Im talking about realistic MMORPGS. Permadeath, unrestricted PVP, everything. If this exists please show it to me. I say games should still have skill levels, but not on such a greater scale as games like WoW. Higher levels are grandiously overpowered. Enough of the crappiest guys should be able to take down the most powerful, as a matter of balance. And as for dying, when you die you lose everything, this makes the aim of the game to survive, as it should be, and not killing endless monsters with little penalty for death.
Face of Mankind is pretty much all that. There are no NPC's, only players. PvP restricted areas are only enforced by law-enforcement players, this technically means you can attack and kill anyone anywhere, but prepare on getting arrested or hunted down and killed. All PvP isn't illegal though, different factions may have standing orders to attack other factions on sight to protect their territory and etc. orders issued by a player "general".
Economy and all items in the game which aren't base equipment are created and crafted by players.
I don't remember how skill levels worked though but personal skill and equipment were crucial if not in a big group.
Dying was eventually led to permadeath. You start with 3 or so "clones" which are used up as you die, however, you can buy more clones but they're very expensive.
You're still out of luck though since the game was shut down some years ago but a new company picked up the pieces and is planning a re-launch. The game is currently in CB.
Every game has a perma-death option, you just have to activate it. When your character dies, you delete it and create a new one. What's the matter OP, you don't have the balls to do that? I didn't think so.
I guess the OP is not aware that unrestricted PvP is as unrealistic as it gets.
There have always been restrictions in place that prevent you from going around killing other people without suffering retribution from the society around you.
The OP most likely wants consequences for PVPing. What he doesn't want is the inability to engage in PVP at all (ie Horde can't kill Horde in WOW.)
Open PVP doesn't appeal to me at all, but players who want it typically do want consequences for PVPing (checks/balances similar to real life, as you say.)
The problem is that the checks and balances are just as artificial as WoW's restrictions on PvP targets. Other games simply move the restrictions slightly in one direction or another. In the end the only actual 'consequence' that would stop someone from doing what they want in a MMO is a permament ban from the game.
It's almost like a brand new group of people came onto the gaming scene and completely redefined the game genres, people who were not originally gamers, but were able to change things with their mass numbers. Imagine if 20% of the population of the United States were to move to a country like the UK and become citizens. Now let's imagine they're far right republicans. They would effectively double the population of the country and use their voting power to completely change how the country works.
That's what happened to gaming, a bunch of foreigners took over and turned it into a mainstream profit machine. With them came mediocrity to appeal to the masses. These people have a minor time investment in gaming compared to those of us who were around playing games like X-Com, Dune 2, the Ultima series, Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, etc.... They don't know what makes a game great, and they don't realize that they're playing inferior games that are designed simply to exploit their basic human nature on the level that heroin would.
^This is one of the best posts I have EVER seen on this froum.^
Face of Mankind did NOT get picked up by a new studio. The same ONE GUY who made the original game is the same guy who is working on making the "new" one as well. He has a new publisher, but he is still the one and only guy actually working on the game itself. The majority of the people who saw the game fail the first time because this one guy could not get all the bugs out of the game are predicting that he will fail again this time for the same reasons.
Originally posted by Torik The problem is that the checks and balances are just as artificial as WoW's restrictions on PvP targets. Other games simply move the restrictions slightly in one direction or another. In the end the only actual 'consequence' that would stop someone from doing what they want in a MMO is a permament ban from the game.
It's a game. Everything's artificial, but some things more closely mimick reality.
It's not a slight change in restrictions for a game to go from "You cannot attack this player," to "Attacking this player incurs a penalty or bounty."
A permanent ban as penalty for killing another player would be kinda dumb, as the entire point of a penalty or bounty is to act as a consequence for your action, not to prevent players from killing entirely (although I'm sure a game with permanent bans for PKing would still have PKs happen now and then; some players are like that :P )
(again, open PVP games are definitely not my thing, I'm just relaying the types of rules I typically hear open PVPers ask for.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
I used to be a fan of the idea of an MMORPG.. living an alternate life, competing with other people, making friends etc.. Somehow I stumbled onto playing muds, the first mud I played was gemstone 3.. I even paid for it. But right away I could see something was missing. I went out looking for more "realism". I started playing RPI(Roleplay intensive)'s like armageddon and SoI(shadows of isulder). But found them to depend too healivy on "roleplay", often without being backed up by code. I don't know how I managed to stumble on here but I saw something that confirmed what I've known all along.. the genre sucks. But I too have searched for that one game that might keep me interested but they're just a bunch of clones, all about the next level, a rat race to the "final level". To me.. this just seems to be what kills the genre in the fist place.. this... power levelling. Its just a matter of who can log the most hours and get the L337est shit. And it doesn't matter if you die, you might lose some *gasp* exp but thats it. I think the WHOLE genre needs to be redefined, or even a new one created from the ashes. What if MMORPG's were real? What if when you died you lost EVERYTHING, no respawning, nothing. I think this would definately up the adrenaline of trying to survive. What if it wasen't who loggest the most hours and got the best levels? As theres always an end level.. and when you reach it theres nowhere else to go, this is what put me off fallout3. Im talking about realistic MMORPGS. Permadeath, unrestricted PVP, everything. If this exists please show it to me. I say games should still have skill levels, but not on such a greater scale as games like WoW. Higher levels are grandiously overpowered. Enough of the crappiest guys should be able to take down the most powerful, as a matter of balance. And as for dying, when you die you lose everything, this makes the aim of the game to survive, as it should be, and not killing endless monsters with little penalty for death. IS there anyone out there who wants a realistic, roleplaying-intensive, permadeath MMORPG?
