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Stop whining about the casualization of FF
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Yanni? YANNI!!!! Really? ... serious dude just fucking rick roll me next time ... it is easier to stomach
Yanni? YANNI!!!! Really? ... serious dude just fucking rick roll me next time ... it is easier to stomach
can you make your signature smaller its annoying as all hell. Thank you.
I loved FFXI but waiting for like 4 years for a party did get a bit annoying epecially when i hit college and i quit because i didn't have the time to put into the game anymore, if FFXIV can offer even a little bit of solo ability in the game i can finally return to my beloved FF online, so i agree with this thread, stop whining its not all about you "hardcore" people, if you want to be "hardcore" go to Korea thats where the real "hardcore" mmo gamers are
The Paladin
FFXI has soloplay- if we whined that having possibility to solo isn't hardcore enough, we'd be saying that FFXI isn't hardcore enough at the same time. Kinda dumb thing to say imo.
The hardcore crowd has a right to whine because game after game after game has been aimed at casual easy mode solofest everyones a winner. Its rather sad that the MMO genre has turned to what it has. One casual game comes out everyone plays it, then jumps on the next big MMO's bandwagon a few months down the road. FFXIV will be big until the next casual game is announced then you guys will jump ship again, start on that game forum saying how casual you guys want it, and youll get it. All the while leaving FFXIV to die. Hopefully there is enough "hardcore" elements to keep the real MMO players their playing it. Which I think there will be because its SE after all.
Hardcore pvP fans have a right to whine because they have not got a game for them. DF is a joke (because of AV) but thankfully they have MO to put hopes in for.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
I think we have a lot of people talking past each other because everybody has a different personal idea of skill. Is skill in a game as big as playing an instument...probably not. However people play instruments with practice and get better, you learn your class in game with practice, next thing you know you are discovering better way to do this, better times to apply this. It's the same with an instrument, very few people pick up an instrument and play Mozart, they need to learn the basics...same thing with a game...on the same scale, probably not. No one is saying that you don't have skill if you know how to play an instrument by saying that a game took skill...no need to get defensive there.
I played FFXI for 3 years (solid), and WoW for 4 (off and on, I quit after BC and came back for WoTLK), They both allow you to really practice your class (with the grind) but in FFXI because of the community and way the game mechanics worked, you had to know it and how to play it well after a certain point. This really can't be said for WoW, unless you are into hard core pvp or raiding. WoW raiding does require a little bit more knowledge, at least from most of the group, one or two people can still be morons and the group will survive (group of 25 now). It didn't really seem to work that way in FFXI, everyone needed to know what they were doing. I think a game takes as much skill as you are willing to give it, but to progress or expereince some of the end game stuff in FFXI you did need to know your class.
That being said both games are doing really well and for different reasons, they are very hard to compare. FFXI is more a niche game now, WoW certainly still has the market share. I don't think when SE says "casual" they mean WoW, I think the game will still be more like FFXI than WoW, but they probably recognize that they need to make their new game more accessable and so that is what they are doing but introducing content for small periods of time. Of course I can't know this for sure, but look at SE's track record. Casual does not have to mean dumbing down, you can still have some difficult stuff for the casual player to do (please make it more difficult than the daily grind in wow right now).
I think most people are happy to see content for more "casual" stuff however what they don't want are giant exclamation marks over a quest givers head, and arrows on the mini map. We enjoyed talking to the NPC's to see who had quests, stumbing across a quest objective and stuff like this, not that this is anymore "hardcore" than wow, just different.
Currently Playing: FFXIV:ARR
Looking Forward to: Wildstar
I have played a Paladin in Both Games.
I had to struggle to keep my Mithra Paladin alive and holding hate. And yea I had good gear, and I knew my class very well.
In WoW I had to struggle to make things interesting. Everything was Cake as a Prot pld.
I'll take the dificulty of FFXI any day of the week.
My first ever MMO was FFXI, and I started playing right after graduating college. I absolutely LOVED it and quite frankly, I got addicted.
I played for over a year, and because it started effecting my grades in law school I quit. Unfortunately, I started playing WoW shortly afterward, and continued to play on and off for 4 years.
Last year I came back to FFXI, played for 6 months and stopped after my son was born. But, I continue to play WoW.
Throughout this time, I've had a 75 War/nin/thf in FFXI. I have three lvl 80's in WoW (Warrior, Hunter, Death Knight).
Why the long story? I think I have a good understanding of both games given the fact I've seen what time investment it requires to progress and the memories i've kept along the way.
