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General: Making the Most of My Game Time
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
MMORPG.com's Garrett Fuller uses his column this week to talk about levelling in MMOs, and what might be done to make it more accessible to casual players while not removing all of the fun for players with more gaming time.
I just don’t have the kind of time I used to have when it comes to levelling in an MMORPG. Too often, it’s a time consuming process wherein in order to get the full value out of it, you end up having to read line after line of quest text. The current reliance within the industry on the time hog quest-to-level system can’t possibly be the only item in a developer’s bag of tricks, can it?
I think that there are tangible ways that developers and players alike can cut down on the time sink without necessarily compromising the game’s challenge.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
This drive to level and the viewing of quests as nothing more than xp is a large part of what is wrong with the MMO community today. People like you are a part of the problem. It is views like this that result in games like Freerealms, where lore and story have been completely disposed of.
I read through the text of my quests every day. I take the time to enjoy the plot lines and back story. More important, I could not care less about how fast I level. I play for fun, and to enjoy the journey, not race to the end.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
Agreed with above.
The rush to level is what makes leveling the "grind."
It is also why I love Everquest 2. I can usually log on, find a new quest complete with great scenery and individual dungeons, NPC's dialogues and hack away.
People complain about the lack of content in MMO's but never actually take the time to enjoy the content already in place.
It seems like mmo' s have to cater to both because the casual players come and go but its the dedicated fans that keep the games going through the lean times. People try to act as if there is some magical forumula that can fully explore both, but I think the system like in WAR is about the closest one can come. You have to put the lore in there for the people that want but you must also give players who don't care a way to bypass. I guess one thing I have never seen that would be cool would be if there was no log of text in the quest except what you absolutely needed to complete it. Then have the quest givers/completers have actual conversations where a right answer, (based on what was said earlier), would result in higher rewards or custom titles for the player that actually paid attention to the quest. Sure, there would be long lists of websites with all the info, but again that player would be spending time and effort to find this information out, (probably more than just paying attention would yield), and people that just wanted to be done with the quest would get the rewards promised at the beginning.
Some times I enjoy the story, other times I enjoy just powering through as many quests as I can in the time I have at hand. I currently play WAR and used to play DAoC. In both games I tended to read every word of every quest I did on my first character, but I quickly change characters and power through levels as fast as possible to explore the PVP/RVR on my newest toon. Been playing WAR for about 3 weeks and every slot is filled with character between 10-15. That's just the way I like to play and I love that if I don't care to pay attention to quests I don't have to. I hated Guild Wars with a passion. It seemed like every run through of every quest one guy would refuse to let the ending scene be bypassed and it just got old having to watch the same thing every time.
That's the problem that 'casual' players bring to MMOs. These are always the guys whining that they weren't given the same rewards for only playing a fraction of the time. Does it irritate me that some 8 year old raced so far ahead of me in whatever scale/rank the game keeps track of because he doesn't have a job or responsibilities? Yea, but I have enough self respect to not go crying on forums demanding that I be given something for free. That's why I would be really surprised if the new star wars MMO doesn't have a skip feature in its 'no text' quests. 'skip' is the one thing that the casual player has in their hands to somewhat equalize the fact that they do not have the time to get as far as people with less time/more dedication to the game. And its one of the few tools a dev can give that doesn't offend the player with more time.
sorta agree
I love a good yarn but increasingly find myself looking for the crib notes for a quest. Do i enjoy the story? Yes
I just wish it wasnt so Wordy sometimes.
I enjoy the quests the first time through, however once I am on an alt, it gets repetitive and I rather get the new character to higher level to do the higher dungeons.
Stradden's type of gameplay is not THE problem with MMOs. How does it affect you when he rather get through the leveling process quickly? Why does that create a problem? It is his way of playing and it doesnt change anything that you do?
Enjoy your questing and dont worry about those who rather reach end game fast.
As for using Questhelper in WoW, I dont see a problem with it. In fact, in Age of Conan, a system similiar to Questhelper is already in place. This allows those who enjoy the questing to do as they please, and those that want to get it over with to get to the "X" and complete the quest.
"I don't give a sh*t what other people say. I play what I like and I'll pay to do it too!" - SerialMMOist
I must say that I'm shocked, SHOCKED! that you wouldn't bother to read every single word of the quest line! What are you, one of those people who wants the game handed to you on a silver platter?? <Old Gamer flash back> "I'll tell you, in my day we didn't have any of this namby pamby hand holding! Quests said something like; "Something needs to be done in the World, go do it!"