The problem is that the checks and balances are just as artificial as WoW's restrictions on PvP targets. Other games simply move the restrictions slightly in one direction or another. In the end the only actual 'consequence' that would stop someone from doing what they want in a MMO is a permament ban from the game.
It's a game. Everything's artificial, but some things more closely mimick reality.
It's not a slight change in restrictions for a game to go from
"You cannot attack this player,"
to
"Attacking this player incurs a penalty or bounty."
A permanent ban as penalty for killing another player would be kinda dumb, as the entire point of a penalty or bounty is to act as a consequence for your action, not to prevent players from killing entirely (although I'm sure a game with permanent bans for PKing would still have PKs happen now and then; some players are like that :P )
(again, open PVP games are definitely not my thing, I'm just relaying the types of rules I typically hear open PVPers ask for.)
A penalty or 'consequence' to me would imply an attempt to discourage an action. A penalty that does not discourage someone from performing the 'bad' action again is a failure. The problem is that in MMOs no matter what kind of in-game penalty you give for something it will not completely discourage people from doing the actions that incur them. They find ways around them or ways of minimizing the impact.
Another way to look at this is to consider who you are really trying to punish: the character or the player. It is very easy to punish the character but to actually punish the player usually involves very drastic actions.
[TL;DR summary of this post: Predator still doesn't have any idea what a MUD is but still thinks he has a right to tell everyone else what to do.]
According to the OP's profile he is 19 years old. Couple that with the fact he has new account and you have it. He may have played a ton of games in his ripe old age but i doubt it. We have been trolled.
Everyone lies when websites ask them their real age. Everyone who is smart anyway. I NEVER reveal RL information about myself over the internet for security reasons and I have a fake birth date which I provide to any website that asks for one. This has proved to be a very good thing for me on more than one occasion. The OP of this thread may be the same way and if he is then he is even smarter than I gave him credit for. He could be a troll too but I'm not sure what the point of trolling by saying stuff thats totally ture would be.
Predator, you STILL do not know what a MUD is! Its NOT an MMO! If you have no cule what something is then you shouldn't be commenting on it! As the old saying goes: "Better to remain silent and let everyone think you are a fool then open your mouth and remove all doubt."
Ok so maybe your a 65 yr old grandma but since you say what he/she said is true i will ask you also. If all MMO's suck why are you here, why do you play them? To continually punish yourself or try in desperation to change the genre must be very painful. A new genre perhaps. Since the OP, who again you agree with, think RPG's in general suck, perhaps an RTS or FPS would be more to your liking.
When creating your character, you will need to select the Name, Class, Sex, Job (a.k.a profession for the character), and appearance for your character. You will now also have to choose the Mode for your gameplay experience. The modes are as followed:
Easy - This mode should only be played by those who have no experience playing MMORPGs. Level cap is 30, experience gain is 2x, and no special skills are available.
Normal - This mode is for players who have some experiences with MMORPGs. Players must reach level 40 in Normal mode before Hard mode will be made available.
Hard - Level requirements are much harder in this mode, but Status and Skill Bonuses are increased. Players who reach level 40 in Hard mode will unlock Ultimate mode.
Ultimate - Level requirements are the same as in Hard mode, but Status and Skill bonuses are increased and players can use exclusive items, skills, spells, and bonuses only available to Ultimate characters. WARNING!!! Characters who die in Ultimate mode will be deleted if not resurrected within 3 minutes. This mode is only for those players looking for the Ultimate experience.
Originally posted by Torik A penalty or 'consequence' to me would imply an attempt to discourage an action. A penalty that does not discourage someone from performing the 'bad' action again is a failure. The problem is that in MMOs no matter what kind of in-game penalty you give for something it will not completely discourage people from doing the actions that incur them. They find ways around them or ways of minimizing the impact. Another way to look at this is to consider who you are really trying to punish: the character or the player. It is very easy to punish the character but to actually punish the player usually involves very drastic actions.
