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General: Arguments Against Permanent Death
Stradden
Managing EditorMember CommonPosts: 6,696
MMORPG.com managing Editor updates the Staff Blog with this look at permadeath and why it won't be a mainstream feature in an MMO any time soon.
It seems like the concept of permanent death is one that has been debated and turned over for years, with no real resolution. From what I can tell, there is a core group of people who are looking for a game that provides players the opportunity to permanently lose their characters in a game. I can see the upside to this particular feature, but honestly, of all of the features I’ve looked at in this blog, perma death is the one that presents the most obvious cons.
Like I said, I can see the benefit of perma death in an MMO. This particular feature would provide a unique gameplay experience where players are actually cautious rather than all about rushing in to every encounter. Then, when combat did break out, I would imagine that it would be an unequaled adrenaline rush for those involved. In short, for at least a short time, I can see a perma death game being entertaining.
Cheers,
Jon Wood
Managing Editor
MMORPG.com
Comments
Permadeath in any mmo would have to be handled very carefully. If a system was in place, like granting your dying character a death wish that could be passed on to the next one you create, it would make for a interesting dynamic. Say it happens that this death wish could grant your next-of-kin a revenge bonus against who ever killed him or all knowledge(skills) could be passed on, but all gear is lost. This could work.
Of course surnames would be permanent and first names would not be restricted, something in the line of Granado Espada. Anyway a system like this could never be tacked on to any MMO as it would have a ripple effect to all other aspects of the game in question. And in that regards a new system would have to be built specifically around this one feature and I doubt current developers would jump to tackle that endeavor.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
whats the lvl cap in those games - 2 ,3 ?
Perma-death is basically a time sink from the Devs which lacks creativity, and laziness, to put into their game contents. They punish you for mistake that you make, and thereby when you re-roll you spend more time and thus more money to them.
Many players will call this hardcore, but given that time that this is all they 've got, they have no choice.
If any comapnies have the money to spend than implement this in their new game and see how much subs they have...
RIP Orc Choppa
The prema-death option is available in every game. When you die, delete your character and create a new one. So if you believe in this option, man up and just do it.
LOL, Excellent point!
"Let’s, for the sake of brevity, look past the multitude of potential Customer Service issues and complaints that would be generated from issues like lag, greifing, hacks, cheats and the like"
While not discussing the above makes it easy to write up your arguments, which I do agree with, those issues that you did not discuss are what really prevents permanent death from being implemented in any major MMO. The issues that you discussed are relatively minor compared to those non discussed factors.
While not exactly an MMO or totally that great, Hellgate implemented an option for subscribed users to play the game with perma-death. In the event that you died, your character would turn into a ghost that could not interact with others.
One of the things I noticed that there were a number of people who played with perma-death, I also noticed that those folks also had a rather elitist attitude towards other players. The reasoning was you had to have sucked bad if you required the "crutch" of needing unlimited lives. Something I might add was that there, amazingly, were players who had not only hit the level cap while playing with perma-death, but did so on the hardest difficulty setting.
Two things I noticed about playing with a perma-death character were:
That being said, I really don't have an issue with perma-death when it's not forced. Having the feature available in a MMO could be quite interesting; but regardless the player or difficulty of the game, death tends to be inevitable in MMOs.
Perma-death only sits to remind my of the original Jedi from SWG, where it was a interesting attempt at balancing out a knowingly over-powered class. There is also the players in LOTRO who would re-roll a character if they died; completely dead set on achieving the, "You haven't died yet." titles that you could get.
That being said, perma-death would have to be a totally optional rule that is selected at character creation for it to be welcomed. Even then, some players would only want it if there was something to gain from having a perma-death character over one that is not; which in itself would be another issue to juggle.
You're talking about permalink in current MMOs though, and that wouldn't work, at least with a standard ruleset.
For permadeath to be doable two provisions would have to be in place:
1. It's harder for you to be killed. More hitpoints, states of death (damaged limbs, unconciousness - it has been really hard to be killed). If someone tries to gank you, you need to be able to run away and survive. From the other side of the fence, killing someone has to be a major event.
2. Leveling (assuming it's a level based game) has to be quicker. If you could level to max in a standard version of game in a month, you should be able to level to max in a week for example (before extras like talents or AAs).
If the game is built around the concept of permanent death, then it would work. Implementing perma-death in a typical WoWverquest clone would be a disaster.
I would love to play that kind of games now and then. I actaully enjoyed the hardcore of Diablo II. I would be more likely to enjoy trying the hardcore type in few of the MMOs out there. However, the death should always be an option/challage but not something to be forced upon people.
I do recall that in some of certain games that if you played hardcore;,you get extra boost/help. The boost usually mean faster experience gain, higher stats, better mob drops and what not. It would be nice if anyone could list some of the MMO that offer that kind of game play concept. I wish I remembered the MMO in question that had the game concept.
Playing-- Alantica Online DOO
Played--DAOC LOTR DOO AA EVE WAR SG
Tried-- WWII Online SWG
LOL, it's hard enough to launch and maintain a new MMORGP without adding permanent death to its features. The concept will appeal a whopping half dozen people. Next topic.
