Yep, anyone can do this. And I Wanna Be The Guy? Brain dead!!
Yeah, your argument is bordering on a strawman. You're not only posting a Mario hack level (I.E not an actual product) but also an indie product. I could post the FF11 boss which took, what, 20 hours to fight and still wouldn't go down. There is plenty of challenge in the MMO genre, you just have to look for it like anything else.
I'm asking clarification on the highlighted part since you're implying that homebrew and indie titles lack validity. Not just to this discussion, but in general and i totally take issue with that.
As for the FFXI thing...
Chipping away at a concrete block with a spork does not take a great deal of skill or intellectual engagement. I've seen some videos of that fight and it demonstrates, if nothing else, how lazy MMORPG developers are in designing their raid bosses. Then again they've been pulling the same "add more hit points" shit since Everquest.
Yep, anyone can do this. And I Wanna Be The Guy? Brain dead!!
Yeah, your argument is bordering on a strawman. You're not only posting a Mario hack level (I.E not an actual product) but also an indie product. I could post the FF11 boss which took, what, 20 hours to fight and still wouldn't go down. There is plenty of challenge in the MMO genre, you just have to look for it like anything else.
I'm asking clarification on the highlighted part since you're implying that homebrew and indie titles lack validity. Not just to this discussion, but in general and i totally take issue with that.
As for the FFXI thing...
Chipping away at a concrete block with a spork does not take a great deal of skill or intellectual engagement. I've seen some videos of that fight and it demonstrates, if nothing else, how lazy MMORPG developers are in designing their raid bosses. Then again they've been pulling the same "add more hit points" shit since Everquest.
About your FFXI comment Jimmy, all I can say is, wrong!!
Chipping away at a concrete block? In FFXI, having the skill to even stay alive to chip away at it require skill and understanding the system through intelligence.
If you want, send me a link of any FFXI fight video and I will show you exactly why your statements are wrong by dissect every system of every job and every details about the fight, and yes, there will be math, quite a bit of math. Why do I need to show you the math you ask? If you played the game, we can avoid half the math, but since you did not, I will need to hold your hand through it. Jimmy, you can't even beat a Even Matched mob solo judging from what you said much less a boss that is 50x harder.
Now, tell me which videos you have viewed that you consider as simply chipping away at HP, and I'll tell you why their chipping away at HP is already a display of incredible skillful playing.
Originally posted by Jimmy_Scythe Originally posted by Nadril
Yep, anyone can do this. And I Wanna Be The Guy? Brain dead!!
Yeah, your argument is bordering on a strawman. You're not only posting a Mario hack level (I.E not an actual product) but also an indie product. I could post the FF11 boss which took, what, 20 hours to fight and still wouldn't go down. There is plenty of challenge in the MMO genre, you just have to look for it like anything else.
I'm asking clarification on the highlighted part since you're implying that homebrew and indie titles lack validity. Not just to this discussion, but in general and i totally take issue with that. As for the FFXI thing... Chipping away at a concrete block with a spork does not take a great deal of skill or intellectual engagement. I've seen some videos of that fight and it demonstrates, if nothing else, how lazy MMORPG developers are in designing their raid bosses. Then again they've been pulling the same "add more hit points" shit since Everquest.
I'm not dismissing the validity of an indie title. I love indie titles (Braid is a wonderful game). However it isn't fair for you to be pulling some indie game out of your ass and comparing it against the most popular MMO. It's only fair to go look at an equally "indie" MMO in comparison to IWTBG or the Mario Impossible hack. I'm sure there are plenty that are very challenging.
That's why I said it is a borderline strawman, because it isn't a fair comparison. We all know WoW is not a very difficult game, but we aren't trying to argue that either.
It's painfully obvious we aren't going to change your mind though. I will say though that I know of no RPG that couldn't be made a lot easier with reading a strategy guide. Sure, the Bauldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights and other old school DnD influenced RPG's are very difficult games (I'm playing through NWN again right now actually) but if I were to look up how to beat a certain enemy on a FAQ it would be a lot easier. I also remember fighting some of the optional dragon bosses in BGII and they were so difficult because I didn't bother looking up what a decent thing to do against them would be.