What Do I like about FFXI? The social aspect, the community. Game was designed around the premise of working together for everything, rather than competiton (hence the lack of the substantive pvp component) Grouping was part and parcel of why most people loved the game. When I went back to FFXI after not playing for 3 years. Guess what? Majority of the people I met on Unicorn were STILL PLAYING. Other great aspects include the difficulty in the form of quests, deep storyies, indiviualized AF quests per class, being afraid when you enter a zone, having to avoid mobs. I was literally afraid for my life when setting foot in Xarcabard.
What things can I do without in FFXI? Every single mob looked the SAME. Pugs in Dunes looked just like the pugs everywhere else. There was no variety to the game other than the design of the HNMS's. I loved and hated the fact that in orginal FFXI (~2001), you had to group for 5 hours a time just to attain one level. And if you died, you devlevled. This things didn't add to the hardcoreness of the game but rather the frustration. Because the game was designed where you COULD NOT do anything substantive if you didn't devote 10 hours a day, or an entire weekend, or shits camping an HNM, people became addicted and/or anti-social. I was in law school and remember spending an entire night playing only to find my mother threatening to kick me out of the house if I didn't get my act together.
I would love FFXI to keep the social/grouping aspect but not require that we devote an entire day to accomplishing something. The quest design, AF armor, CRAFTING was brilliant. But the staleness of the npc design and the lack of variety hurt the game in terms of reaching the mainstream.
Also, As a warrior ninja, I only had like 4-5 abilities I would use at any given time regardless of the encounter. WoW has like 50 per class. I think something int he realm of 20-25 abilities per class is good. Playing a Warrior/Nin in FFXI seemed shallow. Though I loved the Weapon Skills, it wasn't enough for me to stay past two years.
With WoW, there are a lot of great things and things I wish MMO's will never repeat. I hated having to rely on 39 other people to sign on only to get something done. I hated raiding 5 days a week, 5 hours a day. I hated being gear dependent. I hate the egos and epeens in wow. The community is nothing like FFXI. A lot of immature 12 year olds playing and yelling "Zomg l2p nooob!"
What's great about WoW? The fact that the instances are 30 min - hour. That I can log on one night, get something substantive done and get rewards that are comparable to hard core gamers. What's the flipside? The fact that WoW requries you to grind a certain instance/ raid 6 months at a time (MC, BWL, AQ, Naxx, KARA, SSC, TK, BT, NAXX (again) etc.). The grind is absolutely horrible. Killing the same bosses every single week, for 5 months is not fun. The gear in wow seems to be an endless addition of zeroes. I still enjoy playing WoW only cause, as an attorney and a father, it allows me to get stuff done small chunks at a time.
If FFXI is exactly the same in terms of grouping/lvling, as much as I loved FFXI as my first mmo, I won't be able to come back.
The hardcore crowd has a right to whine because game after game after game has been aimed at casual easy mode solofest everyones a winner. Its rather sad that the MMO genre has turned to what it has. One casual game comes out everyone plays it, then jumps on the next big MMO's bandwagon a few months down the road. FFXIV will be big until the next casual game is announced then you guys will jump ship again, start on that game forum saying how casual you guys want it, and youll get it. All the while leaving FFXIV to die. Hopefully there is enough "hardcore" elements to keep the real MMO players their playing it. Which I think there will be because its SE after all.
Hardcore pvP fans have a right to whine because they have not got a game for them. DF is a joke (because of AV) but thankfully they have MO to put hopes in for.
The hardcores are always the most vocal, when they're getting their way or not. We can never win against them, because they can't stand the thought that any game would have casual content.
As for the genre supposedly being filled with casual goodness, please point out a single current MMO that caters exclusively to casuals other than the childish games like Free Realms or Toon Town. Please point out a single MMO that doesn't give hardcores the best gear progression? Please point out a single MMO that doesn't give hardcores perks for their play style, while shafting the casuals?
What I can do is point out the most casual oriented game to hit the market, WoW, being ruined by hardcores as they bitched and griped about casuals getting equal loot and access to elite content. So much so that today, you can't get crap as a casual player other than worthless epics from faction grinding that don't even remotely compete with hardcore PvP and Raid gear. You have a game that went from having very little raiding, to one that focuses obssessively on raiding for the measly 20% hardcore player base while shafting the other 80%.
So, you'll have to pardon my disbelief in your conclusion that hardcores have a right to whine.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
The hardcores are always the most vocal, when they're getting their way or not. We can never win against them, because they can't stand the thought that any game would have casual content.
As for the genre supposedly being filled with casual goodness, please point out a single current MMO that caters exclusively to casuals other than the childish games like Free Realms or Toon Town. Please point out a single MMO that doesn't give hardcores the best gear progression? Please point out a single MMO that doesn't give hardcores perks for their play style, while shafting the casuals?
