I'd like to a see a game with no end-game because there is no leveling or advancement of any kind.
No new gear other then for cosmetic purposes.
No increasing stats, just a set pool to adjust based on what kind of character you want to make.
Freedom to choose your characters set of skills and create your own template, but without the actual grinding of skill ups. But with enough limitations on choice so not everyone is an uber tank-mage.
So kind of like the old UO test servers where you could create a 7x GM in a few minutes.
What would people do? What DID they do?
Explore the world fighting monsters, fight each other, create homes/furniture/stuff to fill their homes.
Now....
Imagine a game where you could do all of that... but they ALSO include a vast storyline that takes you to the far ends of the world and back again doing all kinds of adventures and exploring all kinds of cool and interesting places.... but it was entirely optional.
Now imagine that system where you also were able to make choices as the story progressed that determined if your character was good or evil. But also imagine if you didn't do the story you had ways to make your character goor or evil based off the actions you did do.
And the more stuff you do, be it for good or evil, or if you choose neither and walk the middle line, the more fame your character accumulates which grants special titles and gear (only for show, no stats). And even your fame and alignment was optional and could be locked in place.
Where the ONLY advancement your character made was how you chose to advance them.
Throw in an achievement system ala WOW so people can brag about their accomplishments along with titles to display... or not display...
To the OP: From reading your post, you'd be happier playing a single-player RPG, no MMO is really going to fill your needs.
Doubtful.
There are many who enjoy online RPGs (MMORPGs) because they are massively multiplayer, but they like to have the option to solo.
They want the option to group up and be a part of the community, but they like to do their thing.
You can feel like you are part of the vast online world just by seeing other players running around without interacting with anyone.
Massively multiplayer online games just have a certain feel to them... going into town and seeing all these different players, running across people out in the wilds... even if you don't want to interact with them it's important that they are there.
It's just a feeling... something single player RPG will never match.
I'd like to a see a game with no end-game because there is no leveling or advancement of any kind. No new gear other then for cosmetic purposes. No increasing stats, just a set pool to adjust based on what kind of character you want to make. Freedom to choose your characters set of skills and create your own template, but without the actual grinding of skill ups. But with enough limitations on choice so not everyone is an uber tank-mage. So kind of like the old UO test servers where you could create a 7x GM in a few minutes.
What would people do? What DID they do? Explore the world fighting monsters, fight each other, create homes/furniture/stuff to fill their homes. Now.... Imagine a game where you could do all of that... but they ALSO include a vast storyline that takes you to the far ends of the world and back again doing all kinds of adventures and exploring all kinds of cool and interesting places.... but it was entirely optional. Now imagine that system where you also were able to make choices as the story progressed that determined if your character was good or evil. But also imagine if you didn't do the story you had ways to make your character goor or evil based off the actions you did do. And the more stuff you do, be it for good or evil, or if you choose neither and walk the middle line, the more fame your character accumulates which grants special titles and gear (only for show, no stats). And even your fame and alignment was optional and could be locked in place. Where the ONLY advancement your character made was how you chose to advance them. Throw in an achievement system ala WOW so people can brag about their accomplishments along with titles to display... or not display... Would you play that game?
I would play this game but its devs better deliver massively on all this stuff. If it turns out that all these big concepts were just window dressing for another grind or relagated me as 'player content' for the 'hardcore', I would drop it at lightning speed.
I might be tired of leveling based advance systems but there are other aspects of MMOs I am even more tired of.
I sort of halfway agree with the OP and I've said similar things myself. But for me it's raiding that I hate while I love grouping, or at least a certain type of grouping.
For me raiding means large numbers of people, tightly organized, following orders, having to play the part of a flunky to your guild master, and playing by a schedule that somebody else sets for you. I absolutey hate that playstlye.
For me good grouping means a small number of people, very informal, everyone has their say, you don't have to join a club (guild) to be a part of it, you don't have to subordinate yourself to anyone, and you play by your own schedule.
I like being able to log in, hook up with a group and have fun without all the BS associated with raiding. Unfortunately it's becoming almost impossible to find that sort of gameplay anymore. It seems that this sort of "casual" grouping is going the way of the dodo. Nowdays everything is raid or solo and nothing in between it seems. It seems that grouping only exists anymore in the form of small scale raiding. Or at best it's a quick run through an instance and then it's back to soloing.
This is why I've been feeling incredibly nostalgic for EQ lately even with the problems it had. I truly despised the end-game in EQ but loved the grouping side of the game while leveling up.
The real problem here is that developers try to please everyone in one game. Game companies should make games that cater primarily to soloers all the way through and at the end-game too. They should also make games that cater to the small group crowd and always to the small group crowd. And then they should make games that cater to the raiders and do it right from the beginning, not wait till people have hit max level.
They really can't satisfy all of these preferences in one game. You can't make a game that is solo-able all the way through without killing grouping unless you make solo progress noticably slower, which seems to really piss off the all-solo players. And you can't reserve end-game progress for raiders without pissing off both solo and small group players. But if you don't require people to raid to progress then there is no reason to raid so then the raiders are pissed off.
Anyway, I know what I want and what I want is the sort of friendly, open, pick up groups going all the time like there was in EQ back in the old days. Groups all over the place all the time so that I can just log in and hop into a group without pre-scheduling it and pre-planning it and making myself someone's bitch in a highly organized guild. I also want the solo-all-the-time players and the big-raid players to get what they want, just not in the same game that I'm in because I know that doesn't work.
I like people, who comment, that they want to play 15 bucks a month to solo, just because they can chat and there are people running around.
Nearly a decade ago there was NWN. Which featured basically the same thing, and the only thing you had to pay for was the base game.
