christ, god forbid an online ROLE PLAYING GAME has a story to it....The entire genre has been polluted and destroyed by grinders and "hardcore" gamers that have no flipping clue what the RPG stands for in MMORPG. Gods speed to SWTOR, hopefully they can bring back the RPG in MMORPG.
You're getting it twisted.
Its the hardcore gamers that give a shit about story and lore.
We do the research, we read the lore and wierd shit off the websites, shit we run the fansites.
Its the casuals that play an hour a day and donlt know shit. Even when I was playing WoW there wasn;t one Hardcore player that I knew that didnt atleast know some of the lore, yet most of the casuals just played the game as there first mmo.
There's nothing wrong with being casual but don;t act like hardcore players are the disease of the genre.
sure some rush to endgame fast but these guys also have multiple alts and they do find enjoyment in the leveling game also.
Fuck dude, I've been playing MMOs when they were actually RPGs not freaking single player games with co-op dungeons like todays mmos.
Aye aye, i've been playing mmos since 1997 back when the realm was around, but the "hardcore" players i usually deal with are focuses on the grind, be it gear or level and don't give a darn about the story, quest, objective, or fun for that matter.
I guess maybe these gamers should be declared "grinders" or something of that nature. I myself play probably the same amount of hours a week as a "hardcore" player since it's summer, but i wouldn't lump myself in the with current definition because i play for the fun, the adventure, the story, the lore, the friends, and the experience of being in a virtual world with other people.
I believe the current commonly accepted definition of a hardcore player is one that puts aside all the things that make these games fun and unique and turn them into grinds. They're too focused on becoming the best (in a virtual world, lol) and they miss all the bits and pieces that make these games fun, unique, and interesting. Majority of the players don't say "oh lets do this raid instance because it looks cool, has a cool boss, or has good lore behind it", they say "we need to do this instance so we can get gear 'x' so we can do the next instance and get gear 'y'". They're just grinding gear and not really PLAYING the game.
Sadly, the developers continue to cater to these types of players. I've put down so many games that i've picked up recently because they're all just the same damn grind either disguesed worse or think that adding one single feature can make their game king. These games are MMORPGs...massively multiplayer (there shouldn't be fucking soloing to the cap) online roleplaying games. They're missing the most important element of RPGs...THE FRIGGIN STORIES. Going out and killing 50 wolves is neither a quest or a story, it's a friggin chore and if i wanted to do that i'd go get 5 bottles of water from the local store. They might as well call these games "level, equip yourself, and go pvp online games", that might as well be a cool FPS game, maybe modern warfare 2 will have customizable armor this time along with guns and everyone will be bitching about getting sniper gear when they take down an abrams tank and then ride off on their epic blackhawk mount
The definition you gave seems more like a dedicated player. One who involves himself fully in the world/game he's partaking in and there is nothing wrong with that and those types of players can really make a game unique because they become a part of it, but the gamer i'm describing distances himself so far from the game and only cares about maxing his character (i don't understand why, what is he going to do with it in a world he cares nothing about?)
Maybe it's due to the games I play (Eve, Ryzom) but your last paragraph describes the hardcore players im talking about.
Those crazy grinders are freaking gold farmers or power levelers that sell character on Ebay imo. They don't care about games so imo I don't even care about them.
The RPG in mmorpg doesn't automatically connote story, character, or roleplaying. What it means (to developers and the majority of players) is the underlying mechanical system of the game, i.e. hit dice and character progression through XP.
I'm a roleplayer in that I care about story and the virtual world aspects of these games (dwindling though they may be), but most people don't, and honestly the genre has never been about or for people like me.
Its about giving people measurable tasks to accomplish (leveling) and rewarding them with some kind of ding so they keep at it. Story and roleplaying has flourished in some games despite the fact that MMORPGs aren't designed to facilitate them, but don't kid yourself into thinking the RPG in the name actually stands for roleplaying.
As in you PLAY a ROLE. You assume a persona -- an alter ego in a world and PLAY it.
I don't see much of that going on even on so-called Role Playing Servers. (Now THEREs an example of how far the genre has strayed -- a Role Playing Game has to have Role Play servers).
If Bioware can bring the Role Playing back into MMOs I'm all for it. Because in the games I've played there is no role playing to speak of. To be fair it isn't just the players. Most of the games don't try very hard to promote role play. Oh they may have nice graphics (although games seem to be retreating from that too, which is a shame) and they'll probably have some backstory written up somewhere. You can take quests which would explain some aspect of lore for those who actually bother to read the text. Of course those are scripted quests and many people will just pull the walkthrough off the web somewhere. In all, the roleplay is so watered down as to be pretty much nonexistent.
I agree what a lot of what passes for quests are not role play. Such as killing 10 wolves. Now tradeskilling gets involved and it's no better -- gather 20 resources. Make 10 items.
As for hard core. To me a hard core player is someone who's willing to do pretty much anytthing to get to the end-game and devotes huge amounts of time to do it. Besides spending the huge amounts of time it may include other things too. Whatever is the optimum way to get as powerful as possible (hardcore players tend to concentrate on the optimum). Attention to lore and story just about never is an aid to getting to the end game so it tends to fall by the wayside. They invariably have the most developed toons of course. I've known some hardcore players personally and none of them had a life outside of gaming I'd want to have. Most were unemployed. One was living with his grandmother. Another had his own place but he did nothing but play games. I didn't catch how he was supported but he obviously was because he sure didn't have a job. Both of these guys were grown men.
Such people will certainly have the most developed toons since they do nothing but play games. I do not envy them.
I suspect it will be possible to play SWTOR in either a hardcore 80 hour a week mode or a more casual 15 hour a week mode. Perhaps in that game the hardcore players will care about story since paying attention to story will help your character to advance. Obviously the person who plays 80 hours a week will progress farther and faster then the one who plays 15 hours a week. I doubt I'll be envying them either.
How many players in WoW are level 80 all ready? How many players have multiple 80's? Does this guy really believe in such things as a casual MMORPG gamers? If you play more than 2hrs a day you are not casual. I consider a casual MMORPG player as someone that plays between 2-6 hrs a week tops. That is casual. Players that play 6+ hrs a week, that is not casual and I would say that those kind of players make up the bulk of WoW's player base and most MMORPG's.