Well you described exactly the sort of mechanic these players want. They don't want Open PVP to be prohibited (as it is in WOW), they want it to be possible but with appropriate discouragement.
In real life it's possible to commit crimes, but the vast majority of people don't due to the harsh penalties involved. That's the 'realism' of the poster you were originally replying to.
In a game the penalties would find the middle ground between failing to discourage players at all, and completely preventing the action.
Yes, players will attempt to minimize penalties. That's basically part of the game these players want with an Open PVP system. They want the option to be bandits with bounties on their heads (incentivizing normal players to hunt them down), who aren't able to enter certain towns because the guards immediately begin attacking them.
And it's not hard to imagine some clever ways to take the penalties further and make them even more interesting. Maybe the guards don't automatically attack you unless they recognize you. Basically players could have a Charisma/Disguise sort of stat which would govern their ability to conceal their identity as bandits, letting them do business. But guards would get a chance to recognize the player, and other players also get the same chance, and could choose to rat the bandit out to the guards if they recognized him.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Ok so maybe your a 65 yr old grandma but since you say what he/she said is true i will ask you also. If all MMO's suck why are you here, why do you play them? To continually punish yourself or try in desperation to change the genre must be very painful. A new genre perhaps. Since the OP, who again you agree with, think RPG's in general suck, perhaps an RTS or FPS would be more to your liking.
Heh, I rechecked ALL my posts in this thread. I didn't see three things you have accused me of.
First, I didn't make any statement that suggested I was a 65 year old grandma. I said that I use a fake birth date on the internet for privacy reasons. I did not mention my real age or my gender. I susupect you are letting your imagination get the better of you "grandpa" gamer.
Second, I didn't say all MMO's suck or that I even play any MMOs for that matter. At no point during this thread have I given an opinion on ANY game in fact, except for Star Wars Combine which is not an MMO and which I only mentioned because it was the only online game I could think of with Permadeath. Several other people in this thread have mentioned the names of games with Permadeath, perhaps you will attack them next and insist that they must hate all MMOs too?
Third, I also never said I agreed with the OP. I said a little bit to him about my experiences with MUD and browser based games, and my experiences in that reguard may have been similar to his. But I never once agreed with him that the entire MMORPG genre sucks or is somehow flawed. The genre hasn't been very good over the last few years, I'll admit that, but I do still remember the days when there were some decent games out there.
Nice try "Grandpa" but it seems you really have no grasp of what is being discussed here. Thanks for reminding me that on the internet the people who spend their time sitting around comparing their ages to other people are usually the least mature users there are.
I read that Doofus has a permadeath server but that sort of game play hold no appeal to me.
There's a lot of things I don't care for with many of the newer MMO's, however I've found some entertainment in several of them (at least for a few months) and I'm going strong with EVE for over 2 years now.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Its true... I haven't played a whole lot of MMO's you guys are talking about. Armageddon, Gemstone 3, and Shadows of Isulder were all text-based, roleplay-intensive games. The reason I went to these games was because I realised games like Everquest, and every other mainstream "RPG" were all the same. Just endless hours of killing MOB's, to get increasing amounts of gold, exp, and equipment. Sure at first it was fun, it was cool going fishing etc.. felt like I was really a warrior trying to survive in a simulated world. But then I realised these games were just all about who could log the most hours and get the best equipment, I was looking for something more.
And why is everyone bitching about permadeath? The reason permadeath fails so miserably in all these games is because its like everyones trying to make a non-permadeath game like everquest, and then just slapping permadeath into the equation.
You can't have a permadeath game, in a game where you die like its diablo. Maybe I'm just a roleplay nerd, I dunno. But I just can't see the fun in knowing the only reason that your leet is because youv spent the most time out of everyone else gaining exp. And then when you finally get to max.. then what? Your cool? Not really..
I want a game where training up one skill defects another, or there are realisticly implemented countermeasures. Like if your a hunter, you need to spend some time shooting things to feed yourself before you go Aragorn training with your sword. If you get badly injured and cant fight for a few real life days cuz a troll bashed your leg in, then maybe you should go fishing or some shit I dunno. And I KNOW some people just wanna hack 'n slash all day and get a bit better than someone who has better things to do, and for that, these MMO's are fine.
And as for PVP punishments.. they should also be realistic. If you try to kill some noob and a guard sees you, then if you can't kill that lone guard before he summons some buddies that might be nearby then you might find yourself wanted for a while. Of course.. if your stupid enough to venture into unlawful areas without knowing you can handle yourself then thats the price you pay. I also can't stand the fact that in most games with law reinforcement as soon as one guard sees you doing something wrong the whole town suddenly knows, this is an example of something stupid that gets you killed easily that people still stick in permadeath games.