Not only that, when we died(which we did a lot) we had to do our corpse runs through 20 feet of ice and snow up hill(both ways) and we were thankful for it!" You KNOW thats going to be the attitude of some people here... ^^ The level/skill debate has been going on for years now. Just as the solo/group debate has been. They all have some advantages and disadvantages(for both players and Dev's). 10 years ago I'd have been firmly in the extended quest line, "death must have meaning" crowd. Today, I lack not only the time, but the energy/focus required for the entire extended interactions cycle. I know I'm far from alone in this, as game after game has started to slowly shift their focus as well.
Call it the "dumbing down" of the game industry if you wish. But one can only find so many ways to say "Go kill X amount of Y and take it to Z" before it starts to all blur together. More and more I find that what ever new game I play, it all boils down to pretty much the same rotations, with slightly different cycles and eye candy. Perhaps I've played these games too long. But I still find something entertaining in them, or I'd have found another hobby. I really can't say what the answer is. If there actually is one.
I'll keep trying new games as they come out, perhaps I'll find one that keeps my interest. Of all of the games I've played(long, LONG list) I keep going back to WoW after 4-6 months.
I sense an error in your thinking, and perhaps Nightbringe1 is getting at it when he says that you are part of the problem. Here you are with only a few hours to play and because of that you feel compelled to maximize your game time, and you start skipping quest text...and then you start asking if MMOs can be designed differently. But see it's not the MMO, it's your real-world situation, and how you are dealing with it. I know of people who have lots of hours to play and they also skip quest text and power level and maximize their time. Likewise, I can imagine someone with just a few hours to play, logging in and going about their two hours very leisurely, because they've maximized their real world time and now want to relax.
On the other hand, heh, I too get frustrated with the formulaic way a lot of MMOs approach the quest-to-level process. You go from quest hub to quest hub and you're being invited to go through quests like their snack food or something. If you're going to do that then yeah get rid of the text altogether.
My 2 cents are as follows
Leveling first toon/char, should be the long approch from a all the way though zz (just IMO) then once you hit the "wall" of sorts any alt toon/char' should start maybee 1/2 way or so i hate to use it as a refrence but since it's 70% of what peope use i'll use it in wow's case you spend most of your time geting equipment so why not shorten up the equipment grind like wow did with tokens and what have you
To me any way it seems to be more about equipment i've seen guilds disband due to ninja looting and whatnot i'm not saying they should make anything a cake walk but your weekend players shouldnt have to regreat that they dont have time for a 4+ hour raid.
The important thing to keep in perspective here, it is games we are talking about. Games should be fun, not laborious.
Personally I enjoyed UO far more than I did many of these current games. Maybe a hybrid of levels and skills like AC1 had would work better.
But when you get to the stage where leveling is a huge grind, the fun factor rapidly disappears.
This is complete BS, if you don't have time to enjoy the game, why are you in it? Two hours a day is a lot of time for most players, I maybe spend 5 hours a week. If playing a game takes more time then you have, you might want to get another hobby, maybe one that actually requires you to do something.
What it boils down to is, are you in it for the destination -- reaching the next level -- or the journey -- watching a story unfold before you, exploring new lands, fighting dangerous enemies?
When you see a gnoll waddle past, do you think "my, that's one ugly little critter" or "that's four out of six, just two more to go before I hearthstone?"
As you peer into the mouth of an evil-looking cave, do you gather your wits and prepare for the worst, or do you check your quest log and make sure there aren't any more pickups before you zone in?
Are you beating your enemies to death with a hoe because you ran calculations of its adjusted DPS when its mana bonus is taken into account and it's the best weapon to use until that next raid you're planning, or because it's a hoe and you're beating monsters to death with it and it's awesome?
It's a conflict of mindset, basically, of commitment -- a combination of "grass is always greener after you gain one more level" mentality and standard, gamerly completionism. As a mold, it has yet to be broken -- though I do wish that MMO columnists would not equate Da Grind so completely with "playing the game."
Garrett, honestly your post makes me think you've never played an MMO besides WOW, completely misunderstand the genre and have never heard of the game called EVE, because it solves most of your problems.
