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We want something new! We want innovation! Errr, well not that.....
andmiller
Member Posts: 374
This is more of a response to a buch of threads I have been following rather than a completely new topic.
I think it is rather amusing that the bulk of us have been clamoring for something new and innovative for the last few years. I could link a hundred threads where posters bemoan the current MMO's and how there is nothing innovative in them. We finally have a developer trying something new, a story driven MMO. An MMO where you actually care about what is happening to your character in terms of the back-story of the game, where your progression is not simply based on what level your character is or what level you have macro'd your sword skill to.
And then with this announcement I see people crying foul! The people crying foul don't want something new, they want the same old thing, or a slightly varied version of the particular game they like. I would like to address some of the more irritating recent posts.
There is an onslaught of "who cares about story?" and "WoW already focused on story!". If you don't care about stories in games then fair enough, obviously a game focused on telling a story is not for you. I get that. You probably don't like Bioware in general then. But to say who cares about story.....? Lot's of people. All you need to look at is Bioware's sales #'s to see that. And to the group saying WoW already did story....? Really? You are comparing a game with a few lines of text for the quests, which has a feature to "turn quest dialogue off" to a game created in the Bioware style with full voice acting and independent quests for each class and saying it has already been done?
There is another group of posts saying this is a single player game, not an MMO. I guess I don't follow this at all. Because it has the capability to solo through the game, it is not an MMO? Does WoW not have the same option? Do several of the more popular current MMO's not have this option? Is an MMO not defined as a bunch of people playing in a persistent gaming world? Any other definition is just some elitist nonsense IMO.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MMORPG
And then my personal favorite group of postings centers on whether Bioware's track record indicates anything about their success in an MMO. Is it not logical to assume that a developer that has released almost entirely AAA titles would be able to release a good MMO? Of course it doesn't guarantee it, but in the real world you have to make educated guesses. If you only have $100 to your name, and you have to bet on whether the game will be a success or not, would you really bet that it would not based on their track record? And I think we've seen recently that "experience" in MMO development is hardly an indicator of future success. Most company's "follow-up" MMOs have been considered weaker than their first game (EQ2, WAR, AOC, etc).
The bottom line is you guys don't want something new, you just want a variation of whatever game you liked in MMO history.
Comments
I see cranky UO or SWG vets crying about a new sandbox so they can relive their glory days more than anything. However, I see your point and agree with you 100%. Good post.
Wow, this sums up my feelings whenever I read these threads. Thank you for articulating them in a way that I could not.
Well said, OP.
Prax
Honestly, I don't care about story in MMO's. However for a single player RPG story is number 1 for me. My issue with story in MMO's is it is hard for quests and player actions to have a real effect on the game world because of all of the other players in it. I go to X spot and kill a guy for a story quest in a single player RPG and the next time I walk past he's not there. Do that in a MMO and there are probably three people standing in line to kill him for the same quest I did yesterday. It just kills the imersion for me.
Oh, and "The bottom line is you guys don't want something new, you just want a variation of whatever game you liked in MMO history." is probably the most accurate thing I have ever heard spoken on these boards. I will even admit that I also fall into this category to some extent.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
Fair enough, but it is possible that you "don't care about story in an MMO" because no one has done it well yet? I admit to having questions about how they are going to pull it off, but we really have nothing to compare it to at the moment. So maybe you don't care because the level of story-telling so far has been so pathetic, that no one cares about it.....
Just because you go with voice over text does not mean that you now have story, or good story. It means you have a huge install. Did WoW do story? No not at all. Did AC that came long before WoW do a continuingly unfolding and progressing story for 10 years now? Yes. Did LotRO do well crafted story? Yes. So no it's not the first MMO to do story.
Did EQ2 do some voice? Yup. Did DDO do voice in a cool way with dungeon master voice overs on entering dungeons? Yup. Did AoC start doing voice then give up on it? Yup. So once again doing voice overs is not innovative.
Do a lot of people dislike the fact that more and more MMOs are shifting to solo play? Yup. Is SW:tOR the first game to allow itself to be fully soloable? Nope, so once again not innovative.
Did DDO allow full VOiP for groups, through the game with full streaming quality? Yup, guess SW:tOR isn't innovative there.
Was there an MMO made on the Star Wars universe? Yup, not innovative there.
Maybe people who say they want innovation, actually want there to be innovation. Not a let's pretend all of this hasn't been done before and call it innovation.
So you're a fan of SW:tOR, great. But because you're a fan assuming that everyone who points out flaws is just being ridiculous or out of line is crossing the line into fanboy.