I guess im talking more about a simulator or something with roleplay attached, where you have to act like your character. Seeing some cool-looking WoW guy running around shouting gamespeak just ruins the experience for me. Don't get me wrong I like level-based single player RPG's. But the reason I like them is because of the story, legend of the Dragoon on PS1 was awesome, and remains my fave game to this day. Playing Diablo Lan with my friend was awesome, until I went online and got godly plate of the whale and learned how to dupe and use trainers and everything just went to hell. So if its the STORY that makes single player rpg's fun should it not be the story (created by the players with in-game events) that makes MMORPG's fun? Not just killing mobs?
I started playing starcraft when I was 7.. so yeah.. I've been playing games for a while. But lately all the new games just seem like dissapointments to me, maybe I'm getting too old for games.. :O
Yes, Permadeath, what a great idea. Oh, your grandparents are dieing? Looks like you just lost 500 hours of play.
Sorry that your dog needs to go outside to lose the bathroom, but if you leave you'll probably have die, expescially being you have no bindstone, being it's realistic.
Woops, your girlfriend called? Look, you're dead and just lost years of hard work.
As you see, real life gets in the way of games. Permadeath is a stupid, stupid idea. In single-player games, you can pause and save, making permadeath an option. Otherwise, no, it's not an option at all. Because that game is probably not the only thing they will be doing and something will get in the way.
____________________________ Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online --- == RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP == --- Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online --- Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth ____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Yes, Permadeath, what a great idea. Oh, your grandparents are dieing? Looks like you just lost 500 hours of play. Sorry that your dog needs to go outside to lose the bathroom, but if you leave you'll probably have die, expescially being you have no bindstone, being it's realistic. Woops, your girlfriend called? Look, you're dead and just lost years of hard work. As you see, real life gets in the way of games. Permadeath is a stupid, stupid idea. In single-player games, you can pause and save, making permadeath an option. Otherwise, no, it's not an option at all. Because that game is probably not the only thing they will be doing and something will get in the way.
Haha yes this happens in permadeath games. The RPI muds I played were permadeath, but I don't think this reason alone is enough to doom permadeath, this is what you do. Your grandparents are dieing? Does that mean you have to get off straight away? No. Your dog needs to go to the bathroom? Is it too stupid to use the dog door? dont have one? Clean it up later. Your girlfriend called? Im assuming your mom answered the phone since you woulden't if you were playing a permadeath game, in which case you need to tell her to fuckoff (or wont she stand for it? *whoopish*, pussywhipped )
As you can see, real life only gets in the way of games -if you let it- :P
Besides in a permadeath game the aim should be to reduce player death, AI could be coded to leave you incapacitated unless its particularily nasty. Players might rather incapacitate you instead of murder for fear of law penalties etc.. unless your in the middle of nowhere.. but that adds to the thrill. So you loose all your playing time? Big deal? The point of games is that unlike real life, when you die you can start again.
The point is, a permadeath game should be more like real life. Its not THAT easy to die if your careful, stay in lawful areas etc, but if you wanna be a badass and tempt fate then the possibility of death is part of playing that character.
Yes, Permadeath, what a great idea. Oh, your grandparents are dieing? Looks like you just lost 500 hours of play. Sorry that your dog needs to go outside to lose the bathroom, but if you leave you'll probably have die, expescially being you have no bindstone, being it's realistic. Woops, your girlfriend called? Look, you're dead and just lost years of hard work. As you see, real life gets in the way of games. Permadeath is a stupid, stupid idea. In single-player games, you can pause and save, making permadeath an option. Otherwise, no, it's not an option at all. Because that game is probably not the only thing they will be doing and something will get in the way.
Haha yes this happens in permadeath games. The RPI muds I played were permadeath, but I don't think this reason alone is enough to doom permadeath, this is what you do. Your grandparents are dieing? Does that mean you have to get off straight away? No. Your dog needs to go to the bathroom? Is it too stupid to use the dog door? dont have one? Clean it up later. Your girlfriend called? Im assuming your mom answered the phone since you woulden't if you were playing a permadeath game, in which case you need to tell her to fuckoff (or wont she stand for it? *whoopish*, pussywhipped )
As you can see, real life only gets in the way of games -if you let it- :P
Besides in a permadeath game the aim should be to reduce player death, AI could be coded to leave you incapacitated unless its particularily nasty. Players might rather incapacitate you instead of murder for fear of law penalties etc.. unless your in the middle of nowhere.. but that adds to the thrill. So you loose all your playing time? Big deal? The point of games is that unlike real life, when you die you can start again.
Well lose your time.MMOS are timesinks aren't they?
Like pong i keep bouncing back and forth between games.
