Nowadays lack of content is labeled and sold as sandbox. Enjoy your new game!
True to an extent but I think there are still those of us who aren't fooled by the DF of the world or the rabid fanboys of these types of games who swear this is what a sandox is. There is nothing wrong with having actual gameplay content in a game as long as the tools exist to also exist in this open world but until one of the themepark games on the market takes steps to make sure that people are aware and active in that play style we will be stuck with companies like AV who try to decieve us into thinking these glorified chat rooms are sandbox.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by Wharg0ul
Originally posted by raystantz
Originally posted by Wharg0ul
I dunno, I guess I just understand the concept of building a world without artificial mechanics or limitations, and dumping in a bunch of players to "live" there. I have my own problems with DF and especially AV, which is why I don't play anymore, but crying about lack of content is just silly to me. I mean, someone above me here even tried to claim that DF is no different than a Battlefield game, and I just have to fucking laugh at that. Battlefield doesn't have city building, and a static map that allows it's players to build an empire, with other players as units in a MMO-RTS style game. People just don't see the "big picture" most of the time with Darkfall....they are too worried about loot and grinding.
No, you missed the point.
EVE online is a great example of a game without much linear dev created content. But there IS structure, and the mechanics of the game allows for it.
Everything in DF is so counterintuitive, they've succeeded in making the grind worse.. since at least in games like WoW and LOTRO.. your doing fun quests, with likeable NPCs and in lively and vividly built landscapes. DF looks like an emo kid took a shit, and decided to keep it as a pet. You folks who say "you people only care about grinding and loot"...
well, at least I get something in return for my grinding. There are plenty of games with city building, and player housing.. this is nothing new. It certainly doesn't make up for the whole game being like it is. The ideas behind darkfall are good, but the 100% sandbox game is obsolete to all but a very small group. Those people are playing darkfall..
I didn't miss the point at all. Notice that I didn't compare DF to other MMOs?? That's the big fucking mistake that everyone keeps making.
You wanna play WoW? Go play it. EVE, L2, whatever...go play them. We get it, you don't like Darkfall, but not because it's Darkfall...you don't like it because it's NOT one of the other games you claim are so great.
You like quests. Cool. Personally I'll probably puke if I have to do another goddamn quest grind. I'm sick of quests, and levels, and classes, and gear grinding.
And there's a huge community just waiting for a company to pull off a GOOD sandbox game. Darkfall is NOT that game...DF is a PVP game focusing on clan warfare with some sandbox elements. It's not the second coming of UO, or Pre-CU SWG.
DF is a virtual world set in a barbaric time, with as few artificial mechanics in place as possible. A lot of people just can't seem to get that simple truth through their heads. They're looking for "game mechanics", and completely fucking missing the point of what the game is supposed to be. They rant and rave about what thegame isn't, without even understand what it IS.
Sadly, AV and Tasos are money-grubbing fucks, and as a result what could have been a good MMORPG some day will probably end up dying a pathetic death in the not-so-distant future.
I played UO at length, I know what sandbox games are and what they are built upon. Which is player driven content. And back in 1997 when the MMO world was new and exciting, I trusted my fellow players to actually be smarter than a rock, and come up with inventive ways to play.
I remember having guild meetings complete with guild salutes and guild marches, and meeting in one of the many player created structures, and traversing through the undiscovered lands of Brittania, and having actual "enemies" and "alliances" that weren't just based on who has the stupidest guild name. The players have destroyed this kind of play.. not the games. I can do anything I used to do in UO in ANY game on the market... they all work essentially the same. You create a character, and you explore and socialize. But, back then.. things were different, because it was fresh and new. People didn't get so worked up about "grinds" and "loot". It was a "world" not a game....
Thats what has changed. The players. And therefore so did the games. Now, you've got companies attempting to fill a void where UO left off. The problem is, the old schoolers like us.. who were playing MMO's then, are outnumbered by the new schoolers, who don't just stick with the newschool games like WoW or whatever. They pollute all games, and in 1997 when all mmo's were niche to the mmo crowd.. now the mmo crowd is EVERYBODY.. so all the things we never saw back in 1997 are showing through, in every game regardless of the mechanics.
So unless an MMO company decides to hand pick its players from only old schoolers.. expect every game to have those people playing them and further destroying what all of us remembered about the games from that time. Expect people to grind and complain, expect them to macro afk, and expect them to figure out any way they can to "game" the system instead of immersing themselves into the world.
Alot of us forget that MMO's were derived quite a bit from MUDS before them, and pen and paper before those. Whats the difference in those and MMO's of today? They were "roleplaying". Today, if you play <insert game here> you won't run into Edward the Knight of Rivendell, it will be "Chris" the 15 year old kid who is standing afk shooting mana missles at a wall, while he's on his xbox 360 playing halo 3.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Nowadays lack of content is labeled and sold as sandbox. Enjoy your new game!
This is the jist of it.
People think that sandbox = empty world with no structured content. They seem to trust their fellow players enough to think they will take the time to think of inventive ways to play the game that will replace the fact that there is no dev created content.
Even in the old days, "sandboxes" had some kind of content, even if it wasn't dev created like themepark mmo's, there were events, and things that were fun to do in place of themepark style content. Now they just think "Here's a big 3d chat room it took us 10 years to make.. good luck figuring out what you want to do in it".
Second Life with a fantasy skin on it.. IMO.
Welcome to PvP centric Sandbox games. Everything leads back to PvP as it should. Hell, even houses are tied directly to a PvP aspect of the game by requiring people to pay a tax on their house to fule the village system's reward mechanism. There is nothing wrong with this. However, what you and everyone else fails to notice is the fact that DFO has DUNGEONS, OVER 250 QUEST, AND MOBS. The PvE is there, just no one does it becuase the player base only cares about PvP.
Dungeons which essentially are just another mob spawns and 250 quests divided between 6 races. Don't forget that quests are three types: kill x mobs, bring x of y and kill x mob in y time.
While I enjoyed my first 4 days in DF... Killing goblins for every single quest I did got old pretty fast. Having others take my hard earned loot just because of how clunky the interface is, and the that they just stand there waiting for someone to kill something so they can steal its loot, was also quite annoying. The people who were constantly running around me trying to force me to hit them so they could then gank me with no penalty, was annoying. There is no "structure" in DF, and even in a game like UO.. there was structure. DF is literally just a cesspool for griefers. So, in my personal opinion. These games still need structure and direction. They still need developer designed content to give you a reason to be there and play on a daily basis. There are just not enough of the "creative" types anymore that are willing to actually provide the content themselves. Its just a matter of gank or be ganked. And, this kind of "play" can be fun... but not for a very long span of time. It would really make alot more sense to actually play a first person shooter if thats what your after.
There is nothinng wrong with liking a theme part type game more, one that gives more direction with icons over quest givers heads and such. DFO isn't like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have content, only that you didn't find it. I'm sorry to hear of your dissapointment, but it sounds more like a game style preference than a criticism of the game. Sort of like "If DFO was more like X game, I'd llike it more". It's not like any game I've ever played, but I've only been playing games for five years. I loved WoW, but this game is so different and open with so much happening in politics, pvp, gvg, alliance vs alliance, citry vs city, etc. etc. It just sounds like it's not for you.
Other
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by otheron3
Originally posted by raystantz
From a new player perspective....
While I enjoyed my first 4 days in DF... Killing goblins for every single quest I did got old pretty fast. Having others take my hard earned loot just because of how clunky the interface is, and the that they just stand there waiting for someone to kill something so they can steal its loot, was also quite annoying. The people who were constantly running around me trying to force me to hit them so they could then gank me with no penalty, was annoying. There is no "structure" in DF, and even in a game like UO.. there was structure. DF is literally just a cesspool for griefers. So, in my personal opinion. These games still need structure and direction. They still need developer designed content to give you a reason to be there and play on a daily basis. There are just not enough of the "creative" types anymore that are willing to actually provide the content themselves. Its just a matter of gank or be ganked. And, this kind of "play" can be fun... but not for a very long span of time. It would really make alot more sense to actually play a first person shooter if thats what your after.
There is nothinng wrong with liking a theme part type game more, one that gives more direction with icons over quest givers heads and such. DFO isn't like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have content, only that you didn't find it. I'm sorry to hear of your dissapointment, but it sounds more like a game style preference than a criticism of the game. Sort of like "If DFO was more like X game, I'd llike it more". It's not like any game I've ever played, but I've only been playing games for five years. I loved WoW, but this game is so different and open with so much happening in politics, pvp, gvg, alliance vs alliance, citry vs city, etc. etc. It just sounds like it's not for you.
Other
Games like this can work, when they are developed and fleshed out correctly, the concepts are cool for DF.. the implementation of them are whats sour. Its a griefers haven, and the rules of the game add to it.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
That was a pretty good write up and should provoke some interesting conversation beyond the typical "go back to WoW" retorts.
When looking at a game that claims to be sandbox, I often try to compare against SWG and EvE as this is where my experience came from. What are we if nothing but the product of our experiences right? So with that in mind, there is one simple question that defines a sandbox for me:
Can I be a viable player, and enjoy myself, with out participating in combat?
Now, don't get me wrong. I like PvP as much as the next guy, but, a sandbox is supposed to be an open world where you can do whatever, right? Therefore, I should be able to be a crafter, merchant, politician, etc. The moment you label something an "<Adjective> Sandbox", it has stopped being a sandbox and has become an "<Adjective> Game". Something is either a sandbox with freedom or it is a game oriented to a certain goal (PvP, economy simulation, etc).
I agree with what you've said about a hybrid approach and, again, I flashback to SWG. I believe this game had a hybrid approach. I mean, they even had questlines referred to as "themeparks". Aside from that though, there was significant motivation based on existing lore and dev introduced conflict, to keep PvP going. Prime examples would be the "Live Events" where NPC Imperials may invade Theed as an example. Rebels would get notice on their ship comms or word would spread via Player Associations and friends lists. Ultimately, you would see large scale PvP in a (then) major city. For all the things that have gone wrong in SWG, I thlnk the live events stand out as a way devs can motivate lore based conflicts.
Don't get me wrong though; the introduction of quests and dev involvement do not cause the game to stop being a sandbox. The underlying mechanics of the game still facilitate whatever play style I choose and the features of the game provide more options for those varying play styles.
