California is a prime example of what's good and bad with democracy.
Citizens have the right to put any initiative on the ballot they want for the most part and if they garner enough votes, it becomes law or it gets defeated. This is great sounding on paper and during coffee klatches, but lousy in practice usually when left to citizenry or what's called "mob rule".
The problem is when the law doesn't make any sense for the majority of the people. Case in point Prop 8. Most people in California aren't gay so legalizing gay marriage wouldn't affect them as a whole but yet they voted against it. Democracy wins, but equality suffers.
Then you get into taxes. What person would volutarily vote for new taxes for themselves? Sure, if someone said "We want to build a new library, vote for Prop 334" a lot of people would check YES. But if it said right in the initiative that their taxes would go up 5% to cover the cost for it, people wouldn't vote for that. This is why when there is a shortfall crisis like now, there really isn't many options so the debt keeps climbing. Again democracy wins, but the budget suffers.
It's reminds me of what would happen if parents let their kids vote if they had to go to bed at 9:00 pm, vote to do their homework or vote to eat their broccoli. Not many kids would vote for that if they had the power. Citizens certainly don't like higher taxes, but there are times when they are needed because there is only so much cutting in a budgeted state like California you can do to keep things running smoothly.
Overall, I am actually for the citizenry ability FOR initiatives. A people should have direct access to their government as the government serves them. But when the people vote down measures that clearly need to be passed because they don't understand the larger picture, they must suffer the consequences of their own actions.
CA is sitting on too much oil to allow it to go im afraid. We're going to need CA's oil after we suck the oil dry around the world in the next few centuries
Idaho on the other hand...... sure potatos are awesome in all...
What would work better? Legalizing pot and taxing it or legalizing all the illegal immigrants and taxing them?
Why not take the Bush rout of when he was the Texas governor?
Illegal turns themselves into immigration with a clean record and $500 to help pay for the program. They get a SSN in the mail and get to pay taxes like the rest of us after a few months.
Originally posted by Pyrich Originally posted by Briansho What would work better? Legalizing pot and taxing it or legalizing all the illegal immigrants and taxing them?
Why not take the Bush rout of when he was the Texas governor?
Illegal turns themselves into immigration with a clean record and $500 to help pay for the program. They get a SSN in the mail and get to pay taxes like the rest of us after a few months.
If you're talking about this thing, Bush was president already for 4 years when it was proposed.
IMMIGRATION: New U.S. Bill Would Let the Undocumented Work and Stay By William Fisher
NEW YORK, May 15 (IPS) - Seven influential U.S. lawmakers have introduced bipartisan comprehensive immigration legislation designed to strengthen border security and enforcement of immigration laws and reduce the flow of illegal immigrants by offering them visas to work in the United States.
The bill, the ''2005 Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act'', would allow undocumented migrants who take English and civics courses and undergo medical and background checks to apply for permanent resident ''green cards'' and eventually citizenship.
The State and Homeland Security departments would work together processing the visas. Immigrants applying for the H-5A would have to demonstrate that they have a job waiting in the United States, and pay a 500-dollar processing fee. Initially, immigration would be capped at 400,000 people, roughly the number of illegal immigrants thought to enter the United States each year.
Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act ("McCain-Kennedy Bill", S. 1033) was an immigration reform bill introduced in the United States Senate on May 12, 2005 by Senators John McCain and Ted Kennedy. It was the first of its kind since the early 2000s in incorporating legalization, guest worker programs, and border enforcement components. As United States immigration debate unfolded in Congress and in the field during 2005 and 2006, the bill became a landmark legislation that was often referenced by most parties of the debate to indicate support or opposition to a certain kind of immigration reform that incorporated the three components. The bill was never voted on in the Senate.
What would work better? Legalizing pot and taxing it or legalizing all the illegal immigrants and taxing them?
Why not take the Bush rout of when he was the Texas governor?
Illegal turns themselves into immigration with a clean record and $500 to help pay for the program. They get a SSN in the mail and get to pay taxes like the rest of us after a few months.
