Except what the OP has stated is blatantly untrue. I don't know any MMO that has added ONLY end game content. Even the great WoW that everyone like to bash has added content for middle and low levels as well as end game content. Therefore I would say that there is nothing to get tired of because they are doing what you want allready. Venge Sunsoar
What content has WoW added for low-mid levels to compete with the grand platters raiders get?
The problem is that you view end-game as raiding. If you can't stand end-game perhaps that's a sign that the game has failed for you. Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with alts and people who like to play alts. However, the end game is the crucial element of mmos which if done right can add years of entertainment value. When done wrong (e.g. wow's forced raiding and pvp as the only end-game focus), you end up rerolling alts in an attempt to enjoy a game that obviously is no longer enjoyable. That's a failed mmo imo, and thus the reason I dont play wow or the wow clones.
That's my main problem with WoWish type games, there's nothing really FUN to do at end-game. PvP is fun every once in awhile, but in no way does it keep me wanting to pay $15 a month for it. I'm not subscribed to anything at the moment, because it's pretty much all WoW type shit, except for maybe EVE, but I think that game's pretty boring myself, and I just don't like having a spaceship as an avatar.
Darkfall had some promise as something new, but isn't the game for me for several reasons which I don't care to get into here.
This is a trend tha really tweaks me since I don't like raiding. It's nice to play the new non-raid instances in expansions, but I really do think they should add more mid-level instances for people that like to make alts. I don't usually play my max level characters that much other than to get gold and stuff. It would be nice to experience new things when leveling alts, instead of doing the same stuff over and over. What do you guys think?
I'd like a game that was deliberately designed for the altoholic niche:
1) 12 races (maybe 6 initially but the rest already decided and pencilled in for development)
2) each race with a melee, caster, healer and "special" class but where each race's melee / healer / caster / special class was a bit different than the other races
3) There'd be general quests for everybody but also race-class quest chains just for that specific race-class combo.
4) racial tradeskill differences, either minor racial recipes or completely different e.g dwarf blacksmiths using metal while some other race's blacksmithing used bits from mobs like beetle leg swords or something.
5) non-linear so that at every point from anout level 6+ there was always at least 3-4 different ways to level
After about level 30 the race-class combos would start to merge into common zones and dungeons so after about that level progression would become more generic but the game design would be rooted in giving the 1-30 game 48 different experiences. If it took about a month playing casually to get to level 20 an altoholic might spend a year just levelling up one class from each race to 20 then trying another combination, or like me I levelled my ranger in between trying lots of alts so he gradually got close to max level - although he never made it as the cap always went up before I made it.
That's 4-6 years of subs from altoholics from the same content. If the game was designed around this with no endgame then instead of adding new content the devs would be refreshing the old content e.g minor graphical upgrade every now and then or adding randomness to quests to increase the replayability.
Some people would hate this type of game obviously but I think there'd be enough altoholic types who'd happily sub to it for years.
The "majority" of MMO's are either still trying to fix/add shit from that should have been in the game at release or they don't add content at all. If you're playing an MMO where they actually add content or last long enough to have expansions then you should consider yourself lucky!
This is a trend tha really tweaks me since I don't like raiding. It's nice to play the new non-raid instances in expansions, but I really do think they should add more mid-level instances for people that like to make alts. I don't usually play my max level characters that much other than to get gold and stuff. It would be nice to experience new things when leveling alts, instead of doing the same stuff over and over. What do you guys think?
I'd like a game that was deliberately designed for the altoholic niche:
1) 12 races (maybe 6 initially but the rest already decided and pencilled in for development)
2) each race with a melee, caster, healer and "special" class but where each race's melee / healer / caster / special class was a bit different than the other races
3) There'd be general quests for everybody but also race-class quest chains just for that specific race-class combo.
4) racial tradeskill differences, either minor racial recipes or completely different e.g dwarf blacksmiths using metal while some other race's blacksmithing used bits from mobs like beetle leg swords or something.
5) non-linear so that at every point from anout level 6+ there was always at least 3-4 different ways to level
After about level 30 the race-class combos would start to merge into common zones and dungeons so after about that level progression would become more generic but the game design would be rooted in giving the 1-30 game 48 different experiences. If it took about a month playing casually to get to level 20 an altoholic might spend a year just levelling up one class from each race to 20 then trying another combination, or like me I levelled my ranger in between trying lots of alts so he gradually got close to max level - although he never made it as the cap always went up before I made it.