Aside from living in the past for a moment, I think these ideas can find modern application. I think one of DF's more under-utilized assets is it's lore. Lore is just one of the tools that helps provide a player, especially a new one, with a springboard with which they can dive into the turbulent waters of DF's world. If nothing else, it provides a point of reference to get someone's imagination moving and get them through those first few days of getting oriented.
bear in mind..purely my opinions...your mileage may vary..
edit: late night typos and incomplete thoughts....
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers. Do something wrong, no one forgets" -from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
Nowadays lack of content is labeled and sold as sandbox. Enjoy your new game!
This is the jist of it.
People think that sandbox = empty world with no structured content. They seem to trust their fellow players enough to think they will take the time to think of inventive ways to play the game that will replace the fact that there is no dev created content.
Even in the old days, "sandboxes" had some kind of content, even if it wasn't dev created like themepark mmo's, there were events, and things that were fun to do in place of themepark style content. Now they just think "Here's a big 3d chat room it took us 10 years to make.. good luck figuring out what you want to do in it".
Second Life with a fantasy skin on it.. IMO.
Welcome to PvP centric Sandbox games. Everything leads back to PvP as it should. Hell, even houses are tied directly to a PvP aspect of the game by requiring people to pay a tax on their house to fule the village system's reward mechanism. There is nothing wrong with this. However, what you and everyone else fails to notice is the fact that DFO has DUNGEONS, OVER 250 QUEST, AND MOBS. The PvE is there, just no one does it becuase the player base only cares about PvP.
Dungeons which essentially are just another mob spawns and 250 quests divided between 6 races. Don't forget that quests are three types: kill x mobs, bring x of y and kill x mob in y time.
That's not the content we need.
250 random unrealated kill X quests is hardly a "Killer PvE" experience like was promised..........
It amazes me people always asking wheres the content in a sandbox game. What is content? Is content a linear quest system with easy going rewards and a flat learning curve?
Answer the question, what is content?
Content in a sandbox is player made through politics and knowing the fact that your actions ACTUALLY have an impact on the games story line. Whereas a casual game is the exact opposite.
Some people will never get it through their head. The funnest time ive ever had in a game was a game called face of mankind. No "" Content "" whatsoever. Just player made fun and despair with actual emotion. In a game where there is a risk reward system, you feel truly pissed off, and you feel truly enlightended when things happen. And knowing that what you do will have an impact on the games direction. A game where the developer lets the player decide where the game goes. Some people, will never understand this concept because they have a completely different mindset when they enter this type of game, and are expecting a different rendition of the same type of linear MMO they enjoy. Or mabye they arent creative enough to imagine the endless scenarios possible.
Im sorry but when people say a "sandbox" is another term for a game with no content, your in a different playing field than the people that understand and enjoy this type of game.
Yay for content! Quests! Pve raids! Instances! Theres nothing else out there! /end sarcasm
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by Xemous
lol It amazes me people always asking wheres the content in a sandbox game. What is content? Is content a linear quest system with easy going rewards and a flat learning curve? Answer the question, what is content? Content in a sandbox is player made through politics and knowing the fact that your actions ACTUALLY have an impact on the games story line. Whereas a casual game is the exact opposite. Some people will never get it through their head. The funnest time ive ever had in a game was a game called face of mankind. No "" Content "" whatsoever. Just player made fun and despair with actual emotion. In a game where there is a risk reward system, you feel truly pissed off, and you feel truly enlightended when things happen. And knowing that what you do will have an impact on the games direction. A game where the developer lets the player decide where the game goes. Some people, will never understand this concept because they have a completely different mindset when they enter this type of game, and are expecting a different rendition of the same type of linear MMO they enjoy. Or mabye they arent creative enough to imagine the endless scenarios possible.
Im sorry but when people say a "sandbox" is another term for a game with no content, your in a different playing field than the people that understand and enjoy this type of game. Yay for content! Quests! Pve raids! Instances! Theres nothing else out there! /end sarcasm
No, I understand full well that a "sandbox" game is player driven.
But, DF as is the topic of this discussion is "PVP driven". The mechanics of the game facilitate it, and it is the "means" to an end that other games use PVE or a mixture of PVP/PVE for. Sandbox games are "focused" on player driven content.. content that is created and imagined by the players. What I was trying to get across, is that in the year 2009.. people don't know how to do that anymore, and don't care to. I don't need a world filled with nothing but trees and a few buildings for it to be "sandbox". I can create the same content in WoW, EQ2, EVE, LOTRO, VANGUARD...
Its just the fact that people won't, and even in a game where its supposed to be sandbox they don't. Maxing skills by afk macroing is not "immersive" or "player driven".. its the equivalent to running the same instance over and over to get some phat loots. Its because people don't know how to play like that anymore, and you can make any kind of game you want and slap any silly "title" on it you want.. it won't change the way the players play in 2009 and thus a "sandbox" game will wind up being a graphical chat room and nothing more.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
This game is about forming clans and declare war on on other clans, and take their stuff. I remember the devs posted on the old website about how harsh the game can be for soloers. So there should be no surprise. And as far as content goes, the content is the players, clans, sieges. Some people needs a reality check and stop the QQ. Whoever was expecting carebear solo PvE a la WoW please go to the official website and read the FAQs.
I dunno, I guess I just understand the concept of building a world without artificial mechanics or limitations, and dumping in a bunch of players to "live" there. I have my own problems with DF and especially AV, which is why I don't play anymore, but crying about lack of content is just silly to me. I mean, someone above me here even tried to claim that DF is no different than a Battlefield game, and I just have to fucking laugh at that. Battlefield doesn't have city building, and a static map that allows it's players to build an empire, with other players as units in a MMO-RTS style game. People just don't see the "big picture" most of the time with Darkfall....they are too worried about loot and grinding.
No, you missed the point.
EVE online is a great example of a game without much linear dev created content. But there IS structure, and the mechanics of the game allows for it.
Everything in DF is so counterintuitive, they've succeeded in making the grind worse.. since at least in games like WoW and LOTRO.. your doing fun quests, with likeable NPCs and in lively and vividly built landscapes. DF looks like an emo kid took a shit, and decided to keep it as a pet. You folks who say "you people only care about grinding and loot"...
well, at least I get something in return for my grinding. There are plenty of games with city building, and player housing.. this is nothing new. It certainly doesn't make up for the whole game being like it is. The ideas behind darkfall are good, but the 100% sandbox game is obsolete to all but a very small group. Those people are playing darkfall..
I didn't miss the point at all. Notice that I didn't compare DF to other MMOs?? That's the big fucking mistake that everyone keeps making.
You wanna play WoW? Go play it. EVE, L2, whatever...go play them. We get it, you don't like Darkfall, but not because it's Darkfall...you don't like it because it's NOT one of the other games you claim are so great.
You like quests. Cool. Personally I'll probably puke if I have to do another goddamn quest grind. I'm sick of quests, and levels, and classes, and gear grinding.
And there's a huge community just waiting for a company to pull off a GOOD sandbox game. Darkfall is NOT that game...DF is a PVP game focusing on clan warfare with some sandbox elements. It's not the second coming of UO, or Pre-CU SWG.
DF is a virtual world set in a barbaric time, with as few artificial mechanics in place as possible. A lot of people just can't seem to get that simple truth through their heads. They're looking for "game mechanics", and completely fucking missing the point of what the game is supposed to be. They rant and rave about what thegame isn't, without even understand what it IS.
Sadly, AV and Tasos are money-grubbing fucks, and as a result what could have been a good MMORPG some day will probably end up dying a pathetic death in the not-so-distant future.
I played UO at length, I know what sandbox games are and what they are built upon. Which is player driven content. And back in 1997 when the MMO world was new and exciting, I trusted my fellow players to actually be smarter than a rock, and come up with inventive ways to play.
I remember having guild meetings complete with guild salutes and guild marches, and meeting in one of the many player created structures, and traversing through the undiscovered lands of Brittania, and having actual "enemies" and "alliances" that weren't just based on who has the stupidest guild name. The players have destroyed this kind of play.. not the games. I can do anything I used to do in UO in ANY game on the market... they all work essentially the same. You create a character, and you explore and socialize. But, back then.. things were different, because it was fresh and new. People didn't get so worked up about "grinds" and "loot". It was a "world" not a game....
Thats what has changed. The players. And therefore so did the games. Now, you've got companies attempting to fill a void where UO left off. The problem is, the old schoolers like us.. who were playing MMO's then, are outnumbered by the new schoolers, who don't just stick with the newschool games like WoW or whatever. They pollute all games, and in 1997 when all mmo's were niche to the mmo crowd.. now the mmo crowd is EVERYBODY.. so all the things we never saw back in 1997 are showing through, in every game regardless of the mechanics.
So unless an MMO company decides to hand pick its players from only old schoolers.. expect every game to have those people playing them and further destroying what all of us remembered about the games from that time. Expect people to grind and complain, expect them to macro afk, and expect them to figure out any way they can to "game" the system instead of immersing themselves into the world.
Alot of us forget that MMO's were derived quite a bit from MUDS before them, and pen and paper before those. Whats the difference in those and MMO's of today? They were "roleplaying". Today, if you play <insert game here> you won't run into Edward the Knight of Rivendell, it will be "Chris" the 15 year old kid who is standing afk shooting mana missles at a wall, while he's on his xbox 360 playing halo 3.
Accurate statements there. I think a lot of people get over-nostalgic for the "golden" times of UO. Yes, there was full loot and FFA PVP, but there were a lot of basic mechanics that have been introduced to the MMO that didn't exist back then...i.e. no in-game chat.
But your point about MMOs being a niche is well made. There was only a handful of old-schoolers back then who played these games. And UO derived from the Ultima Series, a series in itself was a single player RPG with stories and characters to immerse yourself with. In all, I think Darkfall is an experiment in taking a few old-school mechanics (FFA PVP, Full Loot) and testing it on the new generation of MMO players. It fails to work like it did ten years ago because the UO ten years ago offered much more than those two features and undeniably, the player-base has changed. MMOs are no longer a niche and have been invaded by all the console twitched teens whose only experience with old DND is the movie that was released several years ago.