Nowadays you have GW, which is even more so - you can do EVERYTHING solo, no interaction IG needed at all. But why hasn't it beaten WoW yet? It's 100% casual game, down to the core. You can't be more casual, unles you're Free Realms. And if it's not AAA, it's, quite likely, AA title.
See, here, I disproved your point, There IS a game like that, and quite popular. But not popular enough. The secret to WoW popularity lies in something completely different.
And it's about time th genres separated. Casual people can't enjoy grouping, outside of their "territory of comfort". We can't enjoy solo, unless it can't be helped at the moment (and the shorter it is, the better). We WANT to PLAY with other people. Not just see them and chat with them - I can do that in (gasp!) Real Life. Why would I need my best friend to play a game with me (with a monthly sub, no less), when I can give him a call and just go strolling around, or play tabletop game, or my 360, or a round of HoMM? Why? I don't, so I go to MMO to meet strangers, forge relationships through fights, ordeals and rewards. That's my gameplay experience. You want the other one - knock yourself out. But I can't filter you, from the guys I would prefer to play with. Why can't devs do that for us?
Better yet, create a new type of server. Call it "for stupid lifeless geeks only", I don't care. Just give us the option.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Originally posted by Neanderthal Anyway, I know what I want and what I want is the sort of friendly, open, pick up groups going all the time like there was in EQ back in the old days. Groups all over the place all the time so that I can just log in and hop into a group without pre-scheduling it and pre-planning it and making myself someone's bitch in a highly organized guild. I also want the solo-all-the-time players and the big-raid players to get what they want, just not in the same game that I'm in because I know that doesn't work.
The only reason it doesn't work is because developers make solo gear < small group gear < raid gear.
People would still raid and group up even if the gear was all the same as solo gear just because the dungeons and raids are there to do.
All you need is an achievement system ala WOW to give people a number to tie around their e-peen and you win!
Make achievements actual accomplishments that are rewards in and of themselves, not gear treadmills.
There is a game that has all of these things you guys are talking about its been out for every long time and it was Asheron's Call the real issue is that now its is not a game template any Development company will follow again and the reason is world of warcraft killed that kind of genre of gameplay possible for good....
Everyone is stuck in a loop of crap because no one wants to see it, look at the last 2 expansions of wow what did they really offer nothing they just repeated the same thing over and over. DO your raids get your pve armor then arena gear and thats it arent you guys kinda tired of that grind its just a rinse and repeat they offered nothing new nothing soloable at all...
You guys and alot of us are chosing the blue pill instead of the red to awakin from that long sleep of moronic games that have made in the last 8 years...and these gaming places like Mmorpg, ign, gametrailers and many others arent helping because there being paid to push the crap out there....how else would they be here....so till the time we choose the red pill gaming will never change and all you will see are the rehashed replayed same moronic gameplay...
Till we say NO MORE!!!!!
Its up to us to change it developers will not listen till it hits them in the one place it counts there money.........end of line.
Originally posted by Neanderthal Anyway, I know what I want and what I want is the sort of friendly, open, pick up groups going all the time like there was in EQ back in the old days. Groups all over the place all the time so that I can just log in and hop into a group without pre-scheduling it and pre-planning it and making myself someone's bitch in a highly organized guild. I also want the solo-all-the-time players and the big-raid players to get what they want, just not in the same game that I'm in because I know that doesn't work.
The only reason it doesn't work is because developers make solo gear < small group gear < raid gear.
People would still raid and group up even if the gear was all the same as solo gear just because the dungeons and raids are there to do.
All you need is an achievement system ala WOW to give people a number to tie around their e-peen and you win!
Make achievements actual accomplishments that are rewards in and of themselves, not gear treadmills.
The grouping I'm talking about from EQ happened mostly because it was the faster way to make experience (with maybe the exception of some very solo friendly classes). It probably also had something to do with the lack of instances and people needing to share content but mostly it happened because it was more efficient.
I really don't believe that there will ever be much grouping in any situation in which solo is the most efficient way to play.
The grouping I'm talking about from EQ happened mostly because it was the faster way to make experience (with maybe the exception of some very solo friendly classes). It probably also had something to do with the lack of instances and people needing to share content but mostly it happened because it was more efficient. I really don't believe that there will ever be much grouping in any situation in which solo is the most efficient way to play.
Players will always find the fastest/most efficient way to do things.
To counter this, you'd have to make solo, small group, and large group rewards (including experience gain) exactly the same... an hour of solo play would net the same reward as an hour in a group. You'd have to balance out gains. Solo you'd gain slower but more each time, in a group you gain faster but less each time... seperate yet equal.
Or like I said just get rid of leveling and any advancement systems and people will still group up just because they are online in a massively multiplayer game.. and because they can.
The grouping I'm talking about from EQ happened mostly because it was the faster way to make experience (with maybe the exception of some very solo friendly classes). It probably also had something to do with the lack of instances and people needing to share content but mostly it happened because it was more efficient. I really don't believe that there will ever be much grouping in any situation in which solo is the most efficient way to play.
Players will always find the fastest/most efficient way to do things.
To counter this, you'd have to make solo, small group, and large group rewards (including experience gain) exactly the same... an hour of solo play would net the same reward as an hour in a group. You'd have to balance out gains. Solo you'd gain slower but more each time, in a group you gain faster but less each time... seperate yet equal.
Or like I said just get rid of leveling and any advancement systems and people will still group up just because they are online in a massively multiplayer game.. and because they can.
Then why don't players group up in, say, WoW, for more than one-two dungeon runs? They can, right?
And what the hell are you talking about? Do you even read your posts? Faster, but less, slower, but more? What? Esxperience/rewards/giggles?