If you're talking about this thing, Bush was president already for 4 years when it was proposed.
IMMIGRATION: New U.S. Bill Would Let the Undocumented Work and Stay
By William Fisher
NEW YORK, May 15 (IPS) - Seven influential U.S. lawmakers have introduced bipartisan comprehensive immigration legislation designed to strengthen border security and enforcement of immigration laws and reduce the flow of illegal immigrants by offering them visas to work in the United States.
The bill, the ''2005 Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act'', would allow undocumented migrants who take English and civics courses and undergo medical and background checks to apply for permanent resident ''green cards'' and eventually citizenship.
The State and Homeland Security departments would work together processing the visas. Immigrants applying for the H-5A would have to demonstrate that they have a job waiting in the United States, and pay a 500-dollar processing fee. Initially, immigration would be capped at 400,000 people, roughly the number of illegal immigrants thought to enter the United States each year.
Secure America and Orderly Immigration Act ("McCain-Kennedy Bill", S. 1033) was an immigration reform bill introduced in the United States Senate on May 12, 2005 by Senators John McCain and Ted Kennedy. It was the first of its kind since the early 2000s in incorporating legalization, guest worker programs, and border enforcement components. As United States immigration debate unfolded in Congress and in the field during 2005 and 2006, the bill became a landmark legislation that was often referenced by most parties of the debate to indicate support or opposition to a certain kind of immigration reform that incorporated the three components. The bill was never voted on in the Senate.
Died in commitee while Bush was President.
Umm... i was refering to how Texas handled it as a state... not the federal government plans for all states.
It had a timeline thats long expired and hasn't been revived since... cant remember the name, been too long
Umm... i was refering to how Texas handled it as a state... not the federal government plans for all states.
It had a timeline thats long expired and hasn't been revived since... cant remember the name, been too long
So you recommend a plan from Texas that you can't remember the name of, that's been long dead since at least a decade that got no where when it was proposed on a state level in the first place?
Just a taste of things to come for Cali..The revenues for the state are going down faster than they can account for.The budget they just passed will never fix their problems.Next yrs tax takes will be around 10 billion shy of what they need to pay for the Cali public employees retirement system.
It takes yrs for the importation of poverty from Mexico to take its toll..
China doesn't own Cali but the unions do..
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
California is bankrupt, they either have to legalize drugs to tax them for revenue or sell the entire state to China or a rich Arab country.
No, what has already happened is that the entire USA has gone into further debt to foreign interests for a much longer period of time. We are in for, at best, a Japanese style recession but even more painful. I think we are still in for a serious Greater Depression. California has to operate at some basic levels, and that money will come from the federal level since California can't provide it itself. It is already doing illegal stuff with handing out securities/security like IOUs and they are in deep for that.
___________________ Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
Originally posted by JiuJitsu I can't imagine California to be a part of China in the future...!
Alarmists.
They all said the same thing in the 80s when the Japanese came and bought a ton of real estate and discussed owning Disneyland in California, lol. They ended up selling most of the real estate back later. They did end up with a Disneyland Toyko franchise though, so I guess the doomsayers were right.
These alarmists pop up every few years, then quiet down after they buy a new car and a new "American Idol" type show pops up on television for them to watch.
Naw, they'd legalize pot and possibly every other drug under the sun before that happens.
Hell...they'll probably legalize it anyway the way things are looking with the rest of the country to follow in their footsteps (assuming all works out).
Comments
Why not both?
"A stupid idea to you is the memory of a lifetime for me"
California is a prime example of what's good and bad with democracy.
Citizens have the right to put any initiative on the ballot they want for the most part and if they garner enough votes, it becomes law or it gets defeated. This is great sounding on paper and during coffee klatches, but lousy in practice usually when left to citizenry or what's called "mob rule".
The problem is when the law doesn't make any sense for the majority of the people. Case in point Prop 8. Most people in California aren't gay so legalizing gay marriage wouldn't affect them as a whole but yet they voted against it. Democracy wins, but equality suffers.
