Grind... Grind... Grind! Back where I come from, in Real Life, the term "grind" has a negative connotation. Doing the same thing over and over and not enjoying yourself IS grinding. Doing the same thing over and over and having fun was NOT grinding. We called it camping. Early Everquest, many call a grind. It was not to me. It was a social, massive, challenging world. Hell yeah, we killed the same mobs over and over, but we had a big group, we all knew each other, and we bullshitted while we did it! It was fun! That is not grinding to me! SWG, when the holocrons appeared, grinding for me began. Dancing in the cantina, bio-engineering, doing crap I didn't want to do to become a jedi - that to me was grinding. Pushing for an end result and not enjoying the journey is grinding to me. When you are having fun, it is not grinding. People these days race to the end game and forget to have fun on the way there. That is why the term grinding is so prevelant (sp?) these days. Race to the endgame! Grind, grind, grind... Stop and smell the roses! Go fishing! Get drunk and levitate off the wizard spires! Having fun kills grind. Everyone just flies through MMORPGs now and don't socialize (or screw around) unless they have to. Hence, the grind! Just my opinion. Yeah!!! Only good grind: Your girlfriend rubbing against you on the dance floor.
"Pushing for an end result and not enjoying the journey is grinding to me." - Never thought I'd be able to agree with an EQ player on something like that. The problem is that most MMORPGs neglect the journey and make it horrifically boring, the only reason to keep playing is for that end result, the rewards set as goals for you by the game. If you have to try to make it fun by bullshitting with your friends, something is wrong with the game mechanics.
How is it a money pit for employees to be playing key NPCs for live events? Asheron's Call did it with 100,000 subscribers at its peak for something like 5 or 6 years and the game is still alive today, so it must've been profitable, it came out in 1999! Let's use WoW as an example. How many servers are there? How many people to make up a team of "actors" for a live event? It adds up. Ever run a business? Also, it bugs me that you haven't read any of the other posts in this thread, because you would see that grind isn't required for filler, especially if developer's take advantage of their most numerous resource of players and give them the tools to provide content. I have read the thread, and the consensus is that grind is what keeps the subscribers coming back. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just stating a fact. Grind is there to keep people coming back and playing. Period. Make all the judgements about it you want, but good or bad, you can't deny its reason for being there. Give them the power to control cities and you'll have countless wars and open up doors for mercenary groups, lots of PvP, crafting clans to create supplies and sell them. Give them the power to create their own cities and that's pretty much brand new content being created by the players, it opens up clans to give "quests" to other players to collect building materials for them, and again opens up even more room for trade. You won't get an argument from me. I'd play that game. The thing is, not everyone is going to be into sandbox games, so it becomes a question of how you would solve the grind issue in a more PvE focussed game, and that is where my post was coming from. In a level-less, skill-based sandbox game, the subject of "grind" is a moot point.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Originally posted by Scottc How is it a money pit for employees to be playing key NPCs for live events? Asheron's Call did it with 100,000 subscribers at its peak for something like 5 or 6 years and the game is still alive today, so it must've been profitable, it came out in 1999!
Originally posted by jonrd463 Let's use WoW as an example. How many servers are there? How many people to make up a team of "actors" for a live event? It adds up. Ever run a business?
For Asheron's Call, events never required more than 4 actors. WoW's website states that it has over 200 servers in North America, so we'll be generous and give them 300. Let's say they get paid 10 dollars an hour, why would you need them for more than an hour or two? $12,000 for one event across 300 servers with 4 actors that lasted an hour. 11 million subscribers. $165,000,000 is what Blizzard makes per MONTH on World of Warcraft. That's 0.007% of their monthly income. If you want to argue that nobody would do that for $10 an hour, I would GLADLY do that for $5 an hour. Play a game as an epic story character and entertain thousands of players? Fuck yes. Not to mention, the devs and GMs would most likely gladly do the part, it's not like they're spending their time working on real content anyway.
Originally posted by Scottc Also, it bugs me that you haven't read any of the other posts in this thread, because you would see that grind isn't required for filler, especially if developer's take advantage of their most numerous resource of players and give them the tools to provide content.
Originally posted by jonrd463 I have read the thread, and the consensus is that grind is what keeps the subscribers coming back. I'm not saying it's a good thing, I'm just stating a fact. Grind is there to keep people coming back and playing. Period. Make all the judgements about it you want, but good or bad, you can't deny its reason for being there.
I agree that it's there to keep people coming back, but it does so in a very poor manner akin to what a drug dealer would employ, people get attached to the time investment they've put into the game, and while they dislike not being high, they'll do whatever it takes for that next hit of epics.
Originally posted by Scottc Give them the power to control cities and you'll have countless wars and open up doors for mercenary groups, lots of PvP, crafting clans to create supplies and sell them. Give them the power to create their own cities and that's pretty much brand new content being created by the players, it opens up clans to give "quests" to other players to collect building materials for them, and again opens up even more room for trade.
Originally posted by jonrd463 You won't get an argument from me. I'd play that game. The thing is, not everyone is going to be into sandbox games, so it becomes a question of how you would solve the grind issue in a more PvE focussed game, and that is where my post was coming from. In a level-less, skill-based sandbox game, the subject of "grind" is a moot point.
I guess all I can really say is that a PvE focused game isn't really sustainable, unless you focus on random generation more often (like AC did with armor and weapons), and allow people to customize with variety rather than go through different higher and higher tiers. Then just let them enjoy the quests that get added, make more interesting quests like I listed on an earlier page about Asheron's Call that are repeatable. If they're good enough and there are enough quests, people definitely won't mind redoing old quests because they enjoy the challenge of making it through the dungeon, and the reward they receive.
Edited for readability.
Edited again because this post editor is buggy as hell.
Anything in life is a grind, but it's just whether or not that grind is FUN. If the grind is fun, then it doesn't really feel like a grind at all though it might be repetitive.
Anything in life is a grind, but it's just whether or not that grind is FUN. If the grind is fun, then it doesn't really feel like a grind at all though it might be repetitive.
Anything in life is a grind, but it's just whether or not that grind is FUN. If the grind is fun, then it doesn't really feel like a grind at all though it might be repetitive.
/agree. I'll also agree with the point that the journey has been forgotten, only the end. I've played a lot of MMOs, and (to use a well known game) WoW was pretty boring for me leveling up. I couldn't find a group for ANYthing because if anybody wanted to run a low level dungeon, they had a level 70 run them through it. I soloed all the way up. I thought to myself the whole time, "Why am I paying 15$ a month for a single player game!?" I also told myself that when I hit max level, the REAL game would begin. To a point I was correct, but then I found myself grinding in groups! Yay!
What can cut down on the "grinding", you ask? Well, make the journey fun and interesting! Make it so when I walk into a town, it randomly bursts into flames because dragons are attacking it! Make it so when I'm flying my fighter into a station to dock, it gets attacked by pirates! Write a story for me that I feel compelled to read and feel like a part of, not "Please go and kill 10 rats in my farm." Hell, most of the stories from 70 to 80 in WoW were very good stories and very compelling, and it finally felt GOOD to read the quest text rather than a chore! Give me immersion, and I'll use those same buttons all day long to fight enemies! Give me nothing but my buttons, and it quickly wastes to nothing.
"Imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life." Simone Weil
Anything in life is a grind, but it's just whether or not that grind is FUN. If the grind is fun, then it doesn't really feel like a grind at all though it might be repetitive.
/agree. I'll also agree with the point that the journey has been forgotten, only the end. I've played a lot of MMOs, and (to use a well known game) WoW was pretty boring for me leveling up. I couldn't find a group for ANYthing because if anybody wanted to run a low level dungeon, they had a level 70 run them through it. I soloed all the way up. I thought to myself the whole time, "Why am I paying 15$ a month for a single player game!?" I also told myself that when I hit max level, the REAL game would begin. To a point I was correct, but then I found myself grinding in groups! Yay!
What can cut down on the "grinding", you ask? Well, make the journey fun and interesting! Make it so when I walk into a town, it randomly bursts into flames because dragons are attacking it! Make it so when I'm flying my fighter into a station to dock, it gets attacked by pirates! Write a story for me that I feel compelled to read and feel like a part of, not "Please go and kill 10 rats in my farm." Hell, most of the stories from 70 to 80 in WoW were very good stories and very compelling, and it finally felt GOOD to read the quest text rather than a chore! Give me immersion, and I'll use those same buttons all day long to fight enemies! Give me nothing but my buttons, and it quickly wastes to nothing.
While I agree that good story is fun, and keeps me playing, and is lacking in most of our new mmo's I think the real compelling factor, that makes a mmo good, makes the grind fun.......is a good comunity.
I think when its all said and done we can all agree that a good comunity is 70% of the "fun" but the big million dollar question, s how can the devs make a game that promotes a "good comunity"? sugestions?
Anything in life is a grind, but it's just whether or not that grind is FUN. If the grind is fun, then it doesn't really feel like a grind at all though it might be repetitive.
/agree. I'll also agree with the point that the journey has been forgotten, only the end. I've played a lot of MMOs, and (to use a well known game) WoW was pretty boring for me leveling up. I couldn't find a group for ANYthing because if anybody wanted to run a low level dungeon, they had a level 70 run them through it. I soloed all the way up. I thought to myself the whole time, "Why am I paying 15$ a month for a single player game!?" I also told myself that when I hit max level, the REAL game would begin. To a point I was correct, but then I found myself grinding in groups! Yay!
What can cut down on the "grinding", you ask? Well, make the journey fun and interesting! Make it so when I walk into a town, it randomly bursts into flames because dragons are attacking it! Make it so when I'm flying my fighter into a station to dock, it gets attacked by pirates! Write a story for me that I feel compelled to read and feel like a part of, not "Please go and kill 10 rats in my farm." Hell, most of the stories from 70 to 80 in WoW were very good stories and very compelling, and it finally felt GOOD to read the quest text rather than a chore! Give me immersion, and I'll use those same buttons all day long to fight enemies! Give me nothing but my buttons, and it quickly wastes to nothing.
While I agree that good story is fun, and keeps me playing, and is lacking in most of our new mmo's I think the real compelling factor, that makes a mmo good, makes the grind fun.......is a good comunity.
I think when its all said and done we can all agree that a good comunity is 70% of the "fun" but the big million dollar question, s how can the devs make a game that promotes a "good comunity"? sugestions?
You can't. No matter how much you try to inspire the general good of people, there's always going to be someone to come along and take a big fat dump on it. The only kind of control that can reasonably be put in place are things like rulesets for RP. No l33tspeak names, must always be in character in chat channels, etc. Stuff that comes with a heavy banhammer to exert a little conditioning for the greater good of the community. Other than that, you have to rely on the general game populace. I might be a little more cynical than the average person, but in all my years dealing with people (and I'm no kid by any stretch of the imagination) the one thing you can rely on is someone fucking up the works. It doesn't take very many, either. Coupled with too much of a laissez-faire attitude with the game administrators, all it takes is a handful of douchenuggets to make paying subscribers go "I'm not paying for this shit" and drop out.
Unfortunatly, people suck.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
A grind is doing the same damn thing over and over and over.
To fix that you put enough interesting content so people dont feel like they are doing the same thing . For instance, you can put interesting story in so that the player doesnt feel like he is JUST killing stuff. Also, you can put in a complex combat system so that players cannot figure out THE BEST thread of abilities and always do the same combination fight after fight after fight. In a decent combat system you will need to changeup your combination of attacks all the time. Keeping people thinking about what they need to be doing takes away the grind.
It is true that different players need more or less interesting stuff to make it not a grind, but that does not imply that the grind is just imaginary. It certainly exists.
Are you honestly telling me that you enjoyed failing repeatedly in I Wanna Be The Guy, and never became frustrated at all at the experience?
No.
I enjoyed beating it after several tries, which most players nowadays wouldn't like. Frustration just makes it all that much sweeter when I finally clear the stage. Just as you said, but it's irrelevant to my actual point you're not getting.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Anything in life is a grind, but it's just whether or not that grind is FUN. If the grind is fun, then it doesn't really feel like a grind at all though it might be repetitive.
/agree. I'll also agree with the point that the journey has been forgotten, only the end. I've played a lot of MMOs, and (to use a well known game) WoW was pretty boring for me leveling up. I couldn't find a group for ANYthing because if anybody wanted to run a low level dungeon, they had a level 70 run them through it. I soloed all the way up. I thought to myself the whole time, "Why am I paying 15$ a month for a single player game!?" I also told myself that when I hit max level, the REAL game would begin. To a point I was correct, but then I found myself grinding in groups! Yay!
What can cut down on the "grinding", you ask? Well, make the journey fun and interesting! Make it so when I walk into a town, it randomly bursts into flames because dragons are attacking it! Make it so when I'm flying my fighter into a station to dock, it gets attacked by pirates! Write a story for me that I feel compelled to read and feel like a part of, not "Please go and kill 10 rats in my farm." Hell, most of the stories from 70 to 80 in WoW were very good stories and very compelling, and it finally felt GOOD to read the quest text rather than a chore! Give me immersion, and I'll use those same buttons all day long to fight enemies! Give me nothing but my buttons, and it quickly wastes to nothing.
While I agree that good story is fun, and keeps me playing, and is lacking in most of our new mmo's I think the real compelling factor, that makes a mmo good, makes the grind fun.......is a good comunity.
I think when its all said and done we can all agree that a good comunity is 70% of the "fun" but the big million dollar question, s how can the devs make a game that promotes a "good comunity"? sugestions?
You can't. No matter how much you try to inspire the general good of people, there's always going to be someone to come along and take a big fat dump on it. The only kind of control that can reasonably be put in place are things like rulesets for RP. No l33tspeak names, must always be in character in chat channels, etc. Stuff that comes with a heavy banhammer to exert a little conditioning for the greater good of the community. Other than that, you have to rely on the general game populace. I might be a little more cynical than the average person, but in all my years dealing with people (and I'm no kid by any stretch of the imagination) the one thing you can rely on is someone fucking up the works. It doesn't take very many, either. Coupled with too much of a laissez-faire attitude with the game administrators, all it takes is a handful of douchenuggets to make paying subscribers go "I'm not paying for this shit" and drop out.