What I can do is point out the most casual oriented game to hit the market, WoW, being ruined by hardcores as they bitched and griped about casuals getting equal loot and access to elite content. So much so that today, you can't get crap as a casual player other than worthless epics from faction grinding that don't even remotely compete with hardcore PvP and Raid gear. You have a game that went from having very little raiding, to one that focuses obssessively on raiding for the measly 20% hardcore player base while shafting the other 80%.
So, you'll have to pardon my disbelief in your conclusion that hardcores have a right to whine.
Is it that hardcore people always the most vocal or the casuals because they cant get the gear that the hardcores can and feel cheated because they pay the same sub? My vote is on the casuals winning because guess what? All the MMO's are aimed at the casuals.There has to be some harder content in any game because otherwise everyone would have everything and move on to the next MMO.
Ill point out an MMO like you challeneged anyone to. IMO AoC caters to casuals 100%. IDK if things changed or not but I am baseing this off when I played. Raided gear was garbage, crafted gear embeded with gems was where it was at. Anyone could have the best gear without much effort (except grinding gold)
When anyone can grind instances for gear, thats not hardcore. Its just a timesink and a grind you know you will get it, its just a matter of time, When your not guarnteed a drop thats imo what adds to "hardcore". For example I camped nidhoog for 4-5 months straight. I never got my M. abj. bdy. I ended up quitting ffxi before I got it. I didnt quit because i didnt get what I wanted. After 4 years of playing it was just time to move on. A person can only play a game so long before it gets old.
Waiting for:EQ-Next, ArcheAge (not so much anymore)
Now Playing: N/A
Worst MMO: FFXIV
Favorite MMO: FFXI
The hardcores are always the most vocal, when they're getting their way or not. We can never win against them, because they can't stand the thought that any game would have casual content.
As for the genre supposedly being filled with casual goodness, please point out a single current MMO that caters exclusively to casuals other than the childish games like Free Realms or Toon Town. Please point out a single MMO that doesn't give hardcores the best gear progression? Please point out a single MMO that doesn't give hardcores perks for their play style, while shafting the casuals?
What I can do is point out the most casual oriented game to hit the market, WoW, being ruined by hardcores as they bitched and griped about casuals getting equal loot and access to elite content. So much so that today, you can't get crap as a casual player other than worthless epics from faction grinding that don't even remotely compete with hardcore PvP and Raid gear. You have a game that went from having very little raiding, to one that focuses obssessively on raiding for the measly 20% hardcore player base while shafting the other 80%.
So, you'll have to pardon my disbelief in your conclusion that hardcores have a right to whine
O.o so you are looking for a game that would give a casual player a better and easier way then the hardcore player to get the best gear... Do you not see the flaw in that way of thinking? By definition a hardcore player plays as much as a casual player and THEN some... so of course they will have better gear then you. If the game does not allow for that way of progression then it will not hold anyone's attention for very long. Deal with it, hardcore players will ALWAYS be better equipment and have access to MORE content then casual players just because of the fact that they play as much as you and then some more.
What do casual players do anyways? They dont raid..they dont hardcore pvp they dont level very much... so what the hell do they do when they are playing?
Maybe WoW should add a Casino in Orgrimar for casual players to just win gear that way, a way for them to use the usless WoW gold on slot machines so casual players can win the best gear in the game without even setting foot out of the city.
Well you hit it on the nose,when you said "Even my brother can read an online guide".
That is the part that has dumbed down FFXI's skillset.Every single aspect of the game is online for those to read.If not for the online community,99% of the gamers would not have a clue or would be seriously stuck.It is probably these so called leetist like your 8 yr old brother who could not perform the renkai chart and formed this rebellious union of players that think it is better to skip the renkai chart altogether and solo weapon skill.Magic Bursts? a thing of the past,nobody is there to enjoy the game they want speed leveling.
The game "IS" designed to be quite skillful and VERY hard to play and figure out,do not let weak players and online contributions sway from the reality.
End game.The players go online read the setup and play style ,then tell players all they have to do is "Stun"ya that takes no skill really,but how would you know what to do and when if not for the net?The first go around for all players,they might not even of had many friends or players that could stun,it is only because the game is so old,everyone has several 75 jobs now witch makes the whole game 150% easier.In the beginning it took players forever to find out where they could xp party or where certain quests were and what they involved.Instead of a group of 6 all decked out in the best gear the game has to offer,we all started with no sub jobs and simpleton gear.