Yeah, well. I would rather loose all my time playing a character that I knew didn't die until that point, than loose my time playing a character that dies time and time again : /. The sense of accomplishment just fades away for me when I know that my characters accomplisments only exist because of all the times I've spent running naked back to my corpse.
Maybe my time would be better spent learning how to mod/code games so I can make the most genre-defining game of all time instead of wasting my time with these canned, mainstream, repetative mob-bashing l337 fests. Gamers should be ashamed..
Yeah, well. I would rather loose all my time playing a character that I knew didn't die until that point, than loose my time playing a character that dies time and time again : /. The sense of accomplishment just fades away for me when I know that my characters accomplisments only exist because of all the times I've spent running naked back to my corpse.
Maybe my time would be better spent learning how to mod/code games so I can make the most genre-defining game of all time instead of wasting my time with these canned, mainstream, repetative mob-bashing l337 fests. Gamers should be ashamed..
This will help not really since i know nothing of coding or programshttp://www.thefreecountry.com/ there is probably nothing helpful but give it a shot.See what it is like in the shoes of a developer.
Like pong i keep bouncing back and forth between games.
Maybe my time would be better spent learning how to mod/code games so I can make the most genre-defining game of all time instead of wasting my time with these canned, mainstream, repetative mob-bashing l337 fests. Gamers should be ashamed..
LOL. We are all waiting with bated breath for you to accomplish this. Even if you learn how to begin to make a game and win 50million in the lottery to pay for it, it will take a few years. Perhaps I'll watch the Jiffy Lube guy the next time i get the oil changed and take notes and build my own industry-defining super car while you work on your own great achievement.
I suppose I agree that the power leveling, rat race is a cancer to the genre. But keep in mind the genre did not start out like this. Ultima Online which was one of the first big MMOs and was so great it still has subs today was nothing like the rat race you described. WoW somewhat created this version, though it previously existed, WoW made it popular. Unfortunately, many companys try to clone WoW and hope for the same success, this is why we keep seeing the same stuff. Darkfall tried for something different, but clearly it did not have the financial backing to support such ideas.
Perhaps Bioware's TOR will change this mold with their new features and full voice over concept. Hopefully it doesn't become the same crappy game where you do quests to gain levels. We'll see though.
closest you can get to perma death would be playing eve and never saving your clone info...every time you die...you start out with almost no skill points!
Comments
You started up a new account just to post this? How brave=) Who are you really? If they all suck, don't play them. Problem solved.
Face of Mankind is pretty much all that. There are no NPC's, only players. PvP restricted areas are only enforced by law-enforcement players, this technically means you can attack and kill anyone anywhere, but prepare on getting arrested or hunted down and killed. All PvP isn't illegal though, different factions may have standing orders to attack other factions on sight to protect their territory and etc. orders issued by a player "general".
Economy and all items in the game which aren't base equipment are created and crafted by players.
I don't remember how skill levels worked though but personal skill and equipment were crucial if not in a big group.
Dying was eventually led to permadeath. You start with 3 or so "clones" which are used up as you die, however, you can buy more clones but they're very expensive.
You're still out of luck though since the game was shut down some years ago but a new company picked up the pieces and is planning a re-launch. The game is currently in CB.
Every game has a perma-death option, you just have to activate it. When your character dies, you delete it and create a new one. What's the matter OP, you don't have the balls to do that? I didn't think so.
The OP most likely wants consequences for PVPing. What he doesn't want is the inability to engage in PVP at all (ie Horde can't kill Horde in WOW.)
Open PVP doesn't appeal to me at all, but players who want it typically do want consequences for PVPing (checks/balances similar to real life, as you say.)
The problem is that the checks and balances are just as artificial as WoW's restrictions on PvP targets. Other games simply move the restrictions slightly in one direction or another. In the end the only actual 'consequence' that would stop someone from doing what they want in a MMO is a permament ban from the game.
^This is one of the best posts I have EVER seen on this froum.^
@Dicharek in reply to Face of Mankind suggestion:
Face of Mankind did NOT get picked up by a new studio. The same ONE GUY who made the original game is the same guy who is working on making the "new" one as well. He has a new publisher, but he is still the one and only guy actually working on the game itself. The majority of the people who saw the game fail the first time because this one guy could not get all the bugs out of the game are predicting that he will fail again this time for the same reasons.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
It's a game. Everything's artificial, but some things more closely mimick reality.
It's not a slight change in restrictions for a game to go from
"You cannot attack this player,"
to
"Attacking this player incurs a penalty or bounty."
A permanent ban as penalty for killing another player would be kinda dumb, as the entire point of a penalty or bounty is to act as a consequence for your action, not to prevent players from killing entirely (although I'm sure a game with permanent bans for PKing would still have PKs happen now and then; some players are like that :P )
(again, open PVP games are definitely not my thing, I'm just relaying the types of rules I typically hear open PVPers ask for.)