This game is about forming clans and declare war on on other clans, and take their stuff. I remember the devs posted on the old website about how harsh the game can be for soloers. So there should be no surprise. And as far as content goes, the content is the players, clans, sieges. Some people needs a reality check and stop the QQ. Whoever was expecting carebear solo PvE a la WoW please go to the official website and read the FAQs.
You're missing the point entirely. The OP, and I, coincidentally, are not WoW babies. It wasn't our first MMO. I've played MUDS back when I was younger, I played UO months after launch, so please don't tell me that when I approach an MMO I'm looking for the WoW-model.
I actually yearn for the complexities of the older RPGs (much like UO had). When EQ came along and moved the genre to first-person, I felt something was lost. It was new and exciting yet there was less, somehow. I digress.
I get what DF tried to achieve. What looked good on paper and web boards, sadly didn't manifest itself the way promised and what you have is a macroing zerg fest. Not a new immersive MMO.
lol It amazes me people always asking wheres the content in a sandbox game. What is content? Is content a linear quest system with easy going rewards and a flat learning curve? Answer the question, what is content? Content in a sandbox is player made through politics and knowing the fact that your actions ACTUALLY have an impact on the games story line. Whereas a casual game is the exact opposite. Some people will never get it through their head. The funnest time ive ever had in a game was a game called face of mankind. No "" Content "" whatsoever. Just player made fun and despair with actual emotion. In a game where there is a risk reward system, you feel truly pissed off, and you feel truly enlightended when things happen. And knowing that what you do will have an impact on the games direction. A game where the developer lets the player decide where the game goes. Some people, will never understand this concept because they have a completely different mindset when they enter this type of game, and are expecting a different rendition of the same type of linear MMO they enjoy. Or mabye they arent creative enough to imagine the endless scenarios possible.
Im sorry but when people say a "sandbox" is another term for a game with no content, your in a different playing field than the people that understand and enjoy this type of game. Yay for content! Quests! Pve raids! Instances! Theres nothing else out there! /end sarcasm
No, I understand full well that a "sandbox" game is player driven.
But, DF as is the topic of this discussion is "PVP driven". The mechanics of the game facilitate it, and it is the "means" to an end that other games use PVE or a mixture of PVP/PVE for. Sandbox games are "focused" on player driven content.. content that is created and imagined by the players. What I was trying to get across, is that in the year 2009.. people don't know how to do that anymore, and don't care to. I don't need a world filled with nothing but trees and a few buildings for it to be "sandbox". I can create the same content in WoW, EQ2, EVE, LOTRO, VANGUARD...
Its just the fact that people won't, and even in a game where its supposed to be sandbox they don't. Maxing skills by afk macroing is not "immersive" or "player driven".. its the equivalent to running the same instance over and over to get some phat loots. Its because people don't know how to play like that anymore, and you can make any kind of game you want and slap any silly "title" on it you want.. it won't change the way the players play in 2009 and thus a "sandbox" game will wind up being a graphical chat room and nothing more.
I wasnt refering to the OP just a post a few down, forgot to quote it.
Your saying now its 2009 and people dont have to create their own content, and dont care to. Yes this is true for alot of players. Thats why "niche" games cater to a small minority that DOES enjoy imagined content. Its great because in a sense its endless, i dont want linear boundaries. Even though i have thoughly enjoyed linear MMO's, i still get alot of enjoyment from player created content for my own reasons. And no you cant create the same clan politics in WoW and EQ2. Mabye to a very minor extent, but nothing like Darkfall or other related sandboxes. Some people just love being able to create content and have yourself and others shape it.
On your OP. Yes darkfall does have assholes, just like every game. Stepping stone MMO's brought in a larger and more immature (imo) crowd. And now youve just gotta deal with em. But if you get in a clan and alliance and meet some good buddies to do stuff with, its really fun and brings out the shine.
This game is about forming clans and declare war on on other clans, and take their stuff. I remember the devs posted on the old website about how harsh the game can be for soloers. So there should be no surprise. And as far as content goes, the content is the players, clans, sieges. Some people needs a reality check and stop the QQ. Whoever was expecting carebear solo PvE a la WoW please go to the official website and read the FAQs.
You're missing the point entirely. The OP, and I, coincidentally, are not WoW babies. It wasn't our first MMO. I've played MUDS back when I was younger, I played UO months after launch, so please don't tell me that when I approach an MMO I'm looking for the WoW-model.
I actually yearn for the complexities of the older RPGs (much like UO had). When EQ came along and moved the genre to first-person, I felt something was lost. It was new and exciting yet there was less, somehow. I digress.
I get what DF tried to achieve. What looked good on paper and web boards, sadly didn't manifest itself the way promised and what you have is a macroing zerg fest. Not a new immersive MMO.
If you tell me that there are not enough players and that players in-game are not interested in forming clans, then perhaps MMO devs should re-think what type of MMO they should develop. These days nobody cares about UO or old school MMO players. The features of the game were listed in the official website and they are very easy to understand. This is not UO. And, I was not quoting anybody when I posted. Many people over here QQ a lot about DF without even knowing what the game is about. I don't like DF by the way, but the game content and what it offers are very easy to see. Forget about the complexities of old school games unless you are still playing them. DF, MO and future MMOs will NEVER have the same "complexities" you want in MMOs. And as far as macros in DF goes, the devs addressed the issue, now you just cant throw spells in the air and have your skills increased that way. But I don't recommend you to wait for a miracle. Don't be surprised if the devs start to patch the game to make it more carebearish.
While I enjoyed my first 4 days in DF... Killing goblins for every single quest I did got old pretty fast. Having others take my hard earned loot just because of how clunky the interface is, and the that they just stand there waiting for someone to kill something so they can steal its loot, was also quite annoying. The people who were constantly running around me trying to force me to hit them so they could then gank me with no penalty, was annoying. There is no "structure" in DF, and even in a game like UO.. there was structure. DF is literally just a cesspool for griefers. So, in my personal opinion. These games still need structure and direction. They still need developer designed content to give you a reason to be there and play on a daily basis. There are just not enough of the "creative" types anymore that are willing to actually provide the content themselves. Its just a matter of gank or be ganked. And, this kind of "play" can be fun... but not for a very long span of time. It would really make alot more sense to actually play a first person shooter if thats what your after.
There is nothinng wrong with liking a theme part type game more, one that gives more direction with icons over quest givers heads and such. DFO isn't like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have content, only that you didn't find it. I'm sorry to hear of your dissapointment, but it sounds more like a game style preference than a criticism of the game. Sort of like "If DFO was more like X game, I'd llike it more". It's not like any game I've ever played, but I've only been playing games for five years. I loved WoW, but this game is so different and open with so much happening in politics, pvp, gvg, alliance vs alliance, citry vs city, etc. etc. It just sounds like it's not for you.
Other
Games like this can work, when they are developed and fleshed out correctly, the concepts are cool for DF.. the implementation of them are whats sour. Its a griefers haven, and the rules of the game add to it.
I highly respect your opinion after reading all your posts on this thread and understanding your game history. It is far more robust than mine. What I don't understand is why my experience is so much different from yours. I created an Elf when NA opened on the 13th, had a great time and found a good spot to level up my skills, get loot and the occasional racial enemy would show up for some pvp action. When the spots I enjoyed began becoming full of griefers, a few people I got to know while there invited me to join their guild. I looked them up on the in game guild info., reviewed the roster and noticed they had a holding. They explained most of them were Elf and they had a cool city south. They gave me vent info. and off I went on Vent to speak and get to know them better. All very mature older players; don't allow trash talking etc., so I joined. I don't have problems with griefers any more.
I'd like to ask you a question and would appreciate if you would think about it a while and answer honestly. Is it possible that it's not the game that has issues in design as you suggest, but your lack of will to take responsibility and do what the game allows to turn a bad situation in to a great one?
Thank you.
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
We aren't QQing. I knew what the features were when I bought the game. Yeah, alot of them are missing. And in 1997 some of the things people manipulate in the game probably wouldn't have even been an issue, because people just "played" the game. Now its so much about being at "MAX" and doing it the fastest.. I ran around the zones yesterday and over half the people I saw were running into a walll afk skilling up. Totally kills the immersion and "sandbox" feel for me. DF has the tools to create something good, but they have to actually listen to the playerbase instead of ignoring them.
All that DF amounts to is AV spent 9 years creating an engine, and spent a year throwing in the rest of the crap half assed. So, it doesn't work like it should, and todays Halo 3 gamers have already figured out how to "manipulate" it to give them the advantage instead of just playing the game as intended.
I actually fault the players more than the game. I'm old enough and mature enough to just "play" and won't be afk macroing or bloodwalling in order to compete. If I can't do it the old fashioned way, then I will find another game.
The bottom line is, you can put whatever mechanics you wish to put in a game. Its not new anymore, and all many people care about is being the best, in whatever means possible. They suck all the fun out of it for all the rest of us who grew up playing these games. WoW is partly to blame, because had it not been for that game.. the "niche" that was the mmo crowd.. may still exist today. But, we can't change the past... so, to alleviate some it. The least the game devs can do is construct the games better so that these players either get fed up and quit, or make things like afk macroing and hacking impossible to do or at least get away with..
If you ever wonder what kind of people have poisoned your beloved MMO niche... just log on to Halo 3 on any given night, and make sure you have your voice chat on.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
I report people afk macroing, ie: running in to walls, and I watch them get booted from the server. My father tells me the same exact thing happened in UO, but it was with players standing still and macroing sewing and stuff like that in their inventory. You seem like someone who can love this game, and not sure why you are allowing yoursefl to get stuck on what is truely trivial stuff in comparison to what the game offers.
with respect - Other
raystantzFinal Fantasy XI CorrespondentMemberUncommonPosts: 1,237
Originally posted by otheron3
Originally posted by raystantz
Originally posted by otheron3
Originally posted by raystantz
From a new player perspective....
While I enjoyed my first 4 days in DF... Killing goblins for every single quest I did got old pretty fast. Having others take my hard earned loot just because of how clunky the interface is, and the that they just stand there waiting for someone to kill something so they can steal its loot, was also quite annoying. The people who were constantly running around me trying to force me to hit them so they could then gank me with no penalty, was annoying. There is no "structure" in DF, and even in a game like UO.. there was structure. DF is literally just a cesspool for griefers. So, in my personal opinion. These games still need structure and direction. They still need developer designed content to give you a reason to be there and play on a daily basis. There are just not enough of the "creative" types anymore that are willing to actually provide the content themselves. Its just a matter of gank or be ganked. And, this kind of "play" can be fun... but not for a very long span of time. It would really make alot more sense to actually play a first person shooter if thats what your after.