I tend to believe for most folks it fluctuates. They may play heavy for 6 months, then slowly back off or leave the game, then start up again in another few months. It really is a rarity that you will see those 15 hour 7 days a week players doing that for 3 years straight. They are out there, and I think that’s what he means by hardcore.
MMO's have been screwed up by players like this for years, best if they are ignored for a change.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Either there are like 100 levels of hardcore, or everyone has a different opinion of what it really means. xD
The current version is that the 'hardcore' player is the sadomasochist who only plays games that require you to have a full group to grind the same sapwn point for three days to reach level two, like in the 'good old days' of EQ. If there is a hint of the ability of players being allowed to play the game at their own pace, meaning less than eight hours a day, to gain a level within a month, then the game is carebear city and no real game would ever play it.
Basically, if you don't consider WoW to be the worst thing that ever happened to MMORPGs, then you aren't a hardcore gamer. You can be a proponent of games that are easier than WoW to advance in, and easier than WoW mechanics-wise, as long as you hate WoW.
It's why Vanguard's current playerbase can point to themselves as 'the only hardcore players left' even after their game has been remade into another version of WoW, where level advancement is as easy as entering your username and password in the log-in screen. It's also why current SWG players can pretend to be playing the only sandbox game on the market, because the only other game on the market is WoW. It is why the players of EQ2 can claim to be playing some sort of 'deep', 'involved' game, while playing a game that has been made to be as close to WoW as possible, while avoiding copywrite infringement.
'Hardcore' means whatever game the person who caims to be 'hardcore; is currently playing. It has the same meaning as 'real gamer' when the console folks are whining that some game or another is being released for the Wii, instead of, or in addition to, the Xbox or PS3.
'Hardcore' means 'shut up because I know better than you, even if the games I support are nowhere near successful'. It has no relevant meaning as far as any actuall discussion is concerned.
RPG stands for Role Playing Game As in you PLAY a ROLE. You assume a persona -- an alter ego in a world and PLAY it.
It has never meant that as far as CRPGs are concerned. The only relevance between the original definition and the CRPG definition is that the developers would like to be able to recreate that type of experience with a CRPG. MMORPGs get a lot closer to that definition, but the ability to have alternate characters nulifies it. MMORPGs and CRPGs are about the gameplay experience, not the player's ability to play a role in the gameworld.
The vast majority of MMO players don't play a role. They play themselves playing an avatar that is constrained by the game's mechanics. When gearing up to face the dungeon of a bit more evil than the last one, they discuss what happend to them outside the game, not the imaginary things their gnome got up to with the blonde half-elf at the local tavern.
Many players have several alts, all of them are basically themselves but with whatever abilities the class and/or race that character is has. Even on the supposed 'roleplaying' servers, you will find more converstaions about the players personal life than the character's.
So you all know! The reason I brought this up was not in some lame effort to glorify Hardcore vs casual. It was to point out that Bioware is focusing on the journey and not the Endgame. All mmos to date that has taken this route have failed.
You can say what you want about Blizzards games. But one thing that Blizzard always dose is suport their hardcore comunity. This comes as a top priority for them when they design games. Be it starcraft, Diablo or world of warcraft Blizzard is always at the top of its game when it comes to balance and challenge. I personally don't belive there is a casual market waiting to get taped. Most MMOers today are all semi Hardcore. If you play more then 2h a day you are not a Casual. And people always finish content faster then the developers thought they would. Also inside all of us is a mini maxer, everyone wants to get the best possible outcome when equipping and specing out their charecters. To believe anything else is to delude yourself.
With this in mind you should understand that going for a casual market, and then realizing that shit they finish our content to fast. Is going to be a mayor blow to Bioware. If you look at the 3 things that MMO players complain about the most, it is:
Lack of content
Bugs
Balance
Once it becomes evident that the game is lacking, the forum wars will begin, and that will be the end of Bioware, as it was the end of AOC and WAR. both those games were good, but they failed to deliver on the 3 things that gamers want the most
Lots of conent
No bugs
Good balance
It realy is that simple, if you want your mmo to stand a chans you need to fix those 3 things. If you dont you can kiss your game goodbye.....
Lack of content... well for a standard MMORPG I suppose you mean end-game content (raids, lairs, instances, that kind of stuff).
But TOR (as devs are saying at least) its suppose to be about STORY too. They said that the game will be HUGE for each class ... something like having a KOTOR 3 for jedi, a KOTOR 4 for bounty hunter, ....
If that really happens we will have 300+ hours of content on release. Now add the MMO stuff (crafting, instances, RP, chatting, raids, grind...). I dont think we will lack content!
As long the players dont try to go the route: okie I am *insert class*, I must grind until my eyes bleed to get to cap level this week (ignoring the big STORY part), we should be okie ;-) These guys will get bored fast and move on to another game.
So you all know! The reason I brought this up was not in some lame effort to glorify Hardcore vs casual. It was to point out that Bioware is focusing on the journey and not the Endgame. All mmos to date that has taken this route have failed.
There is not a single MMO currently on the market that has taken that route. There have been several that launched incomplete that have claimed the rest of the game would be added later, but that isn't the same thing. BioWare have said that the raiding and other end game mechanics common to MMOs will be included with TOR. Considering the endgame of every MMO is pretty much the same, focusing on the journey to the end game raiding is not a bad idea.
TOR is going to be a typical MMORPG, as far as game mechanics and systems are concerned. Where BioWare is attempting to differentiate their MMO for the rest is that they are adding class specific story based character advancement. It will be little more than the typical quest system, with a lot more words, all fully voiced. If they accomplish what they are claiming they intend to , it will make making alternate characters a lot less boring, while allowing the folks who only want to play their single character to raid for the best in-game gear, until the expansions come along, both boxed and micro transaction based.
Age of Conan has a small version of what BioWare is attempting in the Tortage portion of the game. Different class groups have a slightly different series of quests leading to leaving the newbie island. TOR is supposed to have a similar system from start to finish for each class, along with choices made along the way leading the story in a different direction, The result will likely be a flowchart or tree quest system, which, while not really any different mechanically for the rest, will treat the player to several different fully voiced 'go kill a dozen, not just rats, but giant harbringer creatures of doom!!!!!' experiences.
