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I'm starting to realize a lot of things I thought were bad design are actually brilliant design.

TrenchgunTrenchgun Member Posts: 295
in Darkfall

It takes a while, experience really, to appreciate why certain things work the way they do do. For example:

-The drag looting system forces you to be slow in looting, to prevent easy drive by kill and loot in PvP.

-The slowly rotating task bar is not a bug but part of the design. For a game where every skill is open to you to eventually max, the only limitation put on what players can do is what spells and equipment they load into their active taskbar. So if you want to be able to switch between melee, archery, and magery all at once you're not going to have room for a lot of spells, or other useful items. And if you're a specced mage with many schools it will force you to think strategically about what kind of spells you want to have access to in each taskbar. So switching task bars is kind of like switching combat modes, which is why it is not instant.

 

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Comments

  • elderotterelderotter Member Posts: 651
    Originally posted by Trenchgun


    It takes a while, experience really, to appreciate why certain things work the way they do do. For example:
    -The drag looting system forces you to be slow in looting, to prevent easy drive by kill and loot in PvP.
    -The slowly rotating task bar is not a bug but part of the design. For a game where every skill is open to you to eventually max, the only limitation put on what players can do is what spells and equipment they load into their active taskbar. So if you want to be able to switch between melee, archery, and magery all at once you're not going to have room for a lot of spells, or other useful items. And if you're a specced mage with many schools it will force you to think strategically about what kind of spells you want to have access to in each taskbar. So switching task bars is kind of like switching combat modes, which is why it is not instant.
     

    WHAT?

  • Hammertime1Hammertime1 Member Posts: 619
    Originally posted by Trenchgun


    It takes a while, experience really, to appreciate why certain things work the way they do do. For example:
    -The drag looting system forces you to be slow in looting, to prevent easy drive by kill and loot in PvP.
    -The slowly rotating task bar is not a bug but part of the design. For a game where every skill is open to you to eventually max, the only limitation put on what players can do is what spells and equipment they load into their active taskbar. So if you want to be able to switch between melee, archery, and magery all at once you're not going to have room for a lot of spells, or other useful items. And if you're a specced mage with many schools it will force you to think strategically about what kind of spells you want to have access to in each taskbar. So switching task bars is kind of like switching combat modes, which is why it is not instant.
     



     

    "So switching task bars is kind of like switching combat modes, which is why it is not instant."

     

    No, it's not instant because they lack good programmers.

    Please don't point out mistakes made by AV as some wise move on their part - that's intellectually dishonest and transparent, to boot.

     

  • StrixMaximaStrixMaxima Member UncommonPosts: 865

    Drag looting is a sensible option for a full-loot MMO. Point for DFO. However, the taskbar thing... what? TB switching is as old as the taskbar itself. Not being instant is hardly intentional, because otherwise Tasos would advertise is as "limitless combat stances easily accessible to you, a revolutionary system!"

    "Brilliant design", however, provoked laughs in earnest.

  • rhinokrhinok Member UncommonPosts: 1,798
    Originally posted by StrixMaxima


    Drag looting is a sensible option for a full-loot MMO. Point for DFO. However, the taskbar thing... what? TB switching is as old as the taskbar itself. Not being instant is hardly intentional, because otherwise Tasos would advertise is as "limitless combat stances easily accessible to you, a revolutionary system!"
    "Brilliant design", however, provoked laughs in earnest.

     

    What he said.

    Drag looting = good

    Task bars and their overall design = bad

    ~Ripper

  • TrenchgunTrenchgun Member Posts: 295

    You assume it's a bug, but you're wrong, and that is the point of this thread - It's actually a perfect way of balancing out an open skill system in a PvP game like this, you just haven't yet come to realize this yet.

    The game is full of things like that which might seem like mistakes at first but you should appreciate them later after experiencing how they add to the game.

  • BoA*BoA* Member UncommonPosts: 159

    He didn't say it was a bug but merely bad programming on their part.

