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The weapon determines your role: Is it actually a good idea? (editted 1.2)
RamenThief7
Member Posts: 362
I have editted this forum to express my new thoughts on the upcoming weapon system using whatever knowledge existed at the time of this edit.
Before, I had worried that there might not be any magic casting with a tanker class (like a paladin, but good). And, it seems I will not be able to do that with a Swordman. But, I have read that the current revealed classes are not the only ones. So, it seems that SE will eventually showcase tankers that can deal good damage with magic. But, that is guesswork, since I'm assuming SE would do that to keep the fans of the Paladin, Holy Knight and Dark Knight happy.
All speculation here. If the weapon determination role idea was to work like I state here, I would've have a problem with it. Hopefully, SE will release more information soon, because it's driving me crazy whether or not I can create a "holy knight" sort of character.
What are your thoughts on this?
Comments
It could be interesting. It could be fun. It could be horrible.
I'm going to plead 'not enough information' for now.
And that's one of the things I like about Japanese developers, they don't give a damn about taking you out your comfort zone and "buckin the horse". I just wish more western/Korean developers would go out on a limb sometimes and totally revamp how they think MMOs should be played......oh well I know I'll be there day one...whether others like it or not, I'm a sucker for real innovation.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
NO. I think its a bad idea.
Reason?
Just dumb. Need to have the option to switch classes or jobs yes, But not with a weapon or a spell book etc. etc.
Have it switch somethign like ffx1 to a point but bring it to a new way to bring in more people with change but not to much that it sucks the fun out of it.
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The problem here is that SE seems to be doing a complete overhaul with their job/class system. Yeah, it's cool that I can instantly be a Swordsman if I equip a sword, but what if I want to sling spells? I want to be a Holy Knight, and Holy Knights DO NOT use staffs.
Yeah I'm kinda worried about this and the "no experience/levels" thing. I don't want it to flop..
I don't think it is just an weapon system but also an armor system? Who says you have to equip just a staff or rod to learn magic? There are accessorys and they aren't restricting you on cloths either so you could end up learning cure and such from equiping rings or necklaces and such. I don't think that the weapon will be the only factor in making your own class.
Yeah we don't know exactly how it's going to work... so wait on the hate.
I think it could be interesting though. I mean if you're chaging jobs.. why not just change a weapon instead of having to go to the Mog House. I mean in all honesty it would be the same thing. It would be just like changing jobs from anywhere... maybe even mid battle (like the dress spheres from FFX-2) So it could be great... we just have to wait a little longer.
I trust them. It will be different yes, but it does sound like they are changing things up in exciting ways.
xP I have faith in the dev's due to the fact they havnt let me down yet...
So lets just wait and see how things unfold and pray for the best!!
these people are like drunk autistic savants...they are smarter than you could ever dream!
I agree. I don't understand why people are so quick to assume they know how the system will be done in its entirety when we've only been given tiny snippets of incomplete information. Don't dismiss it until we actually get to see how it works.
To the OP: I highly doubt they will pigeon-hole players like this. If there wasn't some kind of crossover with abilities/stats between "weapon categories" then there would be very little point in progressing in any more than one of them, and I think SE has made it pretty clear that they want players to have a good amount of freedom with customization. On the flipside, I wouldn't expect to tailor make your exact ideal class with only your favorite abilities, but if anyone could pull off something like that I guess it would be SE.
^
yea...that should pretty much end the discussion right here...no need to go on
and yes to the guy above me...SE are not only like drunk autistic savants they are also like magical pixel fairies who control all virtual reality and bend it to their whim...
SE can do whatever it wants and make it a masterpiece
(No im not a fanboy so dont call me one...I am not obsessed with SE nor am I in love with them...this is all meant to be taken as a joke because I truly see no point in this discussion...We have NO clue how it will work, all we can do is pray that the magical pixel fairies and drunk autistic savants can pull it off...and if anyone can, they can...)
I did my homework on this "weapon" thing and here is what I understand / think .
1- The closest FF I can relate to this is FF9 one of the best FFs created , Basically you buy a weapon say a "Bone knife" this bone knife has an ability attached to it . Lets call the Ability "Steal" while you equip the Knife you will always have the steal ability wich makes you a Thief, After you have the knife for a while the Knife's TP builds up till you learn a full steal and move on to another Upgraded knife or a new weapon.
