Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Quick Links
Taking Risks- Why MMOs are "failing!"
This discussion has been closed.
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Comments
Keep in mind guys, nothing is a sure bet.. Every game, every opportunity has risk. World of Warcraft was not a sure thing when it came out. It did however have a good chance because of the following of already warcraft crazy gamerz.
Now that the WoW, quest style, game has been beaten to death, it will still exist, there will still be that type of MMORPG out there. However I think what alot of us are trying to say, is that there are other games which are coming out which will open up what has traditionally been done.
I mean really look at what they are doing with MAG. This is not a MMO, it is in a sense as 256 people FPS online battle it is, but to have engineered the technology to sustain a FPS with 256 active people, while not having lag or degredation of play, is no easy task. The engines which these games are built upon will eventually become easier as more advances in existing technologies, let alone the new technologies coming that were shown just at E3. Should I mention an MMORPG in a fantasy setting using Natal from the Microsoft guys? Or maybe a Swordplay MMO using the PS3's new motion controller.
I really think eventually we'll see that doing an MMO isn't going to be such a huge investment. Look at what Star Trek Online is doing with their Gensis engine. Imagine a 3rd or 4th version of that to create new worlds, what would have taken hundred of thousands of dollars to have a person generate, is now done automatically and with as much artistry as possible (by a computer) in a fraction of the time.
I think we'll are just on the doorsteps on what gaming will be, online, and with FiOS coming to more and more homes, just imagine not even having to have the content static, the server just dishes out new content, and it changes. Hell even depending on the weather where you live, your "home town" in the game could have the same weather... I think we'll see more and more, real live immersion with games too.. it's good marketing and a great way to keep you in the game. iPhone application that let's you check on things in the game, while not "in" the game..
I think we'll see better and better games coming, and more and more companies will find ways to make these more massive games, easier to develope.. Allowing them to take the focus of having to create so much content, and allow the focus of the gameplay to take forefront, and the story..
There will be alot of MMOs getting released within the next year, that will cover all of what you are suggesting there...
FPS MMOs: APB, Global Agenda, Huxley, The Agency
These are pretty much straight forward FPS-games with character-development and stuff like items and quests added to the mix.
FPS/RPG: Fallen Earth and Earthrise
These will have a mix of FPS/3rd person action combined with the usual RPG-elements in the combat-department, while featuring a open world sandbox, factional warfare, territorial warfare, deep crafting systems and skill-based character-progression, without the usual level-grind.
Space-Action: Jumpgate Evolution and Black Prophecy
Twitch based space-sims, with the usual RPG-elements (missions, exploration, character-progression, items, ect.)
Story-driven MMOs: SWTOR and STO
These will rely heavily on story-telling in the allready known universe of Star Wars and Star Trek, featuring the usual RPG-elements.
It took the developers 5 or more years to develop them so far, as developing something new, isn't easily done, like creating yet another EQ-clone (WoW is basically itself an EQ-clone). They needed their time and why nothing new came out during the last 5 years.
And even before there were MMOs in all the flavours you described there. SWG, Planetside, EvE Online for example. And then there was titles even before WoW got released, that were totally different. Like AO or Neocron.
I'm looking very happy into the shorter future, as there'll be a whole lot of fresh MMOs to try out, that aren't yet another grinding-contest.
/Agree
I don't think the OP and a lot of posters here realize a very very critical point. MMOs are failing not because the developer are not taking risks. As a matter of fact, they did and still do. It's not about them not being innovated. You can innovated all you want, come up with the strangest idea in the world, make it unique unlike anything anyone have ever seen, yet you can still fail. The OP wrote a whole thesis there but still fail to realize a key point to any game success.
WHY?
Because you did not look at the root of what gaming is all about. Why are we playing games?
Because we enjoy them, we are having fun playing them. Right?
So, the key point to a game success is not taking risks, it's providing the "FUN" value to a broad audience. Now, FUN is a subjective thing, one thing could be fun to one person but not fun to the others. BUT, it is possible to provide a high fun value to a large amount of players. World of Warcraft proved this.Did it really propose anything new for the genre when it came out? Not really. Does it taking a huge risk, going to a direction nobody gone before? Not really. It's a combination of what were there in the market at that point. You can clearly see the inspiration from multiple games before it. They just took the ideas, combine them, polished them and more importanly make them FUN to play for many people.
You can say all you want about WoW but the fact still stand. World of Warcraft provides the FUN, the entertainment value for many people for a long time.
SO, you are looking at it wrong. Trying to make the game FUN for your target demographic sometimes involves taking risks. But it's not taking risks will make your game FUN and success. At the end of the day, Why MMOs are failing is not because developers are not taking risks. It's because their games are not FUN for many people or cannot keep being FUN for long. Some games are very FUN to play at first but quickly lost their magic.
well... what is it that "the MMO public" wants?
why does EVE provide it and SWTOR not?
because i'm looking forward to SWTOR, while i never even bothered with EVE...
