any longer (may in the future, may not) but I do make sure I'm logged in constantly with the client running on my older computer to manage my cat-shop (my in-game store). I buy, sell, restock the sell panel from the bought items, etc... all in a few minutes a day. Perfect World is the only mmo I've seen so far that allows persistant connections, which means I don't have to constantly login or do anything to keep that shop going. In the meantime, that shop profits about 500K in-game coins a week (I could do more, but that'd mean more active participation).
In that respect, even though I don't much enjoy PW's other game-play aspects, the game is still of interest to me. Heck, when I earn enough at the shop, I might even start playing again since I'd be able to afford a number of items to make play at least a little bit fun (for a while... after level 60, PW is a grind-fest in Asian tradition).
While I wouldn't consider PW a high-end game, it's still more demanding graphically than on-line poker. But unlike any of the high-end games I've tried, it does allow at least some kind of rewarding experience for those players with low-end systems. In other words, despite how I like to actually play other games more, PW still offers me a reason to keep connected, and offers an enticement to return that is born of my own efforts... which is much more likely to cause a return than expansions or additions to their cash shop.
In this respect, PW has learned (or at least emulated) the paradigim of on-line poker: easy to play, very little attention needed, steadily shown results. Unlike on-line poker, it doesn't cost me any potential loss to keep that store going.
Granted, in-game stores aren't an answer to every game. But still, I'd think more game companies would realize just giving people something to do that doesn't take time measured in blocks of hours is a Good Thing.
-w
I understand what the author is trying to say, but I think his comparison of F2P MMO's and online poker fell flat on it's face. Poker is an extremely simplistic game, MMO's are not. Huge difference.
Then you have the fact that many of the F2P games have poorly written clients and can have higher machine requirements than many of the subscription games.
If the point Richard was trying to make was that these F2P games need to be creating clients that run on a broad range of computers, I completely agree. The sad fact is that many of the more popular F2P games have high requirement clients.
Why dont they have an mmo that incorporates gambling the currency you earn in the mmo? Will everyone hang out in the poker rooms instead of playing the mmo? Oh wait, remember Leisure Suit Larrys online casino? That was very popular at the time but way too many cheats available in the game. What would be wrong with wow or eq or any mmo for that matter to have a gambling hall built into it. You do not have to gamble it would just be an option. Earn your gold and gamble with it. Remember Motor City Online and racing for money or even pink slips? That really Did get intense. Way more intense then having to respawn and lose nothing. Just wondering if anyone would like to have gambling put into an mmo?
So Sorry I meant to Delete this Post. I did not mean to duplicate Posts. I dont see delete here in edit screen and am late for work. Again I am sorry to post 2x.
This post is intentionally written as to not make any sense what so ever. Thank You Very Much.
Why not incorporate some gambling options in mmorpg's. Earn your gold or whatever and have a chance to gamble. Probably the most intense feeling I ever got from an mmo was Motor City Online and racing for money or pink slips. Anyway an mmo with a casino or poker room wouldnt hurt. Your not obligated to play. Its just an option. ARe people afraid everyone would gravitate to the casino and ignore all the hard work they put into the rest of the world? SWG had a little gambling thing in it. It was fun once in a while. Anyway just curious to see if others would like to see gambling allowed in mmorpg as an optional form of excitement? Remember you dont have to use it its just there like casinos are there in real life.
This post is intentionally written as to not make any sense what so ever. Thank You Very Much.
Many Asian MMOs have a lottery system in them, but I think most games in general shy away from gambling because of the asine laws in America around gambling, albeit if money or items with monetary value aren't involved its not really gambling under those laws.
The laws are still a major deterrant though.
Oh, ok I did not know that. I thought since its not real money..... But then again you have to be over 18 to play with fake money on the poker sites so that blows my theory. Thanks much.
This post is intentionally written as to not make any sense what so ever. Thank You Very Much.
Chess isn't a genre. There are other games of the same type Checkers, Backgammon, etc. As for the TV comment, I have a DVR. I watch what I want, when I want, and can cut it short at any time and continue whenever. I also have an internet connection which gives me access to millions of 3 minute snippets that I enjoy watching every once in a while.