Unfortunatly, people suck.
Well I agree that people suck, but at the same time I do think there are things that Devs can do.
once again i'll use FFXI as an example
Slow leveling through zones (generaly speaking you would play with the same people night 2 night, sure it varied a little, but for the most part you'd meet someone and see them again.
Slow crafting (This one maybe not so much, but I do think it helps. Because you arn't able to leve 4 alts all with capped crafts. you have to depend on the auction house. and other players.
PL (power leveling, I think this helps because if a new person starts playing, if the have a current friend they are more likly to catch up)
Larger level "clusters" this one is kinda hard to explain, But it WOW if you are more then 3 levels ahead or behind someone its just dumb for you to play with them, whereas in FFXI you can be 5 levels apart and still do decently. Now this does a couple of things.
1. you spend more time with farmilar faces
2. easier to find groups (less frustration)
3. easier to level/play with RL friends.
Resons to level in groups, in the case of FFXI it was a group orentated game, when in a group you leveled faster and got XP chains and what-not, More reson to group in a game people will be nicer.
Heavier death penaltys (sp?) if it is going to cost you 20% of your overall XP when you die. then you'll sit there as long as possible to get a raise, and while you may not see why this helps with the comunity.....I think it does. It brings them closer togeather, people are more likly to get a raise if they havn't been a jackss for the last hour in the zone.
Well I agree that people suck, but at the same time I do think there are things that Devs can do. once again i'll use FFXI as an example Slow leveling through zones (generaly speaking you would play with the same people night 2 night, sure it varied a little, but for the most part you'd meet someone and see them again. Slow crafting (This one maybe not so much, but I do think it helps. Because you arn't able to leve 4 alts all with capped crafts. you have to depend on the auction house. and other players. PL (power leveling, I think this helps because if a new person starts playing, if the have a current friend they are more likly to catch up)
Larger level "clusters" this one is kinda hard to explain, But it WOW if you are more then 3 levels ahead or behind someone its just dumb for you to play with them, whereas in FFXI you can be 5 levels apart and still do decently. Now this does a couple of things. 1. you spend more time with farmilar faces 2. easier to find groups (less frustration) 3. easier to level/play with RL friends.
Resons to level in groups, in the case of FFXI it was a group orentated game, when in a group you leveled faster and got XP chains and what-not, More reson to group in a game people will be nicer.
Heavier death penaltys (sp?) if it is going to cost you 20% of your overall XP when you die. then you'll sit there as long as possible to get a raise, and while you may not see why this helps with the comunity.....I think it does. It brings them closer togeather, people are more likly to get a raise if they havn't been a jackss for the last hour in the zone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So while this may not fix things 100% I do think it'd make a big diffrence.
(sorry about the spelling)
I remember the nightly group spawn camping in DAOC. Was it fun when I was single and could play every night? I guess, but there was no such thing as viable soloing at the time. Would I want to do the forced group thing again? Hell NO!!!! and neither would every other married person I know who USED TO tolerate that sort of play=) Like FFXI it was just a loooooooooooooooooooooooong grind, killing the same stupid mobs in maybe a slightly different spot or the exact same spot for an entire week. That gameplay just won't fly in any large portion outside asian markets. It had one benefit and that was FORCING people to be nice, since if you weren't nice you weren't advancing. The negatives were obvious...linear, restricted gameplay requiring hours of uninterrupted play sessions only conducive to hardcore play.
Its all about the speed of advancement. Its just not tolerable anymore to see something new once every few weeks if your'e lucky. The simple pleasure of a number dinging is not FUN anymore for most people. A MMO needs a lot more than that. Almost every play session needs some form of REAL advancement. New gear, a new spell, a new story, a new acehivement, a new zone to explore, ect. In FFXI, you wouldn't see new abilities or new areas for weeks sometimes, because it all moved so slow. Some people like that. Most don't. Slowing don't advancement and more restircted forced gameplay styles are not the answer. it just leads to a bigger grind. Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for.
Well I agree that people suck, but at the same time I do think there are things that Devs can do. once again i'll use FFXI as an example Slow leveling through zones (generaly speaking you would play with the same people night 2 night, sure it varied a little, but for the most part you'd meet someone and see them again. Slow crafting (This one maybe not so much, but I do think it helps. Because you arn't able to leve 4 alts all with capped crafts. you have to depend on the auction house. and other players. PL (power leveling, I think this helps because if a new person starts playing, if the have a current friend they are more likly to catch up)
Larger level "clusters" this one is kinda hard to explain, But it WOW if you are more then 3 levels ahead or behind someone its just dumb for you to play with them, whereas in FFXI you can be 5 levels apart and still do decently. Now this does a couple of things. 1. you spend more time with farmilar faces 2. easier to find groups (less frustration) 3. easier to level/play with RL friends.
Resons to level in groups, in the case of FFXI it was a group orentated game, when in a group you leveled faster and got XP chains and what-not, More reson to group in a game people will be nicer.
Heavier death penaltys (sp?) if it is going to cost you 20% of your overall XP when you die. then you'll sit there as long as possible to get a raise, and while you may not see why this helps with the comunity.....I think it does. It brings them closer togeather, people are more likly to get a raise if they havn't been a jackss for the last hour in the zone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So while this may not fix things 100% I do think it'd make a big diffrence.
(sorry about the spelling)
I remember the nightly group spawn camping in DAOC. Was it fun when I was single and could play every night? I guess, but there was no such thing as viable soloing at the time. Would I want to do the forced group thing again? Hell NO!!!! and neither would every other married person I know who USED TO tolerate that sort of play=) Like FFXI it was just a loooooooooooooooooooooooong grind, killing the same stupid mobs in maybe a slightly different spot or the exact same spot for an entire week. That gameplay just won't fly in any large portion outside asian markets. It had one benefit and that was FORCING people to be nice, since if you weren't nice you weren't advancing. The negatives were obvious...linear, restricted gameplay requiring hours of uninterrupted play sessions only conducive to hardcore play.
Its all about the speed of advancement. Its just not tolerable anymore to see something new once every few weeks if your'e lucky. The simple pleasure of a number dinging is not FUN anymore for most people. A MMO needs a lot more than that. Almost every play session needs some form of REAL advancement. New gear, a new spell, a new story, a new acehivement, a new zone to explore, ect. In FFXI, you wouldn't see new abilities or new areas for weeks sometimes, because it all moved so slow. Some people like that. Most don't. Slowing don't advancement and more restircted forced gameplay styles are not the answer. it just leads to a bigger grind. Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for.
I would dissagree with you on almost every point. First off, I am married and I do have time to play MMO's (2-4 hours a night) I do worka full time job, no I dont' have kids. no my wife doesn't play mmo's.
As far as the whole "time" agrument, it comes down to how much time you WANT to put into a game. And if you don't want to put more then a hour in a night. DON"T PLAY A MMO!!!!!
