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Wake UP Developers!!!!!
vazghoul666
Member Posts: 53
What is it with mmo creators that they dont realize why people quit their games? most mmo's out there are actually pretty fun, that is until you reach about 1/3 to 1/2 way through their leveling system. How many games have you quit or rerolled 2-5 times once you reach levels 20-25? It may seem like a different reason for each game but overall it really the same reason the level grind becomes mindless grinding doesnt matter what game you play their system varies only in how many quests they cram in throughout to lessen the mob grind. Whats the point in having 10 classes you can pick from if they expect it to take you 6 months to level a single class and even long term players dont normally play a mmo for more than 1-2 years.
Developers wake up, you want to keep and hold onto subscribers? Lower leveling time by 1/2 and watch as your average subscription length doubles and triples. Personally theres quite afew games i would have played and leveled several chars and experienced long term end game on multiple chars instead of quitting after the first max char or in many cases at levels 20-25.
How many of you on here do the same im guessing theres alot of us that are the people who find grinding the same mob for 5 hours to get 1 level doesnt sound exciting.
Comments
You've pretty much described my entire history of playing MMOs.
There's two things I wonder, though...
1) are you and I in the majority or minority? I'm thikning the latter as wehenver I join an MMO, almost everyone in the guild I am in has no problem leveling to the cap and even getting there before I am even half way.
2) even if the leveling was accelerated, would I still be playing more than the 6-9 months? I mean, maybe that's just the point we get to when we are sick of the game, and the level ceiling we are hitting is just an incidental result of the playstyle. If after 6 months I'm going to be moving on anyway, no level change would fix that.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
How typical of the "I want it now generation". Pick a class and stick with it, these games level too fast to start with.
ive been playing online games since muds, in my 12 years or so theres been several games ive played for 2-3 years reached level cap on multiple chars. The problem isnt playstyle the problem is mmo's regardless of what they add are'nt realizing they need to subtract old out dated idea's as well. I dont think were a minority, scanning the forums can reveal just how many people are mmo bouncing and the reason they cant find a home isnt because there arent any good games its because half way through they realize they dont want to sink a 8 hour shift in to get 1 level on a char their not sure theyll enjoy endgame.
Wrong approach buddy.
Developers should think about doing away with level-based systems and classes and go with skill-based, sandbox MMOs instead, where you can have your single character and are able to train all available skills on that one character.
That's how you keep players interested in playing the game, if they don't have to do the same quests over and over again, with every new class they play. Also, players are not interested in having 5 toons at maximum level, when there's no content after leveling up.
Players need to have the option to create their own content, like conquering territories and defending them against other players etc.
And a working economy!
Just take EvE Online as an example and transfer the basics into a 1st/3rd-person styled MMO and let the players work for their XP/skills instead of having them trained in realtime.
There's a game in development atm, that will probably set a milestone regarding this question: it's called Earthrise.
I for sure will keep an eye on it and see how it looks like on release.
How typical of the "I want it now generation". Pick a class and stick with it, these games level too fast to start with.
.....as i posted above im sure ive been playing online games longer or as along as you i've put in my mindless grinding days just like everyone else. My point is it's an outdated business model, when the concept of mmo's was new and exciting the grind platform worked well since the lack of competition resulted in fewer options. Now there are 100's of mmo's all with the same grind model except now the mmo community has seen it all done it all, give options not limitations. Give the ability to experience the game a developer crew has worked for years on from each classes perspective not a single view point and theyll see their longterm subscription rate increase.
Im not sure how you can say 300-600 hours of pure grind is to fast a leveling pace to begin with........
darkfall and mortal online both have your idea in use and on the way also and what ends up happening is everyone maxes all skills and everyone is the same. people all chose the cookie cutter skill model best for the game and everyone ends up playing the same way doing the same thing basically a fps style game with a longer leveling curve, it fits some people but the model is flawed read some posts on the darkfall forums its probably the most entertaining forums around.
I tried LOTRO, gave up after about three weeks. One of the reasons was that levelling was ridiculously fast. I'd never even seen the game before and had three toons in the teens, one was over lvl 30. That's ridiculous, gives you nothing to work for or to look forward to.
I just cancelled my CoX account. The 'goodbye' email was a simple one liner saying the account was closed. Developers these days don't want to know why people leave their game. Without that information how can we have any hope that they have a clue what the players want.
Looking for a new home...not got much hope though
It's not the MMO developers' faults you have a short attention span. Also, no modern MMOs take 6 months to get to max level... perhaps you're just not that good a player.
But why do you want to get to the level cap anyway?
I've actually found that the games I've played get boring once I've hit the top. For me the fun has come from the journey not the destination.