That's 4-6 years of subs from altoholics from the same content. If the game was designed around this with no endgame then instead of adding new content the devs would be refreshing the old content e.g minor graphical upgrade every now and then or adding randomness to quests to increase the replayability.
Some people would hate this type of game obviously but I think there'd be enough altoholic types who'd happily sub to it for years.
Something like that sounds like it could be pretty cool and is the main reason I'm so eagerly waiting for SWToR. It's basically 8 single player games with MMO extras tacked on.
All I know is, I'm getting real tired of the same old, "Welcome to max, meet raid."
This is a trend tha really tweaks me since I don't like raiding. It's nice to play the new non-raid instances in expansions, but I really do think they should add more mid-level instances for people that like to make alts. I don't usually play my max level characters that much other than to get gold and stuff. It would be nice to experience new things when leveling alts, instead of doing the same stuff over and over. What do you guys think?
This is why I enjoyed Sandbox, Classless, Non-level mmos.
When the developers of my game create new content its available to everyone and nothing ever becomes obsolete like old raid content and faction stuff in games like WoW and EQ2.
The "majority" of MMO's are either still trying to fix/add shit from that should have been in the game at release or they don't add content at all. If you're playing an MMO where they actually add content or last long enough to have expansions then you should consider yourself lucky!
If you played EQ2 for longer than 5mins you'd have to buy an expansion.
So what the OP really meant was "Getting tired of WoW only adding end-game content"
Since the games I play add low and mid level content every now and then and is not just about raiding when reaching cap.. (currently LotrO and DDO:Unlimited)
If WoW = The Beatles and WAR = Led Zeppelin Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
I reactivated my lotro recently, and I have noticed they have added a lot of content (I admit I am only level 32 currently). They have not only added quests, but also they have moved quest hubs to be closer to the areas the quests are for, so there is a lot less running back and fourth .
The OP seems to be more or less refering to wow. WoW, instead of adding new low level content, has made leveling 20-70 easier, to rush you past old content rather than add to it. However, they had changed a lot of low level crafting recipies which though once didn't give items with stats now do. Also, many elite quets are now non elite, so that if people can't find groups they can still complete content. Also, to work with the reduced exp some quests have had the number of mobs required to complete them has been reduced. Its not much, but meh.
I personally don't agree with their policy of pushing people past things, but saying that EVERY game does spend at least some time thinking about leveling content. Be it adding new quests to make it better, or making it easier to pass through it (again I have to say I personally hate this).
They did a load of zone revamps and quest changes, reduced group based quest/zones to solo difficulty in EQ2.
Most games do this sort of thing as they age and numbers of newer players coming into the game reduce, to help people get to where most of the server populations are (end game). In DAOC they made it so you got a free level for every level you made or something like that. Most make the leveling curve easier in the lower levels, increase quest exp etc....
The only thing I'd like to see developers do more of is bring some of the funner lower level zones and content up to high levels (making higher level instances of low level zones etc).
I think that the problem has the wrong focus, the end game is usually the focus because people have leveled up to it. Is not the problem the level?
If I am level 100, I only go to a level 20 zone for 3 reasons a) I am bored, b) To help someone, c)To meet someone. this is different however if there is no level. In games with no level you will often meet skilled players moving through all areas of a game, this is essentially because they need to for reasons of economics, social, events, or battle.
Criticising other responses:
While making other areas more accessible to high level players may seem like a good idea to a top level player they will often forget that people are constantly joining the game and experiencing the lower levels... how do they got to high levels if you make those areas high?
Changing low areas to new content is a great idea but has three problems: a) new players cant tell the difference, so effort is wasted, b) high level character come down to play and wipe the place with no effort so it is not experienced to full extent, c) most people when making alts have the aim to avoid all the levels before end game as quickly as possible.
I think that the problem has the wrong focus, the end game is usually the focus because people have leveled up to it. Is not the problem the level? If I am level 100, I only go to a level 20 zone for 3 reasons a) I am bored, b) To help someone, c)To meet someone. this is different however if there is no level. In games with no level you will often meet skilled players moving through all areas of a game, this is essentially because they need to for reasons of economics, social, events, or battle.