Second, I think that the market that was out there for longer grinding games is still out there, its just harder to see because it been engulfed by the mass WoW market. Where people are to lasy to do crap for themselfs.
and that last part "Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for." I know this. That is why they are all trying WoW "clones" or EQ clones...whatever you want. That is why we are getting the same garbage over and over. you sir...are the problem. (well you and about 9million other people like you)
And honestly, I would rather play a slow paced game, where I only advance or get new skills ever week. then play a game where its a single player game and you have to put up with a ton of jckss. *cough*WoW*cough*
It's a simple solution that most of these devs probably can't do. Create an MMO without levels, without gear for stats, then concentrate on making the game ALL ABOUT FUN. The reason why all MMOs have a grind is because every dev decides to put levels in, gear upgrades, stupid mobs that only get stronger through stats, rep/fame, etc. How can a game not be a grind when 90% of the content is to kill a million animals that are almost identical, asside from appearance?
I wouldn't mind if there were levels and all the other crap that adds to the grind if the whole game was fun. Right now, most of the fun is at end game, so everyone rushes (including me) to max level. IMO there is no fun to be had while leveling (aside from the first or 2nd time). If you've done it in one MMO, it's not much different in the next.
It's a simple solution that most of these devs probably can't do. Create an MMO without levels, without gear for stats, then concentrate on making the game ALL ABOUT FUN. The reason why all MMOs have a grind is because every dev decides to put levels in, gear upgrades, stupid mobs that only get stronger through stats, rep/fame, etc. How can a game not be a grind when 90% of the content is to kill a million animals that are almost identical, asside from appearance? I wouldn't mind if there were levels and all the other crap that adds to the grind if the whole game was fun. Right now, most of the fun is at end game, so everyone rushes (including me) to max level. IMO there is no fun to be had while leveling (aside from the first or 2nd time). If you've done it in one MMO, it's not much different in the next.
I would agree with you on this point, I like leveling, I like getting new skills and abilitys, I like grinding. But if its no fun its no fun. And I think that is part of the problem, the Devs make this really long game to "keep" people playing longer, and then are like...wait we need an incentive for them to level, so they make a decent endgame, but forget to make the middle part fun also.
Honestly I would be VERY VERY happy with a game that was just like FFXI, but with updated graphics, a larger crafting system...and a few other things to do.
This might be a little off topic, but it's something I've wondered about quite a bit. Developers put way too much into endgame additions when so much could be added to the beginning and middle of the game. Once again, using WoW as an example, they may add a new raid instance with every major content patch, or several with new expansions, but if you want to start a new character, you're basically playing the same exact game from 2004. Sure, TBC added the new races and starting areas, but why no love for the originals? I bet that if new levelling content were added to Elwynn Forest or Tirisfal Glades, for example, the longevity would increase because the replayability would be enhanced. Even after TBC, once I gained level 15 or so in the Blood Elf starting zones, it was back out into the main gameworld, playing the same 15-60 content as everyone else has been playing since release.
The game world is huge. There's so much that could be added to keep the middle game interesting.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
It's a simple solution that most of these devs probably can't do. Create an MMO without levels, without gear for stats, then concentrate on making the game ALL ABOUT FUN. The reason why all MMOs have a grind is because every dev decides to put levels in, gear upgrades, stupid mobs that only get stronger through stats, rep/fame, etc. How can a game not be a grind when 90% of the content is to kill a million animals that are almost identical, asside from appearance? I wouldn't mind if there were levels and all the other crap that adds to the grind if the whole game was fun. Right now, most of the fun is at end game, so everyone rushes (including me) to max level. IMO there is no fun to be had while leveling (aside from the first or 2nd time). If you've done it in one MMO, it's not much different in the next.
Why is only the end game fun? What is fun for you?
This might be a little off topic, but it's something I've wondered about quite a bit. Developers put way too much into endgame additions when so much could be added to the beginning and middle of the game. Once again, using WoW as an example, they may add a new raid instance with every major content patch, or several with new expansions, but if you want to start a new character, you're basically playing the same exact game from 2004. Sure, TBC added the new races and starting areas, but why no love for the originals? I bet that if new levelling content were added to Elwynn Forest or Tirisfal Glades, for example, the longevity would increase because the replayability would be enhanced. Even after TBC, once I gained level 15 or so in the Blood Elf starting zones, it was back out into the main gameworld, playing the same 15-60 content as everyone else has been playing since release.
The game world is huge. There's so much that could be added to keep the middle game interesting.
Its been awhile since I played WoW. Do they have a 50/51server?
Well I agree that people suck, but at the same time I do think there are things that Devs can do. once again i'll use FFXI as an example Slow leveling through zones (generaly speaking you would play with the same people night 2 night, sure it varied a little, but for the most part you'd meet someone and see them again. Slow crafting (This one maybe not so much, but I do think it helps. Because you arn't able to leve 4 alts all with capped crafts. you have to depend on the auction house. and other players. PL (power leveling, I think this helps because if a new person starts playing, if the have a current friend they are more likly to catch up)
Larger level "clusters" this one is kinda hard to explain, But it WOW if you are more then 3 levels ahead or behind someone its just dumb for you to play with them, whereas in FFXI you can be 5 levels apart and still do decently. Now this does a couple of things. 1. you spend more time with farmilar faces 2. easier to find groups (less frustration) 3. easier to level/play with RL friends.
Resons to level in groups, in the case of FFXI it was a group orentated game, when in a group you leveled faster and got XP chains and what-not, More reson to group in a game people will be nicer.
Heavier death penaltys (sp?) if it is going to cost you 20% of your overall XP when you die. then you'll sit there as long as possible to get a raise, and while you may not see why this helps with the comunity.....I think it does. It brings them closer togeather, people are more likly to get a raise if they havn't been a jackss for the last hour in the zone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ So while this may not fix things 100% I do think it'd make a big diffrence.
(sorry about the spelling)
I remember the nightly group spawn camping in DAOC. Was it fun when I was single and could play every night? I guess, but there was no such thing as viable soloing at the time. Would I want to do the forced group thing again? Hell NO!!!! and neither would every other married person I know who USED TO tolerate that sort of play=) Like FFXI it was just a loooooooooooooooooooooooong grind, killing the same stupid mobs in maybe a slightly different spot or the exact same spot for an entire week. That gameplay just won't fly in any large portion outside asian markets. It had one benefit and that was FORCING people to be nice, since if you weren't nice you weren't advancing. The negatives were obvious...linear, restricted gameplay requiring hours of uninterrupted play sessions only conducive to hardcore play.
Its all about the speed of advancement. Its just not tolerable anymore to see something new once every few weeks if your'e lucky. The simple pleasure of a number dinging is not FUN anymore for most people. A MMO needs a lot more than that. Almost every play session needs some form of REAL advancement. New gear, a new spell, a new story, a new acehivement, a new zone to explore, ect. In FFXI, you wouldn't see new abilities or new areas for weeks sometimes, because it all moved so slow. Some people like that. Most don't. Slowing don't advancement and more restircted forced gameplay styles are not the answer. it just leads to a bigger grind. Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for.
I would dissagree with you on almost every point. First off, I am married and I do have time to play MMO's (2-4 hours a night) I do worka full time job, no I dont' have kids. no my wife doesn't play mmo's.