That being said, I think there is more than enough room in the MMO genre to make games that don't require a shitload of time. Your thinking is backwards and selfish. Don't get me wrong, if I like a game I will play pretty hardcore, but there is always room for variety.
That kind of chess exists... Or is your "meaningfully" different from others that consider Bullet or Blitz chess "meaningful"?
Ah, yes. The old adage of "If I cannot see it, it cannot possibly be true."
-w
I've played plenty of speed chess, fast turns don't mean you play it in tiny snippets of time - but whatever. Any example has its flaws, but the concept isn't that hard to grasp. Anyone who has played long term board, card or other games and enjoyed them gets it.
Excellent attempt to flip this around btw, I have NO problem with games that can be played online in short time increments, there are LOTS of them out there and you are welcome to play them. Conventional MMORPGs however cannot be and that is what people like this are trying to argue in favor of changing.
You want a low impact, quick to play, short increment game - fine; play one. Stop trying to argue that Game XX has to cater to that audience and I won't care
This is what I don't get, why is it impossible to make a "conventional MMORPG" that allows you to do something worthwhile in a short session?
I think of several browser based games where the time commitment is anything from minutes a few times a week up to several hours a day. I'm sure you don't accept the various sport MMOs (Goal line Blitz, MMOBaseball or others) as "Conventional", but there is nothing keeping parts of their systems out of games you would consider "conventional". Quick =/= simple, stupid and easy. Just like having "quick play" options does not rule out those multi-hour instances for those that want it.
Puzzle Pirates (though not a 'current day graphics' game) lets you play poker and other (card) games with the in-game currency. Texas Hold' em; pot limit, no limit or some set limit (dunno what the name for that is).
Because the argument starts from a baseline of where we are now. Those arguing that MMOs need to let you do more in a short session are thus arguing that you have to be able to accomplish *more* than is presently possible.
So consider what *IS* possible in virtually any game out there right now in say a 15minute session.
Unless I am completely clueless, using the "bind" teleports and/or safe log out locations, I can be in some level appropriate hunting zone in less than 5minutes. I can then spend the remaining 10minutes doing a short quest or three; or just killing mobs solo. I have thus earned exp, gained loot and otherwise advanced my character a bit. Is that not already worthwile?
If you make that sort of activity even easier, even more rewarding or whatnot for the extremely casual player then how trivial have you made all similar content for someone with more time?
Reduce the time block down to 5 minutes (You know, less time than it takes me to check my email in mornings or make my cup of coffee on the way out the door to work) and guess what? You can *still* accomplish something in many games. Market watching/Auction House sales, short crafting sessions, a bit of skill training, heck even a kill or five solo if you logged in the right place or could rapid travel there.
That's where the state of the games is NOW and you want to be able to do more in those insignificant time blocks? Don't you grasp how utterly trivial that will make any activity you can do in those times to everyone else playing? Now I realize that what many are really complaining about is raiding/epic quests and the like taking muliple hours; but again, if that sort of thing can be knocked off in a 30minute session, how much is the rest of the playerbase (the ones with a more reasonable amount of time to commit) going to be howling about a "lack of content" and how trivial the game is? No game can be everything to everyone and the "traditional MMO" unquestionably includes an element of content gated by time commitment.
Now what I would like to see (and what many companies are striving for) is more inclusion of email/cell/blackberry technology that allows minor (but significant) game interactions while not actually logged in at a PC.
You are wrong. Poker is far more complex then most mmo's. It is easily one of the most complex games ever, if not the most complex game ever (poker and 3d chess are preety close, poker is more complex tho imho).
I agree with the rest of your post tho, just had to point this out
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You are wrong. Poker is far more complex then most mmo's. It is easily one of the most complex games ever, if not the most complex game ever (poker and 3d chess are preety close, poker is more complex tho imho).
I agree with the rest of your post tho, just had to point this out
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Sorry but a big LOL on poker.