See, the problem is, when an Average Spheric Gamer In Vacuum has the option to solo and the option to group, while recieving basically the same rewards, he WILL go solo, unless he is playing with an already established friend. That's the rule in any kind of MMO.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
I completely agree with the OP. And once again: There's a very easy solution to that. It's called: Henchmen
If i would be able to use my own alts (or other offline players) as Henchmen to form my own group or raid, then you wouldn't have to cut the grouping/raid content out of a game, simply make it more accessible for those who desire to play in smaller groups or solo. The ressources/money to get those henchmen running would make it for the time waste that it can be to organize "free self controlled" group or raids. That can be easily balanced.
Ah but guess what... Been saying that for 10 years to everybody so now i'm just looking forward to put it in my own game since i gave up a long time ago to see it happen in any others. (NPC Henchmen is a step, but not good enough since it removes a lot of the immersion and make you feel even more "alone together" in an online games instead of putting you in contact with other "real player character". So... don't bother me with guild wars henchmen system.)
Creativity : The ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods or interpretations; using originality, progressiveness, or imagination.
To the OP: From reading your post, you'd be happier playing a single-player RPG, no MMO is really going to fill your needs.
stop telling him what he wants.
Why? He got to the boards, he made his opinion and mindset public, so people discuss it. If anything, he brought it on himself, by posting this. It's the basic thing.
Stop telling us what we want to tell him, what we think he wants.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Ya the 11 million people playing WoW alone for it's raid model is clearly getting in their way. The only thing actually getting in their way is the loads of money piling up.
Musicals also made a lot of money. The point I'm making isn't that the raid/group model isn't successful, but that focusing on it as the guiding principle in making MMOGs might be unnecesarily limiting the potential success of the MMOG industry. In the days of early musicals, you were laughed out of the studio if you pitched an idea that didn't have song and dance numbers. If you were an actor or actress, you had to be able to sing and dance, or else someone would be dubbing over you.
What happened to musicals? Where are they now? Here's the thing; the concept that movies had to have song and dance numbers limited many things about movies. Everything - from hiring actors to developing plots and scores - had to accomodate the musical format. My point is that a similar assumptive structuring has gripped MMOG development since EQ first came out. For instance, let's look at class and subclass or talent development; the developer must design such things keeping in mind the "role" the character will be able to fulfill in groups and raids. End product of class structures, of gear lines, of abilities and stats must be "balanced" in regard to being able to fulfill an end-game role. Every part of the game is defined in terms of stats and efficiency - dps, crowd control, armor, health, healing ability - in terms of what is most efficient for end game raiding and grouping.
What could be developed in terms of an MMOG if developers cast off these "end game" balancing constraints?
Well, that's for another part of my analysis.
Musicals are where they always have been, on stage making loads of cash. Because despite that you hate musicals (and I hate musicals) there are lots of people with lots of money that still to this day love musicals. So the model hasn't disappeared.
What is incorrect is your thought that all original movies were musicals, never was the case so that analogy breaks down. But still to this day they do also make musical movies, that Across the Universe that was based on beatles music, and the one that was recently out based on Abba music. Both movies did really well because once again there are lots of people that still like musicals.
But to get some facts right, there was theatre before there was musicals. There continues to be non musical theatre. There were movies before there were musical movies, and there continues to be both non musical and musical movies.
People like different things, you don't like raids and they make MMOs that don't involve any raids of any kind (Asheron's Call is one of them). There are people who do like raids and continue to play games that have raids, and they always will.
You are trying to say the whole market should change because of your particular interests combined with your very flawed analogies. There are several newer MMOs, and older MMOs, that do not require raiding. Of the original big 3 MMOs (UO, EQ, AC) 1 required groups to get things done and 2 didn't. Of all the MMOs out now, raiding is the minority of MMOs but at the same time the most populated MMOs have raiding. So clearly there are people that like it.
Just stick to non raid MMOs and you won't have to worry about it.
Then why don't players group up in, say, WoW, for more than one-two dungeon runs? They can, right? And what the hell are you talking about? Do you even read your posts? Faster, but less, slower, but more? What? Esxperience/rewards/giggles? See, the problem is, when an Average Spheric Gamer In Vacuum has the option to solo and the option to group, while recieving basically the same rewards, he WILL go solo, unless he is playing with an already established friend. That's the rule in any kind of MMO.
They can and often do.
I don't know what you are talking about it sounds just fine to me. Apparently your reading comprehension is a little off. I thought it was fairly obvious I meant making more experience/rewards per kill but killing fewer when solo or when in a group you kill more enemies but each one gives you a little less. Which is the way it works in most MMOs just the numbers are a bit off.
You are correct. This is why we have guilds and friends lists. We only do pugs when we are forced to. Can you meet good people and make new friends in pugs? Sure.
Can you still pug and make new friends if you are not forced to group up? Sure. The only person holding you back from doing group stuff is yourself.
It's the min/maxer power-gaming "must be efficient" attitude that makes people forsake grouping in favor of soloing.
Originally posted by Antarious Can you provide the link where a Blizzard rep said 100% of their player base actually raids... Have they ever said what percentage of their player base raids? Back in vanilla WoW, they did .. I seem to recall that it was something like 4% of the playerbase had ever achieved a bosskill in Naxxramas, (when it was a level 60 instance), but unfortunately I can't find the source. Haven't seen any numbers for raid percentages in the expansions though; I imagine it's considerably higher since they shifted down from 40/20 to 25/10 man raids and put in heroic dungeons to bridge the gear gap. Just also want to say that I agree with the OP; I play an MMO for the community, not the raids and it always irritates me when 25 man raiders swagger around wearing top-level epics thinking that it makes them "better" than everyone else. I've been there; raiding ain't hard.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I don't think I would want to play the kind of game the OP has in mind, but I agree with some of the key points:
Multiple ways to achieve the same goals, is always a good thing. I do think MMORPGs should encourage grouping by making xp and gear easier to get in a group than solo, but if someone wants to spend a year achieving the same thing solo that another player does in groups, why not let him?