As far as the whole "time" agrument, it comes down to how much time you WANT to put into a game. And if you don't want to put more then a hour in a night. DON"T PLAY A MMO!!!!!
Second, I think that the market that was out there for longer grinding games is still out there, its just harder to see because it been engulfed by the mass WoW market. Where people are to lasy to do crap for themselfs.
and that last part "Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for." I know this. That is why they are all trying WoW "clones" or EQ clones...whatever you want. That is why we are getting the same garbage over and over. you sir...are the problem. (well you and about 9million other people like you)
And honestly, I would rather play a slow paced game, where I only advance or get new skills ever week. then play a game where its a single player game and you have to put up with a ton of jckss. *cough*WoW*cough*
It doesn't really help your arguments if you tell people MMOs aren't for them if they don't have enormous time investments to put toward them. People want to have fun when they play, regardless of how much time they have, and when the actual gameplay isn't fun and all they have to look forward to are the milestones and rewards, with an hour of play time a day, they aren't going to reach a milestone or reward for days or even weeks depending on the MMO. Also you have to remember that the original popular MMOs like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online didn't require excessive amounts of time in order to reach a reward or have fun. Both had challenging gameplay that was thoroughly enjoyable, rather than just time consuming.
Why is only the end game fun? What is fun for you?
I'll be honest, the end game bores the hell out of me. Every character I ever have that hits max level retires. I'll start a new character and my maxed toon exists only to help buff others, etc. I don't raid, I don't gear grind, I don't PvP, I don't give a damn. That's all pointless crap.
It's the adventure that matters, the journey to the top. Once you're there, what's the point?
Why is only the end game fun? What is fun for you?
I'll be honest, the end game bores the hell out of me. Every character I ever have that hits max level retires. I'll start a new character and my maxed toon exists only to help buff others, etc. I don't raid, I don't gear grind, I don't PvP, I don't give a damn. That's all pointless crap.
It's the adventure that matters, the journey to the top. Once you're there, what's the point?
I agree! The grind is the best part of the game and if I can cap out in lvl with only playing 6 months then its a week grind and I will move on. The only game to keep me for over 6 months atm is L2 and most know that is the biggest grind game around. I only hope Aion is the same or more of a grind. Furthermore the harder the grind the more proud you are of your lvl. In EQ2 it was so easy so everyone is capped out and raiding but in Lineage2 there are only a hand full of lvl 85's per server and they are Gods in compairison to most. The Grind makes the game and the more enjoyable the grind is the better the game is in my opinion.
MMO's are grinds. Single player games have an end, you stop playing them. MMO's in theory have no end, how do you make the game have no end without repetitive play (grinds)? I haven't played one MMO that hasn't been like this, at least pve wise. PVP end games are repetitive in their own ways as well.
yeah I equate mmorpg's to grindfests even the simplest of them have "grind". I dont see how you can escape it unless they just hand you engame and all the equipment and money you need /shrug
yeah I equate mmorpg's to grindfests even the simplest of them have "grind". I dont see how you can escape it unless they just hand you engame and all the equipment and money you need /shrug
Or entirely remove the end game entirely so that people stop and enjoy the journey rather than rush to the "finish line". If there is no goal, there's no reason to hurry up and get there.
yeah I equate mmorpg's to grindfests even the simplest of them have "grind". I dont see how you can escape it unless they just hand you engame and all the equipment and money you need /shrug
Or entirely remove the end game entirely so that people stop and enjoy the journey rather than rush to the "finish line". If there is no goal, there's no reason to hurry up and get there.
that would mean having everything the minute you log in otherwise there is an endgame (where you want to call it one or not its there) every mmorpg has one even the so called "sandboxes" they all have one. Everything has a purpose if there is not one built in place then people make a purpose and work towards it. You can't stop endgame its a product of simply playing. Even if there is not a linear quest line you get to the end of what exists in the game have done and seen it all and then your at the wall. There is still grind there though no matter what system in place there is always a grind no matter how hard people try to disguise it its there just like "endgame" its there to great you
This might be a little off topic, but it's something I've wondered about quite a bit. Developers put way too much into endgame additions when so much could be added to the beginning and middle of the game. Once again, using WoW as an example, they may add a new raid instance with every major content patch, or several with new expansions, but if you want to start a new character, you're basically playing the same exact game from 2004. Sure, TBC added the new races and starting areas, but why no love for the originals? I bet that if new levelling content were added to Elwynn Forest or Tirisfal Glades, for example, the longevity would increase because the replayability would be enhanced. Even after TBC, once I gained level 15 or so in the Blood Elf starting zones, it was back out into the main gameworld, playing the same 15-60 content as everyone else has been playing since release.
The game world is huge. There's so much that could be added to keep the middle game interesting.
The problem is inherent of MMORPGs with a tiered content system that focuses entirely on advancement. The goal of the developers is to keep players playing the game by making an extremely long grind, and as long as they can development new timesinks before players can complete them, they can keep them playing. This is extremely easy for the devs to do. The reason they don't add mid level content is because people will surpass is relatively quickly, and everything eventually becomes obsolete, so they focus on the "end game". If they on the other hand had variety in the items you got, in such a way that they might remain useful regardless of your level, then they would likely add more mid level content. But the money is in the majority who are at level 80 or whatever the cap happens to be, and they want to keep those guys playing the game. You have to wonder what those players would do if Blizzard stopped upping the level cap with expansions and adding higher tiers of weapons and armor to grind boss monsters for. Would they quit the game? or go PvPing?
Originally posted by Cephus404
Originally posted by fansede Why is only the end game fun? What is fun for you?
I'll be honest, the end game bores the hell out of me. Every character I ever have that hits max level retires. I'll start a new character and my maxed toon exists only to help buff others, etc. I don't raid, I don't gear grind, I don't PvP, I don't give a damn. That's all pointless crap. It's the adventure that matters, the journey to the top. Once you're there, what's the point?
Yep... Unfortunately in most games the adventure is neglected and quite boring and lacks any semblance of a challenge. The only thing you have to look forward to are the artificial rewards and milestones.
Comments
"Pushing for an end result and not enjoying the journey is grinding to me." - Never thought I'd be able to agree with an EQ player on something like that. The problem is that most MMORPGs neglect the journey and make it horrifically boring, the only reason to keep playing is for that end result, the rewards set as goals for you by the game. If you have to try to make it fun by bullshitting with your friends, something is wrong with the game mechanics.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
For Asheron's Call, events never required more than 4 actors. WoW's website states that it has over 200 servers in North America, so we'll be generous and give them 300. Let's say they get paid 10 dollars an hour, why would you need them for more than an hour or two? $12,000 for one event across 300 servers with 4 actors that lasted an hour. 11 million subscribers. $165,000,000 is what Blizzard makes per MONTH on World of Warcraft. That's 0.007% of their monthly income. If you want to argue that nobody would do that for $10 an hour, I would GLADLY do that for $5 an hour. Play a game as an epic story character and entertain thousands of players? Fuck yes. Not to mention, the devs and GMs would most likely gladly do the part, it's not like they're spending their time working on real content anyway.
