If anyone would like to share their opinion of Sanya's absolutely brilliant social commentary with the owner of this site, they may like to send a note to admin@mmorpg.com
Some random rules from the RoC Miss Sanya should take a moment to read:
MMORPG.com is a site to discuss massively multiplayer online roleplay gaming. While users are encouraged and permitted to use our Off-Topic forum to discuss real life and non-MMORPG gaming, threads concerning sensitive subjects such as religion, politics, or ethics may be locked or deleted if determined out of hand by the MMORPG.com moderator staff.
Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums.
reading over most of the posts i thought it was a general racists/homophobes/bigots in chat groups, but it comes across that it is much more emotionally rooted.
People use the Nword to ilicit a responce that responce may be position or negative, however they feed on the negative more than the positive. Likewise using the words gay or rape or so forth. Like a litteral vampire they crave the negativity they generate.
And so we end up with the situation where someone who truely might feel offence from a word gives these people a negative responce. which is why when the term "Nvidia is gay" was used people asked why are they happy and so forth, which was a positive responce people didnt find it offensive and so it was rendered null in the terms of the chat group, and so people moved on. However the Nword triggered such a negative outcry that it succeeded in what it planned on doing. If people did the same to the Nword as they did to the gay word it wouldnt be such an issue. It would had shown a maturity we dont normally see from games.
I think now that if someone responded to me "hey nword whats up" i may be more inclined to accept it in the term it is used, not as an offensive term aimed at the black comunity but instead used as the rappers and pop idols use it as a term of endearment, im sure some will find it offensive but i hope those that understand this would accept that the person using it is either, 1 black or 2 ignorant of the terminoloy. Likewise using the word gay in the same concept.
I never think personal attacks on other people or people quoting massive blocks of text should the poster should sit back and consider "is that person attacking me with a knife and i have to defend myself with a shotgun". no they are typing on a forum from the otherside of the planet (possibly) and ill never actually meet them so who cares what they type.
I think life is full of choices and you can either make the choice to fuel fires or you can just accept that some people have different views than others, we arnt all the same and we have all grown up in different circumstances and even different countries / cultures. i would never dream of aproaching a black dude and saying "whats up nword" (i cant even type it im that indoctrinated) i just couldnt see me doing it even if i knew them and they said it was alright i still wouldnt.
Like wise someone who has grown up in a comunity where its normal would see my responce as probbly bizare and strange. Lets all remember we are humans and the internet has provided us to meet and greet with cultures and people from all over the globe.
Words are purely, completely, and utterly subjective. Meaning is interpreted by the receiver, and is affected by social context and expected intent. Basically, words mean whatever the listener/reader believes they mean.
The astute transmitter learns to navigate expected context and subjective interpretation, making sure that their intended message is as close as possible to the interpreted one.
The idiotic transmitter will assume that their form of communication, with its purely subjective qualities, is best and/or that it should be tolerated merely because they're using it. There's nothing that says subjective interpretations must be equally treated, and they often aren't.
Humans are finicky and often cowardly beings. The younger, in general, the more cowardly. Anonymity gives them false courage, but lock them in a room with the people they have issues with, and suddenly their vim and vigor disappear in favor of excuses and accusations. It becomes dangerous if it persists into old age, where ignorance of the subjectivity of interpretation leads to miscommunication or laziness.
Is language evolving? Yes. However, acceptable language is determined by the majority power (quite a lot like most other things), and oddly enough - just because you have the right to free speech, doesn't mean you won't get severely punished for it if it pisses off those in power. Is it unfair? Well, that assumes fairness is obtainable. It's not. History has always been written by the victors, and those in power will always make the rules. Hierarchies have always existed, and will always exist.
So, in relation to language - it just depends where you are and who you're dealing with. As I said before, anonymity (and lack of immediate recourse) makes for a lot of idiots in MMOs who feel like it's fine saying whatever they want. Practically speaking, they are fine - if there's no one to punish them, then habits will not change. However, another danger of the practice is that once something becomes a habit, it leaks into other areas of your life subconsciously. I guarantee you, you will never be hired for a 6-figure salary if you ever use the word "Gay" or "N*****." It won't happen. You'll be stuck at McDonald's bitching about the cost of gas. Try using either one on a grad-school application; same thing will happen. You'll be put in the "Rejected" pile so quickly they won't have time to look at your credentials (unless, of course, it's a constructive abstract dealing with the flamboyancy of either term in an education light - but that's a different context). Most people know this. When it matters, when your livelihood depends on you not being a jerk, most people will opt for the easiest route to their goal.
Those that row against the flow, and have been successful doing so, have done so in an extremely calculated manner so as to talk in the language of the majority power while also introducing new ideas. Those are the smart people.
Some random rules from the RoC Miss Sanya should take a moment to read: MMORPG.com is a site to discuss massively multiplayer online roleplay gaming. While users are encouraged and permitted to use our Off-Topic forum to discuss real life and non-MMORPG gaming, threads concerning sensitive subjects such as religion, politics, or ethics may be locked or deleted if determined out of hand by the MMORPG.com moderator staff.
Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums.
Having read most of what is posted on mmorpg for a few years, I have to say that your collum on the industrys inner workings is the best of a reasonably good bunch. Mmorpg should sell another ad and give you a raise.
"When you say someone who is physically weak “throws like a girl,” that you got a good bargain by “Jewing the seller down,” and that something contemptible is “gay,” your speech reflects at best the result of a sick, bigoted culture. At worst your speech is saying you are sick and bigoted."