2- You are allowed a set number of equipped abilities at any given time say start with 1 and grow up to a maximum of 15.
3- while it seems fun on paper to be a BLM in Plate armor, Or a PLD with a Scythe the Bonus you get from the "Best match" will be far greater than random funny solo Compos. So while Katana/Heal looks great, your Heal in leather armor will heal for lets say 200 while in Cloth it will gheal for 500.
4- your Weapon will be lets say 60% of your class while your Armor covers the 40% Bonus.
5- Imo it looks new, fun and would give you that feeling you experienced the 1st day you loged to FFXI "a Total noob who can , want and will learn it all".
All what is mensioned above is out of pure brain storming with key elements from FF games and interviews, So dont bash if the info is wrong or lacks resources.
Finally you can creat your Holy Knight, That Knight's Primary weapon could be a "Mace" and "Shield" after all Holy is not supposed to wield a blade, But this is FF so there is no limite to some's imagination or creativity.
Now this would be interesting with pvp and a full loot system... lol
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CASUAL CONFESSIONS - Draccan's blog
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Just compare it with how monster hunter games works , no level no xp , weapons and armor decide what you are . i think that where they are going with FFXIV .
But still it's too early to judge let square give us more info .
I don't think it's bad at all. And here's my one and only reason why:
When you changed jobs in Final Fantasy XI, what did you do? You went to your Mog House (or the Nomad Moogle) and selected a different job. Now, you still had to have the equipment for that job, otherwise you're pretty much useless anyway. You needed things that enhanced your abilities and made you more capable.
And when you bought weapons? You couldn't use them unless you were a certain job. Certain weapons were only usable by white mages, by dragoons, by summoners. Not just JSE, artifact, or relic either. Certain items were just made for certain jobs. Ninjas and samurais are the perfect example of this. So what I'm getting at is that it's a more defining role in that you can't just tell Mr. Moogle you wanna be a warrior. Instead, you have to pick up a sword. Obviously you wouldn't be using a wand. That's just stupid.
But for the aspect of using magick and combining roles, I'm sure there will be a way. Either weapons will have such latent properties as "unlocks X tier of X magicks" (provided you've developed your magic skills at some point by fighting with a staff / wand) or there will be some kind of presets; definitive weapons that when used, unlock special magicks available only to concepts comparable to holy knight, dark knight, etc. It's just a new, more logical way to define your role, instead of saying "Hey Mr. Moogle? Make me a mage!" and *poof*.
Abraxas [365]
Not so sure about the weapon thing but there's such a small amount of information it's hard to really say good or bad. The no experience or level thing, plus the weapon thing has me slightly concerned, but I'll hold out and see how it works in the end before I make a judgement.
A weapon determining your role is really no different then a job determining your role. The OP seems to be imagining some system where he invents his own class somehow, not sure how that fits XIV yet... but I've thought as others have pointed out that because you may not need to visit your moogle to "change" you might just be able to change on the fly and if that's true it opens up a whole lot of freedom and options. It could mean that putting a viable party together would be a lot easier and that you wouldn't always get stuck being main healer all the time, maybe only for more difficult fights, and could add plenty of strategy and complexity to fights if your whole party could change their "role" in the field maybe it could make sense to have 4PLD's and 2WHM for 1 fight and 3RDM and 3BLM for the next. I don't think they will create a system where everyone could just instantly change their job/role completely like that but maybe to a certain degree and that sounds like a hell of a lot of fun to me. But of course I don't know what I'm talking about like everyone else hah.
The problem here is that SE seems to be doing a complete overhaul with their job/class system. Yeah, it's cool that I can instantly be a Swordsman if I equip a sword, but what if I want to sling spells? I want to be a Holy Knight, and Holy Knights DO NOT use staffs.
Well what you seem to want is more of a "custom class" system, which isn't what it's going to be.
It seems to me - and I could well be wrong here, this is just my take on it - that they're approaching the system from the reverse of FFXI. Instead of your job determining what weapons you can use, it will be more based around what weapons you use determining your possible roles.