In the end though why can't a game that isn't painstakingly difficult be enjoyable? You make it seem like you have to slam your head against a brick wall in order to really enjoy a game, when I don't think that is the case. I think PvP combat brings in enough of the challenge to the MMO genre anyways if done right (I.E not WoW). I feel like this is more of a problem with the raiding portion of games, although the article writer didn't even make it that far -- making it seem like he just doesn't like the way a person progresses in an MMO. The problem is that how are you going to design it so that you have a difficult "boss" fight conveniently interjected into your leveling? If every fight was painstakingly difficult it would be no fun to level. Likewise, though, I think players could deal with some good challenges out there now and then. Of course even then I think some games do it well enough with group dungeons and such.
Yep, anyone can do this. And I Wanna Be The Guy? Brain dead!!
Yeah, your argument is bordering on a strawman. You're not only posting a Mario hack level (I.E not an actual product) but also an indie product. I could post the FF11 boss which took, what, 20 hours to fight and still wouldn't go down. There is plenty of challenge in the MMO genre, you just have to look for it like anything else.
I'm asking clarification on the highlighted part since you're implying that homebrew and indie titles lack validity. Not just to this discussion, but in general and i totally take issue with that.
As for the FFXI thing...
Chipping away at a concrete block with a spork does not take a great deal of skill or intellectual engagement. I've seen some videos of that fight and it demonstrates, if nothing else, how lazy MMORPG developers are in designing their raid bosses. Then again they've been pulling the same "add more hit points" shit since Everquest.
Beyond giving a boss more Hits and hit harder/new Ae's etc... The mechanics and AI advancement just isnt really there at the present time, mobs have to be scripted.
I've not raided in WOW, but EQ1 and EQ2... the latter took a different approach to the more hits, by making raid mobs have different add's ae's tricks to doing them etc... But after you had killed that mob once or twice, it becomes quite a boring. I do understand your point, but I dont see any easy alternative for the developers. Alot of them are taking the easy way out by putting peoples end game focus to PVP.
Why is there so much discussion about what this guy has to say? He played an mmo for a whole whopping 20 hours, so he is obviously an expert on the field. After playing what must equate to a games tutorial levels he is more than qualified to judge every aspect of online games. He does have a scholastic background in "beer and pretzel" games after all.
Most of us that don't like MMORPGs feel that we have to put that much time in to give a "fair shake." The most common scenario is that our MMO addicted friend suggests a game to us and then, because our friend is so many levels above us that he can't play with us or even show us around, we play the game until we get feel for the game before announcing that it isn't our thing. It's at this point that our OCS afflicted pal goes into defensive nerd rage and tells us that we didn't spend enough time In the game to give a fair chance.
What? You only played it for 200 hours? Dude, that's just the tip if of the iceburg!!!!
Yeah, as if I want to sit through another 200 hours or more to get to the fun part....
You totally missed my point. If you take longer trying out Game A than you would take trying out a normal game (like Mario), it's your own fault. You can't get mad at others about it.
Unless you're particularly vulnerable to peer pressure, the fact that your friends say it gets better 200 hours in shouldn't matter.
And you're totally missing the point that the author of that article made a sincere effort to enjoy an MMORPG and couldn't. Most of us dig the idea of an MMORPG. Most of us really want to like MMORPGs. Unfortunately, only those with self diagnosed Asperger's Syndrom (read social retards with superiority complexs) can like MMORPGs.
The last sentence takes away all your credibility. Claiming everyone who enjoys MMORPGs is social retard makes you look as a retard as well you know.
MMOs are only exciting and fun when your goin through that content for the first time, but after that 90% or more of your time is spent bored and excited for new content that is only exciting for a day or so itself.. MMO genre is fueled by broken promises.
ppl only keep playing b/c of the promised exciting future content, and it has just repeated itself over 'n over..currently in a HC wow guild, and i promised myself that if they release just another regular content expansion next, i'm finished..but if it's actually game changing and exciting i'll stay.. i can't handle this everlasting pace of the same crap.