Is this a joke? If I want to say "something is 'retarded' or 'gay'" in the privacy of my own home or with people I know and won't take offense to it, I will. I'm smart enough to have something called tact. You trying to completely eradicate such sayings that YOU deem to be offensive and that are not "politically correct" is, to phrase is like you, naive at best and dillusional at worst. It's laughable that you even consider someone saying "you throw like a girl" to be sick and bigoted...Whatever, no use in trying to persuade you, you're just an ignorant girl who throws like a gay retarded jew. < how's that for you! can't wait to be banned because im sick and bigoted...lol
Words are purely, completely, and utterly subjective. Meaning is interpreted by the receiver, and is affected by social context and expected intent. Basically, words mean whatever the listener/reader believes they mean. The astute transmitter learns to navigate expected context and subjective interpretation, making sure that their intended message is as close as possible to the interpreted one. The idiotic transmitter will assume that their form of communication, with its purely subjective qualities, is best and/or that it should be tolerated merely because they're using it. There's nothing that says subjective interpretations must be equally treated, and they often aren't. Humans are finicky and often cowardly beings. The younger, in general, the more cowardly. Anonymity gives them false courage, but lock them in a room with the people they have issues with, and suddenly their vim and vigor disappear in favor of excuses and accusations. It becomes dangerous if it persists into old age, where ignorance of the subjectivity of interpretation leads to miscommunication or laziness. Is language evolving? Yes. However, acceptable language is determined by the majority power (quite a lot like most other things), and oddly enough - just because you have the right to free speech, doesn't mean you won't get severely punished for it if it pisses off those in power. Is it unfair? Well, that assumes fairness is obtainable. It's not. History has always been written by the victors, and those in power will always make the rules. Hierarchies have always existed, and will always exist. So, in relation to language - it just depends where you are and who you're dealing with. As I said before, anonymity (and lack of immediate recourse) makes for a lot of idiots in MMOs who feel like it's fine saying whatever they want. Practically speaking, they are fine - if there's no one to punish them, then habits will not change. However, another danger of the practice is that once something becomes a habit, it leaks into other areas of your life subconsciously. I guarantee you, you will never be hired for a 6-figure salary if you ever use the word "Gay" or "N*****." It won't happen. You'll be stuck at McDonald's bitching about the cost of gas. Try using either one on a grad-school application; same thing will happen. You'll be put in the "Rejected" pile so quickly they won't have time to look at your credentials (unless, of course, it's a constructive abstract dealing with the flamboyancy of either term in an education light - but that's a different context). Most people know this. When it matters, when your livelihood depends on you not being a jerk, most people will opt for the easiest route to their goal. Those that row against the flow, and have been successful doing so, have done so in an extremely calculated manner so as to talk in the language of the majority power while also introducing new ideas. Those are the smart people. Others are monumental idiots.
This! Egamst3k has it exact. I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore. Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority. And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends. However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be. So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others. This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.
Words are purely, completely, and utterly subjective. Meaning is interpreted by the receiver, and is affected by social context and expected intent. Basically, words mean whatever the listener/reader believes they mean. The astute transmitter learns to navigate expected context and subjective interpretation, making sure that their intended message is as close as possible to the interpreted one. The idiotic transmitter will assume that their form of communication, with its purely subjective qualities, is best and/or that it should be tolerated merely because they're using it. There's nothing that says subjective interpretations must be equally treated, and they often aren't. Humans are finicky and often cowardly beings. The younger, in general, the more cowardly. Anonymity gives them false courage, but lock them in a room with the people they have issues with, and suddenly their vim and vigor disappear in favor of excuses and accusations. It becomes dangerous if it persists into old age, where ignorance of the subjectivity of interpretation leads to miscommunication or laziness. Is language evolving? Yes. However, acceptable language is determined by the majority power (quite a lot like most other things), and oddly enough - just because you have the right to free speech, doesn't mean you won't get severely punished for it if it pisses off those in power. Is it unfair? Well, that assumes fairness is obtainable. It's not. History has always been written by the victors, and those in power will always make the rules. Hierarchies have always existed, and will always exist. So, in relation to language - it just depends where you are and who you're dealing with. As I said before, anonymity (and lack of immediate recourse) makes for a lot of idiots in MMOs who feel like it's fine saying whatever they want. Practically speaking, they are fine - if there's no one to punish them, then habits will not change. However, another danger of the practice is that once something becomes a habit, it leaks into other areas of your life subconsciously. I guarantee you, you will never be hired for a 6-figure salary if you ever use the word "Gay" or "N*****." It won't happen. You'll be stuck at McDonald's bitching about the cost of gas. Try using either one on a grad-school application; same thing will happen. You'll be put in the "Rejected" pile so quickly they won't have time to look at your credentials (unless, of course, it's a constructive abstract dealing with the flamboyancy of either term in an education light - but that's a different context). Most people know this. When it matters, when your livelihood depends on you not being a jerk, most people will opt for the easiest route to their goal. Those that row against the flow, and have been successful doing so, have done so in an extremely calculated manner so as to talk in the language of the majority power while also introducing new ideas. Those are the smart people. Others are monumental idiots.
This! Egamst3k has it exact. I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore. Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority. And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends. However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be. So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others. This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.
Yes, it's called tact. Nobody should go out of their way to offend somebody or say things that they know will piss people off but the reality is you can't stop that from happening, short of killing them or putting them in prison. That being said, in terms of an MMO community since that's what we're talking about here. If someone breaches the ToS then ban them because they breached the terms of service, don't try to push on them your moral beliefs because it's not your place. Now when talking about real life, take things on a case by case basis. Sometimes people are simply kidding around. Should we burn all the movies and books that have used "language" in a non politically correct way even if they're simply kidding around? If not then I don't think we should go about eliminating it from real life.
So yes, people should ideally be tactful and yes people should be allowed to kid around as well. Eliminating freedom of speech is a heavy price to pay for not offending some people.