Rush to end game? Why, what's the rush? Where are you rushing to? Where do you think you are going that you need to rush there? You are supposed to be enjoying the journey. Again, if not, play EVE, there is no end game, only 'more game'
You only have 2 hours to play? What, a month? If so, then this is the wrong genre for you. 2 hrs a day? That's all I put in and have no problem reaching "max level' (5 times in fact) and even do some of the end game content in games like WOW. All in 18 months of playing. You can play EVE only 2 hours a day and have a great time.
Sure, I skip a lot of the quest reading, but some are geniunely fun, and its nice to have a choice. Sure, old school MMO's were all about grinding, no need to read quests, just find a spot and grind. But we still ran all over hells half acre to get to the right camp, only to find someone in our spot so we waited or went elsewhere.
Notice I kept bringing up EVE. Please don't tell me that you don't like the game because it doesn't have an Avatar....
I normally don't criticize the columns in this site, but seriously, this one could have been written by a teenage WOW player.
Maybe you were just pulling our legs?
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Eve is fun... Up to a point. I'm coming up on four years that I've played it off and on. If I remember right I have 35 or 36 million skill points at this time. But as I've stated many times, the fact that the death penalty is so harsh, keeps me playing very conservatively. I've never left high sec(and never will). I collect battleships, run L4 missions and mine a bit once in a great while(usually after a patch). Just like WoW, I go back to Eve once in a while, play for a few months and then move on to something else. Having tried all of the major(and many of the minor) MMO's, I can say that most of them have common themes. Those get boring after a few months, so I move on. Perhaps some day I'll find a game that keeps me interested like Asherons Call did, once upon a time. Until then, I'll keep trying new games as they come out.
I swear some of the columnist on this site... I honestly don't see how they got that position, this is a prime example.
I agree with this poster 100% and I blame people like (the author of this terrible piece of crap article) you for the fact that there are few story driven, interesting MMOs around. You have obviously never played pencil and paper games back in the day or you would have developed appreciation of story for story’s sake. It is even worse since you write about you opinions for MMORPG.com, thereby doing double harm because developers may look at your work as a reflection of what gamers want. It you do not even have the patience to get through the thin story of WoW quests, then why bother at all? RPGs are all about the story and not the rush to t he end. You are a silly man and you need to be in a different profession because you are helping to ruin the hobby I love.
I hope the WoW crowd always stays in WoW so they do not pollute the other games I enjoy with their ADD selves.
The Clever Legion is Recruiting! www.clever-legion.com
I 100% agree with Garrett's view. This has to be the best post i've read on this site. How come Ultima Online, which had no level grind or huge quest system, did so well? It was the players and community providing the content. Whether you ran a player run town, potion vendor or worked at the brit forge getting tips for repairing armor and weapons.
The community was more important. Not kill 20 this and deliver 20 of these. All these quests and leveling just funnels people through the game without really allowing for interaction between players.
Say what you want, but every MMO since Ultima Online has taken a step back and thats why i'm back in UO.
I am not sure what the OP is doing playing a MMO. He would be happy playing single-player games, as it has everything he wants....
The truth is more and more companies are going the MMO route to try to avoid the illegal download (no cash) of theirs games. But to appeal to the old single/console players, they need to change the MMO into a easy and grind and repetitive game. Then a player can play like crazy for a couple months, be happy with himself for *maxing* the game ... maybe even come back in a year to check the expansion ... and move to the next one.
There are still games out there for those that like story, to explore, to play for fun (not status or to get to a end game and quit). The thing is, it will just be harder and harder to find those games as they are a minority and they usually have less cash.
KOTOR was one of the best RPG of the decade. Instead of releasing KOTOR 3, they decided to do TOR (and then they told was that game will be KOTOR 3, 4, 5, 6, 7.... all in one). Great! I would love to play KOTOR 3, and 4, and 5!
In the end, MMORPG is just a word without meaning now. They use it to try to boost sells. But the OP is happy! Care on....
ps.: hand holding, no quests text, point and go, grind like crazy, max everything... plenty of F2P games are like that OP, you should check those (oh okie probably you dont want to play a game if you cant be the top guy, the UBBER gear, as it would require buy stuff from the RMT store in the end-game... sorry, my mistake!)