I agree, another example is Mortal Online. they are doing something different with First Person View and you can find tons of threads about people complaining about it. so they try something different which everybody keeps on about how they want something different and when they do, people complain about it. i just dont understand it
That is possible but I think it is more a problem with having so many people in a single world (IE The thing that makes a MMO a MMO) then it is about pure story telling. I am open to a story driven MMO but I don't think it's possible for someone to pull one off. Namely because you would have to have a team of 1000 people doing nothing but writting content 24 hours a day because for me to consider it immersive every quest would have to be uniqe. Now those are MY standards and I understand not everyone would hold a story driven MMO to those levels. I am not saying in any way shape or form that the game will be bad or that it wont be sucessful. I'm just saying that it probably wont be for me because if a game is going to be sotry based the standard that I hold it to are going to be pretty much impossible for a MMO to pull off.
Edit - Forgot to quote lol. This is in respones to the OP's response to me.
-Currently looking forward to FFXIV
-Currently playing EvE and Global Agenda
I couldn't have proven my point about the story posts any better if I had linked this post into the original. The people who are excited about this game are making the assumption, yes the assumption, that the story telling in TOR will be on par with KOTOR, ME, Baldur's Gate, etc. You are then comparing the story telling in those games to AC & LOTRO? I don't think I need to say any more, that pretty much sums up my point.
You also pulled voice out and focused on it. Full voice, cut scenes, a progressing story.....you are saying that isn't innovative in an MMO because EQ2 has it in a handful of places and DDO has that annoying background voice in dungeons.....? No MMO has done it like they are trying to do it, not even close. Whether they pull it off or not is another story, and not the point of my post in any way.
Your comparisons for what they say they are going to do are found lacking. Badly.
And now this becomes a speculation war on both sides, like every other thread. I really wish that Bioware would release something new on this game so that we could put some of these discussions to rest, or at least have something better to discuss while we wait for the game to come out.
Prax
I've said this before and I'm going to say it again. (Based on speculations at this point)
1. For all the focus on "story" that seems to be coming out I am not hearing enough for my liking about "freedom". It sounds to me like the devs have this grand idea to sweep us up and take us on a ride through their story. Well that's fantastic but part of the reason I play MMO's is to have a chance to write my own story. There's not enough out about the game to make a final determination but what I have heard makes me a bit concerned that the game may be a lot of hand holding from 1 point in the story to another. What if I want to change paths, totally run afoul of the story and wreck it, what if I want to change the plot? This is my chief concern at this point in development. If the game plays like KOTOR the SPG then I will pass. I can play Mass Effect 2 when it comes out and get the same experience for less money.
2. A company's success in the past only lays a potential foundation for success in the MMO world. The other part of this that folks seem to conveniently forget is that Bioware doesn't own the IP. LucasArts is the puppet master here with EA as a close second. You have 3 companies all having a say in what they want in the game and 2 of those 3 don't have a ton of success in developing great MMO's. A lot of people were sucking the tit of Mythic about how great they were when Warhammer was set to release, and that game was an epic POS.
3. I would love to see some innovation in the MMO world but only to a point. There are some things that current MMO's do very well and I don't see the point in changing that just to say they changed it. Also, since there's no information on the actual game play of the game it's really hard to say the game is doing something truely unique and different. Lets say for example the game plays exactly like WoW but has voice acting and quests that follow a story. That's not really unique at all. Only time is going to tell whether the game is really something fresh and different or if it's just the same ol' **it.
Fair enough, but it is possible that you "don't care about story in an MMO" because no one has done it well yet? I admit to having questions about how they are going to pull it off, but we really have nothing to compare it to at the moment. So maybe you don't care because the level of story-telling so far has been so pathetic, that no one cares about it.....
I agree. It's kinda hard at this point to really wrap your head around what they are trying to do until you can actually try it out. One way for people to get it is to play KOTOR, then Mass Effect, that's what they are trying to do in an MMO. If you don't like the classic RPG story then no, this game is not for you. But I would advise you at least try it when it launches to see how it works out.
I couldn't have proven my point about the story posts any better if I had linked this post into the original. The people who are excited about this game are making the assumption, yes the assumption, that the story telling in TOR will be on par with KOTOR, ME, Baldur's Gate, etc. You are then comparing the story telling in those games to AC & LOTRO? I don't think I need to say any more, that pretty much sums up my point.
You also pulled voice out and focused on it. Full voice, cut scenes, a progressing story.....you are saying that isn't innovative in an MMO because EQ2 has it in a handful of places and DDO has that annoying background voice in dungeons.....? No MMO has done it like they are trying to do it, not even close. Whether they pull it off or not is another story, and not the point of my post in any way.