Edit: I don't think she was trying to say that in order to please the majority we should act with manners while in public chat for instance (although this is probably not a bad idea). To me, she seemed to have some deep personal problems with people who use this "politically incorrect" language AT ALL. As in, no matter where you say it. Her point was that she was surprised to see people defending what in her mind was the right way to act and what to say in an MMO community or for that matter online community. It's exactly that though, in her mind. The issue here is if you disagree with her you'd surely get a large cup of haterade shoved down your throat. She seems to think her point of view should be held by everyone in society and we should all adopt the politically correct mindset and act like robots in order to wash away the influence of a "bigoted" society. Only problem is a) that would be boring and b) it's never gonna happen! It's human nature and the anonymity of the internet just brings out the worst in us. Human nature hasn't changed since, well, forever, so it's not going to change anytime soon
Words are purely, completely, and utterly subjective. Meaning is interpreted by the receiver, and is affected by social context and expected intent. Basically, words mean whatever the listener/reader believes they mean. The astute transmitter learns to navigate expected context and subjective interpretation, making sure that their intended message is as close as possible to the interpreted one. The idiotic transmitter will assume that their form of communication, with its purely subjective qualities, is best and/or that it should be tolerated merely because they're using it. There's nothing that says subjective interpretations must be equally treated, and they often aren't. Humans are finicky and often cowardly beings. The younger, in general, the more cowardly. Anonymity gives them false courage, but lock them in a room with the people they have issues with, and suddenly their vim and vigor disappear in favor of excuses and accusations. It becomes dangerous if it persists into old age, where ignorance of the subjectivity of interpretation leads to miscommunication or laziness. Is language evolving? Yes. However, acceptable language is determined by the majority power (quite a lot like most other things), and oddly enough - just because you have the right to free speech, doesn't mean you won't get severely punished for it if it pisses off those in power. Is it unfair? Well, that assumes fairness is obtainable. It's not. History has always been written by the victors, and those in power will always make the rules. Hierarchies have always existed, and will always exist. So, in relation to language - it just depends where you are and who you're dealing with. As I said before, anonymity (and lack of immediate recourse) makes for a lot of idiots in MMOs who feel like it's fine saying whatever they want. Practically speaking, they are fine - if there's no one to punish them, then habits will not change. However, another danger of the practice is that once something becomes a habit, it leaks into other areas of your life subconsciously. I guarantee you, you will never be hired for a 6-figure salary if you ever use the word "Gay" or "N*****." It won't happen. You'll be stuck at McDonald's bitching about the cost of gas. Try using either one on a grad-school application; same thing will happen. You'll be put in the "Rejected" pile so quickly they won't have time to look at your credentials (unless, of course, it's a constructive abstract dealing with the flamboyancy of either term in an education light - but that's a different context). Most people know this. When it matters, when your livelihood depends on you not being a jerk, most people will opt for the easiest route to their goal. Those that row against the flow, and have been successful doing so, have done so in an extremely calculated manner so as to talk in the language of the majority power while also introducing new ideas. Those are the smart people. Others are monumental idiots.
This! Egamst3k has it exact. I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore. Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority. And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends. However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be. So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others. This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.
Wait.....<blinks>.....you are proposing a conformity to the masses even though some would strongly disagree with the masses???? If people always rolled over and did this we wouldn't have ended slavery when we did (if ever..who knows). How very seriously IRONIC.
Ugh, these posts are getting entirely too long to read.
To the guy that commented about "white priveledge." You sir, have an outdated perspective.
I'm sure in some backwards corner of the USA you can chop off your mullet and go into a bank and get a loan before a black guy does.
In reality though, some poor white guy with a mullet freshly shaven and no/poor credit is not going to get a loan period. Neither will a black guy with the same financial situation. However, if said black guy has a job and credit, he will get the loan where as the trailer trash with no credit won't.
Guess what...banks are out to make money. If you have the credit, you get the loan, if you don't, you won't. Doesn't matter where you come from or what color your skin is, it matters what Experion says about your ability to pay your bills.
I'm so sick of people trying these tired arguments. White priveledge my ass.
Wow. I haven't gotten so frustrated reading an article in quite a while. Read on and I'll explain why it got me riled up.
Here's the deal: I'll tell you what's truly ignorant. Saying that someone is scum because they use the word "gay" in conversation is what's ignorant. This faux morality is really starting to get old. The PC crowd has been doing the same thing for 40 years: They don't believe in God and don't have any REAL moral code, but they try to create their own relativistic, humanistic morality with butt-kissing platitudes to supposedly under-represented minorities. If you're really that concerned with being nice and fair, then let's see the PC love spread all around. Let's see Sanya or any other PC enthusiast get up in arms about someone using terms like redneck or hillbilly. It simply isn't going to happen. Why? Because they're white, religious, and conservative.
Also, I'm getting tired of gays being placed in the same conversation as african-americans, jews, and so on. Frankly, it's an insult to these latter groups who have been wronged throughout history for something they have no control over (their ethnicity) with what is, as far as we know, a mere choice. Yeah, yeah, I hear it coming now. "Omg, being gay is not a choice." Well, all I know is that a black person didn't make himself black, but if I go out and have sex with another guy, then I have succeeded in making myself gay. I may have a genetic makeup that predisposes me to being a murderer, but that doesn't mean I was born a murderer.
The bottom line is simple: Worry about how a word or term will affect the actual people you're referring to, not how it will affect Mr. or Ms. Self-Righteous. Look, I love black people, asians, women, the mentally challenged, and every other "under-represented minority," and I would personally never shout out the n-word in real life or in a chat on a game, but to say that someone is scum if they do is simply taking things too far. Furthermore, to suggest that the n-word and gay are equally offensive is outrageous.
Ugh, these posts are getting entirely too long to read. To the guy that commented about "white priveledge." You sir, have an outdated perspective. I'm sure in some backwards corner of the USA you can chop off your mullet and go into a bank and get a loan before a black guy does. In reality though, some poor white guy with a mullet freshly shaven and no/poor credit is not going to get a loan period. Neither will a black guy with the same financial situation. However, if said black guy has a job and credit, he will get the loan where as the trailer trash with no credit won't. Guess what...banks are out to make money. If you have the credit, you get the loan, if you don't, you won't. Doesn't matter where you come from or what color your skin is, it matters what Experion says about your ability to pay your bills. I'm so sick of people trying these tired arguments. White priveledge my ass.
But...but....Sanya linked a .pdf titled "White Privilege" from the 1980's which shows how it's so current and applicable. How could Mr. mullet be wrong when he is only affirming what the glorious Sanya says?
I mean, surely Sanya wouldn't lie or misrepresent things to support her claims, would she? Surely not.....