Making a full group a requirement to level fast is a no-brainer. I'm surprised so many games make soloing the fastest way to level. After all, doing a mindless levelling grind with somene is just about the best excuse to chat with strangers, and people who get sucked into the social experience tend to keep their subscription active longer. Still, let there be ways to get xp solo, even if it is slow. There's no reason to alienate people who don't have time to group up every time they get online.
As for acquiring equipment, I've always despised the no-drop/BoP flags. If all items in the game are craftable, or can be traded, the solo player can just spend an eternety gathering wealth to buy what he can't get on his own. Grouping up to get rare drops from non-soloable content is of course going to be faster, but once again multiple ways to achieve the same thing is good.
Power gamers will choose the fastest way to get something done, i.e. grouping. Let them.
Casual gamers will choose the fast way if it is convenient. Settle for soloing if not. Let them.
The grouping I'm talking about from EQ happened mostly because it was the faster way to make experience (with maybe the exception of some very solo friendly classes). It probably also had something to do with the lack of instances and people needing to share content but mostly it happened because it was more efficient. I really don't believe that there will ever be much grouping in any situation in which solo is the most efficient way to play.
Players will always find the fastest/most efficient way to do things.
To counter this, you'd have to make solo, small group, and large group rewards (including experience gain) exactly the same... an hour of solo play would net the same reward as an hour in a group. You'd have to balance out gains. Solo you'd gain slower but more each time, in a group you gain faster but less each time... seperate yet equal.
Or like I said just get rid of leveling and any advancement systems and people will still group up just because they are online in a massively multiplayer game.. and because they can.
Then why don't players group up in, say, WoW, for more than one-two dungeon runs? They can, right?
And what the hell are you talking about? Do you even read your posts? Faster, but less, slower, but more? What? Esxperience/rewards/giggles?
See, the problem is, when an Average Spheric Gamer In Vacuum has the option to solo and the option to group, while recieving basically the same rewards, he WILL go solo, unless he is playing with an already established friend. That's the rule in any kind of MMO.
So what if your hypothesis might be true. City of Heroes tends to debunk that theory, but whatever. Are you saying there is no room in the genre for even one frakking solo friendly MMO? You know, where soloers get the same progression as any other play style. Not one single MMO offers that, even City of Heroes ends up making you group towards the higher end soley due to unbelievably slow progression if you don't and thanks to raids like Hami having the best quality enhancements, which are still slightly better than crafted ones even to this day.
To hell with you people. I sincerely hope Bioware follows through with their promises and treats soloers equally along with groupers and raiders, since they plan to have all of it in their MMO. If they don't, then it's just another crappy MMO I won't be playing.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Meleagar, well said I totally agree. This nonsense that if you do not group or raid why even bother playing mmos is ridiculous. I also think the raid endgame mentality has held the genre back. SOE is trying to address this I think with Free Realms. I would love to see a Free Realms style game for adults. I have only grouped once in Free Realms but and very social in the game. I have a really decked out toon and have a great time with the other players with no grouping.
It is totally about the online community for me not the hardcore group of players who raid. You did a good job explaining something I have been trying to say for years about mmos. Just because I like to solo does not mean I am not social in the game. There are great rewards for the developer who realizes this and creats an experience with this focus. Free Realms is a step in the right direction but I need more of a mature challenge.
I don't think I would want to play the kind of game the OP has in mind, but I agree with some of the key points: Multiple ways to achieve the same goals, is always a good thing. I do think MMORPGs should encourage grouping by making xp and gear easier to get in a group than solo, but if someone wants to spend a year achieving the same thing solo that another player does in groups, why not let him? Making a full group a requirement to level fast is a no-brainer. I'm surprised so many games make soloing the fastest way to level. After all, doing a mindless levelling grind with somene is just about the best excuse to chat with strangers, and people who get sucked into the social experience tend to keep their subscription active longer. Still, let there be ways to get xp solo, even if it is slow. There's no reason to alienate people who don't have time to group up every time they get online. As for acquiring equipment, I've always despised the no-drop/BoP flags. If all items in the game are craftable, or can be traded, the solo player can just spend an eternety gathering wealth to buy what he can't get on his own. Grouping up to get rare drops from non-soloable content is of course going to be faster, but once again multiple ways to achieve the same thing is good. Power gamers will choose the fastest way to get something done, i.e. grouping. Let them. Casual gamers will choose the fast way if it is convenient. Settle for soloing if not. Let them. Everybody wins.
Yeah, soloing in most of the games that offer it are so efficient, aren't they? Please. Even if that were the case, I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it, thanks the the incredibly crappy, boring content they tend to program for soloers, let alone the craptastic rewards that are essentially insulting.
We are talking about one game here, out of how many group centric ones? Even if it was 50 / 50 in solo vs. group games, who gives a crap, You play yours and I'll play mine. I'm sick to death of you people and the developers who think just like you. As far as I'm concerned, they should just make the games where every play style's progression is equal and the rewards are equal and let people play the way they want to without feeling like second class citizens. If you can't find enough like minded people to group with, then there's something wrong with your play style, deal with it and stop trying to force it down our throats.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
It all comes down to the EQ raised raid-junkies who want to keep the best gear for players like them are now the ones who are developing games.
For some reason they still think the gear treadmill is the primary motivation for playing a RPG or MMORPG.
It's all about working towards something rather then enjoying the journey.
The moment they make a MMORPG that focuses on enjoying the journey rather then zooming to the destination, everything will change.
FF XIV is the only MMO to ever make mention of this. Focus on character progression and story and enjoying the journey with no traditional experience point system.
Not very many details out yet, but I am super excited for a break from the level grind / gear grind raid-centric formula that EQ started.
To the OP: From reading your post, you'd be happier playing a single-player RPG, no MMO is really going to fill your needs.