In essence, BioWare isn't tryong to reinvent the wheel, but they are trying to add thicker treads to the tires we already have. I for one hoe they succeed in doing so. Better storytelling in MMOs, not just TOr, would be a major improvement to the entire MMORPG inustry, fully voiced is optional.
Okay if we for arguments sake say that the average target group for TOR is a male between the age of 12-25.
This demographic is highly competitive and will strive to be the best in any game they play. Story means less here, E-peen and kicking arse and taking names are the most important thing.
Then we have the old school gamers age 26-40, many in this block are/where pen and paper RPGers
This demographic cares a great deal about story and immersion. But real life commitments and jobs keep many of them from playing as mush as the younger audience.
Now to me focusing on the road trip has always been boring, but some times needed both in games and films. It builds momentum for the climatic finish. A necessary Evil that when completed gives the end goal that mush more meaning. But if the end goal is lacking, not hardcore enough so to speak. The first ones there are going to start whining and moaning. Now the older players will probably play until the end to see for themselves. But the younger audience will listen to their friends, and if they say its uncool or lame, they will move on to other games.
This has happened in a lot of mmos Warhammer, AOC, Tabula Rasa and Hellgate London to name a few. The only thing the developers should focus on in my book is the endgame. People will endure a lot of shit if the Endgame is World class. Its just a road trip, it’s a destination from A-B that you need to travel. Who really cares what you do to get there, but if the end experience sucks, you feel cheated and fooled. And questions like why did I spend so mush time doing this only to get rewarded with this crap, will pop up in peoples heads. Mark my words it will happen and the forum post will start getting more and more negative until the word has spread far and wide that Biowares game is incomplete and lacking in content
The only reason there is a lack of content is because these MMOs now adays don't actually have any content other than a poorly disguised grind.
I have faith bioware will take care of bugs
As for number 3. I hope that they do NOT balance the game around PvP. God forbid you have classes that are stronger against certain classes and you have to work together in a massively MULTIPLAYER game to win a fight. -sigh-
The only reason there is a lack of content is because these MMOs now adays don't actually have any content other than a poorly disguised grind.
QFT
Honestly, with respect to the term 'hardcore' - there is nothing 'hardcore' about MMOs or players except perhaps the massive time investment some things take to complete. But this is not a particularly impressive feat tbh. As the above poster said, most MMOs have a severe lack of content (meaning story or game mechanics, something that actually deserves the name 'rpg').
So in essence the OP complains about a company that wants to put some meat on the bones that is online gaming because it will not satisfy his achiever-nature (grinding out levels for the warm fuzzy feeling of 'accomplishment')? whatever ^^
Anyway, it's still to far down the road to be saying much about TOR other than it will (hopefully) not make you kill 100 rats to get 5 tails... They will have raiding and PvP so there is bound to be stuff to do for people thatcomplete the different story arcs etc.
After reading the latest Swedish PC gamer for agust 2009. I stumbled across an artical about The old Republic. Sadly on page 3 Gordon Walton gets quoted for saying this, "We have to ignore the Hardcore players in Star wars the old Rebublic", refering to the players who will ignore the story and mini max their charecters to the TOP. This is one of the most stupidest things I'v heard, he really drops the ball on this one. Expect no working endgame in The old republic. What Walton fails to realize is that 50% or more of the markets players are going to try and mini max thier charecters. When they find that once the story ends the game has little to offer them. The forum moaning and whining will commence, and the end result of that we have seen before just look at AOC and WAR. No working endgame or a buggy one leads to cancelled subs and mass exodus. Onse TOR gets a bad rep its doomed and no amount of after release fixes will save them....... Now this is only speculation, they might have a fantastic endgame. But saying you will not suport the hardcore often means the game is lacking in some way. Might be the balance, might be missing content after hitting max level or underdeveloped crafting. Whatever the case is Bioware is setting themself up for a mayor disaster if they ignore the Hardcore players. The reasons for this are simple
Hardcore players push games to the limit, they sniff out bugs, imbalances and they show the way for the masses, doing server firsts etc Also the Human psyche with its pack mentality needs people that spearhead, being the best at something. Look at sports if we all could do everything we would not have athletes breaking records and pushing the boundries. This is also true about science, where would we be today without those people??? And take the game Poker for example millions of people would not be playing it if it wernt for the Pro players that show that the game actually involves some skill. Good players are needed to make a game successful, if its just filled with average joes it will not be a thrilling experience.
I think you slightly miss the point.
Firstly, they have said there will be end-game elements like raiding and PvP.
Secondly, you are describing how most MMOs are today. They are more about the destination rather than a journey. Bioware's most games are about journey. Hardcore players are in this manner going to be ignored. I am looking forward to this aspect in MMO.
I also like min-maxing, but to be honest, MMOs could use a little innovation how they handle the journey. Both pen and paper along with PC RPGs have a lot features that could benefit MMORPGs. The biggest MMO titles, that are DikuMUD-derived, unfortunately ignore many traditional RPG elements.
This will be, by all information so far, a quite different MMORPG. They have even hinted that it will not have a traditional subscription model.
Hardcore also do not translate to "good players", "skilled" or "pro". That is just a fallacy.
Thanks for bringing a little logic to this silly topic.
"Oi Bioware......what is this rubbish? I had to sit through countless minutes of someone saying stuff at me and the whole time whoever it was said..er...wotever it was they were saying......i couldnt hit stuff. Or jump and down. While hitting stuff. I hate your game. And i hate you. And ur family. And stuff......"
"Er.......yeah we did mention time and time again that Bioware is all about the experience and emotional involvement of your journey through our games, and we're attempting to stick with this ( so far very successful ) formula in the making of our MMO. I think if you know what Bioware is about and have enjoyed any of our previous rpg games to date, then you might have an understanding for what TOR will be and.....er.....hello.....mate....hellooooo....are you listening.........?"
"Spacebar....spacebar....spacebar......ffs look...i told u it doesn't.....oh er.....sorry, wot?"