Hey, I never said I agreed with Sanya on this article, but I'm probably more of a realist and less of a politically correct idealist than many here.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said Zorvan, except I think everyone is being a bit harsh on Sanya. It was an OPINION piece of fluff, and hell, it has generated about 14 pages of forum posts now. I don't think she meant to bait and troll anyone, I just don't think she appreciated how many people would vehemently disagree with her.
It's a sign of the times. People are tired of being sheep. Tired of being told what's ok to say and not to say, tired of being told they are wrong and should apologize for things that their great great great grandfathers may or may not have done.
Me...I'm floating around in the middle somewhere, My father descended from irish immigrants, my mother is an Indian woman from the west indies. I have lived the worst of both ends of the spectrum, never quite fitting in either, and I've definitely seen the polar shift from the minorities being downtrodden to the majority being crucified simply for being the majority.
On either end it's ridiculous, and I blame most of it on the apologist "politically correct" climate that has been nurtured in this country. It is the motherload of knee jerk reaction, over compensating for things that have already happened. There was a point and time that many of the things going on today were needed, perhaps, but that time is past, as the pendulum is swinging the other way now and doing more damage than it is repairing.
As far as the actual topic of this thread, as derailed as it is...I could care less what people say in a chat. I can always block them.
But from a CS point of view, and on the dev side as opposed to the player side, I can see the side Sanya presents also, though I don't agree with her entirely.
Prejudice is an ugly thing, most of us are guilty of it. Some people are blatantly prejudiced, but many of the worst cloak their discrimination beneath a false veil of rightous anger....which is the worst. They don't even have the decency to admit their own discriminations to themselves, let alone anyone else.
Originally posted by kalagaraz You say you get annoyed by people who say things like "Nvidia's Gay" or "Man that's gay" or something similar and I find you to be ignorant for that. If you are a writer, you should know that definitions of words are not set in stone, meanings change through their usage. Gay use to mean happy, then it use to mean being homosexual, now in the generation that I grew up in (I'm 20 now) gay was always used as a word just to mean something that's was lame or stupid. "Man I paid $4000 for that motorcycle and the dang clutch broke the next day", "Awww dude that's gay". People who want to argue about people's word usage are just being ignorant themselves. People are not required to follow your strict rules for word usage. Based on this article, I'm surprised you don't get upset every time you read a book and see the writer using personification... "The tree whispered to me as I walked by, almost as if it felt my pain. "..."Ahaha trees can't talk! what a ignornant fool! Now while I personally may not use the N word myself I don't get all upset when I see someone else use it. If you pay attention, you will notice that it is used a lot more commonly even in the real world, not just in anonymous chat. While it may be ironic or anyoxymoron, that cause is due to LESS racism, not more. Black (I say black, because all my black friends in real life hate being called african american. I quote "I'm not from africa! I was born and raised here in america, I am american!") people have always referred to each other like that, but as younger black kids make more white friends their white friends start to use it as well, and it becomes less and less taboo every day.
Yes.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
I think she is right. I base this on the fact that any 8 year old can say what he wants to and get away with it on the internet. The anonymity of the internet turns everyone into a tuff guy who's opinion is never wrong. I played World of Warcraft for 4ish years and almost every time I left it was because the community was the equivalent of a bunch of kids who were bullied in highschool seeking revenge on every person that was in thier path.
I say nigger and other racist comments but I don't say it when someone around me could get offended. I keep it in the closesness of my own friends. I'm not out to hurt anyone's feelings and I would hope that others act and feel the same way but it just isn't true. When you play video games with others, especially the amount of people in WoW, you will get mixed feelings on varying subjects. Some of those subjects may offend someone and they feel the need to speak up about it to the original player who started the discussion or mentioned said heated topic. Generally (please note i said generally and not all the time) the person who offended the other person gets offended that someone was offended by what he/she said and will then argue and do everything in his/her power to discredit the other person and make them look stupid.
The bad part about this and the internet is the anonymity. Anonymity empowers the 115 lb nerd who could never stand up for himself in highschool to slander-fuck someone in open public. It generally has no consequences and is usually provoked by the rest of the community with their snide remarks. My basic theory is that these people who act out in video games and act as if they don't care about other people's feelings are the ones who were treated poorly in highschool, have bad relationships with their parents, feel misunderstood by their peers, or generally just don't care about hurting other peoples feelings. The fact is that this sort of maturity...or lack there of is sad.
I, personally, blame parents today for the way their kids act. I know that these people aren't all kids but a good marjority of them are. Using a video game as a babysitter is unacceptable and I think parents should step up be an actual parent. They need to know what their kid is doing and saying when they are online.
Punishments should be more harsh than they are from video game CSRs and GMs. The fact that you can go on most video games today and cuss someone out for no apparent reason and only end up with a 24 hour suspension if the other person is lucky is quite shameful. I think if CSRs and GMs would step up and out right ban these people that it would get the point accross. People will be upset and talk bad and hate you on the forums but most people will praise you for actually doing your job and keeping the peace.
I also propose that a log be kept for one week of the chat sessions that people have on MMO's. I think that this should be in the parental features that most MMO's provide today with their games. It would be held for one week and then several days after that week and then ultimately deleted. It would highlight swear words and any similarities such as "phuck" or "$hit" so that the parents can see how their child acts while online. It can also provide detailed information about tickets that were opened against them for certain behaviours. I believe this would alleviate some of the stress that can be found in many MMOs today.
First and foremost we are playing a game. It should be enjoyable, but there is always someone who wants to ruin it for someone else. Anonymity promotes conflict. I do believe in the /ignore features and I also believe in the chat filters but the fact that those are provided in-game does not give someone a license to verbal-fuck me in the A. Most of the people who act this way do not act the same way out on the street. If you take away the anonymity and help provide parent's a way to see what their child or teen is doing then I believe you will be one step further to nurturing a great gaming community that people want to be a part of.
If you made it this far I commend you on reading the whole thing and look forward to your comments on my thoughts.
After reading this whole thread I am sure more than ever that US citizens should be more concerned about their general racism towards non-US population than the one they show towards their own. It also serves very well as an insight into the problems of the US education.
After reading this whole thread I am sure more than ever that US citizens should be more concerned about their general racism towards non-US population than the one they show towards their own. It also serves very well as an insight into the problems of the US education.