  • daarcodaarco Member UncommonPosts: 4,276

    So if its not as in WoW...it is a fail? Thats a good way to shrink your gaming world view.

    In Darkfall things work DIFFERENT then in meanstream MMOs. That dont mean it is bad programing or bad design. And if you dont like that, there must be about 500 other MMOs that use other ways, that you can play instead.

    I dont know what is happening to people today. Its the thing with music, cars, clothes, movies, gardens, swimming, fishing or whatever. Just because someone does something in a way you are not used to.....dont mean it is wrong.

     

  • aednaedn Member Posts: 70
    Originally posted by Trenchgun


    It takes a while, experience really, to appreciate why certain things work the way they do do. For example:
    -The drag looting system forces you to be slow in looting, to prevent easy drive by kill and loot in PvP.
    -The slowly rotating task bar is not a bug but part of the design. For a game where every skill is open to you to eventually max, the only limitation put on what players can do is what spells and equipment they load into their active taskbar. So if you want to be able to switch between melee, archery, and magery all at once you're not going to have room for a lot of spells, or other useful items. And if you're a specced mage with many schools it will force you to think strategically about what kind of spells you want to have access to in each taskbar. So switching task bars is kind of like switching combat modes, which is why it is not instant.
     



     

    The drag and drop method is actually typical of AV's design mentality. In theory its very good design, in practice its just not that good, or very flawed.  Most everyone i knew after 2 months was using some form of loot macro, either via 3rd party programs or something like a G15 keyboard that allows you to click drag if you hit 1 key.  This eliminates the point of the design,as people could empty corpses in less then 2 seconds. Again a very typical example of a design, that has good intentions but does not take into account the ability or mentality of the players who will be relying on that design. Poor designs dont take into account actions of individuals who use them, good designs do and limit the actions of those individuals.

    As far as a slowly rotating task bar, i cant agree with you at all there. All it did at best was reinforce the macro mentality, as people would just use macros rather then messing with a clunky UI.

  • daarcodaarco Member UncommonPosts: 4,276

    "Everyone i know used loot macro because its a flawed loot system in Darkfall"

    Thats a pretty lame excuse. People use loot macros in every MMO. It have nothing to do with the loot system. Its about lazy people who dont have any real interest in the game they are playing! And so they cheat.

  • FariicFariic Member Posts: 1,546

    Didn't the last patch add the ability to have mulitple hotbats?

    And stop pressing shift and moving the scroll wheel.

    You can change between hotbars instantly.

    Point two is completely wrong.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by daarco


    So if its not as in WoW...it is a fail? Thats a good way to shrink your gaming world view.
    In Darkfall things work DIFFERENT then in meanstream MMOs. That dont mean it is bad programing or bad design. And if you dont like that, there must be about 500 other MMOs that use other ways, that you can play instead.

     

    Of course not. Diversity and new thinking is good for the genre.

    But some of DFs controls are rather..primitive. A good user interface makes any game better. And UI is one of the things that Df needs to improve.

    However could most MMOs use improvement including Wow, I don't like it's UI either so I am not trying to bash a single game. But the OP is trying to pass of a bad UI as a well thought balancing system and that is just not true.

    I personally prefer the UI from Guildwars.

  • daarcodaarco Member UncommonPosts: 4,276
    Originally posted by Loke666

    Originally posted by daarco


    So if its not as in WoW...it is a fail? Thats a good way to shrink your gaming world view.
    In Darkfall things work DIFFERENT then in meanstream MMOs. That dont mean it is bad programing or bad design. And if you dont like that, there must be about 500 other MMOs that use other ways, that you can play instead.

     

    Of course not. Diversity and new thinking is good for the genre.

    But some of DFs controls are rather..primitive. A good user interface makes any game better. And UI is one of the things that Df needs to improve.

    However could most MMOs use improvement including Wow, I don't like it's UI either so I am not trying to bash a single game. But the OP is trying to pass of a bad UI as a well thought balancing system and that is just not true.