The people who make this response, I have heard this a lot, just don't get it. I am very social and come up with all types of fun ways to interact with other players without grouping and raiding. Now I do like grouping and the occasion raid but they are not how I get my social interaction with other players.
I do not play single player games anymore, they just seem flat to me without other players to interact with. As a soloer I am just as committed to the game as the raiders. In some games like EQ2 I probably know more and love the game more then the raiders. I have explored ever inch of that game not just raced to endgame raiding. So why should I be denied the chance at to top tier stuff? I view these games as persistent interactive world not just a game with some reward at the end.
Also, why couldn't an mmo fill the OP's needs? The only reason would be shortsightedness on the developers part.
I don't think I would want to play the kind of game the OP has in mind, but I agree with some of the key points: Multiple ways to achieve the same goals, is always a good thing. I do think MMORPGs should encourage grouping by making xp and gear easier to get in a group than solo, but if someone wants to spend a year achieving the same thing solo that another player does in groups, why not let him? Making a full group a requirement to level fast is a no-brainer. I'm surprised so many games make soloing the fastest way to level. After all, doing a mindless levelling grind with somene is just about the best excuse to chat with strangers, and people who get sucked into the social experience tend to keep their subscription active longer. Still, let there be ways to get xp solo, even if it is slow. There's no reason to alienate people who don't have time to group up every time they get online. As for acquiring equipment, I've always despised the no-drop/BoP flags. If all items in the game are craftable, or can be traded, the solo player can just spend an eternety gathering wealth to buy what he can't get on his own. Grouping up to get rare drops from non-soloable content is of course going to be faster, but once again multiple ways to achieve the same thing is good. Power gamers will choose the fastest way to get something done, i.e. grouping. Let them. Casual gamers will choose the fast way if it is convenient. Settle for soloing if not. Let them. Everybody wins.
Yeah, soloing in most of the games that offer it are so efficient, aren't they? Please. Even if that were the case, I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it, thanks the the incredibly crappy, boring content they tend to program for soloers, let alone the craptastic rewards that are essentially insulting.
We are talking about one game here, out of how many group centric ones? Even if it was 50 / 50 in solo vs. group games, who gives a crap, You play yours and I'll play mine. I'm sick to death of you people and the developers who think just like you. As far as I'm concerned, they should just make the games where every play style's progression is equal and the rewards are equal and let people play the way they want to without feeling like second class citizens. If you can't find enough like minded people to group with, then there's something wrong with your play style, deal with it and stop trying to force it down our throats.
Did you actually read my post? I'm all for soloers being able to achieve the same end results as everyone else. I don't want MMORPGs to force grouping, just encourage it. You want a game where doing things the easy way, and doing them the hard way (convenience, and time wise) yields the same results. Fine. I wouldn't play that game, but that's just a difference of opinion. Of course there is room for games like that if someone wants to make them. What I'm sick of is games that force you to play one way to reach a goal. I want alternatives that fit more people, but I prefer it if the more social one is faster. I'd opt for the solo path due to time restrictions most of the time, but I want it to be easy to find people to play with when I do have a few hours on my hands.
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I'd like to a see a game with no end-game because there is no leveling or advancement of any kind.
No new gear other then for cosmetic purposes.
No increasing stats, just a set pool to adjust based on what kind of character you want to make.
Freedom to choose your characters set of skills and create your own template, but without the actual grinding of skill ups. But with enough limitations on choice so not everyone is an uber tank-mage.
So kind of like the old UO test servers where you could create a 7x GM in a few minutes.
What would people do? What DID they do?
Explore the world fighting monsters, fight each other, create homes/furniture/stuff to fill their homes.
Now....
Imagine a game where you could do all of that... but they ALSO include a vast storyline that takes you to the far ends of the world and back again doing all kinds of adventures and exploring all kinds of cool and interesting places.... but it was entirely optional.
Now imagine that system where you also were able to make choices as the story progressed that determined if your character was good or evil. But also imagine if you didn't do the story you had ways to make your character goor or evil based off the actions you did do.
And the more stuff you do, be it for good or evil, or if you choose neither and walk the middle line, the more fame your character accumulates which grants special titles and gear (only for show, no stats). And even your fame and alignment was optional and could be locked in place.
Where the ONLY advancement your character made was how you chose to advance them.
Throw in an achievement system ala WOW so people can brag about their accomplishments along with titles to display... or not display...
Would you play that game?
To the OP:
From reading your post, you'd be happier playing a single-player RPG, no MMO is really going to fill your needs.
Doubtful.
There are many who enjoy online RPGs (MMORPGs) because they are massively multiplayer, but they like to have the option to solo.
They want the option to group up and be a part of the community, but they like to do their thing.
You can feel like you are part of the vast online world just by seeing other players running around without interacting with anyone.
Massively multiplayer online games just have a certain feel to them... going into town and seeing all these different players, running across people out in the wilds... even if you don't want to interact with them it's important that they are there.
It's just a feeling... something single player RPG will never match.
I would play this game but its devs better deliver massively on all this stuff. If it turns out that all these big concepts were just window dressing for another grind or relagated me as 'player content' for the 'hardcore', I would drop it at lightning speed.
I might be tired of leveling based advance systems but there are other aspects of MMOs I am even more tired of.
I sort of halfway agree with the OP and I've said similar things myself. But for me it's raiding that I hate while I love grouping, or at least a certain type of grouping.
For me raiding means large numbers of people, tightly organized, following orders, having to play the part of a flunky to your guild master, and playing by a schedule that somebody else sets for you. I absolutey hate that playstlye.
For me good grouping means a small number of people, very informal, everyone has their say, you don't have to join a club (guild) to be a part of it, you don't have to subordinate yourself to anyone, and you play by your own schedule.