Then you get into taxes. What person would volutarily vote for new taxes for themselves? Sure, if someone said "We want to build a new library, vote for Prop 334" a lot of people would check YES. But if it said right in the initiative that their taxes would go up 5% to cover the cost for it, people wouldn't vote for that. This is why when there is a shortfall crisis like now, there really isn't many options so the debt keeps climbing. Again democracy wins, but the budget suffers.
It's reminds me of what would happen if parents let their kids vote if they had to go to bed at 9:00 pm, vote to do their homework or vote to eat their broccoli. Not many kids would vote for that if they had the power. Citizens certainly don't like higher taxes, but there are times when they are needed because there is only so much cutting in a budgeted state like California you can do to keep things running smoothly.
Overall, I am actually for the citizenry ability FOR initiatives. A people should have direct access to their government as the government serves them. But when the people vote down measures that clearly need to be passed because they don't understand the larger picture, they must suffer the consequences of their own actions.
"TO MICHAEL!"
CA is sitting on too much oil to allow it to go im afraid. We're going to need CA's oil after we suck the oil dry around the world in the next few centuries
Idaho on the other hand...... sure potatos are awesome in all...
Why not take the Bush rout of when he was the Texas governor?
Illegal turns themselves into immigration with a clean record and $500 to help pay for the program. They get a SSN in the mail and get to pay taxes like the rest of us after a few months.
Why not take the Bush rout of when he was the Texas governor?
Illegal turns themselves into immigration with a clean record and $500 to help pay for the program. They get a SSN in the mail and get to pay taxes like the rest of us after a few months.
If you're talking about this thing, Bush was president already for 4 years when it was proposed.
Died in commitee while Bush was President.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Why not take the Bush rout of when he was the Texas governor?
Illegal turns themselves into immigration with a clean record and $500 to help pay for the program. They get a SSN in the mail and get to pay taxes like the rest of us after a few months.
If you're talking about this thing, Bush was president already for 4 years when it was proposed.
Died in commitee while Bush was President.
Umm... i was refering to how Texas handled it as a state... not the federal government plans for all states.
It had a timeline thats long expired and hasn't been revived since... cant remember the name, been too long
So you recommend a plan from Texas that you can't remember the name of, that's been long dead since at least a decade that got no where when it was proposed on a state level in the first place?
You may have something there. Sounds promising.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Just a taste of things to come for Cali..The revenues for the state are going down faster than they can account for.The budget they just passed will never fix their problems.Next yrs tax takes will be around 10 billion shy of what they need to pay for the Cali public employees retirement system.
It takes yrs for the importation of poverty from Mexico to take its toll..
China doesn't own Cali but the unions do..
Trade in material assumptions for spiritual facts and make permanent progress.
I can't imagine California to be a part of China in the future...!
No, what has already happened is that the entire USA has gone into further debt to foreign interests for a much longer period of time. We are in for, at best, a Japanese style recession but even more painful. I think we are still in for a serious Greater Depression. California has to operate at some basic levels, and that money will come from the federal level since California can't provide it itself. It is already doing illegal stuff with handing out securities/security like IOUs and they are in deep for that.
___________________
Sadly, I see storm clouds on the horizon. A faint stench of Vanguard is in the air.-Kien
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2006/12/13/
Alarmists.
They all said the same thing in the 80s when the Japanese came and bought a ton of real estate and discussed owning Disneyland in California, lol. They ended up selling most of the real estate back later. They did end up with a Disneyland Toyko franchise though, so I guess the doomsayers were right.
These alarmists pop up every few years, then quiet down after they buy a new car and a new "American Idol" type show pops up on television for them to watch.
"TO MICHAEL!"
Naw, they'd legalize pot and possibly every other drug under the sun before that happens.
Hell...they'll probably legalize it anyway the way things are looking with the rest of the country to follow in their footsteps (assuming all works out).