There is nothinng wrong with liking a theme part type game more, one that gives more direction with icons over quest givers heads and such. DFO isn't like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have content, only that you didn't find it. I'm sorry to hear of your dissapointment, but it sounds more like a game style preference than a criticism of the game. Sort of like "If DFO was more like X game, I'd llike it more". It's not like any game I've ever played, but I've only been playing games for five years. I loved WoW, but this game is so different and open with so much happening in politics, pvp, gvg, alliance vs alliance, citry vs city, etc. etc. It just sounds like it's not for you.
Other
Games like this can work, when they are developed and fleshed out correctly, the concepts are cool for DF.. the implementation of them are whats sour. Its a griefers haven, and the rules of the game add to it.
I highly respect your opinion after reading all your posts on this thread and understanding your game history. It is far more robust than mine. What I don't understand is why my experience is so much different from yours. I created an Elf when NA opened on the 13th, had a great time and found a good spot to level up my skills, get loot and the occasional racial enemy would show up for some pvp action. When the spots I enjoyed began becoming full of griefers, a few people I got to know while there invited me to join their guild. I looked them up on the in game guild info., reviewed the roster and noticed they had a holding. They explained most of them were Elf and they had a cool city south. They gave me vent info. and off I went on Vent to speak and get to know them better. All very mature older players; don't allow trash talking etc., so I joined. I don't have problems with griefers any more.
I'd like to ask you a question and would appreciate if you would think about it a while and answer honestly. Is it possible that it's not the game that has issues in design as you suggest, but your lack of will to take responsibility and do what the game allows to turn a bad situation in to a great one?
Thank you.
Oh, I'm in a clan. They are all nice people, and all my age (I'm 28) or older. They've helped me quite a bit in game since starting. They even told me they'd show me their city when I was able to make the trek. This was on day 1.. and I was very excited about this type of stuff. Its the "golden years" type stuff we have been talking about.
The Problem is, that while there are nice people in every game. For every nice and friendly player who genuinely wants to make DF into a great game, I will pass by 10 people afk macroing. Some people can ignore this. But I can't. It kills the immersion factor. And to know that no matter how many goblins or other players I kill during my playtime. Those 10 people afk macroing will be the ones that destroy me later on, without actually having ever been at the pc while they were "skilling up". The ideas behind DF are great. And, even the way they've put it together would be great.. if this was 1997, before players knew what Halo 3, and what cheats and hacks to use to make sure they are better than everyone else. But its 2009, and these days it just doesn't work like it did then, and thats what alot of us old school players Thought we were going to get.. its not totally the games fault.. mostly this generation of players. The games ruleset and lack of certain restrictions.. and the devs unwillingness to do anything about is.. is why this game turns us off.
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Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
Originally posted by Moretrinkets ... These days nobody cares about UO or old school MMO players. ... Forget about the complexities of old school games unless you are still playing them. DF, MO and future MMOs will NEVER have the same "complexities" you want in MMOs.
Why? What do you know that I don't? Why isn't it possible to recreate an "old-style" MMO with all the new technology that we have today?
The market changed from the early days of the MMO. Why can't it change again? With more people interested in the genre, it becomes much more feasible to create a niche game to cater to specific needs. More people = more diversity in demand.
Lots of people care about old-school MMOs and their players. They are older people, with a more stable financial situation, money to invest in hardware if they so desire. They pull their weight today as they did in the past, but in a different way. It's a slice of the market that a smart and honest developer can certainly tap into.
Just to illuminate those who may be confused: Darkfall is NOT a "Sandbox". It is instead, a "Clanbox". The "content" of Darkfall is clans....the politics, the drama, the sieging, the alliances, and the way the battle lines are drawn day by day. Other than a few select, pure "red" players who only log in to kill n00bs at goblin camps, most solo players are going to have a hard time of it, and most "themepark" players simply won't understand. They think of "content" as quest chains, battlegrounds / arenas, and raid encounters. And you won't find any of that shit in Darkfall.
Id argue wow had guild politics, drama and allaince pre TBC and TBC on pvp servers, so dont start ur cap about guild politics and drama, yes they may be more exagerated in Darkfall, but wow had and still has some of this to this day on the pvp servers. Even for a so callled carebear noob shit game.
I don't know if anyone's picked up on this, but sorry sweetie, if you think that trying to be the first to unlock a new instance is 'guild politics' you are mistaken. I have a fair bit of experience in one of the most drama heavy games out there, EQ2, and even that doesn't have guild politics.
As far as I can tell, Darkfall and EVE are currently the only places to see real interplayer politics, including emergent gameplay techniques typical of so called 'sandbox' environments. And let's be clear, EVE is always gonna do it better.
Nowadays lack of content is labeled and sold as sandbox. Enjoy your new game!
This is the jist of it.
People think that sandbox = empty world with no structured content. They seem to trust their fellow players enough to think they will take the time to think of inventive ways to play the game that will replace the fact that there is no dev created content.
Even in the old days, "sandboxes" had some kind of content, even if it wasn't dev created like themepark mmo's, there were events, and things that were fun to do in place of themepark style content. Now they just think "Here's a big 3d chat room it took us 10 years to make.. good luck figuring out what you want to do in it".
Second Life with a fantasy skin on it.. IMO.
Welcome to PvP centric Sandbox games. Everything leads back to PvP as it should. Hell, even houses are tied directly to a PvP aspect of the game by requiring people to pay a tax on their house to fule the village system's reward mechanism. There is nothing wrong with this. However, what you and everyone else fails to notice is the fact that DFO has DUNGEONS, OVER 250 QUEST, AND MOBS. The PvE is there, just no one does it becuase the player base only cares about PvP.
No offense, X, I seldom agree with u on DF, but I do treasure your opinion.
I keep wondering and comparing DF to DAoC. In DAoC, we all know the PvE is "fluff". Every reason for playing to max, and after max is RvR. We do not compete much in our realm, I actually hand out free armor, even 99% quality armor to good players I see in the frontier. PvP in DAoC format is the centre of the game.
But there is so much activity, everyone is involved. People are nice, even the opposing sides were nice to each other, in the rare occasion of meeting on other forums (no official forum then, not ever). There is a feeling of a game, of variety, of fun, of esprit de corps, of solidarity, of meaning. Most valuable of all, a community that makes the game fun.
There is nothing in DF, but a bunch of foul mouth kids (witnessed by the way the extremist post here) and proclaim that the meaningless zergs are the best gaming experience ever. A community that makes the worst game even more intolerable.
We use to blame AV for being a crappy developer, we use to blame the fanbots for excessiveness that ruins the game, but now you raised another point even harder to explain. If all the PvEs are there, why are people not playing it. Even those who spend months in the game, grew tired and bailed, did not bother switch over to trying the PvEs. Either it is too bad comparing with the PvEs of other game, and thus not worth spending time on it, or something in the game hinders enjoyment of PvEing for its own sake (say ganking?). I do not know. The more I look at DF, the deeper I feel the issue hides inside the design.
I dunno, I guess I just understand the concept of building a world without artificial mechanics or limitations, and dumping in a bunch of players to "live" there. I have my own problems with DF and especially AV, which is why I don't play anymore, but crying about lack of content is just silly to me. I mean, someone above me here even tried to claim that DF is no different than a Battlefield game, and I just have to fucking laugh at that. Battlefield doesn't have city building, and a static map that allows it's players to build an empire, with other players as units in a MMO-RTS style game. People just don't see the "big picture" most of the time with Darkfall....they are too worried about loot and grinding.
No, you missed the point.
EVE online is a great example of a game without much linear dev created content. But there IS structure, and the mechanics of the game allows for it.
Everything in DF is so counterintuitive, they've succeeded in making the grind worse.. since at least in games like WoW and LOTRO.. your doing fun quests, with likeable NPCs and in lively and vividly built landscapes. DF looks like an emo kid took a shit, and decided to keep it as a pet. You folks who say "you people only care about grinding and loot"...
well, at least I get something in return for my grinding. There are plenty of games with city building, and player housing.. this is nothing new. It certainly doesn't make up for the whole game being like it is. The ideas behind darkfall are good, but the 100% sandbox game is obsolete to all but a very small group. Those people are playing darkfall..
I didn't miss the point at all. Notice that I didn't compare DF to other MMOs?? That's the big fucking mistake that everyone keeps making.
You wanna play WoW? Go play it. EVE, L2, whatever...go play them. We get it, you don't like Darkfall, but not because it's Darkfall...you don't like it because it's NOT one of the other games you claim are so great.
You like quests. Cool. Personally I'll probably puke if I have to do another goddamn quest grind. I'm sick of quests, and levels, and classes, and gear grinding.
And there's a huge community just waiting for a company to pull off a GOOD sandbox game. Darkfall is NOT that game...DF is a PVP game focusing on clan warfare with some sandbox elements. It's not the second coming of UO, or Pre-CU SWG.
DF is a virtual world set in a barbaric time, with as few artificial mechanics in place as possible. A lot of people just can't seem to get that simple truth through their heads. They're looking for "game mechanics", and completely fucking missing the point of what the game is supposed to be. They rant and rave about what thegame isn't, without even understand what it IS.
Sadly, AV and Tasos are money-grubbing fucks, and as a result what could have been a good MMORPG some day will probably end up dying a pathetic death in the not-so-distant future.
I have a hard time believing this from a DF supporter. Suddenly after the departure of the few mad fanbots, the remaining supporters are talking sense. I salute you in putting it out blunt but clear.
Whatever DF is, it is not what it was supposed to be, not what was advertised on the web. AV cannot pull that off.
Accepting what DF is now, put aside the hostility due to the webs of lies before the launch, we can then see what DF can offer to those who still like it. FFA PvP. That and all. Now it is true that we have no good FFA PvP games left, so DF cornered that small market, however small. Do we know much about this market?