Now.. I don't know if that's "it"... and I don't think it would be. Reason being, even in FFXI, more than one job can use the same weapon. So who's to say that using a sword will limit you to only one job/role? That's the part that I think hasn't been really explained yet (at least from what I've seen).
In all, I'm intrigued and, personally, welcome a new twist on the basic gameplay mechanics. Coming from SE, I have confidence they'll make it interesting. Like another said earlier in this thread, SE (as with other Eastern developers) aren't afraid to try something new and different. I also appreciate that.
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
Note: I have editted the parent post of this thread to express my new thoughts on this thread. I will continue to edit my thoughts with any new information released on the "weapon determines role" idea.
There are two things I've always wanted to see in a video game...
Things that would most likely be the most fun in an MMORPG...
Things that would make white mage a fun and interesting job...
The first is an old, old classic concept RPG with new twists to characters. I'll go ahead and share what I remember, but the key reference here is the white mage.
~The powerhouse warrior was an elderly man who used a combination of magicks and elixers to hulk himself up, providing him with massive bone crushing strength. The man is not elderly but in fact middle aged, and the transforming magicks and alchemist potions have taken their toll...
~The destructive black mage didn't just remember spells. They weren't read once and committed to memory forever and ever. Instead, to remember them, several spells and encantations are tattood all over her body, and she carries rather large spell books with her. It's not that uttering a few words to cast a spells takes a long time, it's that it takes time to find which spell she's looking for.
~The resurrecting white mage doesn't just pray to the gods and hope they put humpty dumpty back together again. No. This time around the white mage gets some hands-on, combat medic style. She doesn't have holy magicks of divine light, but what she does have is a talent for rewiring the body. This medic would literally put her hands inside your open bloody chest and get your heart beating again, fusing together the gash that left you slain. Quite an excrutiating process, possibly even more painful than dying, and it leaves gnarly scars, but at least you're alive and in a condition to fight again...
The second is a running gag of a table-top RPG. Someone before mentioned a white mage getting benefits to their healing magicks by joining the front lines and dealing damage along with the rest of the players. Instead, the running-gag is the "Club of Healing". Bascially, the healer grabs this trusty club, and when their fellow adventurers feel the faint breath of death on the back of their neck, *WHACK* The white mage smacks them in the face with this "Club of Healing", which hurts, but suddenly they feel all better again! Despite their black eye...
If the white mage could go around bopping party members on the head, or literally squeazing the life back INTO the hearts of their fallen comrades, it could possibly be THE most fun role to play in ANY game, EVAR!
Abraxas [365]
I'm inclined to believe there will be weapon-hybrids in the way characters were class-hybrids. Instead of a character being both Paladin / Warrior (Holy Knight / Fighter) you might have a weapon that applies to both areas of expertise. Since this is a knight of heavy armor he would need a weapon of heavy damage, and since white mages can use clubs - to combine these abilities you would need to find a blunt weapon; a hammer or a mace. Those who aspire to be Dark Knights would seek greatswords. But since both of these are damage dealing weapons, starting as a fighter / swordsman might still be a reasonable beginning.
My interpretations of Holy Knights is that they are more defensive and protective while Dark Knights are more offensive and wreckless. So a Holy Knight might also want a shield while the Dark Knight goes for two-handed weapons like the greatsword, but to not limit their choices, maybe there will be rare two-handed warhammers avaiable for either Knight to use.
Abraxas [365]
Here's my theory on how it will work (this has been said in so many words already by others but anyways...)
I think we'll have some basic classes to begin with and then in order to unlock advanced and hybrid jobs you'll need to level up one or more of the basic weapons to a certain proficiency. So take for instance Paladin (or whatever you want to call it..."holy knight"). In order to unlock Paladin you may need to get swordman proficiency to skill lvl 40 and white magic proficiency to lvl 20 shields to lvl 30 and heavy armor to lvl 40 (they may also include armor lvling requirements in order to unlock advanced jobs who knows).
Some things I'm wondering though are can you change weapon/class in the middle of battle? Will there be a skill cap on how many weapons/classes you can master ?(this is especially important if you can change on the fly I think). We shall see. I know we all have a lot of questions and I'm excited to here them answered within the coming months (or weeks hopefully haha).