    I personally prefer the UI from Guildwars.



     

    Yeah, you are right.

    Im just so scared people mean "make it as in WoW" when thay say the UI need to change.

  • iZakaroNiZakaroN Member UncommonPosts: 719
    Originally posted by Trenchgun


    It takes a while, experience really, to appreciate why certain things work the way they do do. For example:
    -The drag looting system forces you to be slow in looting, to prevent easy drive by kill and loot in PvP.
    -The slowly rotating task bar is not a bug but part of the design. For a game where every skill is open to you to eventually max, the only limitation put on what players can do is what spells and equipment they load into their active taskbar. So if you want to be able to switch between melee, archery, and magery all at once you're not going to have room for a lot of spells, or other useful items. And if you're a specced mage with many schools it will force you to think strategically about what kind of spells you want to have access to in each taskbar. So switching task bars is kind of like switching combat modes, which is why it is not instant.
     

     

    For the loot you are right, but you realize it after 3 monts?

    For the hotbars you are wrong because you can bind keys to every skill/spell in your hotbar.



    image


    Where themepark games try to hide that they are copying WOW, games like Mortal Online and Darkfall make no attempt to hide their inspiration
    ______\m/_____
    LordOfDarkDesire
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Originally posted by daarco

    Yeah, you are right.
    Im just so scared people mean "make it as in WoW" when thay say the UI need to change.


    Well, some might be but if everyone tried that MMOs would continue to stamp on the same point it has been since EQ and I actually think things are starting to change now.

    The devs needs to try new ideas and evolve them to make things better. Because few people actually think that MMOs are perfect right now the way they are, even if Wow has many players.

    And many ways might be a dead end, time have to show which but new thinking is really a must or MMOs will slowly die.

    I dont think DF will ever be a big game if it stays like it is now but if it evolves it can. Or someone who plays it might make an evolved version. Other games with similar or other new ideas are also showing up, hopefully will CCP give us a look on World of darkness online in august, a modern gothic horror sandbox game might also be the game that change the genre...

    Anyways, Darkfall in it's current shape is not for me but the game still had to be released, if for nothing else then to get people used to the idea that you can do a MMO in a very different way from EQ and Wow. The future is unknown so we don't know what will become of DF yet only time can show that to us but games like DF, MO and WoDO needs to be done.

    What game I play 2 years from now is not something I can even guess but it wont be Wow and I hope it wont be something close to it either. If Df turns into the game I look for I will of course play it, but they have a lot of work to do to turn it into the game I want. The UI is one of the things that will need to be improved.

  • tombear81tombear81 Member Posts: 810

     I'm afriad those two points dont make darkfall a good game. I suspect the UI was done awhile ago and left for many many development iterations.

    Now to make DF a good game address the other points about the game shall we? Oh and the points about AV practices. 

  • HolgranthHolgranth Member Posts: 380
    Originally posted by zymurgeist


    No mechanic easily circumvented is ever good design no matter what they intended. There are so many things in Darkfall that were so poorly thought out that determining what was inteded from what they just kludged together is impossible.



     

    What he said if peoople can get around it easily making the game unfair its a bad design decision.

    Dem hibbies! Dey be wrong!

  • EvasiaEvasia Member Posts: 2,827
    Originally posted by daarco


    "Everyone i know used loot macro because its a flawed loot system in Darkfall"
    Thats a pretty lame excuse. People use loot macros in every MMO. It have nothing to do with the loot system. Its about lazy people who dont have any real interest in the game they are playing! And so they cheat.



     

    Loot system is fine the CHEATERS are always wrong its no excuse becouse they suck at dragging loot to there bagpack or to lazy to drag all loot out of corpse they should go back to WoW or one of those ezmode games.

    Darkfall looting system is perfect!

    Games played:AC1-Darktide'99-2000-AC2-Darktide/dawnsong2003-2005,Lineage2-2005-2006 and now Darkfall-2009.....
    In between WoW few months AoC few months and some f2p also all very short few weeks.