I agree that it's there to keep people coming back, but it does so in a very poor manner akin to what a drug dealer would employ, people get attached to the time investment they've put into the game, and while they dislike not being high, they'll do whatever it takes for that next hit of epics.
I guess all I can really say is that a PvE focused game isn't really sustainable, unless you focus on random generation more often (like AC did with armor and weapons), and allow people to customize with variety rather than go through different higher and higher tiers. Then just let them enjoy the quests that get added, make more interesting quests like I listed on an earlier page about Asheron's Call that are repeatable. If they're good enough and there are enough quests, people definitely won't mind redoing old quests because they enjoy the challenge of making it through the dungeon, and the reward they receive.
Edited for readability.
Edited again because this post editor is buggy as hell.
Anything in life is a grind, but it's just whether or not that grind is FUN. If the grind is fun, then it doesn't really feel like a grind at all though it might be repetitive.
Well shit, I'm convinced.
/agree. I'll also agree with the point that the journey has been forgotten, only the end. I've played a lot of MMOs, and (to use a well known game) WoW was pretty boring for me leveling up. I couldn't find a group for ANYthing because if anybody wanted to run a low level dungeon, they had a level 70 run them through it. I soloed all the way up. I thought to myself the whole time, "Why am I paying 15$ a month for a single player game!?" I also told myself that when I hit max level, the REAL game would begin. To a point I was correct, but then I found myself grinding in groups! Yay!
What can cut down on the "grinding", you ask? Well, make the journey fun and interesting! Make it so when I walk into a town, it randomly bursts into flames because dragons are attacking it! Make it so when I'm flying my fighter into a station to dock, it gets attacked by pirates! Write a story for me that I feel compelled to read and feel like a part of, not "Please go and kill 10 rats in my farm." Hell, most of the stories from 70 to 80 in WoW were very good stories and very compelling, and it finally felt GOOD to read the quest text rather than a chore! Give me immersion, and I'll use those same buttons all day long to fight enemies! Give me nothing but my buttons, and it quickly wastes to nothing.
"Imagination and fiction make up more than three quarters of our real life."
Simone Weil
/agree. I'll also agree with the point that the journey has been forgotten, only the end. I've played a lot of MMOs, and (to use a well known game) WoW was pretty boring for me leveling up. I couldn't find a group for ANYthing because if anybody wanted to run a low level dungeon, they had a level 70 run them through it. I soloed all the way up. I thought to myself the whole time, "Why am I paying 15$ a month for a single player game!?" I also told myself that when I hit max level, the REAL game would begin. To a point I was correct, but then I found myself grinding in groups! Yay!
What can cut down on the "grinding", you ask? Well, make the journey fun and interesting! Make it so when I walk into a town, it randomly bursts into flames because dragons are attacking it! Make it so when I'm flying my fighter into a station to dock, it gets attacked by pirates! Write a story for me that I feel compelled to read and feel like a part of, not "Please go and kill 10 rats in my farm." Hell, most of the stories from 70 to 80 in WoW were very good stories and very compelling, and it finally felt GOOD to read the quest text rather than a chore! Give me immersion, and I'll use those same buttons all day long to fight enemies! Give me nothing but my buttons, and it quickly wastes to nothing.
While I agree that good story is fun, and keeps me playing, and is lacking in most of our new mmo's I think the real compelling factor, that makes a mmo good, makes the grind fun.......is a good comunity.
I think when its all said and done we can all agree that a good comunity is 70% of the "fun" but the big million dollar question, s how can the devs make a game that promotes a "good comunity"? sugestions?
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/agree. I'll also agree with the point that the journey has been forgotten, only the end. I've played a lot of MMOs, and (to use a well known game) WoW was pretty boring for me leveling up. I couldn't find a group for ANYthing because if anybody wanted to run a low level dungeon, they had a level 70 run them through it. I soloed all the way up. I thought to myself the whole time, "Why am I paying 15$ a month for a single player game!?" I also told myself that when I hit max level, the REAL game would begin. To a point I was correct, but then I found myself grinding in groups! Yay!
What can cut down on the "grinding", you ask? Well, make the journey fun and interesting! Make it so when I walk into a town, it randomly bursts into flames because dragons are attacking it! Make it so when I'm flying my fighter into a station to dock, it gets attacked by pirates! Write a story for me that I feel compelled to read and feel like a part of, not "Please go and kill 10 rats in my farm." Hell, most of the stories from 70 to 80 in WoW were very good stories and very compelling, and it finally felt GOOD to read the quest text rather than a chore! Give me immersion, and I'll use those same buttons all day long to fight enemies! Give me nothing but my buttons, and it quickly wastes to nothing.
While I agree that good story is fun, and keeps me playing, and is lacking in most of our new mmo's I think the real compelling factor, that makes a mmo good, makes the grind fun.......is a good comunity.
I think when its all said and done we can all agree that a good comunity is 70% of the "fun" but the big million dollar question, s how can the devs make a game that promotes a "good comunity"? sugestions?
You can't. No matter how much you try to inspire the general good of people, there's always going to be someone to come along and take a big fat dump on it. The only kind of control that can reasonably be put in place are things like rulesets for RP. No l33tspeak names, must always be in character in chat channels, etc. Stuff that comes with a heavy banhammer to exert a little conditioning for the greater good of the community. Other than that, you have to rely on the general game populace. I might be a little more cynical than the average person, but in all my years dealing with people (and I'm no kid by any stretch of the imagination) the one thing you can rely on is someone fucking up the works. It doesn't take very many, either. Coupled with too much of a laissez-faire attitude with the game administrators, all it takes is a handful of douchenuggets to make paying subscribers go "I'm not paying for this shit" and drop out.
Unfortunatly, people suck.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
A grind is doing the same damn thing over and over and over.
To fix that you put enough interesting content so people dont feel like they are doing the same thing . For instance, you can put interesting story in so that the player doesnt feel like he is JUST killing stuff. Also, you can put in a complex combat system so that players cannot figure out THE BEST thread of abilities and always do the same combination fight after fight after fight. In a decent combat system you will need to changeup your combination of attacks all the time. Keeping people thinking about what they need to be doing takes away the grind.
It is true that different players need more or less interesting stuff to make it not a grind, but that does not imply that the grind is just imaginary. It certainly exists.
No.
I enjoyed beating it after several tries, which most players nowadays wouldn't like. Frustration just makes it all that much sweeter when I finally clear the stage. Just as you said, but it's irrelevant to my actual point you're not getting.
/agree. I'll also agree with the point that the journey has been forgotten, only the end. I've played a lot of MMOs, and (to use a well known game) WoW was pretty boring for me leveling up. I couldn't find a group for ANYthing because if anybody wanted to run a low level dungeon, they had a level 70 run them through it. I soloed all the way up. I thought to myself the whole time, "Why am I paying 15$ a month for a single player game!?" I also told myself that when I hit max level, the REAL game would begin. To a point I was correct, but then I found myself grinding in groups! Yay!