I like being able to log in, hook up with a group and have fun without all the BS associated with raiding. Unfortunately it's becoming almost impossible to find that sort of gameplay anymore. It seems that this sort of "casual" grouping is going the way of the dodo. Nowdays everything is raid or solo and nothing in between it seems. It seems that grouping only exists anymore in the form of small scale raiding. Or at best it's a quick run through an instance and then it's back to soloing.
This is why I've been feeling incredibly nostalgic for EQ lately even with the problems it had. I truly despised the end-game in EQ but loved the grouping side of the game while leveling up.
The real problem here is that developers try to please everyone in one game. Game companies should make games that cater primarily to soloers all the way through and at the end-game too. They should also make games that cater to the small group crowd and always to the small group crowd. And then they should make games that cater to the raiders and do it right from the beginning, not wait till people have hit max level.
They really can't satisfy all of these preferences in one game. You can't make a game that is solo-able all the way through without killing grouping unless you make solo progress noticably slower, which seems to really piss off the all-solo players. And you can't reserve end-game progress for raiders without pissing off both solo and small group players. But if you don't require people to raid to progress then there is no reason to raid so then the raiders are pissed off.
Anyway, I know what I want and what I want is the sort of friendly, open, pick up groups going all the time like there was in EQ back in the old days. Groups all over the place all the time so that I can just log in and hop into a group without pre-scheduling it and pre-planning it and making myself someone's bitch in a highly organized guild. I also want the solo-all-the-time players and the big-raid players to get what they want, just not in the same game that I'm in because I know that doesn't work.
I like people, who comment, that they want to play 15 bucks a month to solo, just because they can chat and there are people running around.
Nearly a decade ago there was NWN. Which featured basically the same thing, and the only thing you had to pay for was the base game.
Nowadays you have GW, which is even more so - you can do EVERYTHING solo, no interaction IG needed at all. But why hasn't it beaten WoW yet? It's 100% casual game, down to the core. You can't be more casual, unles you're Free Realms. And if it's not AAA, it's, quite likely, AA title.
See, here, I disproved your point, There IS a game like that, and quite popular. But not popular enough. The secret to WoW popularity lies in something completely different.
And it's about time th genres separated. Casual people can't enjoy grouping, outside of their "territory of comfort". We can't enjoy solo, unless it can't be helped at the moment (and the shorter it is, the better). We WANT to PLAY with other people. Not just see them and chat with them - I can do that in (gasp!) Real Life. Why would I need my best friend to play a game with me (with a monthly sub, no less), when I can give him a call and just go strolling around, or play tabletop game, or my 360, or a round of HoMM? Why? I don't, so I go to MMO to meet strangers, forge relationships through fights, ordeals and rewards. That's my gameplay experience. You want the other one - knock yourself out. But I can't filter you, from the guys I would prefer to play with. Why can't devs do that for us?
Better yet, create a new type of server. Call it "for stupid lifeless geeks only", I don't care. Just give us the option.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
The only reason it doesn't work is because developers make solo gear < small group gear < raid gear.
People would still raid and group up even if the gear was all the same as solo gear just because the dungeons and raids are there to do.
All you need is an achievement system ala WOW to give people a number to tie around their e-peen and you win!
Make achievements actual accomplishments that are rewards in and of themselves, not gear treadmills.
There is a game that has all of these things you guys are talking about its been out for every long time and it was Asheron's Call the real issue is that now its is not a game template any Development company will follow again and the reason is world of warcraft killed that kind of genre of gameplay possible for good....
Everyone is stuck in a loop of crap because no one wants to see it, look at the last 2 expansions of wow what did they really offer nothing they just repeated the same thing over and over. DO your raids get your pve armor then arena gear and thats it arent you guys kinda tired of that grind its just a rinse and repeat they offered nothing new nothing soloable at all...
You guys and alot of us are chosing the blue pill instead of the red to awakin from that long sleep of moronic games that have made in the last 8 years...and these gaming places like Mmorpg, ign, gametrailers and many others arent helping because there being paid to push the crap out there....how else would they be here....so till the time we choose the red pill gaming will never change and all you will see are the rehashed replayed same moronic gameplay...
Till we say NO MORE!!!!!
Its up to us to change it developers will not listen till it hits them in the one place it counts there money.........end of line.
The only reason it doesn't work is because developers make solo gear < small group gear < raid gear.
People would still raid and group up even if the gear was all the same as solo gear just because the dungeons and raids are there to do.
All you need is an achievement system ala WOW to give people a number to tie around their e-peen and you win!
Make achievements actual accomplishments that are rewards in and of themselves, not gear treadmills.
The grouping I'm talking about from EQ happened mostly because it was the faster way to make experience (with maybe the exception of some very solo friendly classes). It probably also had something to do with the lack of instances and people needing to share content but mostly it happened because it was more efficient.
I really don't believe that there will ever be much grouping in any situation in which solo is the most efficient way to play.
Players will always find the fastest/most efficient way to do things.
To counter this, you'd have to make solo, small group, and large group rewards (including experience gain) exactly the same... an hour of solo play would net the same reward as an hour in a group. You'd have to balance out gains. Solo you'd gain slower but more each time, in a group you gain faster but less each time... seperate yet equal.
Or like I said just get rid of leveling and any advancement systems and people will still group up just because they are online in a massively multiplayer game.. and because they can.
Players will always find the fastest/most efficient way to do things.
To counter this, you'd have to make solo, small group, and large group rewards (including experience gain) exactly the same... an hour of solo play would net the same reward as an hour in a group. You'd have to balance out gains. Solo you'd gain slower but more each time, in a group you gain faster but less each time... seperate yet equal.
Or like I said just get rid of leveling and any advancement systems and people will still group up just because they are online in a massively multiplayer game.. and because they can.