After reading the latest Swedish PC gamer for agust 2009. I stumbled across an artical about The old Republic. Sadly on page 3 Gordon Walton gets quoted for saying this, "We have to ignore the Hardcore players in Star wars the old Rebublic", refering to the players who will ignore the story and mini max their charecters to the TOP. This is one of the most stupidest things I'v heard, he really drops the ball on this one. Expect no working endgame in The old republic. What Walton fails to realize is that 50% or more of the markets players are going to try and mini max thier charecters. When they find that once the story ends the game has little to offer them. The forum moaning and whining will commence, and the end result of that we have seen before just look at AOC and WAR. No working endgame or a buggy one leads to cancelled subs and mass exodus. Onse TOR gets a bad rep its doomed and no amount of after release fixes will save them....... Now this is only speculation, they might have a fantastic endgame. But saying you will not suport the hardcore often means the game is lacking in some way. Might be the balance, might be missing content after hitting max level or underdeveloped crafting. Whatever the case is Bioware is setting themself up for a mayor disaster if they ignore the Hardcore players. The reasons for this are simple
Hardcore players push games to the limit, they sniff out bugs, imbalances and they show the way for the masses, doing server firsts etc True but still not a nececity and what you fail to mention is the way they exploit everything that can be exploited Also the Human psyche with its pack mentality needs people that spearhead, being the best at something. Look at sports if we all could do everything we would not have athletes breaking records and pushing the boundries. This is also true about science, where would we be today without those people???This makes no sense whatsoever, a game should neither be for breaking records, winning money or bragging rights, it should be made so that its a pleasant experience, guess what most MMOS are not. And take the game Poker for example millions of people would not be playing it if it wernt for the Pro players that show that the game actually involves some skill. People wouldnt play poker unless there were Pros? How fucking dumb can one be, poker has been played for 300 years or so, long before any leagues and such, yes big tournaments and your so called Pros draw attention to the game, but thats about it, people would play poker with or without pros, this is just fucking dumb. Good players are needed to make a game successful, if its just filled with average joes it will not be a thrilling experience. Great another moron comment, ok where did you find this to be true, with your logic every single player RPG sucks, or atleast unless you played it 300 times and read equal amount of guides to be "pro". An Guess what, people get better the longer they play?! No noobs will be awsome.. but asuming that you are talking about players at endlevel that are better then the "average joe", so fucking what? If you seek idols in a mmo your fucking pathetic and if you whine about your enemies being too good well... same result.
My logic tells me this is great news, no grinding involved, less repeating and more fun your 1,2,3,4 arent worth shit to me, sorry but I think their illogical and like in 1 easy to overcome. I mean we have the potential of not just get a mmo with the creators of KotoR but also a mmo based on a storyline which combats grinding heavily. No more standing around some where killing mobs and waiting for them to spawn, no questline look to be made by a 5 year old.. fuck me this game looks better and better every day.
After reading the latest Swedish PC gamer for agust 2009. I stumbled across an artical about The old Republic. Sadly on page 3 Gordon Walton gets quoted for saying this, "We have to ignore the Hardcore players in Star wars the old Rebublic", refering to the players who will ignore the story and mini max their charecters to the TOP. This is one of the most stupidest things I'v heard, he really drops the ball on this one. Expect no working endgame in The old republic. What Walton fails to realize is that 50% or more of the markets players are going to try and mini max thier charecters. When they find that once the story ends the game has little to offer them. The forum moaning and whining will commence, and the end result of that we have seen before just look at AOC and WAR. No working endgame or a buggy one leads to cancelled subs and mass exodus. Onse TOR gets a bad rep its doomed and no amount of after release fixes will save them....... Now this is only speculation, they might have a fantastic endgame. But saying you will not suport the hardcore often means the game is lacking in some way. Might be the balance, might be missing content after hitting max level or underdeveloped crafting. Whatever the case is Bioware is setting themself up for a mayor disaster if they ignore the Hardcore players. The reasons for this are simple
Hardcore players push games to the limit, they sniff out bugs, imbalances and they show the way for the masses, doing server firsts etc True but still not a nececity and what you fail to mention is the way they exploit everything that can be exploited Also the Human psyche with its pack mentality needs people that spearhead, being the best at something. Look at sports if we all could do everything we would not have athletes breaking records and pushing the boundries. This is also true about science, where would we be today without those people???This makes no sense whatsoever, a game should neither be for breaking records, winning money or bragging rights, it should be made so that its a pleasant experience, guess what most MMOS are not. And take the game Poker for example millions of people would not be playing it if it wernt for the Pro players that show that the game actually involves some skill. People wouldnt play poker unless there were Pros? How fucking dumb can one be, poker has been played for 300 years or so, long before any leagues and such, yes big tournaments and your so called Pros draw attention to the game, but thats about it, people would play poker with or without pros, this is just fucking dumb. Good players are needed to make a game successful, if its just filled with average joes it will not be a thrilling experience. Great another moron comment, ok where did you find this to be true, with your logic every single player RPG sucks, or atleast unless you played it 300 times and read equal amount of guides to be "pro". An Guess what, people get better the longer they play?! No noobs will be awsome.. but asuming that you are talking about players at endlevel that are better then the "average joe", so fucking what? If you seek idols in a mmo your fucking pathetic and if you whine about your enemies being too good well... same result.
My logic tells me this is great news, no grinding involved, less repeating and more fun your 1,2,3,4 arent worth shit to me, sorry but I think their illogical and like in 1 easy to overcome. I mean we have the potential of not just get a mmo with the creators of KotoR but also a mmo based on a storyline which combats grinding heavily. No more standing around some where killing mobs and waiting for them to spawn, no questline look to be made by a 5 year old.. fuck me this game looks better and better every day.
That was pretty much a knock out punch. Game over for another mindless naysayer.
christ, god forbid an online ROLE PLAYING GAME has a story to it....The entire genre has been polluted and destroyed by grinders and "hardcore" gamers that have no flipping clue what the RPG stands for in MMORPG. Gods speed to SWTOR, hopefully they can bring back the RPG in MMORPG.
You're getting it twisted.
Its the hardcore gamers that give a shit about story and lore.
We do the research, we read the lore and wierd shit off the websites, shit we run the fansites.
Its the casuals that play an hour a day and donlt know shit. Even when I was playing WoW there wasn;t one Hardcore player that I knew that didnt atleast know some of the lore, yet most of the casuals just played the game as there first mmo.
There's nothing wrong with being casual but don;t act like hardcore players are the disease of the genre.
sure some rush to endgame fast but these guys also have multiple alts and they do find enjoyment in the leveling game also.