This segment of the market is possibly bigger than just 5k players. DF does not do its job well, it failed to set foot even when it is the temporary monopoly in that market. We can expect the effective sub size to grow a few times if another good game comes in to displace DF. Will MO do it? Will Aion do it? Will ...
I don't think Aion is the one, it is targetting a bigger market. MO, I dunno, too few information about it.
Until a good implementation takes over the ruins left behind by DFo, we will never know what the small market of FFA PvP is. We will never know if that market is always dominated by griefer/gankers. We will never know if ppl can organise truly fun and rewarding player driven content, like EvE. Till then, we only have to guess, and DF is a failed attempt, not good enough as a basis to formulate judgment.
I played UO at length, I know what sandbox games are and what they are built upon. Which is player driven content. And back in 1997 when the MMO world was new and exciting, I trusted my fellow players to actually be smarter than a rock, and come up with inventive ways to play.
I remember having guild meetings complete with guild salutes and guild marches, and meeting in one of the many player created structures, and traversing through the undiscovered lands of Brittania, and having actual "enemies" and "alliances" that weren't just based on who has the stupidest guild name. The players have destroyed this kind of play.. not the games. I can do anything I used to do in UO in ANY game on the market... they all work essentially the same. You create a character, and you explore and socialize. But, back then.. things were different, because it was fresh and new. People didn't get so worked up about "grinds" and "loot". It was a "world" not a game....
Thats what has changed. The players. And therefore so did the games. Now, you've got companies attempting to fill a void where UO left off. The problem is, the old schoolers like us.. who were playing MMO's then, are outnumbered by the new schoolers, who don't just stick with the newschool games like WoW or whatever. They pollute all games, and in 1997 when all mmo's were niche to the mmo crowd.. now the mmo crowd is EVERYBODY.. so all the things we never saw back in 1997 are showing through, in every game regardless of the mechanics.
So unless an MMO company decides to hand pick its players from only old schoolers.. expect every game to have those people playing them and further destroying what all of us remembered about the games from that time. Expect people to grind and complain, expect them to macro afk, and expect them to figure out any way they can to "game" the system instead of immersing themselves into the world.
Alot of us forget that MMO's were derived quite a bit from MUDS before them, and pen and paper before those. Whats the difference in those and MMO's of today? They were "roleplaying". Today, if you play <insert game here> you won't run into Edward the Knight of Rivendell, it will be "Chris" the 15 year old kid who is standing afk shooting mana missles at a wall, while he's on his xbox 360 playing halo 3.
Very well said... I notice that same difference in players since the older MMOs... and I don't even go as far back as 1997 in MMOs. Even in 2003/04, you still saw players eager to immerse themselves in a world... Now, as you point out, you have more and more players simply trying to "beat the game" faster and better than everyone else.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I dunno, I guess I just understand the concept of building a world without artificial mechanics or limitations, and dumping in a bunch of players to "live" there. I have my own problems with DF and especially AV, which is why I don't play anymore, but crying about lack of content is just silly to me. I mean, someone above me here even tried to claim that DF is no different than a Battlefield game, and I just have to fucking laugh at that. Battlefield doesn't have city building, and a static map that allows it's players to build an empire, with other players as units in a MMO-RTS style game. People just don't see the "big picture" most of the time with Darkfall....they are too worried about loot and grinding.
No, you missed the point.
EVE online is a great example of a game without much linear dev created content. But there IS structure, and the mechanics of the game allows for it.
Everything in DF is so counterintuitive, they've succeeded in making the grind worse.. since at least in games like WoW and LOTRO.. your doing fun quests, with likeable NPCs and in lively and vividly built landscapes. DF looks like an emo kid took a shit, and decided to keep it as a pet. You folks who say "you people only care about grinding and loot"...
well, at least I get something in return for my grinding. There are plenty of games with city building, and player housing.. this is nothing new. It certainly doesn't make up for the whole game being like it is. The ideas behind darkfall are good, but the 100% sandbox game is obsolete to all but a very small group. Those people are playing darkfall..
I didn't miss the point at all. Notice that I didn't compare DF to other MMOs?? That's the big fucking mistake that everyone keeps making.
You wanna play WoW? Go play it. EVE, L2, whatever...go play them. We get it, you don't like Darkfall, but not because it's Darkfall...you don't like it because it's NOT one of the other games you claim are so great.
Just wanted to reply to this bit by saying that several of the rabid fans around here were (and still are when convenient) all too happy to use Eve as a comparison when it suits them, as well as other MMOs. It's not only those who "don't like Darkfall" making the comparisons.
Also, just because people compare DF to another game doesn't mean that they want it to be like that other game. Another game can be a point-of-reference to help explain something as well.
"If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road, and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Comments
There is a vocal minority, not a huge community.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
True to an extent but I think there are still those of us who aren't fooled by the DF of the world or the rabid fanboys of these types of games who swear this is what a sandox is. There is nothing wrong with having actual gameplay content in a game as long as the tools exist to also exist in this open world but until one of the themepark games on the market takes steps to make sure that people are aware and active in that play style we will be stuck with companies like AV who try to decieve us into thinking these glorified chat rooms are sandbox.
but yeah, to call this game Fantastic is like calling Twilight the Godfather of vampire movies....
No, you missed the point.
EVE online is a great example of a game without much linear dev created content. But there IS structure, and the mechanics of the game allows for it.
Everything in DF is so counterintuitive, they've succeeded in making the grind worse.. since at least in games like WoW and LOTRO.. your doing fun quests, with likeable NPCs and in lively and vividly built landscapes. DF looks like an emo kid took a shit, and decided to keep it as a pet. You folks who say "you people only care about grinding and loot"...
well, at least I get something in return for my grinding. There are plenty of games with city building, and player housing.. this is nothing new. It certainly doesn't make up for the whole game being like it is. The ideas behind darkfall are good, but the 100% sandbox game is obsolete to all but a very small group. Those people are playing darkfall..
I didn't miss the point at all. Notice that I didn't compare DF to other MMOs?? That's the big fucking mistake that everyone keeps making.
You wanna play WoW? Go play it. EVE, L2, whatever...go play them. We get it, you don't like Darkfall, but not because it's Darkfall...you don't like it because it's NOT one of the other games you claim are so great.
You like quests. Cool. Personally I'll probably puke if I have to do another goddamn quest grind. I'm sick of quests, and levels, and classes, and gear grinding.
And there's a huge community just waiting for a company to pull off a GOOD sandbox game. Darkfall is NOT that game...DF is a PVP game focusing on clan warfare with some sandbox elements. It's not the second coming of UO, or Pre-CU SWG.
DF is a virtual world set in a barbaric time, with as few artificial mechanics in place as possible. A lot of people just can't seem to get that simple truth through their heads. They're looking for "game mechanics", and completely fucking missing the point of what the game is supposed to be. They rant and rave about what thegame isn't, without even understand what it IS.
Sadly, AV and Tasos are money-grubbing fucks, and as a result what could have been a good MMORPG some day will probably end up dying a pathetic death in the not-so-distant future.
I played UO at length, I know what sandbox games are and what they are built upon. Which is player driven content. And back in 1997 when the MMO world was new and exciting, I trusted my fellow players to actually be smarter than a rock, and come up with inventive ways to play.
I remember having guild meetings complete with guild salutes and guild marches, and meeting in one of the many player created structures, and traversing through the undiscovered lands of Brittania, and having actual "enemies" and "alliances" that weren't just based on who has the stupidest guild name. The players have destroyed this kind of play.. not the games. I can do anything I used to do in UO in ANY game on the market... they all work essentially the same. You create a character, and you explore and socialize. But, back then.. things were different, because it was fresh and new. People didn't get so worked up about "grinds" and "loot". It was a "world" not a game....
Thats what has changed. The players. And therefore so did the games. Now, you've got companies attempting to fill a void where UO left off. The problem is, the old schoolers like us.. who were playing MMO's then, are outnumbered by the new schoolers, who don't just stick with the newschool games like WoW or whatever. They pollute all games, and in 1997 when all mmo's were niche to the mmo crowd.. now the mmo crowd is EVERYBODY.. so all the things we never saw back in 1997 are showing through, in every game regardless of the mechanics.
So unless an MMO company decides to hand pick its players from only old schoolers.. expect every game to have those people playing them and further destroying what all of us remembered about the games from that time. Expect people to grind and complain, expect them to macro afk, and expect them to figure out any way they can to "game" the system instead of immersing themselves into the world.
Alot of us forget that MMO's were derived quite a bit from MUDS before them, and pen and paper before those. Whats the difference in those and MMO's of today? They were "roleplaying". Today, if you play <insert game here> you won't run into Edward the Knight of Rivendell, it will be "Chris" the 15 year old kid who is standing afk shooting mana missles at a wall, while he's on his xbox 360 playing halo 3.
www.facebook.com/themarksmovierules
Currently playing:
FFXIV on Behemoth, FFXI on Eden, and Gloria Victis on NA.
This is the jist of it.
People think that sandbox = empty world with no structured content. They seem to trust their fellow players enough to think they will take the time to think of inventive ways to play the game that will replace the fact that there is no dev created content.
Even in the old days, "sandboxes" had some kind of content, even if it wasn't dev created like themepark mmo's, there were events, and things that were fun to do in place of themepark style content. Now they just think "Here's a big 3d chat room it took us 10 years to make.. good luck figuring out what you want to do in it".
Second Life with a fantasy skin on it.. IMO.
Welcome to PvP centric Sandbox games. Everything leads back to PvP as it should. Hell, even houses are tied directly to a PvP aspect of the game by requiring people to pay a tax on their house to fule the village system's reward mechanism. There is nothing wrong with this. However, what you and everyone else fails to notice is the fact that DFO has DUNGEONS, OVER 250 QUEST, AND MOBS. The PvE is there, just no one does it becuase the player base only cares about PvP.
Dungeons which essentially are just another mob spawns and 250 quests divided between 6 races. Don't forget that quests are three types: kill x mobs, bring x of y and kill x mob in y time.
That's not the content we need.
There is nothinng wrong with liking a theme part type game more, one that gives more direction with icons over quest givers heads and such. DFO isn't like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have content, only that you didn't find it. I'm sorry to hear of your dissapointment, but it sounds more like a game style preference than a criticism of the game. Sort of like "If DFO was more like X game, I'd llike it more". It's not like any game I've ever played, but I've only been playing games for five years. I loved WoW, but this game is so different and open with so much happening in politics, pvp, gvg, alliance vs alliance, citry vs city, etc. etc. It just sounds like it's not for you.