Ignorance can be found ANYWHERE on the planet, not just the US. If I might add, that was a pretty ignorant statement. I have lived in many countries and seen many different types of "hate", it is NOT exclusive to the US. You failed. So many countries have stupid things to say about Americans, jokes, remarks, whatever...It's global.
Everyone needs to be aware, and the sooner we stop looking at the colour of one's skin, or how much wealth someone has, or what disability they have to live with, or even what sex they sleep with, the sooner "racism" will cease to exist.
The truth of the matter is, how we let words affect us. That is what it boils down to. If you let something upset you, only then, does it have power over you. I for one, will not let a mere word "victimize" me.
Now I understand that sometimes words can lead to more, it can breed hate, and spread stupidity. But to be honest, this is something that has to be stopped at it's roots.
Words are purely, completely, and utterly subjective. Meaning is interpreted by the receiver, and is affected by social context and expected intent. Basically, words mean whatever the listener/reader believes they mean. The astute transmitter learns to navigate expected context and subjective interpretation, making sure that their intended message is as close as possible to the interpreted one. The idiotic transmitter will assume that their form of communication, with its purely subjective qualities, is best and/or that it should be tolerated merely because they're using it. There's nothing that says subjective interpretations must be equally treated, and they often aren't. Humans are finicky and often cowardly beings. The younger, in general, the more cowardly. Anonymity gives them false courage, but lock them in a room with the people they have issues with, and suddenly their vim and vigor disappear in favor of excuses and accusations. It becomes dangerous if it persists into old age, where ignorance of the subjectivity of interpretation leads to miscommunication or laziness. Is language evolving? Yes. However, acceptable language is determined by the majority power (quite a lot like most other things), and oddly enough - just because you have the right to free speech, doesn't mean you won't get severely punished for it if it pisses off those in power. Is it unfair? Well, that assumes fairness is obtainable. It's not. History has always been written by the victors, and those in power will always make the rules. Hierarchies have always existed, and will always exist. So, in relation to language - it just depends where you are and who you're dealing with. As I said before, anonymity (and lack of immediate recourse) makes for a lot of idiots in MMOs who feel like it's fine saying whatever they want. Practically speaking, they are fine - if there's no one to punish them, then habits will not change. However, another danger of the practice is that once something becomes a habit, it leaks into other areas of your life subconsciously. I guarantee you, you will never be hired for a 6-figure salary if you ever use the word "Gay" or "N*****." It won't happen. You'll be stuck at McDonald's bitching about the cost of gas. Try using either one on a grad-school application; same thing will happen. You'll be put in the "Rejected" pile so quickly they won't have time to look at your credentials (unless, of course, it's a constructive abstract dealing with the flamboyancy of either term in an education light - but that's a different context). Most people know this. When it matters, when your livelihood depends on you not being a jerk, most people will opt for the easiest route to their goal. Those that row against the flow, and have been successful doing so, have done so in an extremely calculated manner so as to talk in the language of the majority power while also introducing new ideas. Those are the smart people. Others are monumental idiots.
This! Egamst3k has it exact. I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore. Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority. And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends. However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be. So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others. This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.
I'm pretty sure most feel that way. My problem is trying to say a person using a flagrant, bigoted term somehow equates to someone using a catchphrase that has become quite common amongst some without any inent of those using it directed at any particualr group of people and saying both parties have the same intentions, hatred, and vile opinion of fellow human beings. That doesn't mean myself or some others think saying those types of things are watercooler chat or used anywhere and everywhere without thinking of how your words will affect others. At the very least how it would affect others opinions of yourself.
However, trying to say they're both the same and come from some deepseated hatred towards others is ridiculous and rather asinine.
...and the moment you start doing crap like stating those types of comments or posting a link to a White Privilidge.pdf it moves beyond a CSR perspective on chat in mmos and moves into an entirely different area. Which is fine, I don't see anything wrong with the discussion but lets be realistic there's more to this article than just "think before you type/talk because your words can hurt or be misintrepreted". It would have been nice if that was all there was to it but it was made rather apparent by the writer that it wasn't.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Comments
If anyone would like to share their opinion of Sanya's absolutely brilliant social commentary with the owner of this site, they may like to send a note to admin@mmorpg.com
Oh yeah thats nice! nothing makes me happier than login into a mmo and laughin at this kind of jokes in the chat.
Some random rules from the RoC Miss Sanya should take a moment to read:
MMORPG.com is a site to discuss massively multiplayer online roleplay gaming. While users are encouraged and permitted to use our Off-Topic forum to discuss real life and non-MMORPG gaming, threads concerning sensitive subjects such as religion, politics, or ethics may be locked or deleted if determined out of hand by the MMORPG.com moderator staff.
Posting excessive negative comments or baiting others to respond in a negative manner is considered trolling on the MMORPG.com forums.
Good article.
I7@4ghz, 5970@ 1 ghz/5ghz, water cooled||Former setups Byggblogg||Byggblogg 2|| Msi Wind u100
reading over most of the posts i thought it was a general racists/homophobes/bigots in chat groups, but it comes across that it is much more emotionally rooted.
People use the Nword to ilicit a responce that responce may be position or negative, however they feed on the negative more than the positive. Likewise using the words gay or rape or so forth. Like a litteral vampire they crave the negativity they generate.
And so we end up with the situation where someone who truely might feel offence from a word gives these people a negative responce. which is why when the term "Nvidia is gay" was used people asked why are they happy and so forth, which was a positive responce people didnt find it offensive and so it was rendered null in the terms of the chat group, and so people moved on. However the Nword triggered such a negative outcry that it succeeded in what it planned on doing. If people did the same to the Nword as they did to the gay word it wouldnt be such an issue. It would had shown a maturity we dont normally see from games.
I think now that if someone responded to me "hey nword whats up" i may be more inclined to accept it in the term it is used, not as an offensive term aimed at the black comunity but instead used as the rappers and pop idols use it as a term of endearment, im sure some will find it offensive but i hope those that understand this would accept that the person using it is either, 1 black or 2 ignorant of the terminoloy. Likewise using the word gay in the same concept.