... I just want a fun MMORPG... *sights*
Khm... I do not gasp really "I just don’t have the kind of time I used to have when it comes to levelling in an MMORPG.". It looks like the only thing in MMO you are interested in is END GAME, like RAID-ing, all the rest of the game being only necesary evil.
I do not have this problem, all that matter to me is discovering new worlds, doing quests, getting new abilities, spells, .... etc .... For me "end game" mean end game and time to wait to new expansion pack.
The problem with logic to rush to end of game is that every voyage is composed by start, traveling, getting to the destination. I was never interested in getting to the destination, it is fraction of second. What matter to me is *traveling*.
Imo, players thats enjoy traveling have much more fan then that one that live only for that second they reach end of the road.
As one of those people who other's hate to group with because I HAVE to read the text in full because that's part of the fun for me, I can still understand those who may not wish to have to read three pages of text on every quest of every alt.
A simple solution would be to have a "flag" system where, once you complete a quest on any character, there is a "skip" option for every character afterwards which will basically just give you the quest objectives in your log and be done.
I think that would be fair for everyone involved. Of course, those who "skip" the text still have to wait for those of us who haven't done it yet to finish reading before we get going.
This piece is right up there on my list of articles I classify as 'RIDICULOUS'. For a 'professional journalist' that writes for a website that focuses on the MMO genre, to write that 'leveling in MMOs is too time-consuming' is like a columnist for an exercise mag writing that 'lifting heavy weights to get in better shape is too time-consuming'.
While I can appreciate the attempt to make a point that his preference for game based on skills grinding would be something he'd like to see more in games, I have to ask; Why are you playing a 'game' that you view more as a 'chore' because it has time-consuming leveling? And further more why would you infer that because YOU find the quest-level-repeat method of advancement boring, that it is the same for even a fraction of the MMO population? Believe it or not, despite a lot of posters on this site; most people are not stupid enough to invest time and a monthly sub in a game they don't have fun playing.
Maybe you have more fun at the end-game, raiding and the like, but you knew what was entailed with getting to the 'fun' so why are you complaing? Another analogy comes to mind. So since you don't have more than a couple hours to play a game, do you find the time to watch a movie from time to time? Or do you want to 'maximize' movie time too, and just watch them at fast-foward speed?
If you're playing a leveling-based game, you've got no right to complain when you get wistful for a bygone age of skill-based gaming. No one is forcing you to play the quest-level-repeat game. UO is still out there. Why not play it and be a happier gamer, instead of a whiner?
I was a huge fan of the skill/experince system that SWG used to have. I still think it was perfect. Gaining experience in an area by using items/abilities in that area, then spending that experience on specific skills that you want under that area's heading ... brilliant!
Too bad SOE removed it.
Are there any other MMO's out there that curretly use this model?
I agree with this viewpoint and for that reason find the original article very disappointing / depressing.
I just don't understand some people (like the writer) who play MMOs. Look if you're not enjoying it please leave and play something else.
I think this whole genre needs splitting into two groups; those who want virtual worlds, and those that just want group instances. We're as far apart as classical music and pop.
And this is the reason Sanya Weathers wrote this article
http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/loadFeature/3076/Take-This-Column-To-NPC-X.html
The only thing I do not understand is why OP's opinion about his real life issues was even published here as a serious article...
Perhaps because the number of Purists who are obsessed with the same old quest treadmill is fading out? You have never felt like a mouse on a treadmill, eternally chasing a new and shiny bit of digital cheese? Its not so much that I mind the time(though that is more limited these days) as I'm totally bored with the usual presentation methods of quests. If you think about it, there is a limited number of possible quest types. No matter how creative Dev's are, until they come up with a better incentive for players, they are going to just keep rehashing the same tired old schemes.
Option One) Play only Games that start you off at end level.
Option Two) Buy a character off of E-bay.
Option Three) Play Tic- Tac- Toe online. (http://www.prongo.com/tictac/)
Option Four) Play a game for ages 5-12.
Option Five) Keep playing WOW.
Option Six) Don't play online games.
Option Seven) Pick up a new hobby.
If all you are looking for a way to fill-in two hours of your day you should try:
Watching a movie
Walking your dog
Reading a book
But one thing is for sure stop asking for MORE Dumb, F2P, WOW clone, Browser junk.
..its a guideline, not a rule, as players we must remember: Its a Game.