Actually it could work, as a player initiated option. No need for special servers or rulesets even.
Similar to being able to stop exp progression, you can simply "choose" your time of death. I can see many a roleplayer liking this system like this, allowing features such as reincarnation or passed down traits as one poster suggested.
Also, why not give your toon a tombstone and bury him in the family graveyard while we're at it? Maybe even a funeral service (GM event anybody?). This can and will be done.
Well a few folks in this thread understand, and of course, its obvious some others are totally missing the point.
If the game was designed so that your charcter could impart special bonuses to his "successor" based on his successes in a prevous life then the concept could work well.
If your first character lead a mostly PVE life, killing routine mobs and then happened to die, perhaps all he'd pass on to the next generation was a small amount of wealth. If he became a wealthy crafter or trader, perhaps in the next life he'd have access to crafting or marketing skill not available the first time around.
On the combat side, same thing, perhaps a life as a warlord, with a glorious record of battles and kills would result in the next life bringing ability to impart combat bonuses on his group or guildmates.
So many good things could be done with this mechanic if only the game was designed around it from the get go.
Which is why just deleting your character after dying in the current crop of MMO's doesn't cut it, there's no reward for such a death.
But add some glory to living a full and varied life before dying and well, I'm willing to bet you'd have more than few folks "dying to play"
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Well I just cant see it. Firt of all a lot of noobs would never get past level 4, then eventually give up.
Since every implementation that permadeath advocates pitch is a laundry list of ways they would make it neither permanent nor death, there is no real division between the groups - neither group wants permadeath.
- RPG Quiz - can you get all 25 right?
- FPS Quiz - how well do you know your shooters?
I can't believe only one person here so far has even mentioned the awesomeness that is Diablo2!
Hardcore mode on closed realms not only *made* that game, it kept it going for 5 yrs longer than it would have otherwise!
You kiddies here obviously never played it, otherwise there would be more _informed_ comments. Yes, D2 wasn't a mmo, but close enough for its time, hub-based 8 player limit & all (really, how many mmos these days even allow as many as 8 players in a party, pfft?). And yes, it was scream-out-loud & throw stuff frustrating when you're beloved character of months & months died due to lag, a pkscum or your own stoopidity. But, there was no other gaming experience like it. Real adrenaline, real fear, real fun!
If it wasn't for the 1.10 patch abortion, along with that Warden filthware that made the game unplayable on hardcore with lag spikes every 30-60 secs...I'd still be playing. Roll on D3!!! (though I'm not holding my breath given the appeal to popular demand & the ADD-instant-gratification console crowd attitudes prevalent in today's gaming world...).
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
do you understand that some people don't like adrenaline or fear? Not everyone is an adrenaline addict.
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
do you understand that some people don't like adrenaline or fear? Not everyone is an adrenaline addict.
Yes I do - those people played softcore BNet or defected to WoW.
And I must be an adrenaline junky just because I like a little excitement in my gaming every now & then? What does that make you lol?
They say that right before you die, your life flashes before your eyes. That's true, even for a blind man. ^DareDevil^
yup, a perma-death game would have to build its game around it. In a game like wow (takes months or even years to maximize your toon) it would be crazy.
In a game where you can achieve max level and gear to be able to compete in say afew weeks? it could work and could be very interesting i think. The only problem is that pvp/pve would have to be very balanced otherwise people would complain non-stop, without a doubt LOL
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
Perma-death is bad because, in an mmo TODAY, you won't make money. It would have to be very easy, as said before, to level up. Then the cost of having to roll would be less. Even then, losing all your gear? Yeah, not good.
People, especially casuals, play to have fun. Most people don't think of permanent loss of their character as having fun. Yes, some people would play, but if you want to have a good game and make money, it's not a good idea.
Better go back and read my first post, you missed the point somehow.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
With all the hardcore players embracing pvp games like DF, I still cannot understand why they have not demanded perma-death in those games, to earn their "hardcore" title.
You'd think that this would be a no brainer for devs to see.
"If failure has no price - what is the point of success?"
I like the idea of some sort of perma-death, because at the moment most games encourage the "rush in screaming and waving sword/axe/gun wildly until it works" approach. Asheron's Call, Diablo 2 both had interesting approaches which didn't put players off, but things like the WoW repair cost are a joke - the game and many like it are essentially zero-risk with the amount of money you earn through dailies etc.
I love the idea of hereditary characters - you successes on one directly influence the initial progression or gradual development of your next. That would be a way of introducing a bit more realism into the mortality process, whilst allowing people to retain the fruits of long hours of play and subscriptions paid.
This could be in the form of items or skills passed down, opportunities or resources "willed" to the next in line, faction bonuses - "we honour you for your father's deeds - Fruity, son of Gargleblaster" etc. In many games, you are virtually immortal and assuming you're not a total donut, you can practice and research and beat virtually any reasonable situation with no real penalty for the dozens of times you might fail.
Max