  • WSIMikeWSIMike Member Posts: 5,564
    Originally posted by daarco


    So if its not as in WoW...it is a fail? Thats a good way to shrink your gaming world view.



    Who said anything about it being in WoW or not? Who said anything about WoW at all? Oh wait, that's right... you did.



    Your reason for invoking WoW in that context isn't lost on anyone, Daarco... It's a cop-out strawman argument.



    And seriously... invoking WoW comparisons as a default response to any criticism of DF is far beyond old, and has been for a while now. Maybe stop being lazy, use your brain a bit more and start developing more thoughtful and original responses?



    In Darkfall things work DIFFERENT then in meanstream MMOs. That dont mean it is bad programing or bad design. And if you dont like that, there must be about 500 other MMOs that use other ways, that you can play instead.



    So by simply being different automatically = good? Wow... that's a pretty low bar you set. No wonder some of you are so easily impressed by DF. "It's not poor implementation.. It's just different, and therefor good!" - ignorance is indeed bliss, I guess.
    I dont know what is happening to people today. Its the thing with music, cars, clothes, movies, gardens, swimming, fishing or whatever. Just because someone does something in a way you are not used to.....dont mean it is wrong.
    And just because it's different and not mainstream doesn't mean it's right or good.



    Your entire post is an extremely weak attempt at spin.

     

    "If you just step away for a sec you will clearly see all the pot holes in the road,
    and the cash shop selling asphalt..."     - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops

    image

  • StrixMaximaStrixMaxima Member UncommonPosts: 865
    Originally posted by daarco


    So if its not as in WoW...it is a fail? Thats a good way to shrink your gaming world view.
    In Darkfall things work DIFFERENT then in meanstream MMOs. That dont mean it is bad programing or bad design. And if you dont like that, there must be about 500 other MMOs that use other ways, that you can play instead.
    I dont know what is happening to people today. Its the thing with music, cars, clothes, movies, gardens, swimming, fishing or whatever. Just because someone does something in a way you are not used to.....dont mean it is wrong.
     

    Wrong is wrong, bad is bad. In DFO, WoW, Hello Kitty Online or anything else in life. A

    But let me reverse things and ask: do you think the whole taskbar thing is "brilliant design"? Yes or no and why, please.

  • cosycosy Member UncommonPosts: 3,228
    Originally posted by Trenchgun



    -The slowly rotating task bar is not a bug but part of the design. For a game where every skill is open to you to eventually max, the only limitation put on what players can do is what spells and equipment they load into their active taskbar. So if you want to be able to switch between melee, archery, and magery all at once you're not going to have room for a lot of spells, or other useful items. And if you're a specced mage with many schools it will force you to think strategically about what kind of spells you want to have access to in each taskbar. So switching task bars is kind of like switching combat modes, which is why it is not instant.
     

     

    EQ hade a better thing called memorize .. so no

    BestSigEver :P
    image

  • HotjazzHotjazz Member UncommonPosts: 742
    Originally posted by daarco


    "Everyone i know used loot macro because its a flawed loot system in Darkfall"
    Thats a pretty lame excuse. People use loot macros in every MMO. It have nothing to do with the loot system. Its about lazy people who dont have any real interest in the game they are playing! And so they cheat.

     

    Come on, everybody know Darkfalls GUI sucks donkey ass and that's not a part of the game you need to defend. What's up with the stupid weapon maneuver,  armed - half armed - unarmed . Why couldn't they just have armed - unarmed. I bet some people would defend a GUI you had to use your forehead to fire an arrow. Don't get me started on the chat system. When someone tries to talk to me ingame, I never notice. The hotbar system is so bad I bought logitech G13 Advanced gameboard.

     

    The GUI is..what do we fanboi call it... weird, different, not themepark, you'll get used to it after a few days.

     

    The looting part is fine.