Anyone that plays anything outside of WoW, or thinks another MMO is better then wow is really just not bein honest with themself..i've played it all, and nothing comes close to bein as polished or worth the investment..not a fanboy..just a fan of good games.
hopefully i'll hear something bout the expansion @ blizzcon, so i can decide earlier..
Comments
Yeah, your argument is bordering on a strawman. You're not only posting a Mario hack level (I.E not an actual product) but also an indie product. I could post the FF11 boss which took, what, 20 hours to fight and still wouldn't go down. There is plenty of challenge in the MMO genre, you just have to look for it like anything else.
I'm asking clarification on the highlighted part since you're implying that homebrew and indie titles lack validity. Not just to this discussion, but in general and i totally take issue with that.
As for the FFXI thing...
Chipping away at a concrete block with a spork does not take a great deal of skill or intellectual engagement. I've seen some videos of that fight and it demonstrates, if nothing else, how lazy MMORPG developers are in designing their raid bosses. Then again they've been pulling the same "add more hit points" shit since Everquest.
Missfire!
Yeah, your argument is bordering on a strawman. You're not only posting a Mario hack level (I.E not an actual product) but also an indie product. I could post the FF11 boss which took, what, 20 hours to fight and still wouldn't go down. There is plenty of challenge in the MMO genre, you just have to look for it like anything else.
I'm asking clarification on the highlighted part since you're implying that homebrew and indie titles lack validity. Not just to this discussion, but in general and i totally take issue with that.
As for the FFXI thing...
Chipping away at a concrete block with a spork does not take a great deal of skill or intellectual engagement. I've seen some videos of that fight and it demonstrates, if nothing else, how lazy MMORPG developers are in designing their raid bosses. Then again they've been pulling the same "add more hit points" shit since Everquest.
About your FFXI comment Jimmy, all I can say is, wrong!!
Chipping away at a concrete block? In FFXI, having the skill to even stay alive to chip away at it require skill and understanding the system through intelligence.
If you want, send me a link of any FFXI fight video and I will show you exactly why your statements are wrong by dissect every system of every job and every details about the fight, and yes, there will be math, quite a bit of math. Why do I need to show you the math you ask? If you played the game, we can avoid half the math, but since you did not, I will need to hold your hand through it. Jimmy, you can't even beat a Even Matched mob solo judging from what you said much less a boss that is 50x harder.
Now, tell me which videos you have viewed that you consider as simply chipping away at HP, and I'll tell you why their chipping away at HP is already a display of incredible skillful playing.
Yeah, your argument is bordering on a strawman. You're not only posting a Mario hack level (I.E not an actual product) but also an indie product. I could post the FF11 boss which took, what, 20 hours to fight and still wouldn't go down. There is plenty of challenge in the MMO genre, you just have to look for it like anything else.
I'm asking clarification on the highlighted part since you're implying that homebrew and indie titles lack validity. Not just to this discussion, but in general and i totally take issue with that.
As for the FFXI thing...
Chipping away at a concrete block with a spork does not take a great deal of skill or intellectual engagement. I've seen some videos of that fight and it demonstrates, if nothing else, how lazy MMORPG developers are in designing their raid bosses. Then again they've been pulling the same "add more hit points" shit since Everquest.
I'm not dismissing the validity of an indie title. I love indie titles (Braid is a wonderful game). However it isn't fair for you to be pulling some indie game out of your ass and comparing it against the most popular MMO. It's only fair to go look at an equally "indie" MMO in comparison to IWTBG or the Mario Impossible hack. I'm sure there are plenty that are very challenging.
That's why I said it is a borderline strawman, because it isn't a fair comparison. We all know WoW is not a very difficult game, but we aren't trying to argue that either.