Then why don't players group up in, say, WoW, for more than one-two dungeon runs? They can, right?
And what the hell are you talking about? Do you even read your posts? Faster, but less, slower, but more? What? Esxperience/rewards/giggles?
See, the problem is, when an Average Spheric Gamer In Vacuum has the option to solo and the option to group, while recieving basically the same rewards, he WILL go solo, unless he is playing with an already established friend. That's the rule in any kind of MMO.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
raiding is anti-social if you ask me..everyone is off in some clone of some other instance and being told what to do by their guild leaders.
I completely agree with the OP. And once again: There's a very easy solution to that. It's called: Henchmen
If i would be able to use my own alts (or other offline players) as Henchmen to form my own group or raid, then you wouldn't have to cut the grouping/raid content out of a game, simply make it more accessible for those who desire to play in smaller groups or solo. The ressources/money to get those henchmen running would make it for the time waste that it can be to organize "free self controlled" group or raids. That can be easily balanced.
Ah but guess what... Been saying that for 10 years to everybody so now i'm just looking forward to put it in my own game since i gave up a long time ago to see it happen in any others. (NPC Henchmen is a step, but not good enough since it removes a lot of the immersion and make you feel even more "alone together" in an online games instead of putting you in contact with other "real player character". So... don't bother me with guild wars henchmen system.)
Creativity : The ability to transcend traditional ideas, rules, patterns, relationships, or the like, and to create meaningful new ideas, forms, methods or interpretations; using originality, progressiveness, or imagination.
stop telling him what he wants.
stop telling him what he wants.
Why? He got to the boards, he made his opinion and mindset public, so people discuss it. If anything, he brought it on himself, by posting this. It's the basic thing.
Stop telling us what we want to tell him, what we think he wants.
I hate WoW because it made my plush hamster kill himself, created twin clones of Hitler, punched Superboy Prime in reality, stared my dog down, spoiled my grandmother, assimilated me into the Borg, then made me into a real boy, just to make me a woman again.
Musicals also made a lot of money. The point I'm making isn't that the raid/group model isn't successful, but that focusing on it as the guiding principle in making MMOGs might be unnecesarily limiting the potential success of the MMOG industry. In the days of early musicals, you were laughed out of the studio if you pitched an idea that didn't have song and dance numbers. If you were an actor or actress, you had to be able to sing and dance, or else someone would be dubbing over you.
What happened to musicals? Where are they now? Here's the thing; the concept that movies had to have song and dance numbers limited many things about movies. Everything - from hiring actors to developing plots and scores - had to accomodate the musical format. My point is that a similar assumptive structuring has gripped MMOG development since EQ first came out. For instance, let's look at class and subclass or talent development; the developer must design such things keeping in mind the "role" the character will be able to fulfill in groups and raids. End product of class structures, of gear lines, of abilities and stats must be "balanced" in regard to being able to fulfill an end-game role. Every part of the game is defined in terms of stats and efficiency - dps, crowd control, armor, health, healing ability - in terms of what is most efficient for end game raiding and grouping.
What could be developed in terms of an MMOG if developers cast off these "end game" balancing constraints?
Well, that's for another part of my analysis.
Musicals are where they always have been, on stage making loads of cash. Because despite that you hate musicals (and I hate musicals) there are lots of people with lots of money that still to this day love musicals. So the model hasn't disappeared.
What is incorrect is your thought that all original movies were musicals, never was the case so that analogy breaks down. But still to this day they do also make musical movies, that Across the Universe that was based on beatles music, and the one that was recently out based on Abba music. Both movies did really well because once again there are lots of people that still like musicals.
But to get some facts right, there was theatre before there was musicals. There continues to be non musical theatre. There were movies before there were musical movies, and there continues to be both non musical and musical movies.
People like different things, you don't like raids and they make MMOs that don't involve any raids of any kind (Asheron's Call is one of them). There are people who do like raids and continue to play games that have raids, and they always will.
You are trying to say the whole market should change because of your particular interests combined with your very flawed analogies. There are several newer MMOs, and older MMOs, that do not require raiding. Of the original big 3 MMOs (UO, EQ, AC) 1 required groups to get things done and 2 didn't. Of all the MMOs out now, raiding is the minority of MMOs but at the same time the most populated MMOs have raiding. So clearly there are people that like it.
Just stick to non raid MMOs and you won't have to worry about it.
They can and often do.
I don't know what you are talking about it sounds just fine to me. Apparently your reading comprehension is a little off. I thought it was fairly obvious I meant making more experience/rewards per kill but killing fewer when solo or when in a group you kill more enemies but each one gives you a little less. Which is the way it works in most MMOs just the numbers are a bit off.
You are correct. This is why we have guilds and friends lists. We only do pugs when we are forced to. Can you meet good people and make new friends in pugs? Sure.
Can you still pug and make new friends if you are not forced to group up? Sure. The only person holding you back from doing group stuff is yourself.
It's the min/maxer power-gaming "must be efficient" attitude that makes people forsake grouping in favor of soloing.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I don't think I would want to play the kind of game the OP has in mind, but I agree with some of the key points:
Multiple ways to achieve the same goals, is always a good thing. I do think MMORPGs should encourage grouping by making xp and gear easier to get in a group than solo, but if someone wants to spend a year achieving the same thing solo that another player does in groups, why not let him?
Making a full group a requirement to level fast is a no-brainer. I'm surprised so many games make soloing the fastest way to level. After all, doing a mindless levelling grind with somene is just about the best excuse to chat with strangers, and people who get sucked into the social experience tend to keep their subscription active longer. Still, let there be ways to get xp solo, even if it is slow. There's no reason to alienate people who don't have time to group up every time they get online.
