never gets old lol....why does every thread have to have something about World of Warcraft in it, this is about SWTOR.. i don't care about WOW this and WOW that, these are threads for SW....it really does get old when you start reading a thread then about 4-6 posts into it, it somehow mysteriously change to all talk on WOW and its million subscribers....etc. i don't care lol so on to SWTOR, was never a die hard SW fan but love the movies and looks to be a fresh new look in the MMo world, the whole fantasy gig gets old after a while. i mean how many times can ya make an elf, dwarf, or human. bashin a few alien heads and jumpin on a bike might be nice
I'll tell you a secret. You don't have to like something to respect it. I repect the technical prowess required to make a nuclear weapon. That doesn't mean I want to make or use one. I don't want to even be near one of the hellish things. If you don't respect WoW's accomplishments, even if you don't like the game, your world view is too narrow.
Fantastic point Zymurgeist. I enjoy that viewpoint.
And to everyone else whom replied in some fashion, I appreciate all the feedback in this topic choice. I could not have gotten better responses from everyone. Thank you.
/discuss
Host of the Only Un-Official Star Wars The Old Republic Vodcast - www.youtube.com/user/uswtorv
The PvP was always there, better then any game before and even more solid to date... you cannot achieve a better PvE experience, true PvE experience than WoW.
Yeah? As far as I remember Wow had lousy PvP until 3 months after Guildwars released when they suddenly revamped PvP to the battleground system, stolen right out of GW.
Wow do have it's good points but even with the new system that Blizzard did not invent themselves, PvP is not Wows strong side.
As for a better PvE experience that is a matter of point. For me it just feels too easy to actually be fun, it was better in vanilla Wow but it never really been great for me.
So respect Wow? I do respect Blizzard, because they know their fans, made a MMO for them and got them to start playing MMOs. I also respect Strain (first boss on Wow, quited because he didn't like where wow where going) and Kaplan, great devs even if I think Wow would have been a lot better if Strain would have stayed instead of starting Arenanet.
But Wow in itself? Not really, not a bad game but overrated in my opinion.
I don't know if I would go so far as to make people respect any game, especially WoW. Games are games, even if they affect the genre differently. If you like it, play it.
WoW had three things going for it. First was the timing of its release. There were other games to play, for sure, but nothing exceptionally good. That's why, even with a horrid launch, server crashes, no battlegrounds, etc., people played and enjoyed WoW from the start. Second was the IP and the success of the previous RTS games. There were thousands of Warcraft fanatics who were hyped up and would've played WoW no matter what. Third was what Blizzard actually did, and this is what makes most gamers angry.
WoW wasn't revolutionary and Blizz was okay with that. What it did do, which is very smart, was take the best features of its predecessors, make them more accessible to the casual player, and wrap them in a convinient package. Then, of course, as the years passed, it kept its hardware more or less the same so that people can run it on a toaster if they wanted to. The problem with other companies trying to copy WoW is that its already been done, and if you try to use WoW as a springboard to implement some of your own unique (not revolutionary, because if you use that term, you're almost guaranteed failure to meet expectations), you need to have a very, very polished game. Why play _______ when it's like WoW, and WoW is already here, has been out for 5 years, and is packed with content?
Either way, WoW happened, and if it hadn't, another game, very similar, would've. It was only a matter of time. The problem with this genre is that two games created two different mindsets of what an MMORPG should be: UO first, and then WoW. Similar, but with enough differences to spawn terms such as "sandbox" or "themepark". This division in the MMO community has left the UO vets/sandboxers in the minority (though they certainly won't shut up!). If you want to blame WoW for that, you can, but just know that it would've happened anyway.
To the OP: Like I said, if Bioware is going to use WoW as an inspiration, they are going to have to do something different - something more than story - or else people won't bother. While Bioware doesn't have the time factor in their favor, they do have 2 of the 3 things WoW did - a popular, well-known IP (even more than Warcraft in 2004), and the knowledge of how WoW is successful (which WoW, of course, didn't have, but when it launched, Blizz knew why games like EQ were succesful). We might be seeing the first true WoW competitor in the works here - this, along with Aion, could form an MMO triumverate.
Pros: WoW did bring allot of attention to MMO's overall. Cons: WoW loving carebear goons may infect SWTOR.
Ya...I said it...
people really need to stop thinking that WoW is the basis of all MMO's and stop thinking that WoW did everything first.
the only reason that it is still so popular is that it's easy to play, and plays on pretty much any computer.
but revolutionary? i think not.
It would be stupid not to compare newer MMOs to WOW . It may not be everyone's cup of tea but its too powerful of a game to be denied. Its simple the newer games need the Fans to quit bashing WoW claiming its better, the proof is in the pudding, if its better the numbers will add up. When you bash WoW all you are really doing is bringing more and more attention to it, Instead gaming companies need to learn what it is that WoW did that made it so viral, and avoid advertising conflicts with a company that has more money than they do and force Blizzard to run anti-advertisments against them. You can't move a mountain by ramming cars into it....but you can go around and avoid it all together.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
I also played Shadowbane and have been waiting for some company to implement the ideas for Shadowbane into a modern game engine.
I can't agree with you in crowning a new king that hasn't hit maturity yet. I like the story driven idea, but for some MMO players the forced story choices may turn some people off. For god sakes blizzard had to add an option for speed text on quest. Time will tell, I want SWTOR to win big, but it's not time to consider crowning a new king.
"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's azz by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?" - Tommy Boy
WoW changed the MMORPG genre from a genre that was rather specific to a more mass-audience-suitable form. Unfortunately, in the process, it managed to change perception of the genre and its profitability to such a degree that the way MMORPGs were designed and played changed with it. Blizzard didnt reinvent the wheel, nope. Its just the effect of WoWs big success that changed a genre in a way that alienated its original playerbase, diluted it with tons of players who liked parts of it, but disliked others, and suddenly the entire industry preferably caters to this imaginary playerbase, and produces one bust after another. I can respect Blizzard for making WoW. I dont have to like the consequences of it. It DID pretty much wipe out the original MMORPG genre, replacing it with something else, and up to now, this niche didnt reform. Its just one fail after the other.
I fea that when TOR is finally released, peple will find WoW 'deep', 'complex' and 'open' by comparison.