Fuck dude, I've been playing MMOs when they were actually RPGs not freaking single player games with co-op dungeons like todays mmos.
Hilarious. I think everyone is going off their own version of "hardcore player". I see what you are saying, and I see what a lot of others are saying. Basicly some harcroe players do help the game and are a wealth of knowledge, some are just annoying. At any rate, it is good news that this game will not cater to the hardcore but will cater to the (in my definition) dedicated player.
Dedicated by my definition: Plays a couple hours a night after work, more on the weekends, is probably in a decent progressing guild with a mix of people/play styles, makes it to PvE raids, and participates in PvP. Has at least a weekly presence in the game and knows enough to be able to get newer players started or through tough spots.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
From someone who isnt a huge fan of stars wars I'll likely stear clear of this mmo. Not because I dont think it will be good but because I saw a simliar game (lotro) slowly go down hill because the mmo was restricted to stay within the storyline to keep the avid fans happy. In lotro they added Moria, in which the player does nothing but fight orcs and goblins for 10 levels, not to say some dont enjoy Moria but for me I canceled my sub because I felt lotro would likely follow the same tread in the future to keep tolkien fans happy.
I feel that star wars will have a similar future. Big star wars fans will stick with the game because its star wars but the average gamer like myself will slowly find the world bland and boring because its the same thing over and over and over.
Personally, I'm staying away from books and movies made into MMOs because I dont feel a company can make a world that will live up to them. If I want a star wars or lotro fix I'll read the books or watch the movies, rather then waste my time in an mmo that does nothing but lessen the series.
I get quite tired of the complete obsession with "end game" that some people have. They hurry to the end so they can raid raid raid until their pants fall off. Why? I can't imagine anything more boring. I've been playing EQ2 for about 5 years and have yet to EVER reach the end game, and I've only raided TWICE because there's so much more to do.
How about you try to enjoy the journey? Thats what the game is all about, after all. We don't even know what form the end game will take. I hope to hell it isn't yet more damned aggravating raiding since thats all any of the current games areusing.
What makes a game succesful to me is, when it succeeds in giving me the idea that what i do is making a difference and my achievements are " eternal" .
It is great to go for " firsts" in a MMO; being the first to kill boss X. But it can also be equally awarding to be the best swords crafter, or the hunter with the best bow in game.
Others have different goals: forming a social guild, be the oneto figure out all the stat mechanics, or the one that explores areas 100%.
In my book you can be hardcore and have fun, and achieve anything of the above. These days hardcore has a rather negative tone to it, but being devoted to your hobby isnt always bad.
If hardcore means i have to be online 6 hours + a day to achieve anything, 40 hours + a week, then i am happy SWTOR will not focus on that kind of gameplay.
Currently playing browser games. Waiting for Albion Online, Citadel of Sorcery and Camelot Unchained. Played: almost all MMO pre 2007
If hardcore means i have to be online 6 hours + a day to achieve anything, 40 hours + a week, then i am happy SWTOR will not focus on that kind of gameplay.
Agreed entirely...
This is exactly what I'm hoping for, an end to the requirement of massive amounts of time and people in the *hope* that you get a pair of gloves this week. That's not end-game content, that's the worst kind of grinding imaginable.
How many players in WoW are level 80 all ready? How many players have multiple 80's? Does this guy really believe in such things as a casual MMORPG gamers? If you play more than 2hrs a day you are not casual. I consider a casual MMORPG player as someone that plays between 2-6 hrs a week tops. That is casual. Players that play 6+ hrs a week, that is not casual and I would say that those kind of players make up the bulk of WoW's player base and most MMORPG's.
I disagree. Casual players play about 2 hours a day 5x a week and about 8 hours on the weekend for a total of 18hrs a week so 0 - 18hrs is casual.
Hardcore players play 4 hours a day 5x a week and 20 hours on the weekend for a total of 40 hours a week. So from 18 - 40 hours a week is the Hrdcore market.
Comments
You're getting it twisted.
Its the hardcore gamers that give a shit about story and lore.
We do the research, we read the lore and wierd shit off the websites, shit we run the fansites.
Its the casuals that play an hour a day and donlt know shit. Even when I was playing WoW there wasn;t one Hardcore player that I knew that didnt atleast know some of the lore, yet most of the casuals just played the game as there first mmo.
There's nothing wrong with being casual but don;t act like hardcore players are the disease of the genre.
sure some rush to endgame fast but these guys also have multiple alts and they do find enjoyment in the leveling game also.
Fuck dude, I've been playing MMOs when they were actually RPGs not freaking single player games with co-op dungeons like todays mmos.
Aye aye, i've been playing mmos since 1997 back when the realm was around, but the "hardcore" players i usually deal with are focuses on the grind, be it gear or level and don't give a darn about the story, quest, objective, or fun for that matter.
I guess maybe these gamers should be declared "grinders" or something of that nature. I myself play probably the same amount of hours a week as a "hardcore" player since it's summer, but i wouldn't lump myself in the with current definition because i play for the fun, the adventure, the story, the lore, the friends, and the experience of being in a virtual world with other people.
I believe the current commonly accepted definition of a hardcore player is one that puts aside all the things that make these games fun and unique and turn them into grinds. They're too focused on becoming the best (in a virtual world, lol) and they miss all the bits and pieces that make these games fun, unique, and interesting. Majority of the players don't say "oh lets do this raid instance because it looks cool, has a cool boss, or has good lore behind it", they say "we need to do this instance so we can get gear 'x' so we can do the next instance and get gear 'y'". They're just grinding gear and not really PLAYING the game.
Sadly, the developers continue to cater to these types of players. I've put down so many games that i've picked up recently because they're all just the same damn grind either disguesed worse or think that adding one single feature can make their game king. These games are MMORPGs...massively multiplayer (there shouldn't be fucking soloing to the cap) online roleplaying games. They're missing the most important element of RPGs...THE FRIGGIN STORIES. Going out and killing 50 wolves is neither a quest or a story, it's a friggin chore and if i wanted to do that i'd go get 5 bottles of water from the local store. They might as well call these games "level, equip yourself, and go pvp online games", that might as well be a cool FPS game, maybe modern warfare 2 will have customizable armor this time along with guns and everyone will be bitching about getting sniper gear when they take down an abrams tank and then ride off on their epic blackhawk mount
The definition you gave seems more like a dedicated player. One who involves himself fully in the world/game he's partaking in and there is nothing wrong with that and those types of players can really make a game unique because they become a part of it, but the gamer i'm describing distances himself so far from the game and only cares about maxing his character (i don't understand why, what is he going to do with it in a world he cares nothing about?)