I would say it depends on the game you're playing and what the endgame is. PoTBS & DoAC and to a smaller degree SWG the end game is Pvp. From my understanding of them, WoW & AoC would fit that model too. For games that fall into those catagories than why bother with levels anyway? Why not just start out at the end point and play the endgame?
The worst I've seen had to be AoC, the levels flew by so fast why did they even have them. For a endgame style game going with skills vice level would make so much more sense. Except that then the cookie cutter / best build problem comes up. Heaven forbid that people should customize their toon's to their individual tastes! Got to have this skill for offense and this for defense with a little of this for added whatever. What was it in the old SWG? TK/pikemen/doc/commando? Bah!
For LotRO which I'm playing now and SWG & PotBS the fun is/was just running the story (missions/quests). I had more fun with SWG & PotBS as a mid-level player. I could handle the missions and was in a good enough position to run with a group if it was a hard mission or wanted to Pvp.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
Let's look at a few recent MMos...AOC, Vanguard, WAR, Darkfall, LoTRo, DDO..etc
For all their slight differences, they're all the same. Alright, some are doing ok, but they aren't doing great. It's just churning out the same old shit in a different skin. Taking an established title and jumping shamelessly onto the WoW bandwagon with a half-baked clone with crappy code hoping in vain that somehow people will like it.
I think we need something different now, the MMO scene is tired.
What gets me most is that how can they make a bad game? You have a certain amount of money, you know the capabilities of your programmers, and you should have an original idea. If a husband and wife team can make a half decent game funded with just donations (Mount & Blade). Surely a multi-million $ company can churn out something half decent? Well, Apparently not.
I used to be a huge MMO fan, now I simply can't be arsed with them. They're all shite IMO.
Amafi
Darkfall or Mortal Online don't even have 50% of the things in use I was talking about there.
They're FPS-style games without any content then killing each other.
No economy, no crafting-system, no ressource-gathering (big style!) no nothing.
You should really have a look at http://www.play-earthrise.com/ to know what kind of sandbox MMO I'm talking about.
Leveling speed is fine. I think they need to drop the whole raid as major part of end game approach. In Wow about the time I hit 80 its time to reroll a new toon or maybe go to a different server. The game would be much more tolerable with more small group or hell at this point even solo content at end game just no more raiding.
It's all about the investor's.
The only original titles / games are those like your M&B example above, Vendetta-Online (4 buddies doing it on their own) or PotBS (where FLS had all the money on their own and didn't have to borrow any).
For anything with investor's it's just the same as on TV.
Dev - I want you to put money into something totally new that may not make any money.
Investor - Hmmmmm ...... NO. Just re-do something we know we'll get our money back on.
SWG (pre-cu) - AoC (pre-f2p) - PotBS (pre-boarder) - DDO - LotRO (pre-f2p) - STO (pre-f2p) - GnH (beta tester) - SWTOR - Neverwinter
If you don't enjoy levelling, don't play RPG's. That IS the game. What are you wanting to be max level for? That's when the game ends. Don't tell me raids, PvP, or other nonsense. The journey IS the game, and if u find it boring, play an FPS, or RTS. Stop whining about levelling.
Darkfall or Mortal Online don't even have 50% of the things in use I was talking about there.
They're FPS-style games without any content then killing each other.
No economy, no crafting-system, no ressource-gathering (big style!) no nothing.
You should really have a look at http://www.play-earthrise.com/ to know what kind of sandbox MMO I'm talking about.
darkfall does have a crafting system the economy is actually decent, and as for gathering its more of a grind than leveling in most mmo's
Grinding sucks.
When I see grind in an MMO I leave faster than a rat on a sinking ship.
If you don't enjoy levelling, don't play RPG's. That IS the game. What are you wanting to be max level for? That's when the game ends. Don't tell me raids, PvP, or other nonsense. The journey IS the game, and if u find it boring, play an FPS, or RTS. Stop whining about levelling.
your half right...an rpg is about advancing your character, however your talking about enjoying for example 1-49th level in a 50 level rpg. all the equipment etc youve collected becomes obsolete at 50 so taking your time enjoying the grind and equipment farming that is going to become obsolete is a waste of time. the object truely is get to 50 because that is really when the game actually begins 1-49 is a end to a new beginning. thanks for your input though i appreciate you chiming in your .0002 cent and declaring me a whiner when all i have made is solid valid points.
I disagree with your opinion in many ways. To make a long story short I think there are many more important mmo features than leveling, and the length of leveling has a very small impact on my decision to play a game.
Devs have woken up look at how many MMOs are getting released this year and last year.