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Try Shaiya. They have Permadeath...
It's a game. Everything's artificial, but some things more closely mimick reality.
It's not a slight change in restrictions for a game to go from
"You cannot attack this player,"
to
"Attacking this player incurs a penalty or bounty."
A permanent ban as penalty for killing another player would be kinda dumb, as the entire point of a penalty or bounty is to act as a consequence for your action, not to prevent players from killing entirely (although I'm sure a game with permanent bans for PKing would still have PKs happen now and then; some players are like that :P )
(again, open PVP games are definitely not my thing, I'm just relaying the types of rules I typically hear open PVPers ask for.)
A penalty or 'consequence' to me would imply an attempt to discourage an action. A penalty that does not discourage someone from performing the 'bad' action again is a failure. The problem is that in MMOs no matter what kind of in-game penalty you give for something it will not completely discourage people from doing the actions that incur them. They find ways around them or ways of minimizing the impact.
Another way to look at this is to consider who you are really trying to punish: the character or the player. It is very easy to punish the character but to actually punish the player usually involves very drastic actions.
Yet another in the long line of "The whole genre sucks because they didn't make each game specifically for me alone".
Welcome to reality, where developers make games for the masses, not the individual.
"Because it's easier to nitpick something than to be constructive." -roach5000
According to the OP's profile he is 19 years old. Couple that with the fact he has new account and you have it. He may have played a ton of games in his ripe old age but i doubt it. We have been trolled.
Everyone lies when websites ask them their real age. Everyone who is smart anyway. I NEVER reveal RL information about myself over the internet for security reasons and I have a fake birth date which I provide to any website that asks for one. This has proved to be a very good thing for me on more than one occasion. The OP of this thread may be the same way and if he is then he is even smarter than I gave him credit for. He could be a troll too but I'm not sure what the point of trolling by saying stuff thats totally ture would be.
Predator, you STILL do not know what a MUD is! Its NOT an MMO! If you have no cule what something is then you shouldn't be commenting on it! As the old saying goes: "Better to remain silent and let everyone think you are a fool then open your mouth and remove all doubt."
Ok so maybe your a 65 yr old grandma but since you say what he/she said is true i will ask you also. If all MMO's suck why are you here, why do you play them? To continually punish yourself or try in desperation to change the genre must be very painful. A new genre perhaps. Since the OP, who again you agree with, think RPG's in general suck, perhaps an RTS or FPS would be more to your liking.
Here is the game the OP should try: Shaiya shaiya.aeriagames.com/
Creating Your First Character
When creating your character, you will need to select the Name, Class, Sex, Job (a.k.a profession for the character), and appearance for your character. You will now also have to choose the Mode for your gameplay experience. The modes are as followed:
Easy - This mode should only be played by those who have no experience playing MMORPGs. Level cap is 30, experience gain is 2x, and no special skills are available.
Normal - This mode is for players who have some experiences with MMORPGs. Players must reach level 40 in Normal mode before Hard mode will be made available.
Hard - Level requirements are much harder in this mode, but Status and Skill Bonuses are increased. Players who reach level 40 in Hard mode will unlock Ultimate mode.
Ultimate - Level requirements are the same as in Hard mode, but Status and Skill bonuses are increased and players can use exclusive items, skills, spells, and bonuses only available to Ultimate characters. WARNING!!! Characters who die in Ultimate mode will be deleted if not resurrected within 3 minutes. This mode is only for those players looking for the Ultimate experience.
<a href="http://us.playstation.com/playstation/psn/visit/profiles/P3RF3CT_GAM3R"><img src="http://fp.profiles.us.playstation.com/playstation/psn/pid/P3RF3CT_GAM3R.png"; width="230" height="155" border="0" /></a><br/><a href="http://www.us.playstation.com/psn/signup">Get your Portable ID!</a>
Well you described exactly the sort of mechanic these players want. They don't want Open PVP to be prohibited (as it is in WOW), they want it to be possible but with appropriate discouragement.
In real life it's possible to commit crimes, but the vast majority of people don't due to the harsh penalties involved. That's the 'realism' of the poster you were originally replying to.
In a game the penalties would find the middle ground between failing to discourage players at all, and completely preventing the action.
Yes, players will attempt to minimize penalties. That's basically part of the game these players want with an Open PVP system. They want the option to be bandits with bounties on their heads (incentivizing normal players to hunt them down), who aren't able to enter certain towns because the guards immediately begin attacking them.
And it's not hard to imagine some clever ways to take the penalties further and make them even more interesting. Maybe the guards don't automatically attack you unless they recognize you. Basically players could have a Charisma/Disguise sort of stat which would govern their ability to conceal their identity as bandits, letting them do business. But guards would get a chance to recognize the player, and other players also get the same chance, and could choose to rat the bandit out to the guards if they recognized him.