Your comparisons for what they say they are going to do are found lacking. Badly.
AC2 had voice and cut scenes, what it would do is when you went to a guy for a quest it could show you a video of what happened to cause him to need your help (so a video of bandits coming in and taking his family for an example).
The real issue is you're so wrapped up in what you think this game will be, you'd rather ignore credible criticism. There is a reason why other games didn't do voice for every single character in a game, people don't want their game to be huge due to 10,000 sound files added in.
If you really think SW:tOR is innovative, which if your fanboy glasses came off you'd realize it isn't in the least, and you think that the story is going to be like running a single player rpg, then you are sadly mistaken. There is a reason why MMOs don't follow the single player rpg story format. The illusion that you are actually changing the world is instantly destroyed by the fact that a character ahead of you in the game already did that quest, he already killed the guy you're going in to kill, already saved the person you're going in to save. It's not the same. The only way to ever do that would be that every quest in the game can only ever be done once, by one person, and that is impossible. The story will not be any more robust then LotRO, or AC (which I know you haven't even played).
AC did monthly updates for almost 10 years now (october I think is the 10 year anniversary) with only a handfull of months missed in the entire time. (Near the beginning of year 9 last year they did their 100th update). Through out all those updates storylines were created, progressed and finished. With the average major storyline lasting 4-6 months. That is a truly changing and progressing world. These storylines sometimes destroyed entire towns that players called home, completly altered landscape and how the world worked. These truly changed the game dynamics, the game world, and the player experience.
However you want to write that off because 1) you never played it and 2) you want SW:tOR to be revolutionary in telling a story. They won't have monthly updates, I'm sure they'll do the current standard of WoW which is an expansion every 1-2 years which opens some more places. That isn't some amazing story, it's typical.
Even LotRO does book updates every few months that progress parts of the story, allowing it to evolve and change. But because you didn't like the book quests in LotRO suddenly they didn't tell a story?
You are insane in thinking this is something new, and that it will be so much different.
I couldn't have proven my point about the story posts any better if I had linked this post into the original. The people who are excited about this game are making the assumption, yes the assumption, that the story telling in TOR will be on par with KOTOR, ME, Baldur's Gate, etc. You are then comparing the story telling in those games to AC & LOTRO? I don't think I need to say any more, that pretty much sums up my point.
You also pulled voice out and focused on it. Full voice, cut scenes, a progressing story.....you are saying that isn't innovative in an MMO because EQ2 has it in a handful of places and DDO has that annoying background voice in dungeons.....? No MMO has done it like they are trying to do it, not even close. Whether they pull it off or not is another story, and not the point of my post in any way.
Your comparisons for what they say they are going to do are found lacking. Badly.
AC2 had voice and cut scenes, what it would do is when you went to a guy for a quest it could show you a video of what happened to cause him to need your help (so a video of bandits coming in and taking his family for an example).
The real issue is you're so wrapped up in what you think this game will be, you'd rather ignore credible criticism. There is a reason why other games didn't do voice for every single character in a game, people don't want their game to be huge due to 10,000 sound files added in.
If you really think SW:tOR is innovative, which if your fanboy glasses came off you'd realize it isn't in the least, and you think that the story is going to be like running a single player rpg, then you are sadly mistaken. There is a reason why MMOs don't follow the single player rpg story format. The illusion that you are actually changing the world is instantly destroyed by the fact that a character ahead of you in the game already did that quest, he already killed the guy you're going in to kill, already saved the person you're going in to save. It's not the same. The only way to ever do that would be that every quest in the game can only ever be done once, by one person, and that is impossible. The story will not be any more robust then LotRO, or AC (which I know you haven't even played).
AC did monthly updates for almost 10 years now (october I think is the 10 year anniversary) with only a handfull of months missed in the entire time. (Near the beginning of year 9 last year they did their 100th update). Through out all those updates storylines were created, progressed and finished. With the average major storyline lasting 4-6 months. That is a truly changing and progressing world. These storylines sometimes destroyed entire towns that players called home, completly altered landscape and how the world worked. These truly changed the game dynamics, the game world, and the player experience.
However you want to write that off because 1) you never played it and 2) you want SW:tOR to be revolutionary in telling a story. They won't have monthly updates, I'm sure they'll do the current standard of WoW which is an expansion every 1-2 years which opens some more places. That isn't some amazing story, it's typical.
Even LotRO does book updates every few months that progress parts of the story, allowing it to evolve and change. But because you didn't like the book quests in LotRO suddenly they didn't tell a story?
You are insane in thinking this is something new, and that it will be so much different.
