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Forced soloing.
Teiman
Member Posts: 1,319
What with the latest games not having a global chat? where is the sense of community when theres only /local or /group, but not /global?
Are the MMO part of MMORPG games dyieng? Looks like that to me.
MMORPG games are becoming absolutelly horrible and lame singleplayer games.
I like to group, socialize, make friends, chat, make jokes, try to beat a challenge with other people, build PUG's, follow leader, be a leader myself.... all this stuff is dying.
And what we get? soloing mobs 1:1. These mobs play exactly like all mobs in the latest 15 years. You get agro, mob come, poke, poke, poke, till is dead. Next mob. Repeat. Is soo repetive, you can replace the player by a oneline perl script.. not... more simple than that, you can build a mechanical clock that press the keys in sequence. Theres not challenge, theres nothing other than a repetitive chore. Where is the Role Play part on this? ... Is not even fun like a Hack and Slash RPG like Diablo,or like a FPS like Doom, where you kill hordes.
Today MMORPG games are nothing but glorified Pachinko machines.
Is there where we really want the genre to move? soloing pachinko machines with cute graphics?
Comments
While I agree with your sentiment, I don't think a lack of a global chat is the main issue.
Tried: LotR, CoH, AoC, WAR, Jumpgate Classic
Played: SWG, Guild Wars, WoW
Playing: Eve Online, Counter-strike
Loved: Star Wars Galaxies
Waiting for: Earthrise, Guild Wars 2, anything sandbox.
All of that is still completely doable without global channel and certainly without game mechanics to force people into xp grinding units. For example:
... or at least that's what the players did last week alone in UO. For well over a decade, a lack of global channel and lack of forced grouping hasn't stopped players from doing any of the things that you listed in UO.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
You know, you might just be on to something....
a little soloing never hurt anybody, there comes a time when you've got to learn to stand on your own and not rely on a buddy to do the work, and theres no better way than solo content because it can teach you how a game really works for your character and can often show how good/bad you've really been doing.
Playing polished, lag free, feature complete games is carebear. Whining about a game you hate but still play is hardcore man!
Sorry but that is turning facts upside down, because today MMos cater soloism. They are mostly made to solo a lot. And compared to past MMOs they are relatively easy and risk-less. I am neither saying they should, nor they should not. I am just saying, that it means little.
I mean, ok, there is a certain aspect that you stand on your own, as you say, yes. But generally, I see it as a degeneration, where once people defined themselves over their team, their circle of friends or their guild, today it is 1000s of lonesome riders, fleeing even the slightest need for compromise, because "everyone else sucks". Where is the great fun to do something as team? To have memories of great experiences you have done with your friends`? What is that great moment in an Online world, when you are alone and no one is there to share it?
For me it is not the question is soloing or grouping more challanging, I just find it very sad people are so much focussed on themselves and doing stuff alone. Teamwork is also demanding, and I dare say more demanding that soloing. No one bitches at you when you fail, no one dies when you forget to heal, but yourself. They stakes are much higher when others rely on you, as if you are in full control of your doings. Insofar, no, soloing IS easier. Otherwise people would not push it so much these days. Cooperation is always the harder way, but when it succeeds also the more rewarding, because such shared experiences feel way more fun than going everywhere alone. You are no safer alone, but it is much more comfortable. You define the pace alone.
All of that is still completely doable without global channel and certainly without game mechanics to force people into xp grinding units. For example:
... or at least that's what the players did last week alone in UO. For well over a decade, a lack of global channel and lack of forced grouping hasn't stopped players from doing any of the things that you listed in UO.
The problem with that is your applying one community of players against another. There isn't much that seperates the common EQ2, WoW, WAR, etc... player today. But there is a drastic difference between that group and those who started life in Asheron's Call, Ultima Online, and Everquest. Plus, you're not looking at all the facts.
