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Cookie Cutter Classes
Jacobin
Member RarePosts: 1,009
I understand that not a lot of info is available for the game, so take this post as an exercise in speculation for discussion related purposes.
My impression so far is that SWTOR is generally following the EQ/WoW formula, which means yet ANOTHER game with cookie cutter class templates. By this I mean everyone in class x is basically the same as everyone else. Maybe there will be development trees, but that still means every player with that spec plays essentially the same character. Additionally, one spec is usually considered the best so most people will play it.
The main problem with this aside from the lack of uniqueness is that players are usually pigeon holed into a specific role, which leads to the boredom of being limited to one playstyle and a host of other problems like group composition (i.e. no tanks around so group can't do anything) and being forced to re-roll if a class is unsatisfactory or nerfed badly.
I guess my hope would be that every class would be able to spec into a variety of roles i.e. smuggler could for instance spec for tanking, dps, support, or crowd control. Maybe not all roles, but at least ones that use very different playstyles.
That way people can choose what they want to do, change things up if a role becomes boring, and not every smuggler will be the exact same as the others. Ideally this would be easy to do so that if a tank is not around, then someone can simply switch up their spec, and if different specs/playstyles could be combined then there would be even more uniqueness and hopefully fun. Guild Wars mastered this and is the direction I would hope things go.
Sadly, from the class descriptions we have seen so far this doesn't seem to be the case since it looks like the commando for instance appears to be restricted to heavy armor/weapons, meaning that all of them will look the same and fulfill the exact same role.
In my mind, It would be a lot more engaging for players if they had the choice to play a commando who maybe is the only class who can uyse heavy armor, but insted of only being able to use 1 weapon type and fulfill 1 role, they could choose to spec in first aid skills and equipment, or bombs that CC/DoT. This way a commando can do lots of things and the player has choice.
In the interest of having a game that is innovative, refreshing and interesting to play, I strongly hope that SWTOR will avoid the cookie cutter class pitfall and shake things up a bit by giving each class the option of viably fulfilling several roles.
Comments
I only see this as an issue assuming:
1) the game only allows one character per account
2) class roles are exceedingly rigid/inflexible
3) the developers adhere to the stagnant "holy trinity" approach to PvE encounters
Way too early to tell ... the title is misleading, because we can only speculate at this point.
I highly doubt that there would be one character per account.
However it'd make sense for there to be restrictions on playing Imperial or Republic on the same server.
Also--
I don't mean to pry, but the smuggler is a very light armored class that rely's souly on cover and quick attacks. When you stated that a smuggler being able to spec to tank, I just had to say somthing. But i get the point you're trying to get across.
(Also it isn't Commando, its Trooper).
I would like to think that there wouldn't be a need for tanks, per say. Trying to make a more star wars "realism", I doubt they would have one specific class of human size to be able to take hits from a rancor for very long, it just wouldn't seem very realistic.
This may integrate the use of other tactics, such as bots or shield walls or just simply taking out mobs from a distance, or blowing the hell out of them with something.
And when it comes to talent tree's or skill tree's, there will ALWAYS be one specific spec that is better then the rest, its damn near impossible to avoid. And everyone would want to be like that.
However, that being said I would imagine that they could put in something that gives certain skills or talents tweaks, so where that specific ability is more useful in some situations, and not in others. To further advance a sense of individualism and the desire to be more useful in some areas then others.
well the rpg in mmorpg stands for role playing game, which means the character classes have roles they play. you can call it cookie cutter but thats just how rpgs are. plenty of rpgs like neverwinter nights as an example have ways of multiclassing a character but jacks of all trades are masters of none.
and to the guy mentioning imperial vs republic, this games the old republic era of KOTOR there is no empire yet bro =p its old republic vs things like sith armirs/mandalorian rebellions/pirate fleets. all sorts of enemies really when the republic was young and new, no empire for many millenia though =D
Sith Empire, bro.
You might want to catch up on reading the game's backstory.
I think there is already a mechanic to avoid cooky-cutter-classes : Companions.
I read somewhere that you can pick up a small team of NPC followers who will adventure with you and support you in your battles. So you can mix things up quite alot, by selecting what team comes with you.
You might be a Commando who brings with him 3 NPC healers and is basically an immortal tank. Or you can be a Commando who brings with him 3 CC NPC's and takes on enemies 1 by 1 by CC'ing everyone else.
This way you "spec" or your function in any group becomes something much more than just how you spread you skill/talent points. It actually matters what companions you picked up and how you interact with them. For example, if you do some bad things, good aligned companions might leave you and your stuck with bad aligned companions who most probably wont be do-goody-healers but hardcore DPS instead.
_my 2 cents_
I can agree with the point that theree should be more than 1 option per class...
But from what I have seen so far, they seem to be "breaking the cookie cutter mold" a bit by giving people more power and more options than you normally have in MMO's.
What I mean, for example, is take your mention of the Commando class. This class is not going to only be the "armored up tank class" of the game, but in addition they are supposed to be the highest ranged dps class in the game as well. This type of thing incinuates that players role will be broader then they are in WoW for example, because you are not as "set" in to a solid role.
But, also consider the setting we are in. In the Star Wars universe, there really is not always a huge amount of customizability in how thecharacters actually looked, and this was shown in the KOTOR games. But, one thing they did have is a fair bit a customization of your gear pieces. Take for example how you built your lightsabers with various options.
Considering that it's Bioware that we are talking about here, if they follow suit with their usual formula, I expect your choices along the way to make a difference to your character and your stats, regardless if it actually rewards you with a significantly different look or not.