As for acquiring equipment, I've always despised the no-drop/BoP flags. If all items in the game are craftable, or can be traded, the solo player can just spend an eternety gathering wealth to buy what he can't get on his own. Grouping up to get rare drops from non-soloable content is of course going to be faster, but once again multiple ways to achieve the same thing is good.
Power gamers will choose the fastest way to get something done, i.e. grouping. Let them.
Casual gamers will choose the fast way if it is convenient. Settle for soloing if not. Let them.
Everybody wins.
Players will always find the fastest/most efficient way to do things.
To counter this, you'd have to make solo, small group, and large group rewards (including experience gain) exactly the same... an hour of solo play would net the same reward as an hour in a group. You'd have to balance out gains. Solo you'd gain slower but more each time, in a group you gain faster but less each time... seperate yet equal.
Or like I said just get rid of leveling and any advancement systems and people will still group up just because they are online in a massively multiplayer game.. and because they can.
Then why don't players group up in, say, WoW, for more than one-two dungeon runs? They can, right?
And what the hell are you talking about? Do you even read your posts? Faster, but less, slower, but more? What? Esxperience/rewards/giggles?
See, the problem is, when an Average Spheric Gamer In Vacuum has the option to solo and the option to group, while recieving basically the same rewards, he WILL go solo, unless he is playing with an already established friend. That's the rule in any kind of MMO.
So what if your hypothesis might be true. City of Heroes tends to debunk that theory, but whatever. Are you saying there is no room in the genre for even one frakking solo friendly MMO? You know, where soloers get the same progression as any other play style. Not one single MMO offers that, even City of Heroes ends up making you group towards the higher end soley due to unbelievably slow progression if you don't and thanks to raids like Hami having the best quality enhancements, which are still slightly better than crafted ones even to this day.
To hell with you people. I sincerely hope Bioware follows through with their promises and treats soloers equally along with groupers and raiders, since they plan to have all of it in their MMO. If they don't, then it's just another crappy MMO I won't be playing.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Meleagar, well said I totally agree. This nonsense that if you do not group or raid why even bother playing mmos is ridiculous. I also think the raid endgame mentality has held the genre back. SOE is trying to address this I think with Free Realms. I would love to see a Free Realms style game for adults. I have only grouped once in Free Realms but and very social in the game. I have a really decked out toon and have a great time with the other players with no grouping.
It is totally about the online community for me not the hardcore group of players who raid. You did a good job explaining something I have been trying to say for years about mmos. Just because I like to solo does not mean I am not social in the game. There are great rewards for the developer who realizes this and creats an experience with this focus. Free Realms is a step in the right direction but I need more of a mature challenge.
Yeah, soloing in most of the games that offer it are so efficient, aren't they? Please. Even if that were the case, I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it, thanks the the incredibly crappy, boring content they tend to program for soloers, let alone the craptastic rewards that are essentially insulting.
We are talking about one game here, out of how many group centric ones? Even if it was 50 / 50 in solo vs. group games, who gives a crap, You play yours and I'll play mine. I'm sick to death of you people and the developers who think just like you. As far as I'm concerned, they should just make the games where every play style's progression is equal and the rewards are equal and let people play the way they want to without feeling like second class citizens. If you can't find enough like minded people to group with, then there's something wrong with your play style, deal with it and stop trying to force it down our throats.
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
Gear is the real problem.
People have to be better then other people.
It all comes down to the EQ raised raid-junkies who want to keep the best gear for players like them are now the ones who are developing games.
For some reason they still think the gear treadmill is the primary motivation for playing a RPG or MMORPG.
It's all about working towards something rather then enjoying the journey.
The moment they make a MMORPG that focuses on enjoying the journey rather then zooming to the destination, everything will change.
FF XIV is the only MMO to ever make mention of this. Focus on character progression and story and enjoying the journey with no traditional experience point system.
Not very many details out yet, but I am super excited for a break from the level grind / gear grind raid-centric formula that EQ started.
The people who make this response, I have heard this a lot, just don't get it. I am very social and come up with all types of fun ways to interact with other players without grouping and raiding. Now I do like grouping and the occasion raid but they are not how I get my social interaction with other players.
I do not play single player games anymore, they just seem flat to me without other players to interact with. As a soloer I am just as committed to the game as the raiders. In some games like EQ2 I probably know more and love the game more then the raiders. I have explored ever inch of that game not just raced to endgame raiding. So why should I be denied the chance at to top tier stuff? I view these games as persistent interactive world not just a game with some reward at the end.
Also, why couldn't an mmo fill the OP's needs? The only reason would be shortsightedness on the developers part.
Yeah, soloing in most of the games that offer it are so efficient, aren't they? Please. Even if that were the case, I sure as hell wouldn't want to do it, thanks the the incredibly crappy, boring content they tend to program for soloers, let alone the craptastic rewards that are essentially insulting.
We are talking about one game here, out of how many group centric ones? Even if it was 50 / 50 in solo vs. group games, who gives a crap, You play yours and I'll play mine. I'm sick to death of you people and the developers who think just like you. As far as I'm concerned, they should just make the games where every play style's progression is equal and the rewards are equal and let people play the way they want to without feeling like second class citizens. If you can't find enough like minded people to group with, then there's something wrong with your play style, deal with it and stop trying to force it down our throats.
Did you actually read my post? I'm all for soloers being able to achieve the same end results as everyone else. I don't want MMORPGs to force grouping, just encourage it. You want a game where doing things the easy way, and doing them the hard way (convenience, and time wise) yields the same results. Fine. I wouldn't play that game, but that's just a difference of opinion. Of course there is room for games like that if someone wants to make them. What I'm sick of is games that force you to play one way to reach a goal. I want alternatives that fit more people, but I prefer it if the more social one is faster. I'd opt for the solo path due to time restrictions most of the time, but I want it to be easy to find people to play with when I do have a few hours on my hands.