For one, Ultima Online started in a near vacuum, people were forced to play it or a couple other options almost no one even knew about. A community was forced to be built and structured, around its limitations, in order to support the player base who couldn't go to another game (because they mostly didn't exist).
Two, the developers of Ultimate Online had a lot more interaction with the community early on in UO (not sure if that is true or not anymore), which is not true anymore. That helped create that global community despite not having the "global" communication aspect, as players now had common places to meet up on a regular basis as a community event. Warhammer, as a modern game with no global chat, doesn't have that. Yes, you can meet up in the major cities, but there is no real incentitive to do so as a community until you reach the end-game.
Three, are you honestly going to compare gaming group that built the UO community (which is now established and well documented) to that which would be part of a new game (which is not established and well documented)? For all their benefit, the modern MMO player base is nothing more than your average sheeple. Ultima Online was built with a gamer who defined the term, back when the people who played games actually put stock in them and rarely did it just to pass the time (not to say there weren't some that did, but the ratio is much smaller today).
Ah, I see.
So, what you're saying is that it's two very different types of players, those that were the majority during the first three MMOs and those that are the majority now?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
Ah, I see.
So, what you're saying is that it's two very different types of players, those that were the majority during the first three MMOs and those that are the majority now?
Basically. Hell, I'd bet you'd have been hard pressed to find as many total "people who played games" in the US back in 1997 as there are people who play World of Warcraft just in the US today.
Ah, I see.
So, what you're saying is that it's two very different types of players, those that were the majority during the first three MMOs and those that are the majority now?
Basically. Hell, I'd bet you'd have been hard pressed to find as many total "people who played games" in the US back in 1997 as there are people who play World of Warcraft just in the US today.
Which is why global channels are asshole conventions and as has been clearly demonstrated in other games are a totally unneeded and useless feature. Global chat is the first thing people turn off in any MMO that has it.
Wow, what a generalized statement. I know you don't realize this, but my biggest problem with Warhammer was the lack of a global chat channel. I enjoy just randomly talking with people while playing a game, and not just people I know. I happen to enjoy meeting new people and having new perspectives to discuss issues with. I quit Warhammer primarily because there were times when you'd be in an area that had absolutely no one to talk to unless you were part of some third party system (for example, a guild, which doesn't give you new people to meet after you've meet everyone in the guild).
Edit:
Oh wait, this is a solo post, so maybe I'm not supposed to admit I like the social aspect of an online game?
Oh, and in case it comes up, I did play UO back in 97, and I can't say I didn't "enjoy" the lack of a global channel, because I didn't think of it as something I was missing. Instead, I made do with other methods provided through the game to get that sense of community. Most of which don't exist in Warhammer and other modern games without a global chat channel. Plus, honestly, as I pointed out the average gamer was different back then. You'd actually get people who were supportive of efforts to work together more often, as opposed to my experience in both MMOs and non-MMOs over the past few years.
Another Edit:
By the way, doesn't UO have a Global Chat channel now?
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I don't think you quite get a lot of what you're saying. There are not hundreds of thousands of players out there anymore. There are millions of them and games trying to cater to everyone are not going to succeed very well, as we've seen with many of the newer offerings.
Global chat channels can be annoying versus regional chat. The ability for someone to "spam" those channels with junk is very high and having thousands of folks playing a game... It'll happen and does -- daily.
The variety of users is staggering. You have those who can't spend more than 30 min at their keyboard at a shot but may be online all day with short breaks -- ask a new mother about her gaming practices and "time windows" then check the "hard core" player who's online just as long but spends every last second "grinding up" a char. Look at some of the games and how you'll find the "I've got 8 alts, all max level, all in raid gear". You have the ADD crew that can't stomach doing anything more than once and if they have to kill the same mob 2 times, it's "grinding". If they have to visit the same place more than once, it's "grinding", etc...
So when a game comes out with a particular set of features, designed for one audience type and you don't like it... Sorry -- play something else. That game just isn't for you so find a different one.
You seems right. Is soo sad. I don't think MMORPG games make much sense withouth Role Playing, and withouth Grouping and Massivenes.
I remenber we use to joke about this game as .. "not more than Glorified IRC clients". Now that RPG is dead. MMO is dead. and "Glorified IRC clients" is dead, we end with "no game at all" kind of .....I don't know.. online service?.
The ethos of the MMORPGs we once played was sacrificed on the altar of making a MMO where one size fits all. Solo playing kiddies discovered MMO games and have become the dominate demographic.
Just like those who have any serious pretensions to liking music, they live in a world where pop music is the dominate genre, the biggest seller. Its sales driven by the teenie brigade. But unlike the world of music, we don’t have separate charts, or companies trying to cater for different types of music lovers. MMO companies want everyone to play their game, no matter if what the players want is incompatible with one another.
Modern MMO’s are like listening to some bastardised Bach, set to a disco beat, with a trance stylie pop chick emoting over the lyrics.
While there are some good points such as communication a ralleying point, ability to travel ,to where the group is, are all a part of grouping verses soloing.
Part of the game I am in now, is when there are groups they get together do the task then quit the group. Gone are the days of finding a great group that will follow a quest chain till the end.
Another issue is risk verses rewards. If repair costs are to high, the rewards are just not worth it, the reason to group seems to be lacking. I truely think it is more then just communication issues.
While playing a mmorpg I hate soloing all the time, but i won't go clear across the map with many different travel routes just to get in a group that lasts 20 minutes then done. Does not make sense or a good use of alloted time for playing.
i want challeging solo content,and i love forced solo in most regards
Im sick of:
- idiots relying on the group to do their job,yet they open the hands when it comes the time to share the loot.
- morons hiding in the backrow while the good pvpers stand their grounds in the frontlines,yet getting a rain of pvp points by being grouped
- Content designed for combos of classes which have synergy (like tank+healer), which would be painfully easy even if both players were just braindead retards , yet would be undoable for a solo player regardless how amazingly skillful he was
i want massive multiplayer games where:
- individual skill is the only thing that matters.
- god damn imbeciles simply cant live off the work of the group and then act like they were any good...
- you play against the rest, not with the rest.
This also builds a community, and its entertaining
sadly nowadays you can hardly find this kind of gamers, because most people have the "group disease" and pose even less threat that AI mobs.
If they are given classless chars that can do everything decently instead of excelling in one simple aspect (healer, DD, tank, ranged), they just can not manage it, and are mindlessly boring to beat
Forced group games,and specially forced group PvE games, only work to create idiotic and unskilled masses whose gospel is:
"I only have to learn to do one thing, with the right timing, and rely on the rest to do their other one thing, in their right timing."
then if asked to do something else than what they are meant to do,and be polyvalent, they will fail. fail HARD
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>i want challeging solo content,and i love forced solo in most regards
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
you can't love "forced solo". If you love it, you are not forced.
other than... well... love to see others, that don't like to solo, be forced to solo.
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> Im sick of:
>- idiots relying on the group to do their job,yet they open the hands when it comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
the time to share the loot.
The solution for this is called Peer-pression, but soloing you will never see this fixed, more like made worse. Created by soloing.
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>- morons hiding in the backrow while the good pvpers stand their grounds in the frontlines,yet getting a rain of pvp points by being grouped
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Zerg is not a team strategy, anyway. Maybe you, and your group, sould move and try to flank the enemy?. If you don't get any adventage flanking, then your game is not PVP focused.
Another strategy is to cut-down reinforcements.
Zerg vs Zerg is the most stupid strategy, If you are in a zerg, you don't have other to blame than yourself ( or misguided game design).
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>- Content designed for combos of classes which have synergy (like tank+healer), which would be painfully easy even if both players were just braindead retards , yet would be undoable for a solo player regardless how amazingly skillful he was
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Why is bad?, say... you have a skill that stun, and the assasin have a skill to oneshot stunned people. These tecniques are often easy to learn, hard to master. I don't see why are bad. Clarification, please.
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> i want massive multiplayer games where:
- individual skill is the only thing that matters.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have nothing against that. But most people want "power progression". Feel more powerfull has play. In a game with power progression, the oldbie have a "unfair" adventage over the newbie.
Is hard to level the terrain, anyway.
Even on a FPS the newbie will be *eaten* alive by oldbies.
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>- god damn imbeciles simply cant live off the work of the group and then act like they were any good...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Sounds like you have bad grouping experiences.
You can't what you ask for. A guy can be the leader, and have a healer, and do zero contribution to damage. Maybe use a hibrid class, and have a low contribution to damage and heal, and anything else. Is inposible for a game (but the most totally dumbed down) to be fair about that.
Also, what If your friend is drunk. Drunks are people too!.
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> - you play against the rest, not with the rest.
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Thats the most basic gameplay.
Theres a evolution on gameplay, from the most basic, to others more complex:
Deathmatch (what you ask)
Team deathmach ( deathmach with teams)
Capture the flag ( dm with teams and a target )
Team Fortres ( dm with teams, classes and a target )
Battlefield 2 ( dm with teams, classes, several targets, and character progression)
You can still get some "all vs all" gameplay on simplistic Hack & Slash games.
But most people want to make friends, etc..
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> This also builds a community, and its entertaining
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Maybe, I don't disagree.
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> sadly nowadays you can hardly find this kind of gamers, because most people have the "group disease" and pose even less threat that AI mobs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
You sould visit dungeons made for teams. A good dungeon can wipe any team. And sould be fun.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> Forced group games,and specially forced group PvE games, only work to create idiotic and unskilled masses whose gospel is:
"I only have to learn to do one thing, with the right timing, and rely on the rest to do their other one thing, in their right timing."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Well.... MMORPG games are much more than combat. I think you are the only one that is not drunk, and making racist jokes on ventrilo, and having a laught. Considered buing a microphone.
I think you are playing MMORPG's for completely different reasons to other people. I'll assume 99% of us play these games to group and interact, otherwise, whats the point in logging on. Yes its nice to have pvp and compete, but if you want some 1v1 go buy Street fighter or something.
Reward me for grouping but don't punish me for soloing. My $.02
-oh and I despise global chat.
If Global Chat channels were useful for more than people talking crap, spamming incorrect channels or flaming people. I'd pay attention to them... they are not in the least bit immersive or add any social aspect to the game what so ever. Even on RP servers the rules are rarely followed anyway so why have them.
One of reason I hated Tabula Rasa (and probably most ppl) was that the game felt like a huge single player game. There was no reason to Team, you could team to kill stuff faster but there was no other reason to do it. Any class could solo the game or instanced and soloing you would still get good xp to level so why bother teaming.
When I played the game I wouldn't read chat.
"you are like the world revenge on sarcasm, you know that?"
One of those great lines from The Secret World
Players are also at fault here. Players are always too focus one one aspect of the game, but tries to ignore the rest. This really kills the gameplay more the game itself.
Most will click accept the quest before reading what the NPC says, and label those conversation as "uninteresting, or meaningless" however, apparently those players will complain about not immersed in a game. How do you get immersed in a game if you don't even read the quest logs with the NPC? It is like trying to get immersed in a book by only reading and admiring the cover. In fact, I think I am going to make a thread aobut this topic.
You still get people spamming crap with global or local chat. I think the type of nonsense spoken in chat is down to the type of people, you play WoW, you'll be speaking to 12 years olds, try something like Eq1 and you dont.
Generally that's waht the first 5 or 10 levels are for, and also the tutorial part of the game. It's kind of pointless to group when people are still figuring out the GUI.
Hmm .. players are paying customers trying to have fun. The game should cater to the players, not the other way around.