Other
There is nothinng wrong with liking a theme part type game more, one that gives more direction with icons over quest givers heads and such. DFO isn't like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have content, only that you didn't find it. I'm sorry to hear of your dissapointment, but it sounds more like a game style preference than a criticism of the game. Sort of like "If DFO was more like X game, I'd llike it more". It's not like any game I've ever played, but I've only been playing games for five years. I loved WoW, but this game is so different and open with so much happening in politics, pvp, gvg, alliance vs alliance, citry vs city, etc. etc. It just sounds like it's not for you.
Other
Games like this can work, when they are developed and fleshed out correctly, the concepts are cool for DF.. the implementation of them are whats sour. Its a griefers haven, and the rules of the game add to it.
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That was a pretty good write up and should provoke some interesting conversation beyond the typical "go back to WoW" retorts.
When looking at a game that claims to be sandbox, I often try to compare against SWG and EvE as this is where my experience came from. What are we if nothing but the product of our experiences right? So with that in mind, there is one simple question that defines a sandbox for me:
Can I be a viable player, and enjoy myself, with out participating in combat?
Now, don't get me wrong. I like PvP as much as the next guy, but, a sandbox is supposed to be an open world where you can do whatever, right? Therefore, I should be able to be a crafter, merchant, politician, etc. The moment you label something an "<Adjective> Sandbox", it has stopped being a sandbox and has become an "<Adjective> Game". Something is either a sandbox with freedom or it is a game oriented to a certain goal (PvP, economy simulation, etc).
I agree with what you've said about a hybrid approach and, again, I flashback to SWG. I believe this game had a hybrid approach. I mean, they even had questlines referred to as "themeparks". Aside from that though, there was significant motivation based on existing lore and dev introduced conflict, to keep PvP going. Prime examples would be the "Live Events" where NPC Imperials may invade Theed as an example. Rebels would get notice on their ship comms or word would spread via Player Associations and friends lists. Ultimately, you would see large scale PvP in a (then) major city. For all the things that have gone wrong in SWG, I thlnk the live events stand out as a way devs can motivate lore based conflicts.
Don't get me wrong though; the introduction of quests and dev involvement do not cause the game to stop being a sandbox. The underlying mechanics of the game still facilitate whatever play style I choose and the features of the game provide more options for those varying play styles.
Aside from living in the past for a moment, I think these ideas can find modern application. I think one of DF's more under-utilized assets is it's lore. Lore is just one of the tools that helps provide a player, especially a new one, with a springboard with which they can dive into the turbulent waters of DF's world. If nothing else, it provides a point of reference to get someone's imagination moving and get them through those first few days of getting oriented.
bear in mind..purely my opinions...your mileage may vary..
edit: late night typos and incomplete thoughts....
-mklinic
"Do something right, no one remembers.
Do something wrong, no one forgets"
-from No One Remembers by In Strict Confidence
This is the jist of it.
People think that sandbox = empty world with no structured content. They seem to trust their fellow players enough to think they will take the time to think of inventive ways to play the game that will replace the fact that there is no dev created content.
Even in the old days, "sandboxes" had some kind of content, even if it wasn't dev created like themepark mmo's, there were events, and things that were fun to do in place of themepark style content. Now they just think "Here's a big 3d chat room it took us 10 years to make.. good luck figuring out what you want to do in it".
Second Life with a fantasy skin on it.. IMO.
Welcome to PvP centric Sandbox games. Everything leads back to PvP as it should. Hell, even houses are tied directly to a PvP aspect of the game by requiring people to pay a tax on their house to fule the village system's reward mechanism. There is nothing wrong with this. However, what you and everyone else fails to notice is the fact that DFO has DUNGEONS, OVER 250 QUEST, AND MOBS. The PvE is there, just no one does it becuase the player base only cares about PvP.
Dungeons which essentially are just another mob spawns and 250 quests divided between 6 races. Don't forget that quests are three types: kill x mobs, bring x of y and kill x mob in y time.
That's not the content we need.
250 random unrealated kill X quests is hardly a "Killer PvE" experience like was promised..........
Dem hibbies! Dey be wrong!
lol
It amazes me people always asking wheres the content in a sandbox game. What is content? Is content a linear quest system with easy going rewards and a flat learning curve?
Answer the question, what is content?
Content in a sandbox is player made through politics and knowing the fact that your actions ACTUALLY have an impact on the games story line. Whereas a casual game is the exact opposite.
Some people will never get it through their head. The funnest time ive ever had in a game was a game called face of mankind. No "" Content "" whatsoever. Just player made fun and despair with actual emotion. In a game where there is a risk reward system, you feel truly pissed off, and you feel truly enlightended when things happen. And knowing that what you do will have an impact on the games direction. A game where the developer lets the player decide where the game goes. Some people, will never understand this concept because they have a completely different mindset when they enter this type of game, and are expecting a different rendition of the same type of linear MMO they enjoy. Or mabye they arent creative enough to imagine the endless scenarios possible.
Im sorry but when people say a "sandbox" is another term for a game with no content, your in a different playing field than the people that understand and enjoy this type of game.
Yay for content! Quests! Pve raids! Instances! Theres nothing else out there! /end sarcasm
No, I understand full well that a "sandbox" game is player driven.
But, DF as is the topic of this discussion is "PVP driven". The mechanics of the game facilitate it, and it is the "means" to an end that other games use PVE or a mixture of PVP/PVE for. Sandbox games are "focused" on player driven content.. content that is created and imagined by the players. What I was trying to get across, is that in the year 2009.. people don't know how to do that anymore, and don't care to. I don't need a world filled with nothing but trees and a few buildings for it to be "sandbox". I can create the same content in WoW, EQ2, EVE, LOTRO, VANGUARD...
Its just the fact that people won't, and even in a game where its supposed to be sandbox they don't. Maxing skills by afk macroing is not "immersive" or "player driven".. its the equivalent to running the same instance over and over to get some phat loots. Its because people don't know how to play like that anymore, and you can make any kind of game you want and slap any silly "title" on it you want.. it won't change the way the players play in 2009 and thus a "sandbox" game will wind up being a graphical chat room and nothing more.
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This game is about forming clans and declare war on on other clans, and take their stuff. I remember the devs posted on the old website about how harsh the game can be for soloers. So there should be no surprise. And as far as content goes, the content is the players, clans, sieges. Some people needs a reality check and stop the QQ. Whoever was expecting carebear solo PvE a la WoW please go to the official website and read the FAQs.
No, you missed the point.
EVE online is a great example of a game without much linear dev created content. But there IS structure, and the mechanics of the game allows for it.
Everything in DF is so counterintuitive, they've succeeded in making the grind worse.. since at least in games like WoW and LOTRO.. your doing fun quests, with likeable NPCs and in lively and vividly built landscapes. DF looks like an emo kid took a shit, and decided to keep it as a pet. You folks who say "you people only care about grinding and loot"...
well, at least I get something in return for my grinding. There are plenty of games with city building, and player housing.. this is nothing new. It certainly doesn't make up for the whole game being like it is. The ideas behind darkfall are good, but the 100% sandbox game is obsolete to all but a very small group. Those people are playing darkfall..
I didn't miss the point at all. Notice that I didn't compare DF to other MMOs?? That's the big fucking mistake that everyone keeps making.
You wanna play WoW? Go play it. EVE, L2, whatever...go play them. We get it, you don't like Darkfall, but not because it's Darkfall...you don't like it because it's NOT one of the other games you claim are so great.
You like quests. Cool. Personally I'll probably puke if I have to do another goddamn quest grind. I'm sick of quests, and levels, and classes, and gear grinding.
And there's a huge community just waiting for a company to pull off a GOOD sandbox game. Darkfall is NOT that game...DF is a PVP game focusing on clan warfare with some sandbox elements. It's not the second coming of UO, or Pre-CU SWG.
DF is a virtual world set in a barbaric time, with as few artificial mechanics in place as possible. A lot of people just can't seem to get that simple truth through their heads. They're looking for "game mechanics", and completely fucking missing the point of what the game is supposed to be. They rant and rave about what thegame isn't, without even understand what it IS.
Sadly, AV and Tasos are money-grubbing fucks, and as a result what could have been a good MMORPG some day will probably end up dying a pathetic death in the not-so-distant future.
I played UO at length, I know what sandbox games are and what they are built upon. Which is player driven content. And back in 1997 when the MMO world was new and exciting, I trusted my fellow players to actually be smarter than a rock, and come up with inventive ways to play.
I remember having guild meetings complete with guild salutes and guild marches, and meeting in one of the many player created structures, and traversing through the undiscovered lands of Brittania, and having actual "enemies" and "alliances" that weren't just based on who has the stupidest guild name. The players have destroyed this kind of play.. not the games. I can do anything I used to do in UO in ANY game on the market... they all work essentially the same. You create a character, and you explore and socialize. But, back then.. things were different, because it was fresh and new. People didn't get so worked up about "grinds" and "loot". It was a "world" not a game....
Thats what has changed. The players. And therefore so did the games. Now, you've got companies attempting to fill a void where UO left off. The problem is, the old schoolers like us.. who were playing MMO's then, are outnumbered by the new schoolers, who don't just stick with the newschool games like WoW or whatever. They pollute all games, and in 1997 when all mmo's were niche to the mmo crowd.. now the mmo crowd is EVERYBODY.. so all the things we never saw back in 1997 are showing through, in every game regardless of the mechanics.
So unless an MMO company decides to hand pick its players from only old schoolers.. expect every game to have those people playing them and further destroying what all of us remembered about the games from that time. Expect people to grind and complain, expect them to macro afk, and expect them to figure out any way they can to "game" the system instead of immersing themselves into the world.
Alot of us forget that MMO's were derived quite a bit from MUDS before them, and pen and paper before those. Whats the difference in those and MMO's of today? They were "roleplaying". Today, if you play <insert game here> you won't run into Edward the Knight of Rivendell, it will be "Chris" the 15 year old kid who is standing afk shooting mana missles at a wall, while he's on his xbox 360 playing halo 3.