I like. I didn't even consider armor, so while your weapon defines your class, your armor defines your sub-class? Armor is important, but sounds less finite than weapon choice when it comes to choosing your role. So there could very well be "paladin's armor" to give them those benefits while they choose a sword or staff to focus on magic or damage, or a number of possibilities only limited to the number of classes there are...
It sounds like you can change during battle & on the fly, as they're "still looking for an easier way to change equipment" but I hope it's not TOO easy. If they're going for realism and logic in a free-world environment, which seems to be a theme so far with the revamped job classes and item ware and race models, it doesn't make sense to stop in the middle of battle and change clothes. A weapon, but not clothes, or you'd just end up dying naked... the indignity! There should be something that prevents players from being fighters one second, and healers the next. Like "must have max HP & MP to change" meaning you'd have to rest. Just throwing that out there. One of many possible ways to keep this 'feature' from being exploited.
Abraxas [365]
Hmmm.... that's a very cool take on it, as well.
That could be an interesting way to go about it and would fit in with the gear (at least weapons) being the focus.
The only thing that concerns me with any system is, as I mentioned, the ability of players who only care about "getting to end game as fast as possible" finding ways to exploit the game systems to do so, determining the "best and fastest builds" or whatever in the process, quickly reducing the game to templates and cookie-cutters of "how you're supposed to play".
As an aside...
That's one thing I don't think I'll get to experience in XIV like I did in XI. Reason is MMOs now are in a much different place than they were back when XI launched. MMOs weren't "mainstream", and players back then were still largely interested in "the journey" and took the time to play and learn the game... by actually playing. Nowadays most players seem to only care about end game and how to abuse the game system(s) to get there ASAP.
Aion isn't even out of closed beta here yet and I already see people discussing the best gear setups, the most optimal builds, the fastest way to level up... etc. By the time the game comes out, there will probably already be "how to play Aion" guides all over the place.
It's easy to say "just play how you want, don't worry how others play". I agree, and I could in other MMOs where I could solo all the time (which I have no interest in doing). However, the nature of XI makes that very difficult. You need other players to get through a lot of XI - which is fine on its own. The problem is, when you have players who adhere strictly to templates and online guides, they tend to demand everyone else around them to do the same.
Also, there are many players who are always concerned that they're "playing right" according to whatever the latest online guide tells them to do.
For example, a RL friend of mine and I often debated over using guides to play FFXI, or any game. I see guides as "suggestions" or "options", as *one* way you could choose to play the game, and only refer to them occasionally as such. My friend sees them as "a way to play the game as perfectly as possible" and relies on them almost exclusively. He's arguably spent as much time "studying" FFXI as he has playing it.
He insists that I'm not playing the game as "optimally" or "correctly" as I could be and that my experience is worse for it. He's told me, and I quote, "I'm sure you're enjoying whatever it is you're doing in the game. I'm just telling you that if you followed the guides and played the game more optimally, you would get more enjoyment out of it. These games are meant to be played with guides, to get the most out of them". I couldn't disagree with him more, nor could I relate to that mentality any less. To me, the fun is in learning by playing and doing and observing in-game.
He plays entirely based on what he's read. I play based on what I've learned by playing.
To each their own, right?
Trouble is... I've seen more and more people in MMOs in the past years who seem to follow his mentality: "if you're not following guides, you're not playing correctly". I've seen fewer and fewer who seem to follow mine.
Anyway... Some awesome discussion/theories/ideas being discussed in this thread. Me like.
Compared to what goes on in some other forums here, it's always great to see the XI and now XIV forums having mostly civil and intelligent discussions. I think it says a lot about the people following/playing the games. Kudos!
and the cash shop selling asphalt..." - Mimzel on F2P/Cash Shops
I smell a system similar to Last Remnant. See wiki. There even how would a char hold his weapon(s) influenced his class/career progress.
My example for FFXIV: want to be a gladiator? - use 2h swords and only phys. attacks.
paladin ? use 1h sword, shield and healing spells.
oh, well, i think the new battle system and job system would be a good try. since FF 12 was using this kind of system.
i would like to try something new.