Who actually has the illusion that you are changing the world when playing an MMO? Honestly, I think we all realize that when we complete a quest 15k other players have already done it, and 15k more will do it afterwords.
And as far as "Credible Criticism" is concerned, I'd love to see some... but no one has yet to provide any. Perhaps because we know VERY LITTLE about the damn game. So all we have is speculative whining.
I think the problem here is that too many users are just small minded and cannot comprehend how a story arch can be used correctly within an MMO. And I'm hoping that this will keep that type of player away from the game, so that the rest of us can enjoy it without having to put up with them.
Yet the nay sayers can't seem to give Bioware any benefit of the doubt. Why is that? As far as I can tell, it's soley due to Bioware's statements about a solo game play focus. Every argument starts off by calling this a single player online game and not a true MMO. As if soloing not only meant the destruction of the group play style, but also of the entire genre. You don't like soloing, fine, go play some other game. Stop trashing the type of game I have been waiting for since UO came out. I'm really getting frakking tired of it and I'll be beyond irritated if all the bitching and whining from a handful of group fanatics influences Bioware to change their stance.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
People do not want innovation (to a point) they want something familiar, so that all the learned knowledge can apply, and they can tell people that its not like the other game they were playing.
----------
"Anyone posting on this forum is not an average user, and there for any opinions about the game are going to be overly critical compared to an average users opinions." - Me
"No, your wrong.." - Random user #123
"Hello person posting on a site specifically for MMO's in a thread on a sub forum specifically for a particular game talking about meta features and making comparisons to other titles in the genre, and their meta features.
How are you?" -Me
I couldn't have proven my point about the story posts any better if I had linked this post into the original. The people who are excited about this game are making the assumption, yes the assumption, that the story telling in TOR will be on par with KOTOR, ME, Baldur's Gate, etc. You are then comparing the story telling in those games to AC & LOTRO? I don't think I need to say any more, that pretty much sums up my point.
You also pulled voice out and focused on it. Full voice, cut scenes, a progressing story.....you are saying that isn't innovative in an MMO because EQ2 has it in a handful of places and DDO has that annoying background voice in dungeons.....? No MMO has done it like they are trying to do it, not even close. Whether they pull it off or not is another story, and not the point of my post in any way.
Your comparisons for what they say they are going to do are found lacking. Badly.
AC2 had voice and cut scenes, what it would do is when you went to a guy for a quest it could show you a video of what happened to cause him to need your help (so a video of bandits coming in and taking his family for an example).
The real issue is you're so wrapped up in what you think this game will be, you'd rather ignore credible criticism. There is a reason why other games didn't do voice for every single character in a game, people don't want their game to be huge due to 10,000 sound files added in.
I'm confused, how can the criticism be credible when you have not played the game? Any criticism you have at this point is pure speculation and guesstimation. Your criticism above is nonsense and the comparisons laughable. Again, when comparing them to their past games which is what they are shooting for. And again I will say, since you keep glossing over it, that I have no idea if they will be able to pull it off or not, but to say it has been like they are talking about doing it is completely false.
If you really think SW:tOR is innovative, which if your fanboy glasses came off you'd realize it isn't in the least, and you think that the story is going to be like running a single player rpg, then you are sadly mistaken. There is a reason why MMOs don't follow the single player rpg story format. The illusion that you are actually changing the world is instantly destroyed by the fact that a character ahead of you in the game already did that quest, he already killed the guy you're going in to kill, already saved the person you're going in to save. It's not the same. The only way to ever do that would be that every quest in the game can only ever be done once, by one person, and that is impossible. The story will not be any more robust then LotRO, or AC (which I know you haven't even played).
Pure and total speculation with nothing to back it up in the slightest. Like I have said, we have nothing to compare it to so comparing their previous games and the level of story telling to these games you keep referencing is, well, not comparable. We have no idea at this point exactly how they are going to implement it.
AC did monthly updates for almost 10 years now (october I think is the 10 year anniversary) with only a handfull of months missed in the entire time. (Near the beginning of year 9 last year they did their 100th update). Through out all those updates storylines were created, progressed and finished. With the average major storyline lasting 4-6 months. That is a truly changing and progressing world. These storylines sometimes destroyed entire towns that players called home, completly altered landscape and how the world worked. These truly changed the game dynamics, the game world, and the player experience.
However you want to write that off because 1) you never played it and 2) you want SW:tOR to be revolutionary in telling a story. They won't have monthly updates, I'm sure they'll do the current standard of WoW which is an expansion every 1-2 years which opens some more places. That isn't some amazing story, it's typical.