Accurate statements there. I think a lot of people get over-nostalgic for the "golden" times of UO. Yes, there was full loot and FFA PVP, but there were a lot of basic mechanics that have been introduced to the MMO that didn't exist back then...i.e. no in-game chat.
But your point about MMOs being a niche is well made. There was only a handful of old-schoolers back then who played these games. And UO derived from the Ultima Series, a series in itself was a single player RPG with stories and characters to immerse yourself with. In all, I think Darkfall is an experiment in taking a few old-school mechanics (FFA PVP, Full Loot) and testing it on the new generation of MMO players. It fails to work like it did ten years ago because the UO ten years ago offered much more than those two features and undeniably, the player-base has changed. MMOs are no longer a niche and have been invaded by all the console twitched teens whose only experience with old DND is the movie that was released several years ago.
You're missing the point entirely. The OP, and I, coincidentally, are not WoW babies. It wasn't our first MMO. I've played MUDS back when I was younger, I played UO months after launch, so please don't tell me that when I approach an MMO I'm looking for the WoW-model.
I actually yearn for the complexities of the older RPGs (much like UO had). When EQ came along and moved the genre to first-person, I felt something was lost. It was new and exciting yet there was less, somehow. I digress.
I get what DF tried to achieve. What looked good on paper and web boards, sadly didn't manifest itself the way promised and what you have is a macroing zerg fest. Not a new immersive MMO.
No, I understand full well that a "sandbox" game is player driven.
But, DF as is the topic of this discussion is "PVP driven". The mechanics of the game facilitate it, and it is the "means" to an end that other games use PVE or a mixture of PVP/PVE for. Sandbox games are "focused" on player driven content.. content that is created and imagined by the players. What I was trying to get across, is that in the year 2009.. people don't know how to do that anymore, and don't care to. I don't need a world filled with nothing but trees and a few buildings for it to be "sandbox". I can create the same content in WoW, EQ2, EVE, LOTRO, VANGUARD...
Its just the fact that people won't, and even in a game where its supposed to be sandbox they don't. Maxing skills by afk macroing is not "immersive" or "player driven".. its the equivalent to running the same instance over and over to get some phat loots. Its because people don't know how to play like that anymore, and you can make any kind of game you want and slap any silly "title" on it you want.. it won't change the way the players play in 2009 and thus a "sandbox" game will wind up being a graphical chat room and nothing more.
I wasnt refering to the OP just a post a few down, forgot to quote it.
Your saying now its 2009 and people dont have to create their own content, and dont care to. Yes this is true for alot of players. Thats why "niche" games cater to a small minority that DOES enjoy imagined content. Its great because in a sense its endless, i dont want linear boundaries. Even though i have thoughly enjoyed linear MMO's, i still get alot of enjoyment from player created content for my own reasons. And no you cant create the same clan politics in WoW and EQ2. Mabye to a very minor extent, but nothing like Darkfall or other related sandboxes. Some people just love being able to create content and have yourself and others shape it.
On your OP. Yes darkfall does have assholes, just like every game. Stepping stone MMO's brought in a larger and more immature (imo) crowd. And now youve just gotta deal with em. But if you get in a clan and alliance and meet some good buddies to do stuff with, its really fun and brings out the shine.
You're missing the point entirely. The OP, and I, coincidentally, are not WoW babies. It wasn't our first MMO. I've played MUDS back when I was younger, I played UO months after launch, so please don't tell me that when I approach an MMO I'm looking for the WoW-model.
I actually yearn for the complexities of the older RPGs (much like UO had). When EQ came along and moved the genre to first-person, I felt something was lost. It was new and exciting yet there was less, somehow. I digress.
I get what DF tried to achieve. What looked good on paper and web boards, sadly didn't manifest itself the way promised and what you have is a macroing zerg fest. Not a new immersive MMO.
If you tell me that there are not enough players and that players in-game are not interested in forming clans, then perhaps MMO devs should re-think what type of MMO they should develop. These days nobody cares about UO or old school MMO players. The features of the game were listed in the official website and they are very easy to understand. This is not UO. And, I was not quoting anybody when I posted. Many people over here QQ a lot about DF without even knowing what the game is about. I don't like DF by the way, but the game content and what it offers are very easy to see. Forget about the complexities of old school games unless you are still playing them. DF, MO and future MMOs will NEVER have the same "complexities" you want in MMOs. And as far as macros in DF goes, the devs addressed the issue, now you just cant throw spells in the air and have your skills increased that way. But I don't recommend you to wait for a miracle. Don't be surprised if the devs start to patch the game to make it more carebearish.
There is nothinng wrong with liking a theme part type game more, one that gives more direction with icons over quest givers heads and such. DFO isn't like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have content, only that you didn't find it. I'm sorry to hear of your dissapointment, but it sounds more like a game style preference than a criticism of the game. Sort of like "If DFO was more like X game, I'd llike it more". It's not like any game I've ever played, but I've only been playing games for five years. I loved WoW, but this game is so different and open with so much happening in politics, pvp, gvg, alliance vs alliance, citry vs city, etc. etc. It just sounds like it's not for you.
Other
Games like this can work, when they are developed and fleshed out correctly, the concepts are cool for DF.. the implementation of them are whats sour. Its a griefers haven, and the rules of the game add to it.
I highly respect your opinion after reading all your posts on this thread and understanding your game history. It is far more robust than mine. What I don't understand is why my experience is so much different from yours. I created an Elf when NA opened on the 13th, had a great time and found a good spot to level up my skills, get loot and the occasional racial enemy would show up for some pvp action. When the spots I enjoyed began becoming full of griefers, a few people I got to know while there invited me to join their guild. I looked them up on the in game guild info., reviewed the roster and noticed they had a holding. They explained most of them were Elf and they had a cool city south. They gave me vent info. and off I went on Vent to speak and get to know them better. All very mature older players; don't allow trash talking etc., so I joined. I don't have problems with griefers any more.
I'd like to ask you a question and would appreciate if you would think about it a while and answer honestly. Is it possible that it's not the game that has issues in design as you suggest, but your lack of will to take responsibility and do what the game allows to turn a bad situation in to a great one?
Thank you.
We aren't QQing. I knew what the features were when I bought the game. Yeah, alot of them are missing. And in 1997 some of the things people manipulate in the game probably wouldn't have even been an issue, because people just "played" the game. Now its so much about being at "MAX" and doing it the fastest.. I ran around the zones yesterday and over half the people I saw were running into a walll afk skilling up. Totally kills the immersion and "sandbox" feel for me. DF has the tools to create something good, but they have to actually listen to the playerbase instead of ignoring them.
All that DF amounts to is AV spent 9 years creating an engine, and spent a year throwing in the rest of the crap half assed. So, it doesn't work like it should, and todays Halo 3 gamers have already figured out how to "manipulate" it to give them the advantage instead of just playing the game as intended.
I actually fault the players more than the game. I'm old enough and mature enough to just "play" and won't be afk macroing or bloodwalling in order to compete. If I can't do it the old fashioned way, then I will find another game.
The bottom line is, you can put whatever mechanics you wish to put in a game. Its not new anymore, and all many people care about is being the best, in whatever means possible. They suck all the fun out of it for all the rest of us who grew up playing these games. WoW is partly to blame, because had it not been for that game.. the "niche" that was the mmo crowd.. may still exist today. But, we can't change the past... so, to alleviate some it. The least the game devs can do is construct the games better so that these players either get fed up and quit, or make things like afk macroing and hacking impossible to do or at least get away with..
If you ever wonder what kind of people have poisoned your beloved MMO niche... just log on to Halo 3 on any given night, and make sure you have your voice chat on.
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I report people afk macroing, ie: running in to walls, and I watch them get booted from the server. My father tells me the same exact thing happened in UO, but it was with players standing still and macroing sewing and stuff like that in their inventory. You seem like someone who can love this game, and not sure why you are allowing yoursefl to get stuck on what is truely trivial stuff in comparison to what the game offers.
with respect - Other
There is nothinng wrong with liking a theme part type game more, one that gives more direction with icons over quest givers heads and such. DFO isn't like that, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have content, only that you didn't find it. I'm sorry to hear of your dissapointment, but it sounds more like a game style preference than a criticism of the game. Sort of like "If DFO was more like X game, I'd llike it more". It's not like any game I've ever played, but I've only been playing games for five years. I loved WoW, but this game is so different and open with so much happening in politics, pvp, gvg, alliance vs alliance, citry vs city, etc. etc. It just sounds like it's not for you.
Other
Games like this can work, when they are developed and fleshed out correctly, the concepts are cool for DF.. the implementation of them are whats sour. Its a griefers haven, and the rules of the game add to it.
I highly respect your opinion after reading all your posts on this thread and understanding your game history. It is far more robust than mine. What I don't understand is why my experience is so much different from yours. I created an Elf when NA opened on the 13th, had a great time and found a good spot to level up my skills, get loot and the occasional racial enemy would show up for some pvp action. When the spots I enjoyed began becoming full of griefers, a few people I got to know while there invited me to join their guild. I looked them up on the in game guild info., reviewed the roster and noticed they had a holding. They explained most of them were Elf and they had a cool city south. They gave me vent info. and off I went on Vent to speak and get to know them better. All very mature older players; don't allow trash talking etc., so I joined. I don't have problems with griefers any more.
I'd like to ask you a question and would appreciate if you would think about it a while and answer honestly. Is it possible that it's not the game that has issues in design as you suggest, but your lack of will to take responsibility and do what the game allows to turn a bad situation in to a great one?
Thank you.
Oh, I'm in a clan. They are all nice people, and all my age (I'm 28) or older. They've helped me quite a bit in game since starting. They even told me they'd show me their city when I was able to make the trek. This was on day 1.. and I was very excited about this type of stuff. Its the "golden years" type stuff we have been talking about.
The Problem is, that while there are nice people in every game. For every nice and friendly player who genuinely wants to make DF into a great game, I will pass by 10 people afk macroing. Some people can ignore this. But I can't. It kills the immersion factor. And to know that no matter how many goblins or other players I kill during my playtime. Those 10 people afk macroing will be the ones that destroy me later on, without actually having ever been at the pc while they were "skilling up". The ideas behind DF are great. And, even the way they've put it together would be great.. if this was 1997, before players knew what Halo 3, and what cheats and hacks to use to make sure they are better than everyone else. But its 2009, and these days it just doesn't work like it did then, and thats what alot of us old school players Thought we were going to get.. its not totally the games fault.. mostly this generation of players. The games ruleset and lack of certain restrictions.. and the devs unwillingness to do anything about is.. is why this game turns us off.