I never think personal attacks on other people or people quoting massive blocks of text should the poster should sit back and consider "is that person attacking me with a knife and i have to defend myself with a shotgun". no they are typing on a forum from the otherside of the planet (possibly) and ill never actually meet them so who cares what they type.
I think life is full of choices and you can either make the choice to fuel fires or you can just accept that some people have different views than others, we arnt all the same and we have all grown up in different circumstances and even different countries / cultures. i would never dream of aproaching a black dude and saying "whats up nword" (i cant even type it im that indoctrinated) i just couldnt see me doing it even if i knew them and they said it was alright i still wouldnt.
Like wise someone who has grown up in a comunity where its normal would see my responce as probbly bizare and strange. Lets all remember we are humans and the internet has provided us to meet and greet with cultures and people from all over the globe.
We dont all think the same.
Words are purely, completely, and utterly subjective. Meaning is interpreted by the receiver, and is affected by social context and expected intent. Basically, words mean whatever the listener/reader believes they mean.
The astute transmitter learns to navigate expected context and subjective interpretation, making sure that their intended message is as close as possible to the interpreted one.
The idiotic transmitter will assume that their form of communication, with its purely subjective qualities, is best and/or that it should be tolerated merely because they're using it. There's nothing that says subjective interpretations must be equally treated, and they often aren't.
Humans are finicky and often cowardly beings. The younger, in general, the more cowardly. Anonymity gives them false courage, but lock them in a room with the people they have issues with, and suddenly their vim and vigor disappear in favor of excuses and accusations. It becomes dangerous if it persists into old age, where ignorance of the subjectivity of interpretation leads to miscommunication or laziness.
Is language evolving? Yes. However, acceptable language is determined by the majority power (quite a lot like most other things), and oddly enough - just because you have the right to free speech, doesn't mean you won't get severely punished for it if it pisses off those in power. Is it unfair? Well, that assumes fairness is obtainable. It's not. History has always been written by the victors, and those in power will always make the rules. Hierarchies have always existed, and will always exist.
So, in relation to language - it just depends where you are and who you're dealing with. As I said before, anonymity (and lack of immediate recourse) makes for a lot of idiots in MMOs who feel like it's fine saying whatever they want. Practically speaking, they are fine - if there's no one to punish them, then habits will not change. However, another danger of the practice is that once something becomes a habit, it leaks into other areas of your life subconsciously. I guarantee you, you will never be hired for a 6-figure salary if you ever use the word "Gay" or "N*****." It won't happen. You'll be stuck at McDonald's bitching about the cost of gas. Try using either one on a grad-school application; same thing will happen. You'll be put in the "Rejected" pile so quickly they won't have time to look at your credentials (unless, of course, it's a constructive abstract dealing with the flamboyancy of either term in an education light - but that's a different context). Most people know this. When it matters, when your livelihood depends on you not being a jerk, most people will opt for the easiest route to their goal.
Those that row against the flow, and have been successful doing so, have done so in an extremely calculated manner so as to talk in the language of the majority power while also introducing new ideas. Those are the smart people.
Others are monumental idiots.
Yes, I am an English Major.
Exactly right.
PIRATESS
[Matriarch of Shadow of Apophis]
Having read most of what is posted on mmorpg for a few years, I have to say that your collum on the industrys inner workings is the best of a reasonably good bunch. Mmorpg should sell another ad and give you a raise.
I could sware that this artical was writtin to incite flaming.
Good job!
"When you say someone who is physically weak “throws like a girl,” that you got a good bargain by “Jewing the seller down,” and that something contemptible is “gay,” your speech reflects at best the result of a sick, bigoted culture. At worst your speech is saying you are sick and bigoted."
Is this a joke? If I want to say "something is 'retarded' or 'gay'" in the privacy of my own home or with people I know and won't take offense to it, I will. I'm smart enough to have something called tact. You trying to completely eradicate such sayings that YOU deem to be offensive and that are not "politically correct" is, to phrase is like you, naive at best and dillusional at worst. It's laughable that you even consider someone saying "you throw like a girl" to be sick and bigoted...Whatever, no use in trying to persuade you, you're just an ignorant girl who throws like a gay retarded jew. < how's that for you! can't wait to be banned because im sick and bigoted...lol
According to her profile, she's 11 years old; you guys were all just trolled by an 11 year old.
Oh, sorry for derailing, let me get back on topic: You gay retarded fags were all just mentally raped by an 11 year old.
/sarcasm
This is a sequence of characters intended to produce some profound mental effect, but it has failed.
This! Egamst3k has it exact. I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore. Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority. And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends. However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be. So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others. This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.
This! Egamst3k has it exact. I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore. Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority. And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends. However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be. So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others. This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.
Yes, it's called tact. Nobody should go out of their way to offend somebody or say things that they know will piss people off but the reality is you can't stop that from happening, short of killing them or putting them in prison. That being said, in terms of an MMO community since that's what we're talking about here. If someone breaches the ToS then ban them because they breached the terms of service, don't try to push on them your moral beliefs because it's not your place. Now when talking about real life, take things on a case by case basis. Sometimes people are simply kidding around. Should we burn all the movies and books that have used "language" in a non politically correct way even if they're simply kidding around? If not then I don't think we should go about eliminating it from real life.
So yes, people should ideally be tactful and yes people should be allowed to kid around as well. Eliminating freedom of speech is a heavy price to pay for not offending some people.
Edit: I don't think she was trying to say that in order to please the majority we should act with manners while in public chat for instance (although this is probably not a bad idea). To me, she seemed to have some deep personal problems with people who use this "politically incorrect" language AT ALL. As in, no matter where you say it. Her point was that she was surprised to see people defending what in her mind was the right way to act and what to say in an MMO community or for that matter online community. It's exactly that though, in her mind. The issue here is if you disagree with her you'd surely get a large cup of haterade shoved down your throat. She seems to think her point of view should be held by everyone in society and we should all adopt the politically correct mindset and act like robots in order to wash away the influence of a "bigoted" society. Only problem is a) that would be boring and b) it's never gonna happen! It's human nature and the anonymity of the internet just brings out the worst in us. Human nature hasn't changed since, well, forever, so it's not going to change anytime soon
This! Egamst3k has it exact. I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore. Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority. And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends. However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be. So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others. This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.