Maybe it's due to the games I play (Eve, Ryzom) but your last paragraph describes the hardcore players im talking about.
Those crazy grinders are freaking gold farmers or power levelers that sell character on Ebay imo. They don't care about games so imo I don't even care about them.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
The RPG in mmorpg doesn't automatically connote story, character, or roleplaying. What it means (to developers and the majority of players) is the underlying mechanical system of the game, i.e. hit dice and character progression through XP.
I'm a roleplayer in that I care about story and the virtual world aspects of these games (dwindling though they may be), but most people don't, and honestly the genre has never been about or for people like me.
Its about giving people measurable tasks to accomplish (leveling) and rewarding them with some kind of ding so they keep at it. Story and roleplaying has flourished in some games despite the fact that MMORPGs aren't designed to facilitate them, but don't kid yourself into thinking the RPG in the name actually stands for roleplaying.
I wish it did.
I suppose the words all have their own meanings depending on who is calling themselves such things or being called such things by others...
I'm guessing hardcore in his sense are those that want to get to the end as fast as possible.
I'm guessing the game encourages you to actually enjoy the experience from day 1.
I'm also guessing getting bent about relatively uninformative statements will lead to ulcers, heart attacks and premature death.
Either there are like 100 levels of hardcore, or everyone has a different opinion of what it really means. xD
RPG stands for Role Playing Game
As in you PLAY a ROLE. You assume a persona -- an alter ego in a world and PLAY it.
I don't see much of that going on even on so-called Role Playing Servers. (Now THEREs an example of how far the genre has strayed -- a Role Playing Game has to have Role Play servers).
If Bioware can bring the Role Playing back into MMOs I'm all for it. Because in the games I've played there is no role playing to speak of. To be fair it isn't just the players. Most of the games don't try very hard to promote role play. Oh they may have nice graphics (although games seem to be retreating from that too, which is a shame) and they'll probably have some backstory written up somewhere. You can take quests which would explain some aspect of lore for those who actually bother to read the text. Of course those are scripted quests and many people will just pull the walkthrough off the web somewhere. In all, the roleplay is so watered down as to be pretty much nonexistent.
I agree what a lot of what passes for quests are not role play. Such as killing 10 wolves. Now tradeskilling gets involved and it's no better -- gather 20 resources. Make 10 items.
As for hard core. To me a hard core player is someone who's willing to do pretty much anytthing to get to the end-game and devotes huge amounts of time to do it. Besides spending the huge amounts of time it may include other things too. Whatever is the optimum way to get as powerful as possible (hardcore players tend to concentrate on the optimum). Attention to lore and story just about never is an aid to getting to the end game so it tends to fall by the wayside. They invariably have the most developed toons of course. I've known some hardcore players personally and none of them had a life outside of gaming I'd want to have. Most were unemployed. One was living with his grandmother. Another had his own place but he did nothing but play games. I didn't catch how he was supported but he obviously was because he sure didn't have a job. Both of these guys were grown men.
Such people will certainly have the most developed toons since they do nothing but play games. I do not envy them.
I suspect it will be possible to play SWTOR in either a hardcore 80 hour a week mode or a more casual 15 hour a week mode. Perhaps in that game the hardcore players will care about story since paying attention to story will help your character to advance. Obviously the person who plays 80 hours a week will progress farther and faster then the one who plays 15 hours a week. I doubt I'll be envying them either.
I tend to believe for most folks it fluctuates. They may play heavy for 6 months, then slowly back off or leave the game, then start up again in another few months. It really is a rarity that you will see those 15 hour 7 days a week players doing that for 3 years straight. They are out there, and I think that’s what he means by hardcore.
MMO's have been screwed up by players like this for years, best if they are ignored for a change.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The current version is that the 'hardcore' player is the sadomasochist who only plays games that require you to have a full group to grind the same sapwn point for three days to reach level two, like in the 'good old days' of EQ. If there is a hint of the ability of players being allowed to play the game at their own pace, meaning less than eight hours a day, to gain a level within a month, then the game is carebear city and no real game would ever play it.
Basically, if you don't consider WoW to be the worst thing that ever happened to MMORPGs, then you aren't a hardcore gamer. You can be a proponent of games that are easier than WoW to advance in, and easier than WoW mechanics-wise, as long as you hate WoW.
It's why Vanguard's current playerbase can point to themselves as 'the only hardcore players left' even after their game has been remade into another version of WoW, where level advancement is as easy as entering your username and password in the log-in screen. It's also why current SWG players can pretend to be playing the only sandbox game on the market, because the only other game on the market is WoW. It is why the players of EQ2 can claim to be playing some sort of 'deep', 'involved' game, while playing a game that has been made to be as close to WoW as possible, while avoiding copywrite infringement.
'Hardcore' means whatever game the person who caims to be 'hardcore; is currently playing. It has the same meaning as 'real gamer' when the console folks are whining that some game or another is being released for the Wii, instead of, or in addition to, the Xbox or PS3.
'Hardcore' means 'shut up because I know better than you, even if the games I support are nowhere near successful'. It has no relevant meaning as far as any actuall discussion is concerned.
It has never meant that as far as CRPGs are concerned. The only relevance between the original definition and the CRPG definition is that the developers would like to be able to recreate that type of experience with a CRPG. MMORPGs get a lot closer to that definition, but the ability to have alternate characters nulifies it. MMORPGs and CRPGs are about the gameplay experience, not the player's ability to play a role in the gameworld.
The vast majority of MMO players don't play a role. They play themselves playing an avatar that is constrained by the game's mechanics. When gearing up to face the dungeon of a bit more evil than the last one, they discuss what happend to them outside the game, not the imaginary things their gnome got up to with the blonde half-elf at the local tavern.
Many players have several alts, all of them are basically themselves but with whatever abilities the class and/or race that character is has. Even on the supposed 'roleplaying' servers, you will find more converstaions about the players personal life than the character's.