Hype train -> Reality
Wish i had said this, much more complete than my post, but making the same point. And I am very happily awaiting the release of these titles in the next year or two.
well... what is it that "the MMO public" wants?
why does EVE provide it and SWTOR not?
because i'm looking forward to SWTOR, while i never even bothered with EVE...
My guess is he...oops, I mean the MMO public....wants a skill-based, non-levelling, non-class MMO. Boiled down further...a lot of people griping about TOR want SWG2, with a bit of EVE tossed in
Get. Over. It.
TOR isn't going to be like SWG. It's not going to be made for SWG players. It's not a sequel to SWG. It's not taking anything from EVE. I think so much of the anger over TOR is so many SWG fans were hoping it would be everything they loved pre NGE with so much more added, and have now found out that it is (god help me for saying this) a quest based, class-based, level based MMO with set factions. In other words, similar to some other games out right now. I won't say what ones. You can guess.
Honestly TOR isn't those games either, but it is closer to them than to SWG. Hence the anger.
/thread
also, If they gave you what you wanted you would stop playing.
If people werent such frakking pussies and QQ everytime they didnt get their instant gratification, and cried about something that was too HARRRRD!!! or too boring and an inconvience for them, maybe todays MMOs would be more diverse than just ripping off and trying to clone the success of World Of Nubcraft maybe less MMOs would quit failing, start making more games cater to everyones style of play not people that play 1 hr a day and then quit 3-4 months later, the same people that defend these casual friendly games are the same ones that leave MMOs first are at the beginning the most vocal about their fanboism defend their (insert vanilla MMO of the month : Aion , SWTOR etc, etc) then when the chips are down they QQ on the forums how this and that should be removed or nerfed Wah Wah!! Flash foward 2 weeks later.... a post on the said MMOs website in a general forums titled : Why I Am Leaving (Insert Game) and they go on this whole diatribe about how they didnt like x game mechanic or that, too time consuming , too much grind (most MMOs today dont even have a grind anymore to get to max level..) QQ about this and that until the rest of the community tells them dont let the door hit you in the ass cause we wont miss ya, back to WOW you go vile wench!!!
In the end its accounts, marketing , and the suits that tell the devs how to make the game and the target demographic to go for so far its not working out so well, and so just cause the mass majority is casual doesnt make for a good MMO if you plan for long term players, if everything can be completed with months time whats the use of playing MMOs anymore if people want to rush to the end?
how is that even close to a risk? it was very plainly shooting themselves in the head. it couldnt have been a more straightforward shot than if it was done with a gun. they went from original and fun with pre-cu to generic with the NGE. besides, they took the 'risk' after the game was made and when they were getting very good business with their actually original and good gameplay. If people are going to take a risk with a game, then they shouldnt make it a new game after they made it.
That, my boy, is a whole lot of "QQ"ing, lol
Z
http://www.TheIronZ.com
i disagree with your ideas of how to make an exceptional mmo that would break the WoW hold, but i agree that they have to get off of that course. in the next few weeks i should be submitting a very big post about what would make a good MMO, very detailed on how to seemingly eliminate grinding and how to make a game that you can keep playing for a much longer time than you could in a normal MMO but still not feel the need to pour all of your time into it to get good. also will cover originality in classes, trasdeskills, and adding a big fun factor into it for mostly anyone... keep an eye out for the post. I've got 20 pages written up already, but it's barely scratching the surface and it isnt well organized yet. dont expect it in the next week or anything, i probably still have another hundred pages of basics to write and organize lol
Games fail simply because they are not fun.
Developers seem to just 'lemming' their way through the process, repeating the same mistake that killed other games - or as others have said, try make a WoW clone - which gets crushed simply because you cannot beat WoW with a 'wow clone'.
Developers cannot even make games that can retain 200-300k resubs, let alone 'challenge WoW'.
Just make better games, and you will see the customers come.
I'd love to see a mmorpg based arounf TF2 concepts as well.
Progression that is horizontal and grants veterans more options as opposed to higher stats puts everyone on a level playing field and makes the game skill based as opposed to time played based.
Progression Without Levels
Trying to have a progression-based game without "levels" is a bit odd. "Level" as a concept is merely a measure of progression. So it's a bit like a mapmaker being tired of this "kilometer" thing, and deciding to innovate new measurements like "miles" or "days worth of driving". Inevitably the new measurement doesn't functionally differ from the old one.
A game with skills instead of levels is a twist on the levels concept (although it's a little easier to understand it the other way around: levels are a twist on skills, and each time you level up all of your skills increase; the specific skills that increase being determined by your class.)
Why can't we have a reactive and stats-less fighting system?
We can. But your primary gameplay activities are going to dictate whether you can still call yourself a MMORPG.