It's painfully obvious we aren't going to change your mind though. I will say though that I know of no RPG that couldn't be made a lot easier with reading a strategy guide. Sure, the Bauldur's Gate series, Neverwinter Nights and other old school DnD influenced RPG's are very difficult games (I'm playing through NWN again right now actually) but if I were to look up how to beat a certain enemy on a FAQ it would be a lot easier. I also remember fighting some of the optional dragon bosses in BGII and they were so difficult because I didn't bother looking up what a decent thing to do against them would be.
In the end though why can't a game that isn't painstakingly difficult be enjoyable? You make it seem like you have to slam your head against a brick wall in order to really enjoy a game, when I don't think that is the case. I think PvP combat brings in enough of the challenge to the MMO genre anyways if done right (I.E not WoW). I feel like this is more of a problem with the raiding portion of games, although the article writer didn't even make it that far -- making it seem like he just doesn't like the way a person progresses in an MMO. The problem is that how are you going to design it so that you have a difficult "boss" fight conveniently interjected into your leveling? If every fight was painstakingly difficult it would be no fun to level. Likewise, though, I think players could deal with some good challenges out there now and then. Of course even then I think some games do it well enough with group dungeons and such.
Yeah, your argument is bordering on a strawman. You're not only posting a Mario hack level (I.E not an actual product) but also an indie product. I could post the FF11 boss which took, what, 20 hours to fight and still wouldn't go down. There is plenty of challenge in the MMO genre, you just have to look for it like anything else.
I'm asking clarification on the highlighted part since you're implying that homebrew and indie titles lack validity. Not just to this discussion, but in general and i totally take issue with that.
As for the FFXI thing...
Chipping away at a concrete block with a spork does not take a great deal of skill or intellectual engagement. I've seen some videos of that fight and it demonstrates, if nothing else, how lazy MMORPG developers are in designing their raid bosses. Then again they've been pulling the same "add more hit points" shit since Everquest.
Beyond giving a boss more Hits and hit harder/new Ae's etc... The mechanics and AI advancement just isnt really there at the present time, mobs have to be scripted.
I've not raided in WOW, but EQ1 and EQ2... the latter took a different approach to the more hits, by making raid mobs have different add's ae's tricks to doing them etc... But after you had killed that mob once or twice, it becomes quite a boring. I do understand your point, but I dont see any easy alternative for the developers. Alot of them are taking the easy way out by putting peoples end game focus to PVP.
Why is there so much discussion about what this guy has to say? He played an mmo for a whole whopping 20 hours, so he is obviously an expert on the field. After playing what must equate to a games tutorial levels he is more than qualified to judge every aspect of online games. He does have a scholastic background in "beer and pretzel" games after all.
You totally missed my point. If you take longer trying out Game A than you would take trying out a normal game (like Mario), it's your own fault. You can't get mad at others about it.
Unless you're particularly vulnerable to peer pressure, the fact that your friends say it gets better 200 hours in shouldn't matter.
And you're totally missing the point that the author of that article made a sincere effort to enjoy an MMORPG and couldn't. Most of us dig the idea of an MMORPG. Most of us really want to like MMORPGs. Unfortunately, only those with self diagnosed Asperger's Syndrom (read social retards with superiority complexs) can like MMORPGs.
The last sentence takes away all your credibility. Claiming everyone who enjoys MMORPGs is social retard makes you look as a retard as well you know.
'Most powerful is he who controls his own power.'
/agreed...
MMOs are only exciting and fun when your goin through that content for the first time, but after that 90% or more of your time is spent bored and excited for new content that is only exciting for a day or so itself.. MMO genre is fueled by broken promises.
ppl only keep playing b/c of the promised exciting future content, and it has just repeated itself over 'n over..currently in a HC wow guild, and i promised myself that if they release just another regular content expansion next, i'm finished..but if it's actually game changing and exciting i'll stay.. i can't handle this everlasting pace of the same crap.
Anyone that plays anything outside of WoW, or thinks another MMO is better then wow is really just not bein honest with themself..i've played it all, and nothing comes close to bein as polished or worth the investment..not a fanboy..just a fan of good games.
hopefully i'll hear something bout the expansion @ blizzcon, so i can decide earlier..