Time sinks?? quite obvious to figure out with a little thought,it helps make a game last,what is the hurry to finish a game?It has ZERO to do with casual or hardcore,it is SUPPOSE to be about enjoying all apsects of the game,it is not a timesink if you enjoy playing the game.If it feels like a timesink,then you should not be playign the game,because you obviously are not enjoying it.If you do not want a game to last,how lame would it be if Square Enix just makes everyone a level 75 as soon as you install the game?ya quite lame really,no sense even playing the game then.You are suppose to feel a sense of accomplishment,because of the fact it is suppose to take so long and the road is a hard ,tedious one or at least in the beginning it was.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
You make some good points. I agree that some things in FFXI just took too long. But if something doesn't take a lot of effort, it just doesn't feel as rewarding when you finish it.
I remember when my friends and I beat the first dragon in the CoP storyline. It was insane! He wiped the floor with us so many times. We had to try a multitude of job combinations and when we finally beat him.. we couldn't believe it. We were so happy
Maybe if they kept FFXIV challenging like FFXI, but made it less of a time sink? I just think AF wouldn't feel all that great if anyone could get the whole set in under 2 hours with minimal effort. NM/HNM camping definitely was a time sink and could use a much better implamentation.
I think the biggest issue i have with ffxi is the patching process no matter how great your machine or system or internet it will normally take about 9 hours to patch the game from a fresh install.
The other issue and this is one that just drives me nuts. The mob clasification system you target a mob and it reads "easy" you then die to that mob. You read another mob and it says "incredibly tough" and you paste it into the floor.
I understand that Square wanted different classes to be good against different mobs and to use tactics but when i first leveled i didnt even bother with anything other than Bunnies, Bats and worms outside of sandoria. If only they would put in proper classification to tell me whats hard and whats not and not require me to have a great tome sat by the side of my desk that i have to look up when ever i pull anything.
The other issue is that square purposfully excludes people from content by only providing 1 of that content, what im talking about is the end game system where you HAVE to sign up to a linkshell that specifically deals with 1 aspect of the end game. You then have to comit somthing like 6 months of solid playing before you even have a chance of aquiring the item. Then after you have done that 1 instance you cant do it again for 3 days or somthing along those lines.
I ask my mate, why not just form your own linkshell and go do it without all the others he said "o no i cant do that because they know the last time it was killed and would know when it is going to spawn". That sort of aspect of a game where you have to use a callendar to acuratly log when mobs was killed its just retarded.
There is hardcore when a game is difficult and rewarding and then there is over the top retarded design, end game raids may consist of loads of people killing giant monsters (which i enjoy) BUT if you have to comit to that system for 6 months before you get any rewards then i wont bother. Its like going to work for 6 months and not being paid then after you are paid you have to work another 6 months to be paid again.
Casualisation of a game doesnt make it less fun it just opens it up to more people. and you can sit there and say"but i dont want more people" BUT companies make money and if they dont have a wide enough audience a game folds. Square have a good history of producing games and so i dont expect the new ffxiv game to flop OR be rushed out. I just hope thye provide those of us that dont have 80 hours a week to comit to a game to be able to enjoy it.
They've already realized this in FFXI. The content now is completely different from the content in 2003. But SE never replaces anything, so it may look like nothing has changed. But it has. 95% of the new content has been well received, there's casual and hardcore in a good mix. For small and big groups. Large level range. Fast events (15~30mins) and longer (max 100mins). They will start in FFXIV from where they left off in XI, and I can assure you that you will like it.
You may still need to work for longer period of time for the best gear, but there will be alternatives. It won't be as easy as in WoW, but the dev team knows how to make an instance you enjoy doing for long time.
Your lil bro is 8 and has been playing since he was 6? Hmm I thought you had to be atleast 13 to play but oh well. And he has done everything he can do? Hmmm so he has complete AF2+1 and Relic weps? I find that freakin hard to believe, unless your lil bro is some kind of whiz kid, and fine tunes his version of Linux for fun.
That and that.
"TO MICHAEL!"
QFT.
WoW was fun, but it certainly is easy especially when you use things like Deadly Boss mod, Decursive, and a few other game aids (which EVERY group makes EVERYONE download or you can't go). You go on a dungeon run in Kara and the mod has the Boss' programming practically loaded into it.
I remember the Maiden of Virtue fight. The Maiden of Virtue does not have phases in her fight. She acts the same from the start of the fight to the end.
First, you need a Paladin. Then you load up DBMod. The fight starts and while you are watching your screen, you get messages:
"Holy Fire incoming in 10 seconds."
"Repentence in 10 seconds."
Paladin starts spamming stuff and that's pretty much the whole fight. The only time that was fun was when you DIDN'T take a Paladin.