Criticising other responses: While making other areas more accessible to high level players may seem like a good idea to a top level player they will often forget that people are constantly joining the game and experiencing the lower levels... how do they got to high levels if you make those areas high? Changing low areas to new content is a great idea but has three problems: a) new players cant tell the difference, so effort is wasted, b) high level character come down to play and wipe the place with no effort so it is not experienced to full extent, c) most people when making alts have the aim to avoid all the levels before end game as quickly as possible.
Thats why I Said "Instanced" when refering to raising some lower content. As for you idea of no leveling, the alternative is skill-up based progression, which is just the same as leveling in the end as you have to have easier and harder mobs to occupy people, still making difference areas to seperate them, therefore same result as level based games. Or you make skill up quick, and have alot of bored people as they got to end content in one evening.
I think the way that most mmo's approach new players to older games makes sense, just help them get upto to end game in a timely fashion, but not too quickly so they have time to learn their character and its role.
I have to agree with those who are pointing out its a cold, calculated business choice. It only stands t reasons if you only have a given resource you are always gonna spend it on the area that reaches the most players. makes sense to me, why would you do it any other way? You would just be shooting yourself in the foot!
Except what the OP has stated is blatantly untrue. I don't know any MMO that has added ONLY end game content. Even the great WoW that everyone like to bash has added content for middle and low levels as well as end game content. Therefore I would say that there is nothing to get tired of because they are doing what you want allready. Venge Sunsoar
What content has WoW added for low-mid levels to compete with the grand platters raiders get?
Well just off the top of my head, there were two new races: Draenai (sp) and blood elfs with their whole starting areas.
Venge Sunsoar
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
Agreed. I got a max-lvl char in SWG, but I don't see myself doing all the boring things all the way to lvl 30, when I think you can choose to do different theme parks.
There is nothing stopping some new content being available at all levels. A mini game where you are grouped with those of similar levels or you are all made the same level ala CoH or AoC buddy system. A nice way to introduce low level guys to the forecourt of a castle in which the top level guys raid for example.
Every event could have different level requirements (like having an instance with choice as to what level you and the mobs will be inside, like 50, 60, 70, 75..). The rewards would start at level 50 and go up to the cap. That way the devs can make mid- and endgame content at the same time.
Using LOL is like saying "my argument sucks but I still want to disagree".
Way back when the day i lost it with swg was shortly after Cu .... I was in cornet and there were folks advertising for groups level yada yada yada. Before Cu anyone could be a contrubing member of a group. After levels were installed the grouping became an issue for obvious reasons as population on the servers went down or if you played at odd times.
While i get modern mmos add raids to end game and flush out end game play ( moria in lotr) there comes a time and point where more can be added to other areas. It would give a character /player a reason to go do an alt again.
Recently another patch added a trip back to Moria in lotr... I hated Moria the first time why in the heck would i want to go back there????
While any patch can break a game or code or cause havoc.... It seems to me at regular intervals that flushing out mid level play would be a reason for folks to play their alts and thus having subscription funds come back to the game.....
In lotr there is a hidden city ( not in moria) i would love an alternative leveling process of 50 - 60 that did not include Moria.....
Since most games and leveling is quest based and repetitive any area could have an npc plopped there with 10 more quests of go do this that or the other......Good point op...... I would imagine those working for end game gear as new raids are added their last set of gear becomes obsolete
Comments
What content has WoW added for low-mid levels to compete with the grand platters raiders get?
That's my main problem with WoWish type games, there's nothing really FUN to do at end-game. PvP is fun every once in awhile, but in no way does it keep me wanting to pay $15 a month for it. I'm not subscribed to anything at the moment, because it's pretty much all WoW type shit, except for maybe EVE, but I think that game's pretty boring myself, and I just don't like having a spaceship as an avatar.
Darkfall had some promise as something new, but isn't the game for me for several reasons which I don't care to get into here.
I'd like a game that was deliberately designed for the altoholic niche:
1) 12 races (maybe 6 initially but the rest already decided and pencilled in for development)
2) each race with a melee, caster, healer and "special" class but where each race's melee / healer / caster / special class was a bit different than the other races
3) There'd be general quests for everybody but also race-class quest chains just for that specific race-class combo.
4) racial tradeskill differences, either minor racial recipes or completely different e.g dwarf blacksmiths using metal while some other race's blacksmithing used bits from mobs like beetle leg swords or something.