I write it off because it isn't comparable. Not only did I play AC (though definitely not for 10 years....you might be the only guy that did I guess), but to compare the story-telling and progression to Bioware games is again, not comparable. It isn't even in the same league. Again, let me try this one more time since you keep ignoring it, I have no idea if they will pull it off. But to say what they are "trying" to do is not innovative in MMO's is just nonsense.
Even LotRO does book updates every few months that progress parts of the story, allowing it to evolve and change. But because you didn't like the book quests in LotRO suddenly they didn't tell a story?
You are insane in thinking this is something new, and that it will be so much different.
honestly
i think it will be just another " guided experiance" with a different name slapped on the box
When you consider what Bioware actually said about solo vs group, it just highlights how rediculous the arguments are. This game CAN be solo'd. But it can also be done in a group. They've specifically mentioned the benefits to having someone from another class with you while doing quests that are clearly designed for your specific class. But they see the word "solo" and start freaking out.
It's a sad trend that is rampant around here. People just shit on anything new. If it's not exactly what they wanted, then it sucks, and the developers suck, and anyone who likes the game sucks.
Bioware has an amazing reputation and has a track record for delivering great games. So unless you're an absolute fucking moron who thinks that all new MMO's suck, then you should be smart enough to hold off and reserve judgement until we actually know more about the game.
would you care to enlightend us on how you came to your divine conclusions?
Bioware only puts out crappy games? Bioware just pushes poor copies of already existing games? Bioware never innovates? Hmmm... It seems that none of these apply, so I can only assume you must have some great knowledge that the rest of us are lacking.
That, or you are just talking out of your ass.
When you consider what Bioware actually said about solo vs group, it just highlights how rediculous the arguments are. This game CAN be solo'd. But it can also be done in a group. They've specifically mentioned the benefits to having someone from another class with you while doing quests that are clearly designed for your specific class. But they see the word "solo" and start freaking out.
It's a sad trend that is rampant around here. People just shit on anything new. If it's not exactly what they wanted, then it sucks, and the developers suck, and anyone who likes the game sucks.
Bioware has an amazing reputation and has a track record for delivering great games. So unless you're an absolute fucking moron who thinks that all new MMO's suck, then you should be smart enough to hold off and reserve judgement until we actually know more about the game.
/agree 100%
I just realized I have been responding to and arguing with someone who actually has this as his forum name......
*punches self in head*
You do know that a "guided experience" has proven to be much, much more popular than sandbox, right? Not sure why you phrase it as a negative for the game.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Every FFXI player here would know that story line is CENTRAL to keeping people playing any MMO. Mechanics and Content and Gear come after this.
If you can captivate someone enough just from the opening cut scene, you have a customer that will see the game through to the end.
The 2 more successfull MMO that I can think of are MAJORLY focused on Story and Lore. Those being WoW & FFxi.
This is one of the biggest misconception about SW:TOR. The developers have acknowledged the problem that you can not change "the world" in a persistent online game. What you can do and what Bioware is attempting to do, is change the individual character and it's connection to the world via the player's choices while progressing through their own story.
Will Bioware be successful and accomplish their goals, only time will tell.
Not for everyone. For example, I found myself unable to play FFXI entirely because of mechanics. Just wasn't my style, despite the fact that I greatly enjoy Final Fantasy games in general.
This is not really on-topic, but in regards to SWTOR, there will be plenty of players who really don't care about the story. Well done or not, they it's just not a feature that interests some people. Bioware won't be able to convince them otherwise, and neither can you.
Prax
Just a couple of thoughts here...
I think the anticipation that fans feel for the game pushes them to talk about anything related to the game, as if in some way talking about it (complaining or praising) will alleviate some of the excitement. I don't think it really amounts to anything meaningful. It's just people talking. That's not to say that there aren't some valid topics or concerns out there, but they get buried in the mix.
Many games have been innovative. It's really amazing when you look at how far games, online or otherwise, have come in a very short time. But it seems to me that we've reached a plateau and I think developers aren't really sure where to go from here (or how to go from here?).
We all don't want the same thing. You're absolutely right about some wanting the same thing wrapped in a different package, but not everyone does. Some want real, in-your-face ingenuity and we feel like we just keep getting fed the same oatmeal, just with different food coloring, or maybe some fruit mixed in. It's still oatmeal and I'm really tired of oatmeal. WAR would be my first example here if you asked me for one.
I'm actually looking forward to SW:ToR, but with reservations. I'm not sure that Bioware's addition of a 'fourth pillar' to a game is anything innovative by itself. At least, it's not for them. They are very good at writing stories already. But if they can create an MMO with the kind of story for which they are known in an MMO environment where other players can see and feel the consequences of one player's decisions? Well, this is where I hope they surprise me.
Good post!