"What is truly revealing is his implication that believing something to be true is the same as it being true. [continue]" -John Oliver
Heh, I rechecked ALL my posts in this thread. I didn't see three things you have accused me of.
First, I didn't make any statement that suggested I was a 65 year old grandma. I said that I use a fake birth date on the internet for privacy reasons. I did not mention my real age or my gender. I susupect you are letting your imagination get the better of you "grandpa" gamer.
Second, I didn't say all MMO's suck or that I even play any MMOs for that matter. At no point during this thread have I given an opinion on ANY game in fact, except for Star Wars Combine which is not an MMO and which I only mentioned because it was the only online game I could think of with Permadeath. Several other people in this thread have mentioned the names of games with Permadeath, perhaps you will attack them next and insist that they must hate all MMOs too?
Third, I also never said I agreed with the OP. I said a little bit to him about my experiences with MUD and browser based games, and my experiences in that reguard may have been similar to his. But I never once agreed with him that the entire MMORPG genre sucks or is somehow flawed. The genre hasn't been very good over the last few years, I'll admit that, but I do still remember the days when there were some decent games out there.
Nice try "Grandpa" but it seems you really have no grasp of what is being discussed here. Thanks for reminding me that on the internet the people who spend their time sitting around comparing their ages to other people are usually the least mature users there are.
The History of the Order of The Golden Shields
"Enter if I dare?"
Sir, I'm not afraid of retards in real life. Why should I be afraid of them online?
I read that Doofus has a permadeath server but that sort of game play hold no appeal to me.
There's a lot of things I don't care for with many of the newer MMO's, however I've found some entertainment in several of them (at least for a few months) and I'm going strong with EVE for over 2 years now.
I don't really see the problem the OP speaks of.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Its true... I haven't played a whole lot of MMO's you guys are talking about. Armageddon, Gemstone 3, and Shadows of Isulder were all text-based, roleplay-intensive games. The reason I went to these games was because I realised games like Everquest, and every other mainstream "RPG" were all the same. Just endless hours of killing MOB's, to get increasing amounts of gold, exp, and equipment. Sure at first it was fun, it was cool going fishing etc.. felt like I was really a warrior trying to survive in a simulated world. But then I realised these games were just all about who could log the most hours and get the best equipment, I was looking for something more.
And why is everyone bitching about permadeath? The reason permadeath fails so miserably in all these games is because its like everyones trying to make a non-permadeath game like everquest, and then just slapping permadeath into the equation.
You can't have a permadeath game, in a game where you die like its diablo. Maybe I'm just a roleplay nerd, I dunno. But I just can't see the fun in knowing the only reason that your leet is because youv spent the most time out of everyone else gaining exp. And then when you finally get to max.. then what? Your cool? Not really..
I want a game where training up one skill defects another, or there are realisticly implemented countermeasures. Like if your a hunter, you need to spend some time shooting things to feed yourself before you go Aragorn training with your sword. If you get badly injured and cant fight for a few real life days cuz a troll bashed your leg in, then maybe you should go fishing or some shit I dunno. And I KNOW some people just wanna hack 'n slash all day and get a bit better than someone who has better things to do, and for that, these MMO's are fine.
And as for PVP punishments.. they should also be realistic. If you try to kill some noob and a guard sees you, then if you can't kill that lone guard before he summons some buddies that might be nearby then you might find yourself wanted for a while. Of course.. if your stupid enough to venture into unlawful areas without knowing you can handle yourself then thats the price you pay. I also can't stand the fact that in most games with law reinforcement as soon as one guard sees you doing something wrong the whole town suddenly knows, this is an example of something stupid that gets you killed easily that people still stick in permadeath games.
I guess im talking more about a simulator or something with roleplay attached, where you have to act like your character. Seeing some cool-looking WoW guy running around shouting gamespeak just ruins the experience for me. Don't get me wrong I like level-based single player RPG's. But the reason I like them is because of the story, legend of the Dragoon on PS1 was awesome, and remains my fave game to this day. Playing Diablo Lan with my friend was awesome, until I went online and got godly plate of the whale and learned how to dupe and use trainers and everything just went to hell. So if its the STORY that makes single player rpg's fun should it not be the story (created by the players with in-game events) that makes MMORPG's fun? Not just killing mobs?
I started playing starcraft when I was 7.. so yeah.. I've been playing games for a while. But lately all the new games just seem like dissapointments to me, maybe I'm getting too old for games.. :O
Yes, Permadeath, what a great idea. Oh, your grandparents are dieing? Looks like you just lost 500 hours of play.
Sorry that your dog needs to go outside to lose the bathroom, but if you leave you'll probably have die, expescially being you have no bindstone, being it's realistic.