If combat is mostly FPS-based with minimal RPG elements, people will call your game a MMOFPS. Planetside was an MMOFPS where new players were on even footing with veteran ones, due to gameplay being primarily about player skill.
These things exist. MMOFPS, MMORTS, and other types of MMOs are out there. Go play em :P
Warhammer Online "most of the content was World of Warcraft ideas built upon with slight improvements"
It's inaccurate to call WAR a 'slight improvement' when in fact it significantly misses the mark in some of the most important areas -- enough that the few areas they did innovate (like PQs) get overlooked.
I think the underlying failure (which echoes to all parts of the game) is that ability use is just flat-out shallow. WOW's abilities reward a certain amount of reaction, timing, and strategy. WAR's abilities are static rotations.
Shallow abilities hurts PVE and it really hurts PVP. And each of these parts of the game already has its own troubles (PVP being large scale makes things more about zerging than skill, and PVE mobs in WAR are particularly uninteresting due to a complete lack of well-designed abilities; basically mobs either have no ability, a DOT, or a Stun -- each of those being uninteresting, or outright not fun, in it's own way.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I think in some way, those that follow development as some what to blame.
I think people get to excited about a project, and act differently during development, than they do at release -- sort of like being stuck in a 'Honeymoon' phase'.
Rather than demanding quality, fun, and being realitically critical, people forget about how other games have failed, and feel 'this is the one'.
I think it people demanded quality, demanded inovation, you would see Developers start 'Thinking Outside the Box' --- rather than making the usual 'great' game, that suddenly turns to junk at release.
If a developer starts decribing a 'Wow' Clone or something that has been boring in the past, rather than be all 'oooo, ahhhh, thats great, can I be in beta....' we should react how we will when it is released - 'boooo. seen it before, BORING, lacks inovation, why would I play a WoW clone when I can just play WoW, etc."
If the market was 'hostile' at the onset of Development to 'clones', Developers would probably get the idea at the begining of Development, rather than the 2nd month of Release, that maybe they should have done something 'new'.
To me, I want an MMO that revisits the old MMOs. I want the incredible varied in depth crafting system. I want lands that takes weeks to full explore. I want bosses that are fought over with various factions. I want PvP non-instanced. I want a combat system that doesn't have to be perfectly balanced but everyone has a chance to kill someone. I want armor to be a good thing but not so overpowering that it makes it a must have to win against someone with it, it should only offer slight advantages but skill should always be the deciding factor. I want an MMO with consequences. I want an MMO I can immerse myself into and have many things to do and I forget about the leveling or don't notice it. I think crafts/professions should be more valuable than how most are in other MMOs today. I actually want complex dungeons and progession again. I want quests that don't map themselves out for me but require reading and knowing the lore to solve.
Pretty much everything that WoW and Rift's NOT.
Throw EQ in with early SWG and Vanguard together with DAoC and some Aion and make a game with all their best points and you'll see me buying a 5 year subscription to it right off the bat.
I don't like the dumbing down of games. I think most companies are trying to make the most they can in the smallest amount of time and what it does is absolutely nothing positive for the community. I don't wanna ever really "beat" the game. I also don't think it should be a grind that is boring. I believe there are ways to make a game super interestesting and very complicated/detailed, community driven and fun without nerfing everything to all hell.
Holy thread necro Batman!!
MMOs fail because of the half-a**ed attempts at making them (leaving out obviously necessary features, lack of creativity).
Not to mention the fact that most game companies think they can stay in business by ignoring their customers and not giving a sh*t ($OE). It's like this is Bizarro world or something.
Mass-produced P2WIN cash shop asian grinders don't count because they are all just money traps, obviously. Those companies obviously don't care about the games at all. They mass produce games with game-breaking cash shops just so they can lure in suckers to pay them money. The sad thing is that it works.
Who says there is always a "next"?
People who played text adventures in the 80s would think that by today, text adventures would be run by sentient AI who can take natural English as inputs .... the genre is dead.
People who played graphical adventures in the 80s & 90s would think that we would have natural phyiscs puzzle solving, natural english conversations with characters and so on ... the genre is almost dead .. no more AAA projects although there is still some indy work.
People who played war games in the 80s would think that we would have advance AI, and real time battles from the tactical level to the strategic level. The genre is almost dead .. there is no more AAA hard core war games now.
Genre comes and go. I don't expect MMOs to last forever .. certainly not in its current form.
^^
Gaming since Avalon Hill was making board games.
Played SWG, EVE, Fallen Earth, LOTRO, Rift, Vanguard, WoW, SWTOR, TSW, Tera
Tried Aoc, Aion, EQII, RoM, Vindictus, Darkfail, DDO, GW, PotBS
Once a mmo goes mainstream, everything gets dumbed down for the sake of a purchase. The genre needs to stay small and innovative in order for long term success. Sure, WoW is a rarity but everyone else pretty much fails.