So you all know! The reason I brought this up was not in some lame effort to glorify Hardcore vs casual. It was to point out that Bioware is focusing on the journey and not the Endgame. All mmos to date that has taken this route have failed.
You can say what you want about Blizzards games. But one thing that Blizzard always dose is suport their hardcore comunity. This comes as a top priority for them when they design games. Be it starcraft, Diablo or world of warcraft Blizzard is always at the top of its game when it comes to balance and challenge. I personally don't belive there is a casual market waiting to get taped. Most MMOers today are all semi Hardcore. If you play more then 2h a day you are not a Casual. And people always finish content faster then the developers thought they would. Also inside all of us is a mini maxer, everyone wants to get the best possible outcome when equipping and specing out their charecters. To believe anything else is to delude yourself.
With this in mind you should understand that going for a casual market, and then realizing that shit they finish our content to fast. Is going to be a mayor blow to Bioware. If you look at the 3 things that MMO players complain about the most, it is:
Once it becomes evident that the game is lacking, the forum wars will begin, and that will be the end of Bioware, as it was the end of AOC and WAR. both those games were good, but they failed to deliver on the 3 things that gamers want the most
It realy is that simple, if you want your mmo to stand a chans you need to fix those 3 things. If you dont you can kiss your game goodbye.....
Lack of content... well for a standard MMORPG I suppose you mean end-game content (raids, lairs, instances, that kind of stuff).
But TOR (as devs are saying at least) its suppose to be about STORY too. They said that the game will be HUGE for each class ... something like having a KOTOR 3 for jedi, a KOTOR 4 for bounty hunter, ....
If that really happens we will have 300+ hours of content on release. Now add the MMO stuff (crafting, instances, RP, chatting, raids, grind...). I dont think we will lack content!
As long the players dont try to go the route: okie I am *insert class*, I must grind until my eyes bleed to get to cap level this week (ignoring the big STORY part), we should be okie ;-) These guys will get bored fast and move on to another game.
There is not a single MMO currently on the market that has taken that route. There have been several that launched incomplete that have claimed the rest of the game would be added later, but that isn't the same thing. BioWare have said that the raiding and other end game mechanics common to MMOs will be included with TOR. Considering the endgame of every MMO is pretty much the same, focusing on the journey to the end game raiding is not a bad idea.
TOR is going to be a typical MMORPG, as far as game mechanics and systems are concerned. Where BioWare is attempting to differentiate their MMO for the rest is that they are adding class specific story based character advancement. It will be little more than the typical quest system, with a lot more words, all fully voiced. If they accomplish what they are claiming they intend to , it will make making alternate characters a lot less boring, while allowing the folks who only want to play their single character to raid for the best in-game gear, until the expansions come along, both boxed and micro transaction based.
Age of Conan has a small version of what BioWare is attempting in the Tortage portion of the game. Different class groups have a slightly different series of quests leading to leaving the newbie island. TOR is supposed to have a similar system from start to finish for each class, along with choices made along the way leading the story in a different direction, The result will likely be a flowchart or tree quest system, which, while not really any different mechanically for the rest, will treat the player to several different fully voiced 'go kill a dozen, not just rats, but giant harbringer creatures of doom!!!!!' experiences.
In essence, BioWare isn't tryong to reinvent the wheel, but they are trying to add thicker treads to the tires we already have. I for one hoe they succeed in doing so. Better storytelling in MMOs, not just TOr, would be a major improvement to the entire MMORPG inustry, fully voiced is optional.
Okay if we for arguments sake say that the average target group for TOR is a male between the age of 12-25.
This demographic is highly competitive and will strive to be the best in any game they play. Story means less here, E-peen and kicking arse and taking names are the most important thing.
Then we have the old school gamers age 26-40, many in this block are/where pen and paper RPGers
This demographic cares a great deal about story and immersion. But real life commitments and jobs keep many of them from playing as mush as the younger audience.
Now to me focusing on the road trip has always been boring, but some times needed both in games and films. It builds momentum for the climatic finish. A necessary Evil that when completed gives the end goal that mush more meaning. But if the end goal is lacking, not hardcore enough so to speak. The first ones there are going to start whining and moaning. Now the older players will probably play until the end to see for themselves. But the younger audience will listen to their friends, and if they say its uncool or lame, they will move on to other games.
This has happened in a lot of mmos Warhammer, AOC, Tabula Rasa and Hellgate London to name a few. The only thing the developers should focus on in my book is the endgame. People will endure a lot of shit if the Endgame is World class. Its just a road trip, it’s a destination from A-B that you need to travel. Who really cares what you do to get there, but if the end experience sucks, you feel cheated and fooled. And questions like why did I spend so mush time doing this only to get rewarded with this crap, will pop up in peoples heads. Mark my words it will happen and the forum post will start getting more and more negative until the word has spread far and wide that Biowares game is incomplete and lacking in content
The only reason there is a lack of content is because these MMOs now adays don't actually have any content other than a poorly disguised grind.
I have faith bioware will take care of bugs
As for number 3. I hope that they do NOT balance the game around PvP. God forbid you have classes that are stronger against certain classes and you have to work together in a massively MULTIPLAYER game to win a fight. -sigh-
The only reason there is a lack of content is because these MMOs now adays don't actually have any content other than a poorly disguised grind.
QFT
Honestly, with respect to the term 'hardcore' - there is nothing 'hardcore' about MMOs or players except perhaps the massive time investment some things take to complete. But this is not a particularly impressive feat tbh. As the above poster said, most MMOs have a severe lack of content (meaning story or game mechanics, something that actually deserves the name 'rpg').
So in essence the OP complains about a company that wants to put some meat on the bones that is online gaming because it will not satisfy his achiever-nature (grinding out levels for the warm fuzzy feeling of 'accomplishment')? whatever ^^
Anyway, it's still to far down the road to be saying much about TOR other than it will (hopefully) not make you kill 100 rats to get 5 tails... They will have raiding and PvP so there is bound to be stuff to do for people thatcomplete the different story arcs etc.
I think you slightly miss the point.
Firstly, they have said there will be end-game elements like raiding and PvP.
Secondly, you are describing how most MMOs are today. They are more about the destination rather than a journey. Bioware's most games are about journey. Hardcore players are in this manner going to be ignored. I am looking forward to this aspect in MMO.