5) non-linear so that at every point from anout level 6+ there was always at least 3-4 different ways to level
After about level 30 the race-class combos would start to merge into common zones and dungeons so after about that level progression would become more generic but the game design would be rooted in giving the 1-30 game 48 different experiences. If it took about a month playing casually to get to level 20 an altoholic might spend a year just levelling up one class from each race to 20 then trying another combination, or like me I levelled my ranger in between trying lots of alts so he gradually got close to max level - although he never made it as the cap always went up before I made it.
That's 4-6 years of subs from altoholics from the same content. If the game was designed around this with no endgame then instead of adding new content the devs would be refreshing the old content e.g minor graphical upgrade every now and then or adding randomness to quests to increase the replayability.
Some people would hate this type of game obviously but I think there'd be enough altoholic types who'd happily sub to it for years.
The "majority" of MMO's are either still trying to fix/add shit from that should have been in the game at release or they don't add content at all. If you're playing an MMO where they actually add content or last long enough to have expansions then you should consider yourself lucky!
I'd like a game that was deliberately designed for the altoholic niche:
1) 12 races (maybe 6 initially but the rest already decided and pencilled in for development)
2) each race with a melee, caster, healer and "special" class but where each race's melee / healer / caster / special class was a bit different than the other races
3) There'd be general quests for everybody but also race-class quest chains just for that specific race-class combo.
4) racial tradeskill differences, either minor racial recipes or completely different e.g dwarf blacksmiths using metal while some other race's blacksmithing used bits from mobs like beetle leg swords or something.
5) non-linear so that at every point from anout level 6+ there was always at least 3-4 different ways to level
After about level 30 the race-class combos would start to merge into common zones and dungeons so after about that level progression would become more generic but the game design would be rooted in giving the 1-30 game 48 different experiences. If it took about a month playing casually to get to level 20 an altoholic might spend a year just levelling up one class from each race to 20 then trying another combination, or like me I levelled my ranger in between trying lots of alts so he gradually got close to max level - although he never made it as the cap always went up before I made it.
That's 4-6 years of subs from altoholics from the same content. If the game was designed around this with no endgame then instead of adding new content the devs would be refreshing the old content e.g minor graphical upgrade every now and then or adding randomness to quests to increase the replayability.
Some people would hate this type of game obviously but I think there'd be enough altoholic types who'd happily sub to it for years.
Something like that sounds like it could be pretty cool and is the main reason I'm so eagerly waiting for SWToR. It's basically 8 single player games with MMO extras tacked on.
All I know is, I'm getting real tired of the same old, "Welcome to max, meet raid."
This is why I enjoyed Sandbox, Classless, Non-level mmos.
When the developers of my game create new content its available to everyone and nothing ever becomes obsolete like old raid content and faction stuff in games like WoW and EQ2.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
If you played EQ2 for longer than 5mins you'd have to buy an expansion.
So what the OP really meant was "Getting tired of WoW only adding end-game content"
Since the games I play add low and mid level content every now and then and is not just about raiding when reaching cap.. (currently LotrO and DDO:Unlimited)
If WoW = The Beatles
and WAR = Led Zeppelin
Then LotrO = Pink Floyd
I reactivated my lotro recently, and I have noticed they have added a lot of content (I admit I am only level 32 currently). They have not only added quests, but also they have moved quest hubs to be closer to the areas the quests are for, so there is a lot less running back and fourth
.
The OP seems to be more or less refering to wow. WoW, instead of adding new low level content, has made leveling 20-70 easier, to rush you past old content rather than add to it. However, they had changed a lot of low level crafting recipies which though once didn't give items with stats now do. Also, many elite quets are now non elite, so that if people can't find groups they can still complete content. Also, to work with the reduced exp some quests have had the number of mobs required to complete them has been reduced. Its not much, but meh.
I personally don't agree with their policy of pushing people past things, but saying that EVERY game does spend at least some time thinking about leveling content. Be it adding new quests to make it better, or making it easier to pass through it (again I have to say I personally hate this).
yeah compare WoW's orc/troll starting zone with the rest of the game.
those starting zones probably were not changed in like 10 years.
They did a load of zone revamps and quest changes, reduced group based quest/zones to solo difficulty in EQ2.
Most games do this sort of thing as they age and numbers of newer players coming into the game reduce, to help people get to where most of the server populations are (end game). In DAOC they made it so you got a free level for every level you made or something like that. Most make the leveling curve easier in the lower levels, increase quest exp etc....