What can cut down on the "grinding", you ask? Well, make the journey fun and interesting! Make it so when I walk into a town, it randomly bursts into flames because dragons are attacking it! Make it so when I'm flying my fighter into a station to dock, it gets attacked by pirates! Write a story for me that I feel compelled to read and feel like a part of, not "Please go and kill 10 rats in my farm." Hell, most of the stories from 70 to 80 in WoW were very good stories and very compelling, and it finally felt GOOD to read the quest text rather than a chore! Give me immersion, and I'll use those same buttons all day long to fight enemies! Give me nothing but my buttons, and it quickly wastes to nothing.
While I agree that good story is fun, and keeps me playing, and is lacking in most of our new mmo's I think the real compelling factor, that makes a mmo good, makes the grind fun.......is a good comunity.
I think when its all said and done we can all agree that a good comunity is 70% of the "fun" but the big million dollar question, s how can the devs make a game that promotes a "good comunity"? sugestions?
You can't. No matter how much you try to inspire the general good of people, there's always going to be someone to come along and take a big fat dump on it. The only kind of control that can reasonably be put in place are things like rulesets for RP. No l33tspeak names, must always be in character in chat channels, etc. Stuff that comes with a heavy banhammer to exert a little conditioning for the greater good of the community. Other than that, you have to rely on the general game populace. I might be a little more cynical than the average person, but in all my years dealing with people (and I'm no kid by any stretch of the imagination) the one thing you can rely on is someone fucking up the works. It doesn't take very many, either. Coupled with too much of a laissez-faire attitude with the game administrators, all it takes is a handful of douchenuggets to make paying subscribers go "I'm not paying for this shit" and drop out.
Unfortunatly, people suck.
Well I agree that people suck, but at the same time I do think there are things that Devs can do.
once again i'll use FFXI as an example
Slow leveling through zones (generaly speaking you would play with the same people night 2 night, sure it varied a little, but for the most part you'd meet someone and see them again.
Slow crafting (This one maybe not so much, but I do think it helps. Because you arn't able to leve 4 alts all with capped crafts. you have to depend on the auction house. and other players.
PL (power leveling, I think this helps because if a new person starts playing, if the have a current friend they are more likly to catch up)
Larger level "clusters" this one is kinda hard to explain, But it WOW if you are more then 3 levels ahead or behind someone its just dumb for you to play with them, whereas in FFXI you can be 5 levels apart and still do decently. Now this does a couple of things.
1. you spend more time with farmilar faces
2. easier to find groups (less frustration)
3. easier to level/play with RL friends.
Resons to level in groups, in the case of FFXI it was a group orentated game, when in a group you leveled faster and got XP chains and what-not, More reson to group in a game people will be nicer.
Heavier death penaltys (sp?) if it is going to cost you 20% of your overall XP when you die. then you'll sit there as long as possible to get a raise, and while you may not see why this helps with the comunity.....I think it does. It brings them closer togeather, people are more likly to get a raise if they havn't been a jackss for the last hour in the zone.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So while this may not fix things 100% I do think it'd make a big diffrence.
(sorry about the spelling)
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I remember the nightly group spawn camping in DAOC. Was it fun when I was single and could play every night? I guess, but there was no such thing as viable soloing at the time. Would I want to do the forced group thing again? Hell NO!!!! and neither would every other married person I know who USED TO tolerate that sort of play=) Like FFXI it was just a loooooooooooooooooooooooong grind, killing the same stupid mobs in maybe a slightly different spot or the exact same spot for an entire week. That gameplay just won't fly in any large portion outside asian markets. It had one benefit and that was FORCING people to be nice, since if you weren't nice you weren't advancing. The negatives were obvious...linear, restricted gameplay requiring hours of uninterrupted play sessions only conducive to hardcore play.
Its all about the speed of advancement. Its just not tolerable anymore to see something new once every few weeks if your'e lucky. The simple pleasure of a number dinging is not FUN anymore for most people. A MMO needs a lot more than that. Almost every play session needs some form of REAL advancement. New gear, a new spell, a new story, a new acehivement, a new zone to explore, ect. In FFXI, you wouldn't see new abilities or new areas for weeks sometimes, because it all moved so slow. Some people like that. Most don't. Slowing don't advancement and more restircted forced gameplay styles are not the answer. it just leads to a bigger grind. Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for.
I remember the nightly group spawn camping in DAOC. Was it fun when I was single and could play every night? I guess, but there was no such thing as viable soloing at the time. Would I want to do the forced group thing again? Hell NO!!!! and neither would every other married person I know who USED TO tolerate that sort of play=) Like FFXI it was just a loooooooooooooooooooooooong grind, killing the same stupid mobs in maybe a slightly different spot or the exact same spot for an entire week. That gameplay just won't fly in any large portion outside asian markets. It had one benefit and that was FORCING people to be nice, since if you weren't nice you weren't advancing. The negatives were obvious...linear, restricted gameplay requiring hours of uninterrupted play sessions only conducive to hardcore play.
Its all about the speed of advancement. Its just not tolerable anymore to see something new once every few weeks if your'e lucky. The simple pleasure of a number dinging is not FUN anymore for most people. A MMO needs a lot more than that. Almost every play session needs some form of REAL advancement. New gear, a new spell, a new story, a new acehivement, a new zone to explore, ect. In FFXI, you wouldn't see new abilities or new areas for weeks sometimes, because it all moved so slow. Some people like that. Most don't. Slowing don't advancement and more restircted forced gameplay styles are not the answer. it just leads to a bigger grind. Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for.
I would dissagree with you on almost every point. First off, I am married and I do have time to play MMO's (2-4 hours a night) I do worka full time job, no I dont' have kids. no my wife doesn't play mmo's.
As far as the whole "time" agrument, it comes down to how much time you WANT to put into a game. And if you don't want to put more then a hour in a night. DON"T PLAY A MMO!!!!!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Second, I think that the market that was out there for longer grinding games is still out there, its just harder to see because it been engulfed by the mass WoW market. Where people are to lasy to do crap for themselfs.
and that last part "Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for." I know this. That is why they are all trying WoW "clones" or EQ clones...whatever you want. That is why we are getting the same garbage over and over. you sir...are the problem. (well you and about 9million other people like you)
And honestly, I would rather play a slow paced game, where I only advance or get new skills ever week. then play a game where its a single player game and you have to put up with a ton of jckss. *cough*WoW*cough*
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It's a simple solution that most of these devs probably can't do. Create an MMO without levels, without gear for stats, then concentrate on making the game ALL ABOUT FUN. The reason why all MMOs have a grind is because every dev decides to put levels in, gear upgrades, stupid mobs that only get stronger through stats, rep/fame, etc. How can a game not be a grind when 90% of the content is to kill a million animals that are almost identical, asside from appearance?
I wouldn't mind if there were levels and all the other crap that adds to the grind if the whole game was fun. Right now, most of the fun is at end game, so everyone rushes (including me) to max level. IMO there is no fun to be had while leveling (aside from the first or 2nd time). If you've done it in one MMO, it's not much different in the next.
I would agree with you on this point, I like leveling, I like getting new skills and abilitys, I like grinding. But if its no fun its no fun. And I think that is part of the problem, the Devs make this really long game to "keep" people playing longer, and then are like...wait we need an incentive for them to level, so they make a decent endgame, but forget to make the middle part fun also.