WoW changed the MMORPG genre from a genre that was rather specific to a more mass-audience-suitable form. Unfortunately, in the process, it managed to change perception of the genre and its profitability to such a degree that the way MMORPGs were designed and played changed with it. Blizzard didnt reinvent the wheel, nope. Its just the effect of WoWs big success that changed a genre in a way that alienated its original playerbase, diluted it with tons of players who liked parts of it, but disliked others, and suddenly the entire industry preferably caters to this imaginary playerbase, and produces one bust after another. I can respect Blizzard for making WoW. I dont have to like the consequences of it. It DID pretty much wipe out the original MMORPG genre, replacing it with something else, and up to now, this niche didnt reform. Its just one fail after the other.
I fea that when TOR is finally released, peple will find WoW 'deep', 'complex' and 'open' by comparison.
Oh, that is guarenteed. I remember someone stating "Soon people will be claiming WoW is a sandbox", from which I laughed, and not a couple months later there were people on this forum claiming WoW was a sandbox game.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike Loved: Star Wars Galaxies Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
I don't respect WoW and I won't ever respect it. Its mmo's light and its crap. Not to mention the behavior of most of the players is despicable.I'll never play it again. Most people eventually leave the game for better games. The endless raiding is aggravating to say the best.
The only thing WoW did was take features of all the other games, dumb them down, and put them into the game.
If they make this game yet another carbon copy of WoW with different graphics, like every other new game recently released, I'm going to be severely pissed.
PLEASE NO MORE WOW, DEVS. PLEASE GIVE US SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
that last statement is SO ironic because WoW revitalized a game genre that was stank with repetition comprising of grinding, grinding and more grinding. You basically want another EQ where content sucks, leveling sucks, and PvP is just ganking. If TOR comes out like that itll sell well for a month then itll be DROPPED. Trust that.
Pros: WoW did bring allot of attention to MMO's overall. Cons: WoW loving carebear goons may infect SWTOR.
Ya...I said it...
people really need to stop thinking that WoW is the basis of all MMO's and stop thinking that WoW did everything first.
the only reason that it is still so popular is that it's easy to play, and plays on pretty much any computer.
but revolutionary? i think not.
That's not me buddy, I have never thought nor stated anything even remotely close to any of that shite!
With all the PVE and lack of PVP made the game=a sleeping pill for me. AI is so repetitive, predictable and available in way to many other games/MMO's. When I play an MMO I expect and want to be put up against other players the majority of the game not 1% of the game.
sorry, i forgot to put the "i agree" thingy after i quoted you heh, wasnt implying you said anytyhing like that, my bad
Pros: WoW did bring allot of attention to MMO's overall. Cons: WoW loving carebear goons may infect SWTOR.
Ya...I said it...
people really need to stop thinking that WoW is the basis of all MMO's and stop thinking that WoW did everything first.
the only reason that it is still so popular is that it's easy to play, and plays on pretty much any computer.
but revolutionary? i think not.
That's not me buddy, I have never thought nor stated anything even remotely close to any of that shite!
With all the PVE and lack of PVP made the game=a sleeping pill for me. AI is so repetitive, predictable and available in way to many other games/MMO's. When I play an MMO I expect and want to be put up against other players the majority of the game not 1% of the game.
sorry, i forgot to put the "i agree" thingy after i quoted you heh, wasnt implying you said anytyhing like that, my bad
Ahh, no worries but I was like "what the! <scratch head>"
Why this is in the SW:TOR forum I will not understand, 90% of the OP coments are based on WoW.
Its sad that everyone that auto hates WoW either never played the game, played it for 3 secs and hated a minor thing in the game example "Undead can heal themselves and it doesn't hurt? BLASPHOMY!" or lastly blames the community basis for the game as a whole.
The first reason just means your afraid of something that might change your perseption about MMOs, or your just willfully ignorant. The second states that you have no imagination beyond that of what you were told from old games/books.
The last part I want to dive into some more detail here since it is one that I have heard alot lately; You make a game that is very popular to a wide market and its an MMO, doesnt matter what type it is, now that you have this large fan basis you now have attracted alot of weirdos and mentally handicapped people. You don't wanna alienate these players cus their still footing the bill of your game, so what do you do...
Create an Ignore button, sadly those players that come to these forums and whine about players being mean to them generally state that they were not allowed to play with the big boys in raids once they hit max level because they didnt reseach, ever reach max level because no one would run though though Gnomer, or they got into too many fights on trade chanel and no one wanted to deal with you ever again.
Yea players are rude, so are people, games dont make people asshats, people make people asshats.
Why this is in the SW:TOR forum I will not understand, 90% of the OP coments are based on WoW.
Its sad that everyone that auto hates WoW either never played the game, played it for 3 secs and hated a minor thing in the game example "Undead can heal themselves and it doesn't hurt? BLASPHOMY!" or lastly blames the community basis for the game as a whole. The first reason just means your afraid of something that might change your perseption about MMOs, or your just willfully ignorant. The second states that you have no imagination beyond that of what you were told from old games/books. The last part I want to dive into some more detail here since it is one that I have heard alot lately; You make a game that is very popular to a wide market and its an MMO, doesnt matter what type it is, now that you have this large fan basis you now have attracted alot of weirdos and mentally handicapped people. You don't wanna alienate these players cus their still footing the bill of your game, so what do you do... Create an Ignore button, sadly those players that come to these forums and whine about players being mean to them generally state that they were not allowed to play with the big boys in raids once they hit max level because they didnt reseach, ever reach max level because no one would run though though Gnomer, or they got into too many fights on trade chanel and no one wanted to deal with you ever again. Yea players are rude, so are people, games dont make people asshats, people make people asshats.
Honey, I didn't play for just "three seconds". You can find out whether you'll like a game in the first free month, you know. I cancelled right before the month was over. It was a terrible game and the behavior of the many many many rude players was extremely despicable. I've played DAoC, CoH, SWG, EQ1, EQ2, Conan, Eve, LOTRO (beta'd that one, hubby currently has an account), PotBS, PotC (beta'd), WoW and I might be even missing a few in there.