This while you are watching a timer bar tick down to when she is actually going to cast it. I mean.. come on, lol. Again, it was fun but all you have to do is when the idiot buzzer goes off you need to run, or cast this/that, or stop casting because now the boss is coming to get you, where's the challenge? The only challenge in WoW is if you can hit the right skill when the mod says "Hit so-and-so skill Now!"
FFXI you never knew the boss was coming for you until he actually came for you. It taught you how to work in a team. And as you said, you did this for small mobs the entire game.
No one says Wow sucks, it's just that FFXI players want to keep the game like it is because we find it more challenging... deleveling and all.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Seriously just getting to a xp camp in FFXI took preparation and carfully planed moves so u wouldnt get aggro and whipe the party.
I miss it, I havent played in some time but I can barely wait for FFXIV I dono what ill do lol
well hardcore is just that, its taking away the things that make games easy and make you do it the hard way.
1. no magic buss from one side of teh world to the other, you must run the hole way manually
2. no auto target, u must target manually
3. no solo leveling, u must level with a group and kill 100 gobs in the exact same manner.
Thats hardcore!!
how is this topic still going?
make your sig smaller its annoying as hell. Thanks
Right on, playing both FFXI and WoW for 3 years a piece, FFXI takes skill. PERIOD. Ya WoW u need skill, but u have alot of mods that will help u out, FFXI, had windower, PC only, which at the time I played would get u banned, if not prema banned. FFXIV got me going CRAZY.
I still say SE is incapable of making a casual mmo like WoW or War. Just different design philoshphies, and different culture. As an American, I can say, that our society believes that we should get something for nothing, and our mmos in the west, will even grant you xp for tripping over a log. And maybe, you might get an ultra rare piece of equipment to make you feel better after the fall.
If FFXI's recent developments over the last few years, is any indication, SE believes that casualness still comes with a price. Sure, ZNM's are pretty casual, but it you want the top of the line shit, you gotta bust ass to get it. The announcement that campaign will drop items now (basically using the public quest system of WAR, and tying it to campaign), adds a way for players who don't like to do endgame, to get certain items. They didn't tell us what kind of synth mats will drop (like khorma ores, or raxa), or what kind of loot the generals will drop, but they did mention ancient currency from dyna will drop. Now, that makes campaign really freaking awesome. Can make some gil, and xp at the same time. Good for the casual player, but, you still gotta go and earn it. You have to be part of a union (the game will place you in a union when you talk to the guy after you get your tags), and then the loot will be distrubuted to those with sufficent contribution (none of this, 3 bard songs, and you get loot shit).
FoV, adds that little extra mp for ppl that like to solo, but, you only get it once an hour. Also, gives you those tabs for the nice refresh, regen, etc, bonuses that help as well in the wild.
The treasure chests that fall in the old areas also grant items to help ppl solo (and even low lvl pts in the dunes). While all of this is too little to late to the ppl that left (and still judge this game from what it was when CoP launched), it still, makes the game a lot better for us players that still play. SE does casual the right way. They don't compromise their games ideals, to reward ppl, who don't put the effort in, over ppl that do.
MMOs should carry the same value as the rest of life, you get back what you put in.
QFT.
WoW was fun, but it certainly is easy especially when you use things like Deadly Boss mod, Decursive, and a few other game aids (which EVERY group makes EVERYONE download or you can't go). You go on a dungeon run in Kara and the mod has the Boss' programming practically loaded into it.
I remember the Maiden of Virtue fight. The Maiden of Virtue does not have phases in her fight. She acts the same from the start of the fight to the end.
First, you need a Paladin. Then you load up DBMod. The fight starts and while you are watching your screen, you get messages:
"Holy Fire incoming in 10 seconds."
"Repentence in 10 seconds."
Paladin starts spamming stuff and that's pretty much the whole fight. The only time that was fun was when you DIDN'T take a Paladin.
This while you are watching a timer bar tick down to when she is actually going to cast it. I mean.. come on, lol. Again, it was fun but all you have to do is when the idiot buzzer goes off you need to run, or cast this/that, or stop casting because now the boss is coming to get you, where's the challenge? The only challenge in WoW is if you can hit the right skill when the mod says "Hit so-and-so skill Now!"
FFXI you never knew the boss was coming for you until he actually came for you. It taught you how to work in a team. And as you said, you did this for small mobs the entire game.
eh? lol I prety much knew when I was gonna get popped. The thunk thunk of my Gax right b4 I needed to do a SC. War/Thf
No one says Wow sucks, it's just that FFXI players want to keep the game like it is because we find it more challenging... deleveling and all.