I find it amazing that by 2020 first world countries will be competing to get immigrants.
According to you....
RPG's yes on my Commodore 64 they were about levels.
The first MMORPG I played was Ultima online... no levels.. odd I know.
Its all about opinions.. and opinions aren't universal fact. Tho you can make some basic "factual" statements.
Most MMO's are not "growing" I think would be fairly accurate. As to why this is... well I think the reasons (like this thread) are more about personal experience or opinion. We'd need to have every person who canceled come in and say why... then you'd still only have a "majority" reason... not THE reason. Its subjective...
But to the OP I think EQ2 is a good example. Its not really about being bored with the first class you played... or even sticking with it (as some suggest).
You play a class... join a guild... do your group stuff with the guild etc... Then one day (maybe years) later you are maximum level... your guild is raiding. Yet you can't do that content because they don't need your class...
The issue *I* (me personally) see with most MMO's is that people are looking for group. A person will list off a entire list of classes they have at a certain level... just hoping a group actually needs one of those classes.
You know what would be nice?
If I could buy a game... pick a class they advertise... take as long or as short as I want to level AND be able to take part in ANY content I have an interest in. So they need to design content to be done by non traditional groups ....
But then the traditional group will find it to easy and complain...
That's pretty much how I see MMO's currently.
short version: You can advertise 24 classes in hopes someone will buy your product based on one of those. Yet when they find the vast majority of those 24 classes aren't wanted... they may or may not deal with playing something they didn't buy the game for...
Nothing, that can even remotely be compared to what EvE Online offers, or what's ananounced for Earthrise.
Another thing, why Darkfall and Mortal Online can't be compared is, that they have multiple servers and not the single game-world for everyone that EvE Online offers.
Multiple servers split up the community. What you do is of no value to the whole game-world etc.
Don't fool yourself please.
What a MMO needs, to be attractive for several years is a "single world sandbox approach", where everything you do matters (besides questing and killing mobs).
Even the whole economy in EvE is PvP, there's nothing to be bought from NPCs besides blueprints or POS-modules. Anything you buy or sell is in direct competition to other players, where things like ressource-cost and availability counts. Holding space and harvest the available ressources in these player-controlled territories effects the whole playerbase etc.
So to make it more visible as a list, of what a MMO needs, that attracts player for more then a few month:
That's only for starters and not in detail, but that's far from what Darkfall or MO are offering.
Will this attract millions of players? Maybe not, but as EvE Online prooves, it is attracting enough of players to make a succesful MMO.
Will people stay longer then the usual few month? Definately YES, as it doesn't get boring once you've hit end-game. These kind of games actually start getting interesting, once you hit end-game.
Ok per your example you have reached level 50 you will get no more skills, levels, talents, or even better equipement from now on out. How is that exactly when "The Game actually begins"? What exactly then is there left to look forward too a month or 2 of top end contentand then just do the same content again and again and again? gee and you say the level grind is boring?
Fortunately for the rest of us you forgot one important thing. fairly soon after you hit 50 (if the designers are any good) The level cap will be raised to 60 or higher to prevent the game from dying of stagnantion. So in effect the game will always be about the journey and you my friend will never be happy unless the developers basically say ok this is it max level XX we aren't doing anything more or developing this game any further! (ie the end)
I think the problem is here your not looking at all angles and really thinking things through. it really sounds like your so busy trying to get to the top that you missed the point and are more then alittle burnt out because developers keep raising Caps preventing you from being Most uber end game guy for any real length of time. My apologies if that came across harsh.
Don't feel bad i remember reading abunch of angry WoW players complaining when the first expansion came out and they had to start grinding for the Phat loot again. (Somehow they thought once they maxed out in the original they would just always be at max?)
IMO and yes it is just my opinion, once a game stops having goals to aim for (ie you are max level, have the best gear, skills maxed out seen/done all the cool content at least once etc.) the game is over. Of course i've seen others whose idea of fun is standing on top of a mail box in a crowded town in thier uber gear dancing. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
The term "end game" doesn't even apply to EVE Online as there is always something new to learn, your character or characters is/are never "finished", CCP is constantly adding new content etc...
EVE has the potential to go on just forever.
Have not played an mmo that took me 6 months to level to cap. Also I have yet to quit an mmo if I haven't played atleast one character to level cap. Basically I disagree with your points, and what game took 5 hours to level killing the same mob? Im guessing this is an exageration.
lineage2 and it was more than 5 hours on the same mob tons of games are similar this just pops to mind
Agreed. It's just a shame eve is so mindnumbingly dull. Space is cool, but a mmo set in space where you are only a spaceship is far too limiting for me.