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Why? What do you know that I don't? Why isn't it possible to recreate an "old-style" MMO with all the new technology that we have today?
The market changed from the early days of the MMO. Why can't it change again? With more people interested in the genre, it becomes much more feasible to create a niche game to cater to specific needs. More people = more diversity in demand.
Lots of people care about old-school MMOs and their players. They are older people, with a more stable financial situation, money to invest in hardware if they so desire. They pull their weight today as they did in the past, but in a different way. It's a slice of the market that a smart and honest developer can certainly tap into.
Id argue wow had guild politics, drama and allaince pre TBC and TBC on pvp servers, so dont start ur cap about guild politics and drama, yes they may be more exagerated in Darkfall, but wow had and still has some of this to this day on the pvp servers. Even for a so callled carebear noob shit game.
I don't know if anyone's picked up on this, but sorry sweetie, if you think that trying to be the first to unlock a new instance is 'guild politics' you are mistaken. I have a fair bit of experience in one of the most drama heavy games out there, EQ2, and even that doesn't have guild politics.
As far as I can tell, Darkfall and EVE are currently the only places to see real interplayer politics, including emergent gameplay techniques typical of so called 'sandbox' environments. And let's be clear, EVE is always gonna do it better.
This is the jist of it.
People think that sandbox = empty world with no structured content. They seem to trust their fellow players enough to think they will take the time to think of inventive ways to play the game that will replace the fact that there is no dev created content.
Even in the old days, "sandboxes" had some kind of content, even if it wasn't dev created like themepark mmo's, there were events, and things that were fun to do in place of themepark style content. Now they just think "Here's a big 3d chat room it took us 10 years to make.. good luck figuring out what you want to do in it".
Second Life with a fantasy skin on it.. IMO.
Welcome to PvP centric Sandbox games. Everything leads back to PvP as it should. Hell, even houses are tied directly to a PvP aspect of the game by requiring people to pay a tax on their house to fule the village system's reward mechanism. There is nothing wrong with this. However, what you and everyone else fails to notice is the fact that DFO has DUNGEONS, OVER 250 QUEST, AND MOBS. The PvE is there, just no one does it becuase the player base only cares about PvP.
No offense, X, I seldom agree with u on DF, but I do treasure your opinion.
I keep wondering and comparing DF to DAoC. In DAoC, we all know the PvE is "fluff". Every reason for playing to max, and after max is RvR. We do not compete much in our realm, I actually hand out free armor, even 99% quality armor to good players I see in the frontier. PvP in DAoC format is the centre of the game.
But there is so much activity, everyone is involved. People are nice, even the opposing sides were nice to each other, in the rare occasion of meeting on other forums (no official forum then, not ever). There is a feeling of a game, of variety, of fun, of esprit de corps, of solidarity, of meaning. Most valuable of all, a community that makes the game fun.
There is nothing in DF, but a bunch of foul mouth kids (witnessed by the way the extremist post here) and proclaim that the meaningless zergs are the best gaming experience ever. A community that makes the worst game even more intolerable.
We use to blame AV for being a crappy developer, we use to blame the fanbots for excessiveness that ruins the game, but now you raised another point even harder to explain. If all the PvEs are there, why are people not playing it. Even those who spend months in the game, grew tired and bailed, did not bother switch over to trying the PvEs. Either it is too bad comparing with the PvEs of other game, and thus not worth spending time on it, or something in the game hinders enjoyment of PvEing for its own sake (say ganking?). I do not know. The more I look at DF, the deeper I feel the issue hides inside the design.
No, you missed the point.
EVE online is a great example of a game without much linear dev created content. But there IS structure, and the mechanics of the game allows for it.
Everything in DF is so counterintuitive, they've succeeded in making the grind worse.. since at least in games like WoW and LOTRO.. your doing fun quests, with likeable NPCs and in lively and vividly built landscapes. DF looks like an emo kid took a shit, and decided to keep it as a pet. You folks who say "you people only care about grinding and loot"...
well, at least I get something in return for my grinding. There are plenty of games with city building, and player housing.. this is nothing new. It certainly doesn't make up for the whole game being like it is. The ideas behind darkfall are good, but the 100% sandbox game is obsolete to all but a very small group. Those people are playing darkfall..
I didn't miss the point at all. Notice that I didn't compare DF to other MMOs?? That's the big fucking mistake that everyone keeps making.
You wanna play WoW? Go play it. EVE, L2, whatever...go play them. We get it, you don't like Darkfall, but not because it's Darkfall...you don't like it because it's NOT one of the other games you claim are so great.
You like quests. Cool. Personally I'll probably puke if I have to do another goddamn quest grind. I'm sick of quests, and levels, and classes, and gear grinding.
And there's a huge community just waiting for a company to pull off a GOOD sandbox game. Darkfall is NOT that game...DF is a PVP game focusing on clan warfare with some sandbox elements. It's not the second coming of UO, or Pre-CU SWG.
DF is a virtual world set in a barbaric time, with as few artificial mechanics in place as possible. A lot of people just can't seem to get that simple truth through their heads. They're looking for "game mechanics", and completely fucking missing the point of what the game is supposed to be. They rant and rave about what thegame isn't, without even understand what it IS.
Sadly, AV and Tasos are money-grubbing fucks, and as a result what could have been a good MMORPG some day will probably end up dying a pathetic death in the not-so-distant future.
I have a hard time believing this from a DF supporter. Suddenly after the departure of the few mad fanbots, the remaining supporters are talking sense. I salute you in putting it out blunt but clear.
Whatever DF is, it is not what it was supposed to be, not what was advertised on the web. AV cannot pull that off.
Accepting what DF is now, put aside the hostility due to the webs of lies before the launch, we can then see what DF can offer to those who still like it. FFA PvP. That and all. Now it is true that we have no good FFA PvP games left, so DF cornered that small market, however small. Do we know much about this market?
This segment of the market is possibly bigger than just 5k players. DF does not do its job well, it failed to set foot even when it is the temporary monopoly in that market. We can expect the effective sub size to grow a few times if another good game comes in to displace DF. Will MO do it? Will Aion do it? Will ...
I don't think Aion is the one, it is targetting a bigger market. MO, I dunno, too few information about it.
Until a good implementation takes over the ruins left behind by DFo, we will never know what the small market of FFA PvP is. We will never know if that market is always dominated by griefer/gankers. We will never know if ppl can organise truly fun and rewarding player driven content, like EvE. Till then, we only have to guess, and DF is a failed attempt, not good enough as a basis to formulate judgment.
I played UO at length, I know what sandbox games are and what they are built upon. Which is player driven content. And back in 1997 when the MMO world was new and exciting, I trusted my fellow players to actually be smarter than a rock, and come up with inventive ways to play.
I remember having guild meetings complete with guild salutes and guild marches, and meeting in one of the many player created structures, and traversing through the undiscovered lands of Brittania, and having actual "enemies" and "alliances" that weren't just based on who has the stupidest guild name. The players have destroyed this kind of play.. not the games. I can do anything I used to do in UO in ANY game on the market... they all work essentially the same. You create a character, and you explore and socialize. But, back then.. things were different, because it was fresh and new. People didn't get so worked up about "grinds" and "loot". It was a "world" not a game....
Thats what has changed. The players. And therefore so did the games. Now, you've got companies attempting to fill a void where UO left off. The problem is, the old schoolers like us.. who were playing MMO's then, are outnumbered by the new schoolers, who don't just stick with the newschool games like WoW or whatever. They pollute all games, and in 1997 when all mmo's were niche to the mmo crowd.. now the mmo crowd is EVERYBODY.. so all the things we never saw back in 1997 are showing through, in every game regardless of the mechanics.
So unless an MMO company decides to hand pick its players from only old schoolers.. expect every game to have those people playing them and further destroying what all of us remembered about the games from that time. Expect people to grind and complain, expect them to macro afk, and expect them to figure out any way they can to "game" the system instead of immersing themselves into the world.
Alot of us forget that MMO's were derived quite a bit from MUDS before them, and pen and paper before those. Whats the difference in those and MMO's of today? They were "roleplaying". Today, if you play <insert game here> you won't run into Edward the Knight of Rivendell, it will be "Chris" the 15 year old kid who is standing afk shooting mana missles at a wall, while he's on his xbox 360 playing halo 3.
Very well said... I notice that same difference in players since the older MMOs... and I don't even go as far back as 1997 in MMOs. Even in 2003/04, you still saw players eager to immerse themselves in a world... Now, as you point out, you have more and more players simply trying to "beat the game" faster and better than everyone else.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
No, you missed the point.
EVE online is a great example of a game without much linear dev created content. But there IS structure, and the mechanics of the game allows for it.
Everything in DF is so counterintuitive, they've succeeded in making the grind worse.. since at least in games like WoW and LOTRO.. your doing fun quests, with likeable NPCs and in lively and vividly built landscapes. DF looks like an emo kid took a shit, and decided to keep it as a pet. You folks who say "you people only care about grinding and loot"...
well, at least I get something in return for my grinding. There are plenty of games with city building, and player housing.. this is nothing new. It certainly doesn't make up for the whole game being like it is. The ideas behind darkfall are good, but the 100% sandbox game is obsolete to all but a very small group. Those people are playing darkfall..
I didn't miss the point at all. Notice that I didn't compare DF to other MMOs?? That's the big fucking mistake that everyone keeps making.
You wanna play WoW? Go play it. EVE, L2, whatever...go play them. We get it, you don't like Darkfall, but not because it's Darkfall...you don't like it because it's NOT one of the other games you claim are so great.
Just wanted to reply to this bit by saying that several of the rabid fans around here were (and still are when convenient) all too happy to use Eve as a comparison when it suits them, as well as other MMOs. It's not only those who "don't like Darkfall" making the comparisons.
Also, just because people compare DF to another game doesn't mean that they want it to be like that other game. Another game can be a point-of-reference to help explain something as well.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops