Here's my personal take on what I might like to see in an RP-centric game. I'm mostly talking about fantasy, but the setting is not terribly important:
1) Classes, but many of them, including many non-combat classes that can be progressed without fighting and are integral to the world (blacksmith, farmer, wagonwright, etc). To me, having no classes seems extremely unrealistic because you end up with hundreds or thousands of "Mary Sue" characters. Most people throughout history have identified themselves with a profession and then augmented that profession through additional skills,necessities and hobbies. Even our names are often derived from ancestral professions. Sometimes that profession changes (maybe even seasonally as in the case of classic farmer/soldiers), but you don't see many expertly skilled Animal Trainer/Pilot/Farmer/Physician/Blacksmith/Archaeologist/Race Car Drivers, and that's exactly what you end up with in a no-class game. But, there's no reason skills cannot overlap to an extent. Even the most savage of warriors could still know the basics of herbal healing.
2) Few or no stupid quests that are actually tasks. Frodo didn't have to find 12 turkey gizzards for Gandalf before he could continue on his quest. I would like to see macro-quests, which intertwine with each other and take potentially months to solve, take more than one person to complete and have at least some level of impact on the world (even if minor, since the quests need to be doable by many players -- macro-communal goals, perhaps). Quests should be self-discovered (even though spoilers will make it online within minutes), and not handed out by a quest dispenser. A quest should be a quest, not a task. If you want to do tasks, you should get a job.
3) A world that tries to make sense. Take WoW. Five guards from Silvermoon could rid the Ghostlands of evil in about 40 minutes with absolutely no danger to themselves. If the land is evil or tainted, it should be EVIL. As in, I don't want to go there unless I have to sort of a thing. The "deep dark scary forest" isn't deep, dark, or scary if everybody just saunters through it. A decent example is Kithicor in EQ. At night, that was a true "deep dark scary forest" and nobody, not even relatively high level people, traveled through it without taking precautions. I know it will never make complete sense because it's a game, but developers could at least attempt to integrate a little common sense as to how stuff is laid out and presented.
4) Consensual PvP combined with world building. In a world controlled by players with no macro-NPC oversight, players would be the primary conflict (either socially or mechanically). There is zero challenge to building a kingdom if your only opponent is the environment. All you have to do is wait until your skills outpace the environment, because the environment doesn't think and never progresses without outside influence (NPCs or players). The consensual part of PvP removes some of the realism from the game, but there are a lot of RP people out there who think RP and PvP are mutually exclusive activities.
5) Consequences, both positive and negative.
6) Character customization. If I want a fat slob of a character, I should be able to make a fat slob of a character, not Hercules with a pot belly.
7) In a low-fantasy setting, the fantastic should be fantastic, not commonplace. If a unicorn runs past, it should be, "Holy shit, a unicorn!" not a pasture full of unicorns who stand there waiting patiently for somebody to come kill them to farm their horns for the mass production of magic wands.
8) No global public channels, even if there is a gimmick to make it work (like everybody is psychic, or "talking stones' or some other dross).
9) No bottomless bags of holding unless it really is a Bottomless Bag of Holding. "Hrmm, let me look through my pack. *mumbles to himself* Forty bricks of iron ore, three treasure chests, those logs of heartwood I took from that treant, three horses, my magical flying machine, thirty healing potions, two suits of extra armor... ah, here it is, my vial of Purple Worm Stomach Acid."
10) Mobs that drop creature-appropriate loot.
11) The "Valley of the 10th Level Bears" should not be followed by the "Valley of the 20th Level Bears."
--- I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave.
What about food? For instance, if a group of players decide to take up the fine art of banditry, what's to stop them from bringing in more people and taking over the server and just basically destroying everything eventually? A requirement of eating food and the infrastructures associated with it could be one control mechanism to the size and growth rate of such a group, or any settlement really. They would be hard pressed to grow into a considerable force without an efficient way of procuring large quantities of food for the troops. It would also give the opposing forces enough time to prepare against such a force, or even make an offensive move. It's a harsh mechanism and I've personally always hated it, ever since the Ultima games, but heck, whose dream isn't playing a poor farmer I ask It does open a way for new gameplay opportunities though, strategic too. But if the bandits do manage to produce the food for their troops, I for one welcome our new overlords
this Utopian idea ,sounds a lot like prema beta Planenshift with a touch of 2ndlife and a sprinkle of SimCity.
i would love to see this work but I just see phal written all over it.
you'll probabley better off trying to become a dev on Planeshift ,the basics are already in place it just needs some1 with vision and time to finish it off
To all those that say I will fail and not even try and join some team or just play some other game. Thanks, but no thanks. I appreciate the vote of confidence but I am sick of all of them and will make this. It'll take a while, but it will happen.
To ionlyneedit I can only say that I agree with most of your post and I will do my best to keep realism and a sense of "holy shit, a unicorn!" in the game. Of course, I completely disagree with your statement about how classes are mandatory in role-play. Classes are the complete opposite to role-play (and I mean true role-play, not the pseudo RP you get from the Final Fantasy games, I mean actually getting into your character, your role, and having the freedom, as we do in real life, to be anything you want) .
So no classes, ever. I will never consider them. Ever.
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
What about food? For instance, if a group of players decide to take up the fine art of banditry, what's to stop them from bringing in more people and taking over the server and just basically destroying everything eventually? A requirement of eating food and the infrastructures associated with it could be one control mechanism to the size and growth rate of such a group, or any settlement really. They would be hard pressed to grow into a considerable force without an efficient way of procuring large quantities of food for the troops. It would also give the opposing forces enough time to prepare against such a force, or even make an offensive move. It's a harsh mechanism and I've personally always hated it, ever since the Ultima games, but heck, whose dream isn't playing a poor farmer I ask It does open a way for new gameplay opportunities though, strategic too. But if the bandits do manage to produce the food for their troops, I for one welcome our new overlords
As the game will focus on realism, including combat, food and water will play a huge role in survival. Yoou need to eat or you get hungry, eventually skills and performance suffers until you die.
Long live the farmer and cook!
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
Originally posted by Arshoon Sorry, but I still have to say no. You like classes and that's great for you. My design will not be the 1-100 stuck at X amount for skills as a cap.
I like roles. Class-based or Skill-based game? I don't care. I like roles.
(I also like rolls, especially Hawaiian.)
First off, you must be new to gaming because you can't get your mind around a game that doesn't have classes and force roles
Thanks for the immediate launch into a personal attack, and one which ignores the fact that my post was mostly about roles in a skill-based system.
Third, I must disagree once again about roles. People do not need to be forced into them, that's a designers choice and one I choose not to make for RP and immersion purposes. It is not my job as a developer to decide what YOUR character can and cannot learn and do based on the class you choose.
You seem a bit close-minded in this regard. Many of the options I present allow players to be entirely free to choose their role.
First, in a skill-based game with a skill cap you can basically create whatever the hell kind of character you want, except a super soldier who can do everything. Because if you can be a super soldier there aren't different "kinds" of characters - there is one type of character, and it has exactly the abilities the developer has dictated it will have.
Hopefully I explained that in a way that makes sense: if you eliminate the idea of roles from a game, you've basically reduced the number of role variations to 1. One role defined by the developer, and dictated to the player.
Perhaps skill degredation is your limitation, and that's fine. (ie skills degrade fast enough that only the skills you actively use remain high or maxed.) But if so, realize that the resulting game would very much be role-based. Because one player is going to have high sword skill while another is going to have high Healing Magic skill, and the two players will fulfill different roles in a group.
Levels are the worst kind of forced elitism in a game. When you are X level, you are forced pretty much to have group members (if there is grouping) of other characters near or at your level.
Are you suggesting that skills in your game don't matter at all? A 25-sword skill player is equal to a 80-sword skill player?
If not, then your game still has the same sort of elitism. There's nothing inherently more "equal" in a skill-based game compared to a level-based game.
In a skill-based game you incrementally raise Sword skill to 10, and Armor skill to 10.
In a level-based game you incrementally earn XP and ding! "You're now a level 2 warrior. Sword skill increases to 10. Armor skill increases to 10."
In some ways, they're very different systems (the level 2 warrior couldn't choose to raise War Magic skill instead of Sword), but in terms of 'elitism', it's the same exact gameplay result.
If there is challenging content in your game, and there is any reason at all to attempt it (even if that reason is "just for fun") then elitism will rear its head when the 5-sword skill player tries to get into the group to kill the black dragon but everyone tells him to come back when he has 80+ sword skill.
If there is pvp in the game, levels make the game even more unfair. A level 1 character has absolutely no chance in most MMOs against a character of level 10.
Again, if skills are important at all the 5-sword skill player is probably going to stand the same chance (almost none) against a 80-sword skill player.
In the real world, even the most pathetic individual has the chance, a chance, of killing a very skilled fighter. Its slim, but it can happen, especially with ranged weapons and guns. Also, in the real world, a very skilled soldier may be able to take on many, many opponants, but a sword bow is still a sword blow and may kill you if placed right.
Well this sounds like some sort of mix of (a) stats not mattering much, (b) combat being very random -- sometimes you can just randomly lose, and/or (c) combat being very playerskill based (So I may have 10hp and you may deal 10dmg, but if I skillfully dodge away from all your attacks I could potentially widdle you down and win.)
While (c) is proven to be quite popular, (a) and (b) typically aren't.
The reasons why are hard to describe succinctly.
Basically games are about patterns and the enjoyment from them being that our minds are wired to enjoy figuring out patterns. But if a pattern is unclear (a game has stats but they don't seem to matter) it starts to break down. And if the pattern is too random (you hit all the right buttons but still die to a "pathetic individual" who got lucky) it starts to come into question whether it's a pattern at all, and not just a bunch of noise. Even if there's logic behind all that noise, if users aren't smart enough to figure it out they're not getting enjoyment out of it (because enjoyment comes from learning/figuring it out.)
To all those that say I will fail and not even try and join some team or just play some other game. Thanks, but no thanks. I appreciate the vote of confidence but I am sick of all of them and will make this. It'll take a while, but it will happen. To ionlyneedit I can only say that I agree with most of your post and I will do my best to keep realism and a sense of "holy shit, a unicorn!" in the game. Of course, I completely disagree with your statement about how classes are mandatory in role-play. Classes are the complete opposite to role-play (and I mean true role-play, not the pseudo RP you get from the Final Fantasy games, I mean actually getting into your character, your role, and having the freedom, as we do in real life, to be anything you want) . So no classes, ever. I will never consider them. Ever.
i'm not hoping you will phail , its just i think you probably will starting from scratch ,thats why i recommended you join the planeshift dev team for several reasons and not just play .
they have alot of the same idea's for a realistic role playing game as you. some of which they have got in practiseans a few others which you probably never thoought of.stamia actually effects how far you walk , run and fight ,so no running from 1 side of the realm to other ,or endless mob grind fighting for 1.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/30 and is open-source. Anyone can develop parts of the game themselves or even volunteer to contribute to overall development. A working tech demo version is playable via download from the official site and already has several hundred players.
so the structure is there giving you a true idea what starting afreash would be like ,but with a safenet and/or help.
1.PlaneShift is the first 3D MMORPG to be free for all players to play, as much as they want
2.Thousands of fans will see and enjoy what YOU made
3.It will not be your job, but your hobby, so you can really enjoy it and work in the areas you like best
4.The team is ever growing, with talented people from all over the world sharing the same dream
5.Unlike pro games, no commercial constraints such as money, time, or schedule can stop us. Only our own quality standards and talents determine how far we can go
6.We are a fair, friendly and happy team! With contributors from 11 countries currently, you can make new friends all around the world--all with talents and interests similar to your own
7.We have a unique license which we feel will ensure the success of the project and the integrity of the game we are creating
8.The core engine is released under GPL giving to it endless life and endless ability to improve.
9.You will have the chance to contribute to the fun of thousands of players
10.With our vision of free and open code and free play, Planeshift Will shake the gaming community in the next few years
dont become pigheaded or stick your head in the sand ,you wanted advice use mine .maybe you'll meet others there who want and are able to see your Utopian game though .
i'm not hoping you will phail , its just i think you probably will starting from scratch ,thats why i recommended you join the planeshift dev team for several reasons and not just play . they have alot of the same idea's for a realistic role playing game as you. some of which they have got in practiseans a few others which you probably never thoought of.stamia actually effects how far you walk , run and fight ,so no running from 1 side of the realm to other ,or endless mob grind fighting for 1. http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/30 and is open-source. Anyone can develop parts of the game themselves or even volunteer to contribute to overall development. A working tech demo version is playable via download from the official site and already has several hundred players. so the structure is there giving you a true idea what starting afreash would be like ,but with a safenet and/or help. http://www.planeshift.it/recruitment.html Here are 10 reasons why you should dedicate some of your time (or your entire life, as you prefer) to PlaneShift: 1.PlaneShift is the first 3D MMORPG to be free for all players to play, as much as they want
2.Thousands of fans will see and enjoy what YOU made
3.It will not be your job, but your hobby, so you can really enjoy it and work in the areas you like best
4.The team is ever growing, with talented people from all over the world sharing the same dream
5.Unlike pro games, no commercial constraints such as money, time, or schedule can stop us. Only our own quality standards and talents determine how far we can go
6.We are a fair, friendly and happy team! With contributors from 11 countries currently, you can make new friends all around the world--all with talents and interests similar to your own
7.We have a unique license which we feel will ensure the success of the project and the integrity of the game we are creating
8.The core engine is released under GPL giving to it endless life and endless ability to improve.
9.You will have the chance to contribute to the fun of thousands of players
10.With our vision of free and open code and free play, Planeshift Will shake the gaming community in the next few years
dont become pigheaded or stick your head in the sand ,you wanted advice use mine .maybe you'll meet others there who want and are able to see your Utopian game though . good luck either way
Thanks, I am checking it out. Perhaps I am being kind of pig-headed but one should keep their vision. Being part of a team means I give up my vision in part or most to succumb to the desires of the team leaders, though the experience I can gain if I join the development of Planeshift would be benefical to me.
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
If you are referring to me (the OP) I don't want a company to make a community for me, or even a game because they simply won't. I am going to make a game for me that others can enjoy. A game for role-players, by a role-player. All those various MMOs out there you are referring to aren't made strictly for those that like to immerse themselves in a living, breathing world. They simply want to get tough, get gear and pwn things (including other players). This has led developers to shoot for the lowest common denominator and sacrifice vision for profits.
You can't count every player as someone who wants to get tough, get gear and pwn things. I play Ryzom... I dig for mats, craft my own gear, I can't pull my mount or packers out of a bag, I have to get them out of a stable, if I leave them out there is a chance that my mount or packer could die and I would have to purchase another one. I can't port with an animal, I have to trek it across country.
There is a new owner and development is now ongoing, with events and a new rp forum.
Please don't lump every game in with those that have disappointed you.
Originally posted by Arshoon We can agree to disagree about classes, Axe. I don't like classes because they are restrictive and levels because they promote grinding. I won't have them in may game nor will I ever consider them, so yes, I am closed-minded when it comes to them.
I'm confused, because basically my last two posts have been 95% about skill-based games, and that most the problems you're trying to solve still exist in a skill-based game.
I never encouraged you to make a game with classes. I merely wanted you to realize that your game will either end up having roles (probably due to how skills degrade over time) or have super-generic characters with no playstyle variety (which is a form of the designer forcing players to play exactly the way the designer wants; which seemed to be something you didn't want.)
Shouldn't have written it out so long, sorry. :P
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
How would you regulate the RP? A RP gestapo issuing warnings, bans, etc etc?
Do you feel that the RP community that spans all MMOs is a big enough portion of the market to warrant the development of such a game? I mean, when company releases a game they want it to appeal to millions, not thousands, right?
(in addition to the above question) Do you think a game could be developed that would be appealing enough to draw RPer's from a variety of games such as WoW, AoC, DDO, LotRO, etc etc etc and gather them all in one place?
Sure, it could work. Niche games are showing up for hard core PvP players now like DF and MO so one for roleplayers isn't so far fetched.
However niche games are niche games so you can't expect more than 100K players even if the game is good. That means that you either need fans to create most of the content or something like the EU money Avi got for DF. Or some other way to get in the money.
The game would have my support, Gawd I think anyone who has played MMO's for more than ten years and just want's another solo theme park needs their haed examined.
Global communication is needed for roleplaying, instant travel is not. So you just have to fluff the global comms if need be. In LotR online we had crystals which used a form of telepathy Tolkein had talked about. The fact that Tolkein only concieved this for Elves and items lke palantirs are major secrets we brushed under the carpet. If it is good for RP, it is good for the game, that's the bottom line.
Originally posted by Scot Global communication is needed for roleplaying, instant travel is not.
I disagree on both points.
Global communication is not a roleplaying aspect unless the lore defines it as an aspect. Eve online for example, global communication has a background and a reasonable lore behind it, in World of Warcraft it does not (apart from some players inventions of their own mind). 100 years ago the world worked fine without a global communication network, why can't a game be similar? Global communication is not necessary in a roleplaying game because everyone is roleplaying so finding a roleplayer is not hard.
Instant travel likewise can be allowed in roleplaying if it is lore based, there is no reason why a 'scroll of teleportation', or a 'teleportation platform' can not have it's home in roleplaying. Of course, if the game does not allow instant travel (because there is no magical/scientific explanation) then that would be alright as well.
Roleplay is defined by lore, if the lore allows it then there is nothing against using it, likewise if the lore forbids it then there is no problem with it either. Part of roleplay is to work within the parameters that the lore sets. if the developers wish to change the lore that is already in existence then that is their prerogative.
Roleplaying is a game, not a re-enactment. The need for tools as a game comes before lore, it is very useful for people to be able to roleplay on a chat channel, so you fudge as need be.
If the game has instant travel you would hope there would be a lore explanation for it, if not it is not needed.
I agree that we must use the lore as our parameter, but what’s good for RP is an overarching concern, this is a age old conundrum role players have chewed over since the dawn of MMO’s.
Your interest is great - ideas are great - but unless you have millions of dollars/investors/etc. it's not going to happen. Now, however, if you do have these things - I would hope you remember that most mmorpgs have lost or never had the sense of hero making. What I'm saying is - I want to know that I will have that heroic feeling as I engage in something epic.
Dark Age of Camelot gave me this feeling - and, instead of going out into some weird random box of ideas - it had relevence to real world mythology, i.e., Norse, Celt, Arthurian. Man was that cool - but Mythic in their brilliance have turned their backs on her development and never focused worth a crud on viable marketing/advertising of the game.
Any chance you'd be willing to make an mmorpg that entailed a recognizable series of archetypes, i.e., the medieval fantasy classes that we all are well aware of, multiple races, and yes - politics must exist - hence, multiple realms!
Finally, seige warfare - in other words, if the enemy can build it - we should be able to destroy it. This includes towers, walls, capturable areas as well - resource points.
Games of reference:
Dark Age of Camelot's RvR system as well as their other unique pvp experience, i.e., Their RvR dungeon that one could level/group/rvr in from levels 20 (roughly) to 50...raids included. Realms would fight over this location - what a blast that was - yet another purpose to realm v realm combat.
Shadowbane's Siege System
For pve - hrm...I would suggest looking at what made Asheron's Call so fun -
Also, housing, guild housing, and might I add the graphical quality of Lord of the Rings online? lol - am I dreaming?
OP, I like your thinking and wish you the best of luck.
Unfortunately, I don't want to help you too much because your ideas overlap mine... way too much.
I firmly believe that what you want is entirely possible if designed correctly - and that will be the secret to your success or failure.
I do have two pieces of advice for you however:
1/ Build (manage) your community from day one.
This is perhaps the biggest mistake MMO Devs are making these days. Game Communities are formed well before the game even goes Beta. If you allow your community (forums) to be filled up with 1337 t4lking smacktards then you really shouldn't be surprised when your game ends up with the same folks running around PWNING everyone in game.
You community will form a standard of behaviour based on what you allow before that community even gets close to the game.
A world where you won't find one character named 'StabbyUDead' or 'HealzforU' is found.
Personally, I'd love to see just one MMO where character naming was this restrictive. No names that are sentences.
same here, im sick of seeing people use random numbers, x's and upper and lower case mixed together. running around randomly seeing xXxiPwNz45 really kills any immersion that might have been possible.
I am very disgusted by the little effort some developers put into stopping people use such non-roleplaying names, especially on what they call "roleplay servers", even reporting often has such a little effect that people can't be bothered doing it anymore.
If a game is released for roleplaying only I would be suprised if people with weird names like XXPawnUXX would want to play anyway.
I am very disgusted by the little effort some developers put into stopping people use such non-roleplaying names, especially on what they call "roleplay servers", even reporting often has such a little effect that people can't be bothered doing it anymore. If a game is released for roleplaying only I would be suprised if people with weird names like XXPawnUXX would want to play anyway.
But to release a game that is 'roleplay only' requires some clever design. Think about it.
You have to put in some real game mechanics to back up those words or the LOLZ crowd will simply come in and go on a greifing trip. They don't care. So what if their account is deleted within 30 minutes? In that 30 minutes a griefer could do a lot of damage.
FWIW i do believe it is possible. But it is definately a design challenge.
Comments
Here's my personal take on what I might like to see in an RP-centric game. I'm mostly talking about fantasy, but the setting is not terribly important:
1) Classes, but many of them, including many non-combat classes that can be progressed without fighting and are integral to the world (blacksmith, farmer, wagonwright, etc). To me, having no classes seems extremely unrealistic because you end up with hundreds or thousands of "Mary Sue" characters. Most people throughout history have identified themselves with a profession and then augmented that profession through additional skills,necessities and hobbies. Even our names are often derived from ancestral professions. Sometimes that profession changes (maybe even seasonally as in the case of classic farmer/soldiers), but you don't see many expertly skilled Animal Trainer/Pilot/Farmer/Physician/Blacksmith/Archaeologist/Race Car Drivers, and that's exactly what you end up with in a no-class game. But, there's no reason skills cannot overlap to an extent. Even the most savage of warriors could still know the basics of herbal healing.
2) Few or no stupid quests that are actually tasks. Frodo didn't have to find 12 turkey gizzards for Gandalf before he could continue on his quest. I would like to see macro-quests, which intertwine with each other and take potentially months to solve, take more than one person to complete and have at least some level of impact on the world (even if minor, since the quests need to be doable by many players -- macro-communal goals, perhaps). Quests should be self-discovered (even though spoilers will make it online within minutes), and not handed out by a quest dispenser. A quest should be a quest, not a task. If you want to do tasks, you should get a job.
3) A world that tries to make sense. Take WoW. Five guards from Silvermoon could rid the Ghostlands of evil in about 40 minutes with absolutely no danger to themselves. If the land is evil or tainted, it should be EVIL. As in, I don't want to go there unless I have to sort of a thing. The "deep dark scary forest" isn't deep, dark, or scary if everybody just saunters through it. A decent example is Kithicor in EQ. At night, that was a true "deep dark scary forest" and nobody, not even relatively high level people, traveled through it without taking precautions. I know it will never make complete sense because it's a game, but developers could at least attempt to integrate a little common sense as to how stuff is laid out and presented.
4) Consensual PvP combined with world building. In a world controlled by players with no macro-NPC oversight, players would be the primary conflict (either socially or mechanically). There is zero challenge to building a kingdom if your only opponent is the environment. All you have to do is wait until your skills outpace the environment, because the environment doesn't think and never progresses without outside influence (NPCs or players). The consensual part of PvP removes some of the realism from the game, but there are a lot of RP people out there who think RP and PvP are mutually exclusive activities.
5) Consequences, both positive and negative.
6) Character customization. If I want a fat slob of a character, I should be able to make a fat slob of a character, not Hercules with a pot belly.
7) In a low-fantasy setting, the fantastic should be fantastic, not commonplace. If a unicorn runs past, it should be, "Holy shit, a unicorn!" not a pasture full of unicorns who stand there waiting patiently for somebody to come kill them to farm their horns for the mass production of magic wands.
8) No global public channels, even if there is a gimmick to make it work (like everybody is psychic, or "talking stones' or some other dross).
9) No bottomless bags of holding unless it really is a Bottomless Bag of Holding. "Hrmm, let me look through my pack. *mumbles to himself* Forty bricks of iron ore, three treasure chests, those logs of heartwood I took from that treant, three horses, my magical flying machine, thirty healing potions, two suits of extra armor... ah, here it is, my vial of Purple Worm Stomach Acid."
10) Mobs that drop creature-appropriate loot.
11) The "Valley of the 10th Level Bears" should not be followed by the "Valley of the 20th Level Bears."
---
I ask for so little. Just fear me, love me, do as I say and I will be your slave.
What about food? For instance, if a group of players decide to take up the fine art of banditry, what's to stop them from bringing in more people and taking over the server and just basically destroying everything eventually? A requirement of eating food and the infrastructures associated with it could be one control mechanism to the size and growth rate of such a group, or any settlement really. They would be hard pressed to grow into a considerable force without an efficient way of procuring large quantities of food for the troops. It would also give the opposing forces enough time to prepare against such a force, or even make an offensive move. It's a harsh mechanism and I've personally always hated it, ever since the Ultima games, but heck, whose dream isn't playing a poor farmer I ask
It does open a way for new gameplay opportunities though, strategic too. But if the bandits do manage to produce the food for their troops, I for one welcome our new overlords 
this Utopian idea ,sounds a lot like prema beta Planenshift with a touch of 2ndlife and a sprinkle of SimCity.
i would love to see this work but I just see phal written all over it.
you'll probabley better off trying to become a dev on Planeshift ,the basics are already in place it just needs some1 with vision and time to finish it off
To all those that say I will fail and not even try and join some team or just play some other game. Thanks, but no thanks. I appreciate the vote of confidence but I am sick of all of them and will make this. It'll take a while, but it will happen.
To ionlyneedit I can only say that I agree with most of your post and I will do my best to keep realism and a sense of "holy shit, a unicorn!" in the game. Of course, I completely disagree with your statement about how classes are mandatory in role-play. Classes are the complete opposite to role-play (and I mean true role-play, not the pseudo RP you get from the Final Fantasy games, I mean actually getting into your character, your role, and having the freedom, as we do in real life, to be anything you want) .
So no classes, ever. I will never consider them. Ever.
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
As the game will focus on realism, including combat, food and water will play a huge role in survival. Yoou need to eat or you get hungry, eventually skills and performance suffers until you die.
Long live the farmer and cook!
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
I like roles. Class-based or Skill-based game? I don't care. I like roles.
(I also like rolls, especially Hawaiian.)
Thanks for the immediate launch into a personal attack, and one which ignores the fact that my post was mostly about roles in a skill-based system.
You seem a bit close-minded in this regard. Many of the options I present allow players to be entirely free to choose their role.
First, in a skill-based game with a skill cap you can basically create whatever the hell kind of character you want, except a super soldier who can do everything. Because if you can be a super soldier there aren't different "kinds" of characters - there is one type of character, and it has exactly the abilities the developer has dictated it will have.
Hopefully I explained that in a way that makes sense: if you eliminate the idea of roles from a game, you've basically reduced the number of role variations to 1. One role defined by the developer, and dictated to the player.
Perhaps skill degredation is your limitation, and that's fine. (ie skills degrade fast enough that only the skills you actively use remain high or maxed.) But if so, realize that the resulting game would very much be role-based. Because one player is going to have high sword skill while another is going to have high Healing Magic skill, and the two players will fulfill different roles in a group.
Are you suggesting that skills in your game don't matter at all? A 25-sword skill player is equal to a 80-sword skill player?
If not, then your game still has the same sort of elitism. There's nothing inherently more "equal" in a skill-based game compared to a level-based game.
In a skill-based game you incrementally raise Sword skill to 10, and Armor skill to 10.
In a level-based game you incrementally earn XP and ding! "You're now a level 2 warrior. Sword skill increases to 10. Armor skill increases to 10."
In some ways, they're very different systems (the level 2 warrior couldn't choose to raise War Magic skill instead of Sword), but in terms of 'elitism', it's the same exact gameplay result.
If there is challenging content in your game, and there is any reason at all to attempt it (even if that reason is "just for fun") then elitism will rear its head when the 5-sword skill player tries to get into the group to kill the black dragon but everyone tells him to come back when he has 80+ sword skill.
Again, if skills are important at all the 5-sword skill player is probably going to stand the same chance (almost none) against a 80-sword skill player.
Well this sounds like some sort of mix of (a) stats not mattering much, (b) combat being very random -- sometimes you can just randomly lose, and/or (c) combat being very playerskill based (So I may have 10hp and you may deal 10dmg, but if I skillfully dodge away from all your attacks I could potentially widdle you down and win.)
While (c) is proven to be quite popular, (a) and (b) typically aren't.
The reasons why are hard to describe succinctly.
Basically games are about patterns and the enjoyment from them being that our minds are wired to enjoy figuring out patterns. But if a pattern is unclear (a game has stats but they don't seem to matter) it starts to break down. And if the pattern is too random (you hit all the right buttons but still die to a "pathetic individual" who got lucky) it starts to come into question whether it's a pattern at all, and not just a bunch of noise. Even if there's logic behind all that noise, if users aren't smart enough to figure it out they're not getting enjoyment out of it (because enjoyment comes from learning/figuring it out.)
Ralph Koster's A Theory of Fun is excellent reading imo. (Chp 1 Excerpt)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
i'm not hoping you will phail , its just i think you probably will starting from scratch ,thats why i recommended you join the planeshift dev team for several reasons and not just play .
they have alot of the same idea's for a realistic role playing game as you. some of which they have got in practiseans a few others which you probably never thoought of.stamia actually effects how far you walk , run and fight ,so no running from 1 side of the realm to other ,or endless mob grind fighting for 1.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/30 and is open-source. Anyone can develop parts of the game themselves or even volunteer to contribute to overall development. A working tech demo version is playable via download from the official site and already has several hundred players.
so the structure is there giving you a true idea what starting afreash would be like ,but with a safenet and/or help.
http://www.planeshift.it/recruitment.html Here are 10 reasons why you should dedicate some of your time (or your entire life, as you prefer) to PlaneShift:
1.PlaneShift is the first 3D MMORPG to be free for all players to play, as much as they want
2.Thousands of fans will see and enjoy what YOU made
3.It will not be your job, but your hobby, so you can really enjoy it and work in the areas you like best
4.The team is ever growing, with talented people from all over the world sharing the same dream
5.Unlike pro games, no commercial constraints such as money, time, or schedule can stop us. Only our own quality standards and talents determine how far we can go
6.We are a fair, friendly and happy team! With contributors from 11 countries currently, you can make new friends all around the world--all with talents and interests similar to your own
7.We have a unique license which we feel will ensure the success of the project and the integrity of the game we are creating
8.The core engine is released under GPL giving to it endless life and endless ability to improve.
9.You will have the chance to contribute to the fun of thousands of players
10.With our vision of free and open code and free play, Planeshift Will shake the gaming community in the next few years
dont become pigheaded or stick your head in the sand ,you wanted advice use mine .maybe you'll meet others there who want and are able to see your Utopian game though .
good luck either way
We can agree to disagree about classes, Axe. I don't like classes because they are restrictive and levels because they promote grinding.
I won't have them in may game nor will I ever consider them, so yes, I am closed-minded when it comes to them.
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
Thanks, I am checking it out. Perhaps I am being kind of pig-headed but one should keep their vision. Being part of a team means I give up my vision in part or most to succumb to the desires of the team leaders, though the experience I can gain if I join the development of Planeshift would be benefical to me.
If you aren't actively part of the solution, you have no right to complain about anything.
You can't count every player as someone who wants to get tough, get gear and pwn things. I play Ryzom... I dig for mats, craft my own gear, I can't pull my mount or packers out of a bag, I have to get them out of a stable, if I leave them out there is a chance that my mount or packer could die and I would have to purchase another one. I can't port with an animal, I have to trek it across country.
There is a new owner and development is now ongoing, with events and a new rp forum.
Please don't lump every game in with those that have disappointed you.
Moonlightmist
I'm confused, because basically my last two posts have been 95% about skill-based games, and that most the problems you're trying to solve still exist in a skill-based game.
I never encouraged you to make a game with classes. I merely wanted you to realize that your game will either end up having roles (probably due to how skills degrade over time) or have super-generic characters with no playstyle variety (which is a form of the designer forcing players to play exactly the way the designer wants; which seemed to be something you didn't want.)
Shouldn't have written it out so long, sorry. :P
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Just a few questions:
How would you regulate the RP? A RP gestapo issuing warnings, bans, etc etc?
Do you feel that the RP community that spans all MMOs is a big enough portion of the market to warrant the development of such a game? I mean, when company releases a game they want it to appeal to millions, not thousands, right?
(in addition to the above question) Do you think a game could be developed that would be appealing enough to draw RPer's from a variety of games such as WoW, AoC, DDO, LotRO, etc etc etc and gather them all in one place?
Sure, it could work. Niche games are showing up for hard core PvP players now like DF and MO so one for roleplayers isn't so far fetched.
However niche games are niche games so you can't expect more than 100K players even if the game is good. That means that you either need fans to create most of the content or something like the EU money Avi got for DF. Or some other way to get in the money.
The game would have my support, Gawd I think anyone who has played MMO's for more than ten years and just want's another solo theme park needs their haed examined.
Global communication is needed for roleplaying, instant travel is not. So you just have to fluff the global comms if need be. In LotR online we had crystals which used a form of telepathy Tolkein had talked about. The fact that Tolkein only concieved this for Elves and items lke palantirs are major secrets we brushed under the carpet. If it is good for RP, it is good for the game, that's the bottom line.
I disagree on both points.
Global communication is not a roleplaying aspect unless the lore defines it as an aspect. Eve online for example, global communication has a background and a reasonable lore behind it, in World of Warcraft it does not (apart from some players inventions of their own mind). 100 years ago the world worked fine without a global communication network, why can't a game be similar? Global communication is not necessary in a roleplaying game because everyone is roleplaying so finding a roleplayer is not hard.
Instant travel likewise can be allowed in roleplaying if it is lore based, there is no reason why a 'scroll of teleportation', or a 'teleportation platform' can not have it's home in roleplaying. Of course, if the game does not allow instant travel (because there is no magical/scientific explanation) then that would be alright as well.
Roleplay is defined by lore, if the lore allows it then there is nothing against using it, likewise if the lore forbids it then there is no problem with it either. Part of roleplay is to work within the parameters that the lore sets. if the developers wish to change the lore that is already in existence then that is their prerogative.
Roleplaying is a game, not a re-enactment. The need for tools as a game comes before lore, it is very useful for people to be able to roleplay on a chat channel, so you fudge as need be.
If the game has instant travel you would hope there would be a lore explanation for it, if not it is not needed.
I agree that we must use the lore as our parameter, but what’s good for RP is an overarching concern, this is a age old conundrum role players have chewed over since the dawn of MMO’s.
Your interest is great - ideas are great - but unless you have millions of dollars/investors/etc. it's not going to happen. Now, however, if you do have these things - I would hope you remember that most mmorpgs have lost or never had the sense of hero making. What I'm saying is - I want to know that I will have that heroic feeling as I engage in something epic.
Dark Age of Camelot gave me this feeling - and, instead of going out into some weird random box of ideas - it had relevence to real world mythology, i.e., Norse, Celt, Arthurian. Man was that cool - but Mythic in their brilliance have turned their backs on her development and never focused worth a crud on viable marketing/advertising of the game.
Any chance you'd be willing to make an mmorpg that entailed a recognizable series of archetypes, i.e., the medieval fantasy classes that we all are well aware of, multiple races, and yes - politics must exist - hence, multiple realms!
Finally, seige warfare - in other words, if the enemy can build it - we should be able to destroy it. This includes towers, walls, capturable areas as well - resource points.
Games of reference:
Dark Age of Camelot's RvR system as well as their other unique pvp experience, i.e., Their RvR dungeon that one could level/group/rvr in from levels 20 (roughly) to 50...raids included. Realms would fight over this location - what a blast that was - yet another purpose to realm v realm combat.
Shadowbane's Siege System
For pve - hrm...I would suggest looking at what made Asheron's Call so fun -
Also, housing, guild housing, and might I add the graphical quality of Lord of the Rings online? lol - am I dreaming?
OP, I like your thinking and wish you the best of luck.
Unfortunately, I don't want to help you too much because your ideas overlap mine... way too much.
I firmly believe that what you want is entirely possible if designed correctly - and that will be the secret to your success or failure.
I do have two pieces of advice for you however:
1/ Build (manage) your community from day one.
This is perhaps the biggest mistake MMO Devs are making these days. Game Communities are formed well before the game even goes Beta. If you allow your community (forums) to be filled up with 1337 t4lking smacktards then you really shouldn't be surprised when your game ends up with the same folks running around PWNING everyone in game.
You community will form a standard of behaviour based on what you allow before that community even gets close to the game.
2/ Get an account in Pardus and read the Feature Request Forum Rules there. Use them.
... come to think of it... if you ever get far enough and need a Community Manager - PM me.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Find a team that doesn't care about making money and you're golden!
Do you know for certain?
Personally, I'd love to see just one MMO where character naming was this restrictive. No names that are sentences.
Personally, I'd love to see just one MMO where character naming was this restrictive. No names that are sentences.
same here, im sick of seeing people use random numbers, x's and upper and lower case mixed together. running around randomly seeing xXxiPwNz45 really kills any immersion that might have been possible.
Personally, I'd love to see just one MMO where character naming was this restrictive. No names that are sentences.
Wizard 101 by Kingsisle. It has a forum here on MMORPG.com.
These guys really did a very professional job from start to finish.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
I am very disgusted by the little effort some developers put into stopping people use such non-roleplaying names, especially on what they call "roleplay servers", even reporting often has such a little effect that people can't be bothered doing it anymore.
If a game is released for roleplaying only I would be suprised if people with weird names like XXPawnUXX would want to play anyway.
But to release a game that is 'roleplay only' requires some clever design. Think about it.
You have to put in some real game mechanics to back up those words or the LOLZ crowd will simply come in and go on a greifing trip. They don't care. So what if their account is deleted within 30 minutes? In that 30 minutes a griefer could do a lot of damage.
FWIW i do believe it is possible. But it is definately a design challenge.
Nothing says irony like spelling ideot wrong.
Civilizations Online. FPS MMO
Vault-Tec analysts have concluded that the odds of worldwide nuclear armaggeddon this decade are 17,143,762... to 1.