I also like min-maxing, but to be honest, MMOs could use a little innovation how they handle the journey. Both pen and paper along with PC RPGs have a lot features that could benefit MMORPGs. The biggest MMO titles, that are DikuMUD-derived, unfortunately ignore many traditional RPG elements.
This will be, by all information so far, a quite different MMORPG. They have even hinted that it will not have a traditional subscription model.
Hardcore also do not translate to "good players", "skilled" or "pro". That is just a fallacy.
Thanks for bringing a little logic to this silly topic.
"Oi Bioware......what is this rubbish? I had to sit through countless minutes of someone saying stuff at me and the whole time whoever it was said..er...wotever it was they were saying......i couldnt hit stuff. Or jump and down. While hitting stuff. I hate your game. And i hate you. And ur family. And stuff......"
"Er.......yeah we did mention time and time again that Bioware is all about the experience and emotional involvement of your journey through our games, and we're attempting to stick with this ( so far very successful ) formula in the making of our MMO. I think if you know what Bioware is about and have enjoyed any of our previous rpg games to date, then you might have an understanding for what TOR will be and.....er.....hello.....mate....hellooooo....are you listening.........?"
"Spacebar....spacebar....spacebar......ffs look...i told u it doesn't.....oh er.....sorry, wot?"
My logic tells me this is great news, no grinding involved, less repeating and more fun your 1,2,3,4 arent worth shit to me, sorry but I think their illogical and like in 1 easy to overcome. I mean we have the potential of not just get a mmo with the creators of KotoR but also a mmo based on a storyline which combats grinding heavily. No more standing around some where killing mobs and waiting for them to spawn, no questline look to be made by a 5 year old.. fuck me this game looks better and better every day.
My logic tells me this is great news, no grinding involved, less repeating and more fun your 1,2,3,4 arent worth shit to me, sorry but I think their illogical and like in 1 easy to overcome. I mean we have the potential of not just get a mmo with the creators of KotoR but also a mmo based on a storyline which combats grinding heavily. No more standing around some where killing mobs and waiting for them to spawn, no questline look to be made by a 5 year old.. fuck me this game looks better and better every day.
That was pretty much a knock out punch. Game over for another mindless naysayer.
Currently Playing: World of Warcraft
You're getting it twisted.
Its the hardcore gamers that give a shit about story and lore.
We do the research, we read the lore and wierd shit off the websites, shit we run the fansites.
Its the casuals that play an hour a day and donlt know shit. Even when I was playing WoW there wasn;t one Hardcore player that I knew that didnt atleast know some of the lore, yet most of the casuals just played the game as there first mmo.
There's nothing wrong with being casual but don;t act like hardcore players are the disease of the genre.
sure some rush to endgame fast but these guys also have multiple alts and they do find enjoyment in the leveling game also.
Fuck dude, I've been playing MMOs when they were actually RPGs not freaking single player games with co-op dungeons like todays mmos.
Hilarious. I think everyone is going off their own version of "hardcore player". I see what you are saying, and I see what a lot of others are saying. Basicly some harcroe players do help the game and are a wealth of knowledge, some are just annoying. At any rate, it is good news that this game will not cater to the hardcore but will cater to the (in my definition) dedicated player.
Dedicated by my definition: Plays a couple hours a night after work, more on the weekends, is probably in a decent progressing guild with a mix of people/play styles, makes it to PvE raids, and participates in PvP. Has at least a weekly presence in the game and knows enough to be able to get newer players started or through tough spots.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
In order to be insulted, I must first value your opinion.
I love it when people talk out of their ass and make themselves look retarded before a game is even in any form of BETA.
http://sayoc.mybrute.com
From someone who isnt a huge fan of stars wars I'll likely stear clear of this mmo. Not because I dont think it will be good but because I saw a simliar game (lotro) slowly go down hill because the mmo was restricted to stay within the storyline to keep the avid fans happy. In lotro they added Moria, in which the player does nothing but fight orcs and goblins for 10 levels, not to say some dont enjoy Moria but for me I canceled my sub because I felt lotro would likely follow the same tread in the future to keep tolkien fans happy.
I feel that star wars will have a similar future. Big star wars fans will stick with the game because its star wars but the average gamer like myself will slowly find the world bland and boring because its the same thing over and over and over.
Personally, I'm staying away from books and movies made into MMOs because I dont feel a company can make a world that will live up to them. If I want a star wars or lotro fix I'll read the books or watch the movies, rather then waste my time in an mmo that does nothing but lessen the series.
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
I get quite tired of the complete obsession with "end game" that some people have. They hurry to the end so they can raid raid raid until their pants fall off. Why? I can't imagine anything more boring. I've been playing EQ2 for about 5 years and have yet to EVER reach the end game, and I've only raided TWICE because there's so much more to do.
How about you try to enjoy the journey? Thats what the game is all about, after all. We don't even know what form the end game will take. I hope to hell it isn't yet more damned aggravating raiding since thats all any of the current games areusing.
What makes a game succesful to me is, when it succeeds in giving me the idea that what i do is making a difference and my achievements are " eternal" .
It is great to go for " firsts" in a MMO; being the first to kill boss X. But it can also be equally awarding to be the best swords crafter, or the hunter with the best bow in game.
Others have different goals: forming a social guild, be the oneto figure out all the stat mechanics, or the one that explores areas 100%.
In my book you can be hardcore and have fun, and achieve anything of the above. These days hardcore has a rather negative tone to it, but being devoted to your hobby isnt always bad.
If hardcore means i have to be online 6 hours + a day to achieve anything, 40 hours + a week, then i am happy SWTOR will not focus on that kind of gameplay.
Currently playing browser games. Waiting for Albion Online, Citadel of Sorcery and Camelot Unchained.
Played: almost all MMO pre 2007
Agreed entirely...
This is exactly what I'm hoping for, an end to the requirement of massive amounts of time and people in the *hope* that you get a pair of gloves this week. That's not end-game content, that's the worst kind of grinding imaginable.
>_> <_< ^_^
I disagree. Casual players play about 2 hours a day 5x a week and about 8 hours on the weekend for a total of 18hrs a week so 0 - 18hrs is casual.
Hardcore players play 4 hours a day 5x a week and 20 hours on the weekend for a total of 40 hours a week. So from 18 - 40 hours a week is the Hrdcore market.
The hardcore market is in the minority.