Woops, your girlfriend called? Look, you're dead and just lost years of hard work.
As you see, real life gets in the way of games. Permadeath is a stupid, stupid idea. In single-player games, you can pause and save, making permadeath an option. Otherwise, no, it's not an option at all. Because that game is probably not the only thing they will be doing and something will get in the way.
____________________________
Telthalion Rohircil - Guardian - Elemandir - Lord of The Rings Online
---
== RIP == Torey - Commando - Orion - Tabula Rasa == RIP ==
---
Jordaniel Torey - Navy Megathron, Active Armor Tank - Tranquility - EVE Online
---
Torey Scott - Rifleman - Fallen Earth
____________________________
"I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but I know World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." - Albert Einstein
Haha yes this happens in permadeath games. The RPI muds I played were permadeath, but I don't think this reason alone is enough to doom permadeath, this is what you do. Your grandparents are dieing? Does that mean you have to get off straight away? No. Your dog needs to go to the bathroom? Is it too stupid to use the dog door? dont have one? Clean it up later. Your girlfriend called? Im assuming your mom answered the phone since you woulden't if you were playing a permadeath game, in which case you need to tell her to fuckoff (or wont she stand for it? *whoopish*, pussywhipped )
As you can see, real life only gets in the way of games -if you let it- :P
Besides in a permadeath game the aim should be to reduce player death, AI could be coded to leave you incapacitated unless its particularily nasty. Players might rather incapacitate you instead of murder for fear of law penalties etc.. unless your in the middle of nowhere.. but that adds to the thrill. So you loose all your playing time? Big deal? The point of games is that unlike real life, when you die you can start again.
The point is, a permadeath game should be more like real life. Its not THAT easy to die if your careful, stay in lawful areas etc, but if you wanna be a badass and tempt fate then the possibility of death is part of playing that character.
Haha yes this happens in permadeath games. The RPI muds I played were permadeath, but I don't think this reason alone is enough to doom permadeath, this is what you do. Your grandparents are dieing? Does that mean you have to get off straight away? No. Your dog needs to go to the bathroom? Is it too stupid to use the dog door? dont have one? Clean it up later. Your girlfriend called? Im assuming your mom answered the phone since you woulden't if you were playing a permadeath game, in which case you need to tell her to fuckoff (or wont she stand for it? *whoopish*, pussywhipped )
As you can see, real life only gets in the way of games -if you let it- :P
Besides in a permadeath game the aim should be to reduce player death, AI could be coded to leave you incapacitated unless its particularily nasty. Players might rather incapacitate you instead of murder for fear of law penalties etc.. unless your in the middle of nowhere.. but that adds to the thrill. So you loose all your playing time? Big deal? The point of games is that unlike real life, when you die you can start again.
Well lose your time.MMOS are timesinks aren't they?
Like pong i keep bouncing back and forth between games.
Yeah, well. I would rather loose all my time playing a character that I knew didn't die until that point, than loose my time playing a character that dies time and time again : /. The sense of accomplishment just fades away for me when I know that my characters accomplisments only exist because of all the times I've spent running naked back to my corpse.
Maybe my time would be better spent learning how to mod/code games so I can make the most genre-defining game of all time instead of wasting my time with these canned, mainstream, repetative mob-bashing l337 fests. Gamers should be ashamed..
This will help not really since i know nothing of coding or programshttp://www.thefreecountry.com/ there is probably nothing helpful but give it a shot.See what it is like in the shoes of a developer.
Like pong i keep bouncing back and forth between games.
LOL. We are all waiting with bated breath for you to accomplish this. Even if you learn how to begin to make a game and win 50million in the lottery to pay for it, it will take a few years. Perhaps I'll watch the Jiffy Lube guy the next time i get the oil changed and take notes and build my own industry-defining super car while you work on your own great achievement.
I suppose I agree that the power leveling, rat race is a cancer to the genre. But keep in mind the genre did not start out like this. Ultima Online which was one of the first big MMOs and was so great it still has subs today was nothing like the rat race you described. WoW somewhat created this version, though it previously existed, WoW made it popular. Unfortunately, many companys try to clone WoW and hope for the same success, this is why we keep seeing the same stuff. Darkfall tried for something different, but clearly it did not have the financial backing to support such ideas.
Perhaps Bioware's TOR will change this mold with their new features and full voice over concept. Hopefully it doesn't become the same crappy game where you do quests to gain levels. We'll see though.
closest you can get to perma death would be playing eve and never saving your clone info...every time you die...you start out with almost no skill points!
Theres a hardcore version of eve for ya.......
lol....
op is dillusional
wow another crying whining sand boxer. Do you want some cheese and crackers with your whine Syphex. I can get it to ya through fedex noob