Wait.....<blinks>.....you are proposing a conformity to the masses even though some would strongly disagree with the masses???? If people always rolled over and did this we wouldn't have ended slavery when we did (if ever..who knows). How very seriously IRONIC.
PIRATE LORDS
Ugh, these posts are getting entirely too long to read.
To the guy that commented about "white priveledge." You sir, have an outdated perspective.
I'm sure in some backwards corner of the USA you can chop off your mullet and go into a bank and get a loan before a black guy does.
In reality though, some poor white guy with a mullet freshly shaven and no/poor credit is not going to get a loan period. Neither will a black guy with the same financial situation. However, if said black guy has a job and credit, he will get the loan where as the trailer trash with no credit won't.
Guess what...banks are out to make money. If you have the credit, you get the loan, if you don't, you won't. Doesn't matter where you come from or what color your skin is, it matters what Experion says about your ability to pay your bills.
I'm so sick of people trying these tired arguments. White priveledge my ass.
Wow. I haven't gotten so frustrated reading an article in quite a while. Read on and I'll explain why it got me riled up.
Here's the deal: I'll tell you what's truly ignorant. Saying that someone is scum because they use the word "gay" in conversation is what's ignorant. This faux morality is really starting to get old. The PC crowd has been doing the same thing for 40 years: They don't believe in God and don't have any REAL moral code, but they try to create their own relativistic, humanistic morality with butt-kissing platitudes to supposedly under-represented minorities. If you're really that concerned with being nice and fair, then let's see the PC love spread all around. Let's see Sanya or any other PC enthusiast get up in arms about someone using terms like redneck or hillbilly. It simply isn't going to happen. Why? Because they're white, religious, and conservative.
Also, I'm getting tired of gays being placed in the same conversation as african-americans, jews, and so on. Frankly, it's an insult to these latter groups who have been wronged throughout history for something they have no control over (their ethnicity) with what is, as far as we know, a mere choice. Yeah, yeah, I hear it coming now. "Omg, being gay is not a choice." Well, all I know is that a black person didn't make himself black, but if I go out and have sex with another guy, then I have succeeded in making myself gay. I may have a genetic makeup that predisposes me to being a murderer, but that doesn't mean I was born a murderer.
The bottom line is simple: Worry about how a word or term will affect the actual people you're referring to, not how it will affect Mr. or Ms. Self-Righteous. Look, I love black people, asians, women, the mentally challenged, and every other "under-represented minority," and I would personally never shout out the n-word in real life or in a chat on a game, but to say that someone is scum if they do is simply taking things too far. Furthermore, to suggest that the n-word and gay are equally offensive is outrageous.
But...but....Sanya linked a .pdf titled "White Privilege" from the 1980's which shows how it's so current and applicable. How could Mr. mullet be wrong when he is only affirming what the glorious Sanya says?
I mean, surely Sanya wouldn't lie or misrepresent things to support her claims, would she? Surely not.....
Hey, I never said I agreed with Sanya on this article, but I'm probably more of a realist and less of a politically correct idealist than many here.
I agree with pretty much everything you've said Zorvan, except I think everyone is being a bit harsh on Sanya. It was an OPINION piece of fluff, and hell, it has generated about 14 pages of forum posts now. I don't think she meant to bait and troll anyone, I just don't think she appreciated how many people would vehemently disagree with her.
It's a sign of the times. People are tired of being sheep. Tired of being told what's ok to say and not to say, tired of being told they are wrong and should apologize for things that their great great great grandfathers may or may not have done.
Me...I'm floating around in the middle somewhere, My father descended from irish immigrants, my mother is an Indian woman from the west indies. I have lived the worst of both ends of the spectrum, never quite fitting in either, and I've definitely seen the polar shift from the minorities being downtrodden to the majority being crucified simply for being the majority.
On either end it's ridiculous, and I blame most of it on the apologist "politically correct" climate that has been nurtured in this country. It is the motherload of knee jerk reaction, over compensating for things that have already happened. There was a point and time that many of the things going on today were needed, perhaps, but that time is past, as the pendulum is swinging the other way now and doing more damage than it is repairing.
As far as the actual topic of this thread, as derailed as it is...I could care less what people say in a chat. I can always block them.
But from a CS point of view, and on the dev side as opposed to the player side, I can see the side Sanya presents also, though I don't agree with her entirely.
Prejudice is an ugly thing, most of us are guilty of it. Some people are blatantly prejudiced, but many of the worst cloak their discrimination beneath a false veil of rightous anger....which is the worst. They don't even have the decency to admit their own discriminations to themselves, let alone anyone else.
Yes.
"There are two great powers, and they've been fighting since time began. Every advance in human life, every scrap of knowledge and wisdom and decency we have has been torn by one side from the teeth of the other. Every little increase in human freedom has been fought over ferociously between those who want us to know more and be wiser and stronger, and those who want us to obey and be humble and submit."
John Parry, to his son Will; "The Subtle Knife," by Phillip Pullman
I think she is right. I base this on the fact that any 8 year old can say what he wants to and get away with it on the internet. The anonymity of the internet turns everyone into a tuff guy who's opinion is never wrong. I played World of Warcraft for 4ish years and almost every time I left it was because the community was the equivalent of a bunch of kids who were bullied in highschool seeking revenge on every person that was in thier path.
I say nigger and other racist comments but I don't say it when someone around me could get offended. I keep it in the closesness of my own friends. I'm not out to hurt anyone's feelings and I would hope that others act and feel the same way but it just isn't true. When you play video games with others, especially the amount of people in WoW, you will get mixed feelings on varying subjects. Some of those subjects may offend someone and they feel the need to speak up about it to the original player who started the discussion or mentioned said heated topic. Generally (please note i said generally and not all the time) the person who offended the other person gets offended that someone was offended by what he/she said and will then argue and do everything in his/her power to discredit the other person and make them look stupid.