Honestly I would be VERY VERY happy with a game that was just like FFXI, but with updated graphics, a larger crafting system...and a few other things to do.
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This might be a little off topic, but it's something I've wondered about quite a bit. Developers put way too much into endgame additions when so much could be added to the beginning and middle of the game. Once again, using WoW as an example, they may add a new raid instance with every major content patch, or several with new expansions, but if you want to start a new character, you're basically playing the same exact game from 2004. Sure, TBC added the new races and starting areas, but why no love for the originals? I bet that if new levelling content were added to Elwynn Forest or Tirisfal Glades, for example, the longevity would increase because the replayability would be enhanced. Even after TBC, once I gained level 15 or so in the Blood Elf starting zones, it was back out into the main gameworld, playing the same 15-60 content as everyone else has been playing since release.
The game world is huge. There's so much that could be added to keep the middle game interesting.
"You'll never win an argument with an idiot because he is too stupid to recognize his own defeat." ~Anonymous
Why is only the end game fun? What is fun for you?
Its been awhile since I played WoW. Do they have a 50/51server?
I remember the nightly group spawn camping in DAOC. Was it fun when I was single and could play every night? I guess, but there was no such thing as viable soloing at the time. Would I want to do the forced group thing again? Hell NO!!!! and neither would every other married person I know who USED TO tolerate that sort of play=) Like FFXI it was just a loooooooooooooooooooooooong grind, killing the same stupid mobs in maybe a slightly different spot or the exact same spot for an entire week. That gameplay just won't fly in any large portion outside asian markets. It had one benefit and that was FORCING people to be nice, since if you weren't nice you weren't advancing. The negatives were obvious...linear, restricted gameplay requiring hours of uninterrupted play sessions only conducive to hardcore play.
Its all about the speed of advancement. Its just not tolerable anymore to see something new once every few weeks if your'e lucky. The simple pleasure of a number dinging is not FUN anymore for most people. A MMO needs a lot more than that. Almost every play session needs some form of REAL advancement. New gear, a new spell, a new story, a new acehivement, a new zone to explore, ect. In FFXI, you wouldn't see new abilities or new areas for weeks sometimes, because it all moved so slow. Some people like that. Most don't. Slowing don't advancement and more restircted forced gameplay styles are not the answer. it just leads to a bigger grind. Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for.
I would dissagree with you on almost every point. First off, I am married and I do have time to play MMO's (2-4 hours a night) I do worka full time job, no I dont' have kids. no my wife doesn't play mmo's.
As far as the whole "time" agrument, it comes down to how much time you WANT to put into a game. And if you don't want to put more then a hour in a night. DON"T PLAY A MMO!!!!!
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Second, I think that the market that was out there for longer grinding games is still out there, its just harder to see because it been engulfed by the mass WoW market. Where people are to lasy to do crap for themselfs.
and that last part "Appealing to the minority is not something any developer is looking for." I know this. That is why they are all trying WoW "clones" or EQ clones...whatever you want. That is why we are getting the same garbage over and over. you sir...are the problem. (well you and about 9million other people like you)
And honestly, I would rather play a slow paced game, where I only advance or get new skills ever week. then play a game where its a single player game and you have to put up with a ton of jckss. *cough*WoW*cough*
It doesn't really help your arguments if you tell people MMOs aren't for them if they don't have enormous time investments to put toward them. People want to have fun when they play, regardless of how much time they have, and when the actual gameplay isn't fun and all they have to look forward to are the milestones and rewards, with an hour of play time a day, they aren't going to reach a milestone or reward for days or even weeks depending on the MMO. Also you have to remember that the original popular MMOs like Asheron's Call and Ultima Online didn't require excessive amounts of time in order to reach a reward or have fun. Both had challenging gameplay that was thoroughly enjoyable, rather than just time consuming.
I'll be honest, the end game bores the hell out of me. Every character I ever have that hits max level retires. I'll start a new character and my maxed toon exists only to help buff others, etc. I don't raid, I don't gear grind, I don't PvP, I don't give a damn. That's all pointless crap.
It's the adventure that matters, the journey to the top. Once you're there, what's the point?
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
I'll be honest, the end game bores the hell out of me. Every character I ever have that hits max level retires. I'll start a new character and my maxed toon exists only to help buff others, etc. I don't raid, I don't gear grind, I don't PvP, I don't give a damn. That's all pointless crap.
It's the adventure that matters, the journey to the top. Once you're there, what's the point?
I agree! The grind is the best part of the game and if I can cap out in lvl with only playing 6 months then its a week grind and I will move on. The only game to keep me for over 6 months atm is L2 and most know that is the biggest grind game around. I only hope Aion is the same or more of a grind. Furthermore the harder the grind the more proud you are of your lvl. In EQ2 it was so easy so everyone is capped out and raiding but in Lineage2 there are only a hand full of lvl 85's per server and they are Gods in compairison to most. The Grind makes the game and the more enjoyable the grind is the better the game is in my opinion.
How is he wrong?
MMO's are grinds. Single player games have an end, you stop playing them. MMO's in theory have no end, how do you make the game have no end without repetitive play (grinds)? I haven't played one MMO that hasn't been like this, at least pve wise. PVP end games are repetitive in their own ways as well.
yeah I equate mmorpg's to grindfests even the simplest of them have "grind". I dont see how you can escape it unless they just hand you engame and all the equipment and money you need /shrug
Or entirely remove the end game entirely so that people stop and enjoy the journey rather than rush to the "finish line". If there is no goal, there's no reason to hurry up and get there.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots more
Relatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots more
Now Playing: None
Hope: None
Or entirely remove the end game entirely so that people stop and enjoy the journey rather than rush to the "finish line". If there is no goal, there's no reason to hurry up and get there.
that would mean having everything the minute you log in otherwise there is an endgame (where you want to call it one or not its there) every mmorpg has one even the so called "sandboxes" they all have one. Everything has a purpose if there is not one built in place then people make a purpose and work towards it. You can't stop endgame its a product of simply playing. Even if there is not a linear quest line you get to the end of what exists in the game have done and seen it all and then your at the wall. There is still grind there though no matter what system in place there is always a grind no matter how hard people try to disguise it its there just like "endgame" its there to great you
The problem is inherent of MMORPGs with a tiered content system that focuses entirely on advancement. The goal of the developers is to keep players playing the game by making an extremely long grind, and as long as they can development new timesinks before players can complete them, they can keep them playing. This is extremely easy for the devs to do. The reason they don't add mid level content is because people will surpass is relatively quickly, and everything eventually becomes obsolete, so they focus on the "end game". If they on the other hand had variety in the items you got, in such a way that they might remain useful regardless of your level, then they would likely add more mid level content. But the money is in the majority who are at level 80 or whatever the cap happens to be, and they want to keep those guys playing the game. You have to wonder what those players would do if Blizzard stopped upping the level cap with expansions and adding higher tiers of weapons and armor to grind boss monsters for. Would they quit the game? or go PvPing?
Yep... Unfortunately in most games the adventure is neglected and quite boring and lacks any semblance of a challenge. The only thing you have to look forward to are the artificial rewards and milestones.