The only thing I'd like to see developers do more of is bring some of the funner lower level zones and content up to high levels (making higher level instances of low level zones etc).
SWG Pre CU all content can be done from day one and it's done for fun and not a grind to get to the end game.
Really? Because I remember grinding skills instead of levels.
I think that the problem has the wrong focus, the end game is usually the focus because people have leveled up to it. Is not the problem the level?
If I am level 100, I only go to a level 20 zone for 3 reasons a) I am bored, b) To help someone, c)To meet someone. this is different however if there is no level. In games with no level you will often meet skilled players moving through all areas of a game, this is essentially because they need to for reasons of economics, social, events, or battle.
Criticising other responses:
While making other areas more accessible to high level players may seem like a good idea to a top level player they will often forget that people are constantly joining the game and experiencing the lower levels... how do they got to high levels if you make those areas high?
Changing low areas to new content is a great idea but has three problems: a) new players cant tell the difference, so effort is wasted, b) high level character come down to play and wipe the place with no effort so it is not experienced to full extent, c) most people when making alts have the aim to avoid all the levels before end game as quickly as possible.
Thats why I Said "Instanced" when refering to raising some lower content. As for you idea of no leveling, the alternative is skill-up based progression, which is just the same as leveling in the end as you have to have easier and harder mobs to occupy people, still making difference areas to seperate them, therefore same result as level based games. Or you make skill up quick, and have alot of bored people as they got to end content in one evening.
I think the way that most mmo's approach new players to older games makes sense, just help them get upto to end game in a timely fashion, but not too quickly so they have time to learn their character and its role.
I have to agree with those who are pointing out its a cold, calculated business choice. It only stands t reasons if you only have a given resource you are always gonna spend it on the area that reaches the most players. makes sense to me, why would you do it any other way? You would just be shooting yourself in the foot!
Yay! Someone who can actually read and understand/comprehend things! lornphoenix you are my new favorite person
Your opinion is immaterial.
What content has WoW added for low-mid levels to compete with the grand platters raiders get?
Well just off the top of my head, there were two new races: Draenai (sp) and blood elfs with their whole starting areas.
Venge Sunsoar
Agreed. I got a max-lvl char in SWG, but I don't see myself doing all the boring things all the way to lvl 30, when I think you can choose to do different theme parks.
I think this post in the EQ2 boards describes the "middle class" of MMO players and talks about their problems.
(It's the post by the user Freeliant on the page if one scrolls down)
My beef would be end game is much to min-maxed and doesn't have the same feel of the early levels.
(Or at least a compromise and yeah I wouldn't know how to address the so called "too easy" issue)
Ah well. Look forward to see what Bioware does against min-maxing like they said they'd address in PC Gamer.
AC2 Player RIP Final Death Jan 31st 2017
Refugee of Auberean
Refugee of Dereth
There is nothing stopping some new content being available at all levels. A mini game where you are grouped with those of similar levels or you are all made the same level ala CoH or AoC buddy system. A nice way to introduce low level guys to the forecourt of a castle in which the top level guys raid for example.
Every event could have different level requirements (like having an instance with choice as to what level you and the mobs will be inside, like 50, 60, 70, 75..). The rewards would start at level 50 and go up to the cap. That way the devs can make mid- and endgame content at the same time.
Way back when the day i lost it with swg was shortly after Cu .... I was in cornet and there were folks advertising for groups level yada yada yada. Before Cu anyone could be a contrubing member of a group. After levels were installed the grouping became an issue for obvious reasons as population on the servers went down or if you played at odd times.
While i get modern mmos add raids to end game and flush out end game play ( moria in lotr) there comes a time and point where more can be added to other areas. It would give a character /player a reason to go do an alt again.
Recently another patch added a trip back to Moria in lotr... I hated Moria the first time why in the heck would i want to go back there????
While any patch can break a game or code or cause havoc.... It seems to me at regular intervals that flushing out mid level play would be a reason for folks to play their alts and thus having subscription funds come back to the game.....
In lotr there is a hidden city ( not in moria) i would love an alternative leveling process of 50 - 60 that did not include Moria.....
Since most games and leveling is quest based and repetitive any area could have an npc plopped there with 10 more quests of go do this that or the other......Good point op...... I would imagine those working for end game gear as new raids are added their last set of gear becomes obsolete