I dont want it to seem like I am arguing with you - again, I agree that some variety within a class is a very good thing. But Bioware is a good developer - I imagine that they are aware of this problem already and hopefully it will be addressed by the time it is released.
The biggest problem I think TOR has going for it, is that not every MMO gamer enjoys storyline, so the amount of population that doesnt will likely feel like they are left out in the cold. I expect they will be saying things similar to "if I wanted good storyline, I would play a single player RPG" - but on the opposite side of the spectrum, I am a oldschool RPG fan and I think bridging the gap between storyline and MMO's is a step that has been long overdue - thats the key element of role playing games that has been missing from MMO's up until this point.
If they stick to their guns and do this properly, I see many new people who never played MMO's before finally being welcomed to the genre. Which may or may not be a good thing - look at how many new players WoW brought to the genre and how it is hated for that. But I think TOR will be good overall for bridging that storyline gap - it will bring us players something new to MMO's, and lets be honest, over the years too many MMO's that come out feel the same - we are in dire need of something new like this.
Bioware is one of the few companies that I actually give credit where credit is due, I hope they do not dissapoint.
This thread is a waste of time. The person who started it is basically just theorycrafting some unknown fear about a game that isn't even in beta yet. They even got their "facts" about Guild Wars wrong (i.e. it doesn't allow any class to do anything, it just permits multi-classing, which is a totally different concept).
I mean, anyone who actually says that every class build in WOW actually plays the same either hasn't played WOW, or has some grudge against the game and is misreporting the facts for their own benefit.
If any of you took the OP seriously, just stop and go read anything else. There is truly nothing to see here.
^
In the first sentence I wrote, I basically said that yes this is speculation based on little info. God forbid I discuss an issue that is interesting and concerning to me on a gaming forum. No one forced you to read it, so if you have nothing to add then just move along.
The reason I am concerned is that recent cookie cutter releases like AoC and Warhammer were games that lost mass amounts of players after the first 2 months largely in part due to unineresting gameplay.
If SWTOR follows a similar path, then I see it being another 1 or 2 month game where once most people have gone through the content, there is no reason to stay because the gameplay is not innovative and just a rehash of the same thing people have been playing for years.
My only 'agenda' is the desire to play a game that is worth my time and money.
Erm; that's not what the "role playing" part of RPG means. At all.
It's about taking the role (i.e. the persona) of a fictional character and participating in a game focused around them and their adventure which you experience vicariously.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
The more I read up on this game and the more I think about it the more I think this game is going to be a hybrid version of Guild Wars.
and more i read about the game, the more i think its going to be a player controlled environment, with pvp and rvr in planetary control, crafting, housing, the works!
and more i read about the game, the more i think its going to be a player controlled environment, with pvp and rvr in planetary control, crafting, housing, the works!
lol yeah...whatever.
The problem today, most MMO fans accept being typecast by the developers and continue to play even though the games get more rigid by the year.
Funny thing is the "rpg" in the mmorpg title means freedom to play your character as you want, which we know won't be possible in this game as in many others.
Many people don't grasp why SWG imploded with NGE, it was removing the freedom to choose how to play your charater by enforcing typecast classes. The original SWG was a true rpg, this game surely can't be considered one.
and more i read about the game, the more i think its going to be a player controlled environment, with pvp and rvr in planetary control, crafting, housing, the works!
lol yeah...whatever.
its true.
THey have stated this is star wars, there will be conflict.
Many planets are faction controlled, while others are gonna have to be fought over.
They said this will have all the trimmings of every other AAA mmorpg out there (crafting, social points, etc)
nothing they have said indicates a version of guild wars at all.
RPG doesn't mean sandbox.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
and more i read about the game, the more i think its going to be a player controlled environment, with pvp and rvr in planetary control, crafting, housing, the works!
i cant tell if this is sarcasm or for real .... on the off chance it isn't sarcasm, you got a link to where they say all that will be in game?
Playing: EVE Online
Favorite MMOs: WoW, SWG Pre-cu, Lineage 2, UO, EQ, EVE online
Looking forward to: Archeage, Kingdom Under Fire 2
KUF2's Official Website - http://www.kufii.com/ENG/ -
QFE
I just don't get how some people (OP) can bitch about something that isn't final, and we, the future players, know little about. I swear these forums expose me to far too many cry babies. I'm going to go read a book.
I love what I have heard so far and have been looking forward to this game since um, i read the Bioware press release on March 13th 2006 and hoped it could be a Star Wars mmo.
many of us are fed up with cookie cutter group compositions, and the never ending dilemma of finding a tank when you need it most. And don't get me started with healers. I don't think TOR will be different from other MMOs, but I hope that in the future, MMO developers design MMOs that do not require a tank or a healer in order to complete a dungeon. This cookie cutter compositions for dungeons what it does is that it divides the community and do not encourage grouping.
I will play this game for sure as I am interested in the smuggler class and hope to have fun with it, not to mention I am a big fan of Star Wars. For the Sith!
Its too early to judge and whine.
But I really really hope they have healers in there.
There are many of us that love to play healers or even tanks.
Forcing everyone to go DPS is a bad idea but thats just my opinion.
This is a lil off topic but i hope they expand to maybe include more classes later on. Some say the fall of SWG was TOO many classes but thats horses$%#. Every class in that game was usefull ( minus image desinger for the most part) . I loved the fact if ya wanted to be a crafter you were a crafter and then some merchant in order to have vendors and what not. Kindda why i prefer 1 character per server even tho im an alt junkie. I say if ya wanna be a fighter be a fighter that doesnt have an alt crafter.