     

     

  • DarthRaidenDarthRaiden Member UncommonPosts: 4,333
    Originally posted by Hotjazz

    Originally posted by daarco


    "Everyone i know used loot macro because its a flawed loot system in Darkfall"
    Thats a pretty lame excuse. People use loot macros in every MMO. It have nothing to do with the loot system. Its about lazy people who dont have any real interest in the game they are playing! And so they cheat.

     

    Come on, everybody know Darkfalls GUI sucks donkey ass and that's not a part of the game you need to defend. What's up with the stupid weapon maneuver,  armed - half armed - unarmed . Why couldn't they just have armed - unarmed. I bet some people would defend a GUI you had to use your forehead to fire an arrow. Don't get me started on the chat system. When someone tries to talk to me ingame, I never notice. The hotbar system is so bad I bought logitech G13 Advanced gameboard.

     

    The GUI is..what do we fanboi call it... weird, different, not themepark, you'll get used to it after a few days.

     

    The looting part is fine.

     

     

     

    DarkFall    : armed  - sheathed / unsheathed - unarmed

    =

    other games : armed - munition loaded / unloaded / reloaded - unarmed

    -----MY-TERMS-OF-USE--------------------------------------------------
    $OE - eternal enemy of online gaming
    -We finally WON !!!! 2011 $OE accepted that they have been fired 2005 by the playerbase and closed down ridiculous NGE !!

    "There was suppression of speech and all kinds of things between disturbing and fascistic." Raph Koster (parted $OE)

  • ScoorgeScoorge Member Posts: 142
    Originally posted by DarthRaiden

    Originally posted by Hotjazz

    Originally posted by daarco


    "Everyone i know used loot macro because its a flawed loot system in Darkfall"
    Thats a pretty lame excuse. People use loot macros in every MMO. It have nothing to do with the loot system. Its about lazy people who dont have any real interest in the game they are playing! And so they cheat.

     

    Come on, everybody know Darkfalls GUI sucks donkey ass and that's not a part of the game you need to defend. What's up with the stupid weapon maneuver,  armed - half armed - unarmed . Why couldn't they just have armed - unarmed. I bet some people would defend a GUI you had to use your forehead to fire an arrow. Don't get me started on the chat system. When someone tries to talk to me ingame, I never notice. The hotbar system is so bad I bought logitech G13 Advanced gameboard.

     

    The GUI is..what do we fanboi call it... weird, different, not themepark, you'll get used to it after a few days.

     

    The looting part is fine.

     

     

     

    DarkFall    : armed  - sheathed / unsheathed - unarmed

    =

    other games : armed - munition loaded / unloaded / reloaded - unarmed

     

    i lost a few IQ points reading this

  • RespitRespit Member Posts: 770

    Okay, I can see your point with the looting theory. But as long as the perceived slowdown is easily bypassed by a macro, then it will never work as intended.

    The theory is fine. But yet again, it's the implementation that doesn't work.

     

    Now, as far as the GUI? Considering you can hot-key practically everything, then your rotating hotbar theory is nonsense.

     

    I've said it before, the last thing I want to have to jack with in a Full Loot, FFA PvP environment, is the GUI.

     

    I may be alone in thinking like that, but I doubt it.

    DarkFall FAQ - Read then Question with Boldness

  • throckmortonthrockmorton Member Posts: 314

    Originally posted by Trenchgun
    It takes a while, experience really, to appreciate why certain things work the
    -The slowly rotating task bar is not a bug but part of the design. For a game where every skill is open to you to eventually max, the only limitation put on what players can do is what spells and equipment they load into their active taskbar. So if you want to be able to switch between melee, archery, and magery all at once you're not going to have room for a lot of spells, or other useful items. And if you're a specced mage with many schools it will force you to think strategically about what kind of spells you want to have access to in each taskbar. So switching task bars is kind of like switching combat modes, which is why it is not instant.
     

    You can make hotkeys for spots in unopened hotbars and then still use skills in them. It's the only way to play.

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