Never have I ever seen a game so overrun by badly behaved people as I have WoW. At least once a week for the roughly three and a half weeks I played, I had someone harassing me in pm because I wouldn't pvp with them. And not just that one person either. They'd get all their buddies to harass me too. And they were all different people. On different servers. Not to mention the aggravation of the l337 on the main channels, the bad language, and worse. And then there's the fact that top level only means endless raiding because they have nothing else to offer and the devs are too lazy to bother with anything else.
I've never seen that behavior in any other game. Just WoW. So stop your defensive superiority complex, huh?
Why this is in the SW:TOR forum I will not understand, 90% of the OP coments are based on WoW.
It's not hard friend to notice it all loops around and brings it back to the core of what I am attempting to get at. Hell... you did reply, so I must have done something correct. And thanks btw, excellent reply.
And Moirae; in all MMORPGs you are going to get that type of persons... with WoW having the larger subscriber base, you'll run into that much more often it'll seem. Also seems you spread your mind to too many games.. imo, perhaps attempt to embrace "one" for all it's worth. I hope SW:TOR it will be. That was only an opinion by me however. I appreciate your post as well, thank you.
Host of the Only Un-Official Star Wars The Old Republic Vodcast - www.youtube.com/user/uswtorv
Why this is in the SW:TOR forum I will not understand, 90% of the OP coments are based on WoW.
Its sad that everyone that auto hates WoW either never played the game, played it for 3 secs and hated a minor thing in the game example "Undead can heal themselves and it doesn't hurt? BLASPHOMY!" or lastly blames the community basis for the game as a whole. The first reason just means your afraid of something that might change your perseption about MMOs, or your just willfully ignorant. The second states that you have no imagination beyond that of what you were told from old games/books. The last part I want to dive into some more detail here since it is one that I have heard alot lately; You make a game that is very popular to a wide market and its an MMO, doesnt matter what type it is, now that you have this large fan basis you now have attracted alot of weirdos and mentally handicapped people. You don't wanna alienate these players cus their still footing the bill of your game, so what do you do... Create an Ignore button, sadly those players that come to these forums and whine about players being mean to them generally state that they were not allowed to play with the big boys in raids once they hit max level because they didnt reseach, ever reach max level because no one would run though though Gnomer, or they got into too many fights on trade chanel and no one wanted to deal with you ever again. Yea players are rude, so are people, games dont make people asshats, people make people asshats.
Honey, I didn't play for just "three seconds". You can find out whether you'll like a game in the first free month, you know. I cancelled right before the month was over. It was a terrible game and the behavior of the many many many rude players was extremely despicable. I've played DAoC, CoH, SWG, EQ1, EQ2, Conan, Eve, LOTRO (beta'd that one, hubby currently has an account), PotBS, PotC (beta'd), WoW and I might be even missing a few in there.
Never have I ever seen a game so overrun by badly behaved people as I have WoW. At least once a week for the roughly three and a half weeks I played, I had someone harassing me in pm because I wouldn't pvp with them. And not just that one person either. They'd get all their buddies to harass me too. And they were all different people. On different servers. Not to mention the aggravation of the l337 on the main channels, the bad language, and worse. And then there's the fact that top level only means endless raiding because they have nothing else to offer and the devs are too lazy to bother with anything else.
I've never seen that behavior in any other game. Just WoW. So stop your defensive superiority complex, huh?
I agree with you Moirae, I have a long list of games I have played and beta etc. And as for WoW I have played it several times, I have friends who play it off and on as well, I had a guild there at launch.
Why this is in the SW:TOR forum I will not understand, 90% of the OP coments are based on WoW.
Its sad that everyone that auto hates WoW either never played the game, played it for 3 secs and hated a minor thing in the game example "Undead can heal themselves and it doesn't hurt? BLASPHOMY!" or lastly blames the community basis for the game as a whole. The first reason just means your afraid of something that might change your perseption about MMOs, or your just willfully ignorant. The second states that you have no imagination beyond that of what you were told from old games/books. The last part I want to dive into some more detail here since it is one that I have heard alot lately; You make a game that is very popular to a wide market and its an MMO, doesnt matter what type it is, now that you have this large fan basis you now have attracted alot of weirdos and mentally handicapped people. You don't wanna alienate these players cus their still footing the bill of your game, so what do you do... Create an Ignore button, sadly those players that come to these forums and whine about players being mean to them generally state that they were not allowed to play with the big boys in raids once they hit max level because they didnt reseach, ever reach max level because no one would run though though Gnomer, or they got into too many fights on trade chanel and no one wanted to deal with you ever again. Yea players are rude, so are people, games dont make people asshats, people make people asshats.
Honey, I didn't play for just "three seconds". You can find out whether you'll like a game in the first free month, you know. I cancelled right before the month was over. It was a terrible game and the behavior of the many many many rude players was extremely despicable. I've played DAoC, CoH, SWG, EQ1, EQ2, Conan, Eve, LOTRO (beta'd that one, hubby currently has an account), PotBS, PotC (beta'd), WoW and I might be even missing a few in there.
Never have I ever seen a game so overrun by badly behaved people as I have WoW. At least once a week for the roughly three and a half weeks I played, I had someone harassing me in pm because I wouldn't pvp with them. And not just that one person either. They'd get all their buddies to harass me too. And they were all different people. On different servers. Not to mention the aggravation of the l337 on the main channels, the bad language, and worse. And then there's the fact that top level only means endless raiding because they have nothing else to offer and the devs are too lazy to bother with anything else.
I've never seen that behavior in any other game. Just WoW. So stop your defensive superiority complex, huh?
While you have a point, I'd like a few things considered when it comes to community.
WoW has, arguably, one of the worst communities in the genre. I would like to say that is actually not entirely true. The truth is probably simply this: The more people you get, the more assholes you will have. You have bad behaviour in any game, some more some less, but you will find it anywhere. WoW has more bad behaviour (and I agree with this fully) because there are simply more people. On the other hand, immaturity and outright idiocy do seem to be a bit abundant there.
However, there are different sort of "bad" communities. I would like to put forward EVE as an example. Now I would like to say in my 3 years total I played EVE, I found the community in general to be pretty good. On the other hand, the community is also what made me quit the game. Because the community was/is too extreme for my tastes. When a game overreaches into RL, then that is a no-go for me (I am referring to RL spying for in-game purposes as an example).
I also played Aion on Chinese servers for a while and the general behaviour of people there was much much worse than what I had experienced in WoW. Kill-stealing, Mob-stealing, no help offering, no friendly heals, no buffings simply for the heck of it, no word of thanks when you did actually help someone else, blatant mob-training etc were all very regular there.
So, in closing, I'd like to say, yes, WoW is filled with a lot of people I'd rather not have anything to do with. That is however largely owned to the fact that there are so many goddamn people there. And secondary because it attracts a lot of players who have no concept of the -community- as people who have played MMO's since the old days have.
WoW is the King. You don’t have to like the King, you don’t have to play the King, but you do have to acknowledge the King because numbers don’t lie. To do anything else demonstrates ignorance of the genre.
WoW itself can be a simple game for a child to play … or it can be as complex as the min/max’ers can make it. Yes, they didn’t invent the genre but they put it on the map and kept it there. Even my first MMORPG (UO) couldn’t do that. The community is not that bad when you compare it the communities of bottom-feeders playing games that have FFA PvP like AC1 DT or the AoC PvP servers. Go there if you want to see the worst in people who play games. They are fun for a diversion, but pale in comparison to games that offer true battles where skill is number one.
I’ve always been a little suspicious of people who choose class based games for their PvP fix anyway, instead of games that offer level playing fields but to each their own. Personally, when I run across a hardcore PvP’er who proclaims their uberness in these games, proclaiming anyone who disagrees with them carebears, I tend to ignore whatever they post or say. Far to narrow-minded for me. Either way, WoW’s community is tame compared to games with FFA PvP servers and the huge egos of those that feed there.
I’m not going to pretend to know why WoW succeeded where others have failed. I’m not an insider nor am I gifted with omnipotence. TOR seems to have a lot of plusses going for it from the developer to the IP. If they can figure out why the total WoW package works then more power to them. I wish them luck because the number of MMORPG’s that have truly made it since WoW’s release are few and far between, no matter the company, IP or the hype.
WoW is the King. You don’t have to like the King, you don’t have to play the King, but you do have to acknowledge the King because numbers don’t lie. To do anything else demonstrates ignorance of the genre.
WoW itself can be a simple game for a child to play … or it can be as complex as the min/max’ers can make it. Yes, they didn’t invent the genre but they put it on the map and kept it there. Even my first MMORPG (UO) couldn’t do that. The community is not that bad when you compare it the communities of bottom-feeders playing games that have FFA PvP like AC1 DT or the AoC PvP servers. Go there if you want to see the worst in people who play games. They are fun for a diversion, but pale in comparison to games that offer true battles where skill is number one.
I’ve always been a little suspicious of people who choose class based games for their PvP fix anyway, instead of games that offer level playing fields but to each their own. Personally, when I run across a hardcore PvP’er who proclaims their uberness in these games, proclaiming anyone who disagrees with them carebears, I tend to ignore whatever they post or say. Far to narrow-minded for me. Either way, WoW’s community is tame compared to games with FFA PvP servers and the huge egos of those that feed there.
I’m not going to pretend to know why WoW succeeded where others have failed. I’m not an insider nor am I gifted with omnipotence. TOR seems to have a lot of plusses going for it from the developer to the IP. If they can figure out why the total WoW package works then more power to them. I wish them luck because the number of MMORPG’s that have truly made it since WoW’s release are few and far between, no matter the company, IP or the hype.
I can tell you why WoW succeeded in getting a large portion of the MMO community and you hinted on one of the reasons. “WoW itself can be a simple game for a child to play” . And it is on that note...you have tons of kids playing it and tons of people who are slow(Bluntly put). And it is also the reason it doesn't appeal to the minority of people who are in the top end of gaming. The pro's if you will of gaming, and yes this is a minority as with anything from pro poker to pro football. Basically people who are faster, smarter and more creative...this is not the vast majority in any genre.
As for me, I am basically a good and fair person and I'm fast and smart...I have been good at just about anything I do. I also love a challenge and I go into those FFA/PVP games but I don't gank lowbies and I'm not an a$$hat persay...I will and can be an a$$hat to those who do gank lowbies and who are a$$hats for no good reason and I will help others who have problems with those types and I'm not the only one like this...there are plenty like me as well. So even in those games there is balance and balance can be had if looked for and you have the ability to recognize things.
So for anyone who blanket states that all who play WoW are kids is wrong and the same goes for those who blanket state that a FFA/PVP game is nothing but a$$hat gankers.
I don't think wow is so popular because it is simple, not saying that it isn't but the main reason it is successful is because it manages to cater and keep everybody busy, they toned down the raids so more people can access them, they don't have prerequisites for any instance and the give elite rewards, not even talking about gear, the little status things that people really want and are willing to spend many hours grinding to get it. Mounts, pets, that funny looking hat or that horrible tabard that only 2 people in the server has.
In short, WoW caters to a really broad audience and that is what makes it successful. In that note, we have to realize that the primary reasons for companies to design games is to make money and they analyze everything in the industry to try to come up with the best formula in a game to do just that, make money.
Let’s not forget that any company will very easily alienate the relatively small number of hardcore gamers if they can attract 10 times as many casual ones.
I don't think wow is so popular because it is simple, not saying that it isn't but the main reason it is successful is because it manages to cater and keep everybody busy, they toned down the raids so more people can access them, they don't have prerequisites for any instance and the give elite rewards, not even talking about gear, the little status things that people really want and are willing to spend many hours grinding to get it. Mounts, pets, that funny looking hat or that horrible tabard that only 2 people in the server has. In short, WoW caters to a really broad audience and that is what makes it successful. In that note, we have to realize that the primary reasons for companies to design games is to make money and they analyze everything in the industry to try to come up with the best formula in a game to do just that, make money.
Let’s not forget that any company will very easily alienate the relatively small number of hardcore gamers if they can attract 10 times as many casual ones.
Your equation doesn't explain the gamers like me and I know I speak for many because I have gamed with them in MMO's for years and still do today and I see their posts and opinions all over the place. WoW not only did not keep me busy it bored the hell out of me.
Your also wrong about companies, while it may be true for “most” companies who “JUST” want to make money, there are other companies who have some style and vision that want and will bring a change of flavor to the mix. Take the motorcycle companies for instance...Harley Davison does not alienate the small numbers it provides for (compared to Honda, Suzuki, etc) it provides for a minority of people who like that style and it does quite well. This same analogy can be applied in many other areas.
And if a game comes along that is more sandbox, pvp ran world, player cities, in depth crafting...in a nutshell a more complex code I would pay more for it and so would many others who would be willing to pay more for a custom non mainstream bike.
Basically WOW was in a way at the same time the best and the worst thing that happened to the MMO genre.
It was the best in that way, that it destroyed some age old hardcore MMO conventions, which just were tailor made for a very few people only. Downtimes. I recall coming from EQ2 and saw that Boss Mob "Hogger" killed in WOW, and I thought, damn now I have to camp for hours; when he respawned 1 min later, I cried tears of joy! This is just one of many examples. People do not want to wait for the fun or seek the fun. In that WOW paved the way which gladly can not be returned. I found the EQ1 and UO way of doing stuff only overly complicated and time consuming. Sitting down in EQ1 and waiting for Mana to regen, doing NOTHING, was not fun or challanging, it was merely boring.
But all in all today the bad feels to weigh greater.
It is the addiction circle. Essentially WOW is a sort of extension of the Diablio-principle. It is centered by and large around one simple idea: the greed for larger and better gear. The obstacles they put into the way to get those are not fun, they are work, the most dull hamster wheel possible.
Faction grind. I mean, every MMO had that, but the sheer amount of faction grind in WOW is insane. Then you have daily quests, raid dungeons, PVE gear sets, PVP gear sets. And ALL of them require you to repeat the same things OVER and OVER and OVER. Added the devious "inspect" you incite the greed and envy further. Many people in WOW are as a result totally fixated on only allowing the perfect fitting char. WOW gamers don't just look for "a healer" or "a tank.". Oh no! A WOW gamer looks for "a healer of class X, with skill tree Y, doing crit Z, equipped with type A gear". No joke. When a friend of mine ran around with a new axe he had used runes on, instead of... well I dont know what, some other procedure, he instantly got tells, explaining him that this way inferior to procedure X of applying stuff on the weapon. Or that his Pally with skill tree whatever was not rightly skilled to come along. All that stuff. It is elitarian now to no avail!
Esp. the faction and raid grind is terrible now. There are uber-mega-hyper items for PVE and seperated for PVP, then uber rare mounts, and you know you can never attain anything of that with any normal playstyle. Those stories are not from WOW haters! I hear them from WOW vets, who play it out of lack of alternative, as they say, and because their guildies are there. People of whom some are unemployed and STILL they tell me it is nigh impossible to get all that high end uber stuff! People who are so addicted to WOW, that they are seriously GRATEFUL, that there are now MORE factions to grind!
It's like a heroin junkie grateful for his dose.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
I don't respect WoW and I won't ever respect it. Its mmo's light and its crap. Not to mention the behavior of most of the players is despicable.I'll never play it again. Most people eventually leave the game for better games. The endless raiding is aggravating to say the best.
The only thing WoW did was take features of all the other games, dumb them down, and put them into the game.
If they make this game yet another carbon copy of WoW with different graphics, like every other new game recently released, I'm going to be severely pissed.
PLEASE NO MORE WOW, DEVS. PLEASE GIVE US SOMETHING DIFFERENT.
that last statement is SO ironic because WoW revitalized a game genre that was stank with repetition comprising of grinding, grinding and more grinding. You basically want another EQ where content sucks, leveling sucks, and PvP is just ganking. If TOR comes out like that itll sell well for a month then itll be DROPPED. Trust that.
No. I want a story, I want something unique. I loath PvP with a passion that cannot be overstated and I don't mind levelling.
OP has opened my eyes on one point......or , more like, focused them on a distant memory.. I think graphics do help realism...to a point..but it is absolutely true that realistic animations assist greatly and can make ...initially sub-par graphics...seem more advanced. I think of 2 games I played on the Commodore 64...."Karateka" and "Prince of Persia"....both done by the same company..I believe. Those games ...for the time (late 80's)...had very realistic animations....all movements seem very "human" and seamless. I think those animations still hold up today.(..and these were side view 2D games). It's kind of sad that many of the animations in contemporary games...especially MMOs....are not as realistic as a game made about 20 years ago. I know the mechanics of a SPG and an MMO are different...but you'd think technology would have caught up at some point...and I think it has for some MMOS.( I think AoC animations aren't too shabby). I hope TOR has this touch....it really does add to the immersion of a game...imo.
I did want to bring attention to this post, thank you BarCrow. I preach animation often... and this game has potential in that category.
This is a positive response to the thread in general.
/discuss
Host of the Only Un-Official Star Wars The Old Republic Vodcast - www.youtube.com/user/uswtorv
Comments
Ya...
Also thems aliens was giving me dirty looks!!!
PIRATE LORDS
Fantastic point Zymurgeist. I enjoy that viewpoint.
And to everyone else whom replied in some fashion, I appreciate all the feedback in this topic choice. I could not have gotten better responses from everyone. Thank you.
/discuss
Host of the Only Un-Official Star Wars The Old Republic Vodcast - www.youtube.com/user/uswtorv
Yeah? As far as I remember Wow had lousy PvP until 3 months after Guildwars released when they suddenly revamped PvP to the battleground system, stolen right out of GW.
Wow do have it's good points but even with the new system that Blizzard did not invent themselves, PvP is not Wows strong side.
As for a better PvE experience that is a matter of point. For me it just feels too easy to actually be fun, it was better in vanilla Wow but it never really been great for me.
So respect Wow? I do respect Blizzard, because they know their fans, made a MMO for them and got them to start playing MMOs. I also respect Strain (first boss on Wow, quited because he didn't like where wow where going) and Kaplan, great devs even if I think Wow would have been a lot better if Strain would have stayed instead of starting Arenanet.
But Wow in itself? Not really, not a bad game but overrated in my opinion.
people really need to stop thinking that WoW is the basis of all MMO's and stop thinking that WoW did everything first.
the only reason that it is still so popular is that it's easy to play, and plays on pretty much any computer.
but revolutionary? i think not.
*standing ovation*
I don't know if I would go so far as to make people respect any game, especially WoW. Games are games, even if they affect the genre differently. If you like it, play it.
WoW had three things going for it. First was the timing of its release. There were other games to play, for sure, but nothing exceptionally good. That's why, even with a horrid launch, server crashes, no battlegrounds, etc., people played and enjoyed WoW from the start. Second was the IP and the success of the previous RTS games. There were thousands of Warcraft fanatics who were hyped up and would've played WoW no matter what. Third was what Blizzard actually did, and this is what makes most gamers angry.
WoW wasn't revolutionary and Blizz was okay with that. What it did do, which is very smart, was take the best features of its predecessors, make them more accessible to the casual player, and wrap them in a convinient package. Then, of course, as the years passed, it kept its hardware more or less the same so that people can run it on a toaster if they wanted to. The problem with other companies trying to copy WoW is that its already been done, and if you try to use WoW as a springboard to implement some of your own unique (not revolutionary, because if you use that term, you're almost guaranteed failure to meet expectations), you need to have a very, very polished game. Why play _______ when it's like WoW, and WoW is already here, has been out for 5 years, and is packed with content?
Either way, WoW happened, and if it hadn't, another game, very similar, would've. It was only a matter of time. The problem with this genre is that two games created two different mindsets of what an MMORPG should be: UO first, and then WoW. Similar, but with enough differences to spawn terms such as "sandbox" or "themepark". This division in the MMO community has left the UO vets/sandboxers in the minority (though they certainly won't shut up!). If you want to blame WoW for that, you can, but just know that it would've happened anyway.
To the OP: Like I said, if Bioware is going to use WoW as an inspiration, they are going to have to do something different - something more than story - or else people won't bother. While Bioware doesn't have the time factor in their favor, they do have 2 of the 3 things WoW did - a popular, well-known IP (even more than Warcraft in 2004), and the knowledge of how WoW is successful (which WoW, of course, didn't have, but when it launched, Blizz knew why games like EQ were succesful). We might be seeing the first true WoW competitor in the works here - this, along with Aion, could form an MMO triumverate.
people really need to stop thinking that WoW is the basis of all MMO's and stop thinking that WoW did everything first.
the only reason that it is still so popular is that it's easy to play, and plays on pretty much any computer.
but revolutionary? i think not.
It would be stupid not to compare newer MMOs to WOW . It may not be everyone's cup of tea but its too powerful of a game to be denied. Its simple the newer games need the Fans to quit bashing WoW claiming its better, the proof is in the pudding, if its better the numbers will add up. When you bash WoW all you are really doing is bringing more and more attention to it, Instead gaming companies need to learn what it is that WoW did that made it so viral, and avoid advertising conflicts with a company that has more money than they do and force Blizzard to run anti-advertisments against them. You can't move a mountain by ramming cars into it....but you can go around and avoid it all together.
There are times when one must ask themselves is it my passion that truly frightens you? Or your own?
I'm with you in giving respect to the Giant.
I also played Shadowbane and have been waiting for some company to implement the ideas for Shadowbane into a modern game engine.
I can't agree with you in crowning a new king that hasn't hit maturity yet. I like the story driven idea, but for some MMO players the forced story choices may turn some people off. For god sakes blizzard had to add an option for speed text on quest. Time will tell, I want SWTOR to win big, but it's not time to consider crowning a new king.
[(T+G=W)=Gr*Nf]-S=FoF
T=Time G=Gear W=Win Gr=Grind Nf=NoFun S=Skill FoF=FullofFail
"Hey, I'll tell you what. You can get a good look at a butcher's azz by sticking your head up there. But, wouldn't you rather to take his word for it?" - Tommy Boy
I fea that when TOR is finally released, peple will find WoW 'deep', 'complex' and 'open' by comparison.
I fea that when TOR is finally released, peple will find WoW 'deep', 'complex' and 'open' by comparison.
Oh, that is guarenteed. I remember someone stating "Soon people will be claiming WoW is a sandbox", from which I laughed, and not a couple months later there were people on this forum claiming WoW was a sandbox game.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
people really need to stop thinking that WoW is the basis of all MMO's and stop thinking that WoW did everything first.
the only reason that it is still so popular is that it's easy to play, and plays on pretty much any computer.
but revolutionary? i think not.
That's not me buddy, I have never thought nor stated anything even remotely close to any of that shite!
With all the PVE and lack of PVP made the game=a sleeping pill for me. AI is so repetitive, predictable and available in way to many other games/MMO's. When I play an MMO I expect and want to be put up against other players the majority of the game not 1% of the game.
sorry, i forgot to put the "i agree" thingy after i quoted you heh, wasnt implying you said anytyhing like that, my bad
people really need to stop thinking that WoW is the basis of all MMO's and stop thinking that WoW did everything first.
the only reason that it is still so popular is that it's easy to play, and plays on pretty much any computer.
but revolutionary? i think not.
That's not me buddy, I have never thought nor stated anything even remotely close to any of that shite!
With all the PVE and lack of PVP made the game=a sleeping pill for me. AI is so repetitive, predictable and available in way to many other games/MMO's. When I play an MMO I expect and want to be put up against other players the majority of the game not 1% of the game.
sorry, i forgot to put the "i agree" thingy after i quoted you heh, wasnt implying you said anytyhing like that, my bad
Ahh, no worries
but I was like "what the! <scratch head>"
PIRATE LORDS
Why this is in the SW:TOR forum I will not understand, 90% of the OP coments are based on WoW.
Its sad that everyone that auto hates WoW either never played the game, played it for 3 secs and hated a minor thing in the game example "Undead can heal themselves and it doesn't hurt? BLASPHOMY!" or lastly blames the community basis for the game as a whole.
The first reason just means your afraid of something that might change your perseption about MMOs, or your just willfully ignorant. The second states that you have no imagination beyond that of what you were told from old games/books.
The last part I want to dive into some more detail here since it is one that I have heard alot lately; You make a game that is very popular to a wide market and its an MMO, doesnt matter what type it is, now that you have this large fan basis you now have attracted alot of weirdos and mentally handicapped people. You don't wanna alienate these players cus their still footing the bill of your game, so what do you do...
Create an Ignore button, sadly those players that come to these forums and whine about players being mean to them generally state that they were not allowed to play with the big boys in raids once they hit max level because they didnt reseach, ever reach max level because no one would run though though Gnomer, or they got into too many fights on trade chanel and no one wanted to deal with you ever again.
Yea players are rude, so are people, games dont make people asshats, people make people asshats.
Honey, I didn't play for just "three seconds". You can find out whether you'll like a game in the first free month, you know. I cancelled right before the month was over. It was a terrible game and the behavior of the many many many rude players was extremely despicable. I've played DAoC, CoH, SWG, EQ1, EQ2, Conan, Eve, LOTRO (beta'd that one, hubby currently has an account), PotBS, PotC (beta'd), WoW and I might be even missing a few in there.
Never have I ever seen a game so overrun by badly behaved people as I have WoW. At least once a week for the roughly three and a half weeks I played, I had someone harassing me in pm because I wouldn't pvp with them. And not just that one person either. They'd get all their buddies to harass me too. And they were all different people. On different servers. Not to mention the aggravation of the l337 on the main channels, the bad language, and worse. And then there's the fact that top level only means endless raiding because they have nothing else to offer and the devs are too lazy to bother with anything else.
I've never seen that behavior in any other game. Just WoW. So stop your defensive superiority complex, huh?
It's not hard friend to notice it all loops around and brings it back to the core of what I am attempting to get at. Hell... you did reply, so I must have done something correct. And thanks btw, excellent reply.
And Moirae; in all MMORPGs you are going to get that type of persons... with WoW having the larger subscriber base, you'll run into that much more often it'll seem. Also seems you spread your mind to too many games.. imo, perhaps attempt to embrace "one" for all it's worth. I hope SW:TOR it will be. That was only an opinion by me however. I appreciate your post as well, thank you.
Host of the Only Un-Official Star Wars The Old Republic Vodcast - www.youtube.com/user/uswtorv
Honey, I didn't play for just "three seconds". You can find out whether you'll like a game in the first free month, you know. I cancelled right before the month was over. It was a terrible game and the behavior of the many many many rude players was extremely despicable. I've played DAoC, CoH, SWG, EQ1, EQ2, Conan, Eve, LOTRO (beta'd that one, hubby currently has an account), PotBS, PotC (beta'd), WoW and I might be even missing a few in there.
Never have I ever seen a game so overrun by badly behaved people as I have WoW. At least once a week for the roughly three and a half weeks I played, I had someone harassing me in pm because I wouldn't pvp with them. And not just that one person either. They'd get all their buddies to harass me too. And they were all different people. On different servers. Not to mention the aggravation of the l337 on the main channels, the bad language, and worse. And then there's the fact that top level only means endless raiding because they have nothing else to offer and the devs are too lazy to bother with anything else.
I've never seen that behavior in any other game. Just WoW. So stop your defensive superiority complex, huh?
I agree with you Moirae, I have a long list of games I have played and beta etc. And as for WoW I have played it several times, I have friends who play it off and on as well, I had a guild there at launch.
PIRATE LORDS
And therein lies the problem...
Honey, I didn't play for just "three seconds". You can find out whether you'll like a game in the first free month, you know. I cancelled right before the month was over. It was a terrible game and the behavior of the many many many rude players was extremely despicable. I've played DAoC, CoH, SWG, EQ1, EQ2, Conan, Eve, LOTRO (beta'd that one, hubby currently has an account), PotBS, PotC (beta'd), WoW and I might be even missing a few in there.
Never have I ever seen a game so overrun by badly behaved people as I have WoW. At least once a week for the roughly three and a half weeks I played, I had someone harassing me in pm because I wouldn't pvp with them. And not just that one person either. They'd get all their buddies to harass me too. And they were all different people. On different servers. Not to mention the aggravation of the l337 on the main channels, the bad language, and worse. And then there's the fact that top level only means endless raiding because they have nothing else to offer and the devs are too lazy to bother with anything else.
I've never seen that behavior in any other game. Just WoW. So stop your defensive superiority complex, huh?
While you have a point, I'd like a few things considered when it comes to community.
WoW has, arguably, one of the worst communities in the genre. I would like to say that is actually not entirely true. The truth is probably simply this: The more people you get, the more assholes you will have. You have bad behaviour in any game, some more some less, but you will find it anywhere. WoW has more bad behaviour (and I agree with this fully) because there are simply more people. On the other hand, immaturity and outright idiocy do seem to be a bit abundant there.
However, there are different sort of "bad" communities. I would like to put forward EVE as an example. Now I would like to say in my 3 years total I played EVE, I found the community in general to be pretty good. On the other hand, the community is also what made me quit the game. Because the community was/is too extreme for my tastes. When a game overreaches into RL, then that is a no-go for me (I am referring to RL spying for in-game purposes as an example).
I also played Aion on Chinese servers for a while and the general behaviour of people there was much much worse than what I had experienced in WoW. Kill-stealing, Mob-stealing, no help offering, no friendly heals, no buffings simply for the heck of it, no word of thanks when you did actually help someone else, blatant mob-training etc were all very regular there.
So, in closing, I'd like to say, yes, WoW is filled with a lot of people I'd rather not have anything to do with. That is however largely owned to the fact that there are so many goddamn people there. And secondary because it attracts a lot of players who have no concept of the -community- as people who have played MMO's since the old days have.
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
WoW is the King. You don’t have to like the King, you don’t have to play the King, but you do have to acknowledge the King because numbers don’t lie. To do anything else demonstrates ignorance of the genre.
WoW itself can be a simple game for a child to play … or it can be as complex as the min/max’ers can make it. Yes, they didn’t invent the genre but they put it on the map and kept it there. Even my first MMORPG (UO) couldn’t do that. The community is not that bad when you compare it the communities of bottom-feeders playing games that have FFA PvP like AC1 DT or the AoC PvP servers. Go there if you want to see the worst in people who play games. They are fun for a diversion, but pale in comparison to games that offer true battles where skill is number one.
I’ve always been a little suspicious of people who choose class based games for their PvP fix anyway, instead of games that offer level playing fields but to each their own. Personally, when I run across a hardcore PvP’er who proclaims their uberness in these games, proclaiming anyone who disagrees with them carebears, I tend to ignore whatever they post or say. Far to narrow-minded for me. Either way, WoW’s community is tame compared to games with FFA PvP servers and the huge egos of those that feed there.
I’m not going to pretend to know why WoW succeeded where others have failed. I’m not an insider nor am I gifted with omnipotence. TOR seems to have a lot of plusses going for it from the developer to the IP. If they can figure out why the total WoW package works then more power to them. I wish them luck because the number of MMORPG’s that have truly made it since WoW’s release are few and far between, no matter the company, IP or the hype.
I can tell you why WoW succeeded in getting a large portion of the MMO community and you hinted on one of the reasons. “WoW itself can be a simple game for a child to play” . And it is on that note...you have tons of kids playing it and tons of people who are slow(Bluntly put). And it is also the reason it doesn't appeal to the minority of people who are in the top end of gaming. The pro's if you will of gaming, and yes this is a minority as with anything from pro poker to pro football. Basically people who are faster, smarter and more creative...this is not the vast majority in any genre.
As for me, I am basically a good and fair person and I'm fast and smart...I have been good at just about anything I do. I also love a challenge and I go into those FFA/PVP games but I don't gank lowbies and I'm not an a$$hat persay...I will and can be an a$$hat to those who do gank lowbies and who are a$$hats for no good reason and I will help others who have problems with those types and I'm not the only one like this...there are plenty like me as well. So even in those games there is balance and balance can be had if looked for and you have the ability to recognize things.
So for anyone who blanket states that all who play WoW are kids is wrong and the same goes for those who blanket state that a FFA/PVP game is nothing but a$$hat gankers.
PIRATE LORDS
I don't think wow is so popular because it is simple, not saying that it isn't but the main reason it is successful is because it manages to cater and keep everybody busy, they toned down the raids so more people can access them, they don't have prerequisites for any instance and the give elite rewards, not even talking about gear, the little status things that people really want and are willing to spend many hours grinding to get it. Mounts, pets, that funny looking hat or that horrible tabard that only 2 people in the server has.
In short, WoW caters to a really broad audience and that is what makes it successful. In that note, we have to realize that the primary reasons for companies to design games is to make money and they analyze everything in the industry to try to come up with the best formula in a game to do just that, make money.
Let’s not forget that any company will very easily alienate the relatively small number of hardcore gamers if they can attract 10 times as many casual ones.
Your equation doesn't explain the gamers like me and I know I speak for many because I have gamed with them in MMO's for years and still do today and I see their posts and opinions all over the place. WoW not only did not keep me busy it bored the hell out of me.
Your also wrong about companies, while it may be true for “most” companies who “JUST” want to make money, there are other companies who have some style and vision that want and will bring a change of flavor to the mix. Take the motorcycle companies for instance...Harley Davison does not alienate the small numbers it provides for (compared to Honda, Suzuki, etc) it provides for a minority of people who like that style and it does quite well. This same analogy can be applied in many other areas.
And if a game comes along that is more sandbox, pvp ran world, player cities, in depth crafting...in a nutshell a more complex code I would pay more for it and so would many others who would be willing to pay more for a custom non mainstream bike.
PIRATE LORDS
Basically WOW was in a way at the same time the best and the worst thing that happened to the MMO genre.
It was the best in that way, that it destroyed some age old hardcore MMO conventions, which just were tailor made for a very few people only. Downtimes. I recall coming from EQ2 and saw that Boss Mob "Hogger" killed in WOW, and I thought, damn now I have to camp for hours; when he respawned 1 min later, I cried tears of joy! This is just one of many examples. People do not want to wait for the fun or seek the fun. In that WOW paved the way which gladly can not be returned. I found the EQ1 and UO way of doing stuff only overly complicated and time consuming. Sitting down in EQ1 and waiting for Mana to regen, doing NOTHING, was not fun or challanging, it was merely boring.
But all in all today the bad feels to weigh greater.
It is the addiction circle. Essentially WOW is a sort of extension of the Diablio-principle. It is centered by and large around one simple idea: the greed for larger and better gear. The obstacles they put into the way to get those are not fun, they are work, the most dull hamster wheel possible.
Faction grind. I mean, every MMO had that, but the sheer amount of faction grind in WOW is insane. Then you have daily quests, raid dungeons, PVE gear sets, PVP gear sets. And ALL of them require you to repeat the same things OVER and OVER and OVER. Added the devious "inspect" you incite the greed and envy further. Many people in WOW are as a result totally fixated on only allowing the perfect fitting char. WOW gamers don't just look for "a healer" or "a tank.". Oh no! A WOW gamer looks for "a healer of class X, with skill tree Y, doing crit Z, equipped with type A gear". No joke. When a friend of mine ran around with a new axe he had used runes on, instead of... well I dont know what, some other procedure, he instantly got tells, explaining him that this way inferior to procedure X of applying stuff on the weapon. Or that his Pally with skill tree whatever was not rightly skilled to come along. All that stuff. It is elitarian now to no avail!
Esp. the faction and raid grind is terrible now. There are uber-mega-hyper items for PVE and seperated for PVP, then uber rare mounts, and you know you can never attain anything of that with any normal playstyle. Those stories are not from WOW haters! I hear them from WOW vets, who play it out of lack of alternative, as they say, and because their guildies are there. People of whom some are unemployed and STILL they tell me it is nigh impossible to get all that high end uber stuff! People who are so addicted to WOW, that they are seriously GRATEFUL, that there are now MORE factions to grind!
It's like a heroin junkie grateful for his dose.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
that last statement is SO ironic because WoW revitalized a game genre that was stank with repetition comprising of grinding, grinding and more grinding. You basically want another EQ where content sucks, leveling sucks, and PvP is just ganking. If TOR comes out like that itll sell well for a month then itll be DROPPED. Trust that.
No. I want a story, I want something unique. I loath PvP with a passion that cannot be overstated and I don't mind levelling.
Stop twisting what I said. Its childish.
I did want to bring attention to this post, thank you BarCrow. I preach animation often... and this game has potential in that category.
This is a positive response to the thread in general.
/discuss
Host of the Only Un-Official Star Wars The Old Republic Vodcast - www.youtube.com/user/uswtorv