The bad part about this and the internet is the anonymity. Anonymity empowers the 115 lb nerd who could never stand up for himself in highschool to slander-fuck someone in open public. It generally has no consequences and is usually provoked by the rest of the community with their snide remarks. My basic theory is that these people who act out in video games and act as if they don't care about other people's feelings are the ones who were treated poorly in highschool, have bad relationships with their parents, feel misunderstood by their peers, or generally just don't care about hurting other peoples feelings. The fact is that this sort of maturity...or lack there of is sad.
I, personally, blame parents today for the way their kids act. I know that these people aren't all kids but a good marjority of them are. Using a video game as a babysitter is unacceptable and I think parents should step up be an actual parent. They need to know what their kid is doing and saying when they are online.
Punishments should be more harsh than they are from video game CSRs and GMs. The fact that you can go on most video games today and cuss someone out for no apparent reason and only end up with a 24 hour suspension if the other person is lucky is quite shameful. I think if CSRs and GMs would step up and out right ban these people that it would get the point accross. People will be upset and talk bad and hate you on the forums but most people will praise you for actually doing your job and keeping the peace.
I also propose that a log be kept for one week of the chat sessions that people have on MMO's. I think that this should be in the parental features that most MMO's provide today with their games. It would be held for one week and then several days after that week and then ultimately deleted. It would highlight swear words and any similarities such as "phuck" or "$hit" so that the parents can see how their child acts while online. It can also provide detailed information about tickets that were opened against them for certain behaviours. I believe this would alleviate some of the stress that can be found in many MMOs today.
First and foremost we are playing a game. It should be enjoyable, but there is always someone who wants to ruin it for someone else. Anonymity promotes conflict. I do believe in the /ignore features and I also believe in the chat filters but the fact that those are provided in-game does not give someone a license to verbal-fuck me in the A. Most of the people who act this way do not act the same way out on the street. If you take away the anonymity and help provide parent's a way to see what their child or teen is doing then I believe you will be one step further to nurturing a great gaming community that people want to be a part of.
If you made it this far I commend you on reading the whole thing and look forward to your comments on my thoughts.
-Thafireball
After reading this whole thread I am sure more than ever that US citizens should be more concerned about their general racism towards non-US population than the one they show towards their own. It also serves very well as an insight into the problems of the US education.
Ignorance can be found ANYWHERE on the planet, not just the US. If I might add, that was a pretty ignorant statement. I have lived in many countries and seen many different types of "hate", it is NOT exclusive to the US. You failed. So many countries have stupid things to say about Americans, jokes, remarks, whatever...It's global.
Everyone needs to be aware, and the sooner we stop looking at the colour of one's skin, or how much wealth someone has, or what disability they have to live with, or even what sex they sleep with, the sooner "racism" will cease to exist.
The truth of the matter is, how we let words affect us. That is what it boils down to. If you let something upset you, only then, does it have power over you. I for one, will not let a mere word "victimize" me.
Now I understand that sometimes words can lead to more, it can breed hate, and spread stupidity. But to be honest, this is something that has to be stopped at it's roots.
In the HOME. Not in a game.....
PIRATESS
[Matriarch of Shadow of Apophis]
And back to the front page we go.
This! Egamst3k has it exact. I believe that is the point that Sanya is trying to make in the article that everybody seems to be trying to ignore. Take the article from a different perspective of somebody in the Customer Service position and it does make sense that you have to please the majority. And seeing that some words, even if they have evolved in meaning (somebody mentioned gay in an earlier post as changed in meaning...it hasn't really) CAN be acceptable in your groups/circle of friends. However, in the majority of the population, in public, it might not be. So the best thing people can do, which is what I believe Sanya to be aiming for in this article, is that while you can talk in /whisper, /group, ventrilo or teamspeak in any manner you wish with your friends and guildmates, you should have a publicly civil tongue when you are in the presence of others. This way you can't really offend them, or if you did not purposefully using words that are easily able to use in offensive; and you show a more intelligent side to yourself, because the person speaking like "yo n*gga, i gots me that new item so imma wreck sh*t now" isn't going to sound the brightest person in the world.
I'm pretty sure most feel that way. My problem is trying to say a person using a flagrant, bigoted term somehow equates to someone using a catchphrase that has become quite common amongst some without any inent of those using it directed at any particualr group of people and saying both parties have the same intentions, hatred, and vile opinion of fellow human beings. That doesn't mean myself or some others think saying those types of things are watercooler chat or used anywhere and everywhere without thinking of how your words will affect others. At the very least how it would affect others opinions of yourself.
However, trying to say they're both the same and come from some deepseated hatred towards others is ridiculous and rather asinine.
...and the moment you start doing crap like stating those types of comments or posting a link to a White Privilidge.pdf it moves beyond a CSR perspective on chat in mmos and moves into an entirely different area. Which is fine, I don't see anything wrong with the discussion but lets be realistic there's more to this article than just "think before you type/talk because your words can hurt or be misintrepreted". It would have been nice if that was all there was to it but it was made rather apparent by the writer that it wasn't.
1. For god's sake mmo gamers, enough with the analogies. They're unnecessary and your comparisons are terrible, dissimilar, and illogical.
2. To posters feeling the need to state how f2p really isn't f2p: Players understand the concept. You aren't privy to some secret the rest are missing. You're embarrassing yourself.
3. Yes, Cpt. Obvious, we're not industry experts. Now run along and let the big people use the forums for their purpose.
Really great stuff Sanya,
I love articles of this type. When discussions like this come up I'm reminded of
what a new social frontier 'cyberspace' continues to be.
The crux of these problems with 'freedom of self expression' is that the "freedom' comes with consequences, always.
My favorite line in the article is,
"Anonymous jerks sitting alone have to turn to other anonymous jerks sitting alone for their social behavior modification."
I've rarely seen the concept of social modelling put so well.
In the end it is not the police or GMs/CSRs that catalyze change in society, it is the society itself.
Excellent work on this one, and your whole "Underbelly" series.
WesCrag
edit: Thnx Zorvan for catching my mistake, and apologies to Sanya whom I originally identified as Dana.