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What Went Wrong with Warhammer Online? A Postmortem.
arctarus
Member UncommonPosts: 2,581
A great article that someone share from warhammer alliance. Thought i'll share with you guys here..
www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/44427.aspx
Though i dont think the Dev can ever turn this game around, but hopefully for future games they dont make the same mistake..
Edit: Long read, but nice...
RIP Orc Choppa
Comments
Im sad that WAR failed, I was looking forward to it after AoC debacle.
My opinion: There's no turning back for WAR, they might gain some subs but the damage has been done. They keep the game alive maybe for 6 months or a year and EA will pull the plug.
WAR has tough times ahead, There are many MMO's launching that will grab even more players away from WAR.
I re-installed the game a few days ago and was tooling around the starter areas, there was a good amount of people there playing low level toons. I don't expect to see the starter areas filled to the brim as I am sure most players are at the top tiers but there seemed, to me anyway, that the game had a good number of people, at least in the starting zone. I still wish the game was doing much better though...
That Guild Wars 2 login screen knocked up my wife. Must be the second coming!
Lack of PVE content, Fortresses all being the same, T4 Lag is all murder to the game.
Also for a game like this it makes much more sense to have a 3rd Realm to make the action more dynamic. Look at DAOC for example.
You wanna know what went wrong with it? this was why.
Rule#1 - MMORPGs are PVE games with PVP elements, not the other way around.
Rule#2 - Any MMO that forces PVP fails.
Rule#3 - Enticing PVEers to PVP is different than forcing them to. NO scenario/idea that forces it has succeeded.
Rule#4 - The same as Rule#3 can be applied to RP - you cannot force it.
Rule#5 - Before you get lippy, remember Rule#1.
It failed rule number 1 and 2 and also 3. Warhammer online has a very poor pve part to it. and the fact it forces pvp to get decent gear that should be availble as mob drops is another reason it failed. Devs need to learn that pvp based mmorpg's just won't get the casual players. I like pvp myself, but I still have a retail warhammer online cd-key I haven't used. Thought the game sucked when I was in the early access part. Even though world of warcraft is a crappy game by most peoples standarts, its a mmorpg setup for the casual mmo player, that and the fact its by blizzard is why its doing so well.
I can only speak for myself.
For me WAR was just too dependent on a massive amount of players for all of its fun game mechanics.
You needed a ton of players Queueing in SCs for them to pop on the regular, you needed zones to be filled to maximum before you could enjoy PQs and dungeons same goes for Orvr.
Imo I had no issies with balance since I understood that this was a massive pvp game and not blanced on 1v1 and small skirmish pvp (anything under 5v5).
Great classes, Great looking zones, one of the only games where I truely hated the other faction)
You just can't create a game so reliant on population.
Oh and the minor stability of the game was a bummer as well, for a game only twice as good looking as WoW it shouldnt be as resource heavy as AoC.
Edit: to any posters in this thread complaining about lack of raids or dungeon content you weren't intended to even be playing WAR. This game is a pvp game lol. Pve in WAR equals PQs, crafting, quests and a few minor dungeons.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
For me, the first tier played too much like the last tier. Scenarios, keeps, city battles all played too much the same.
It just plan got boring.
And If you did anything in the game, the next day, if not hour, it was gone. Cap a keep, it will be uncapped in a few minutes, just so you can cap it again.
pvp was the reason i bought... got tiered of WoW pvp
those rules only apply PvE games and not PvP or in this case RvR
the reasons it failed are many to name some are lag,imbalance (both class and population wise), caster vs meele, wasnt done when they released it and still havent fixed it.... those are some of the reason
if u bought WAR to play PvE, then only one who fails is the person who did it
The end result is that warhammer was a great mmo on paper, but a very flawed game in execution.
The list of flaws is long. The lack of forethought is even longer. The lack of viable resolutions is long.
Warhammer is just a big example that throwing loads of money and developers at a project cannot speed up the process. Quality takes time and 2-3 years development time is unrealistic for a game of this size.
As to the pve content of the game, who cares if it is a pvp focused game. That is not an excuse to have terrible pve content. Why even have pve content in the first place if this was the attitude taken?
I don;t think the Pve content was bad in WAR.
The quests were like every other MMO, the PQs were fun, the dungeons were decent and the ToK was a blast.
I only had a problem with crafting since I enjoy more indpeth systems like they have in Ryzom, Eve, UO and SWG.
I've played alot of games that had worse Pve content most of the people complaining are the ones that want progression raids with ten tiers of sets to collect like WoW oh and lets not forget daily quests the WoW players part time job.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
i dont agree to th whole mmo's are PvE games with some pvp added. i play mmo's for PvP and personally i hate PvE and im sure alot of people tried WAR for that exact reason. been a lack of good pvp mmo's out so when one comes out everyone that isnt the raiding type from WoW or whatever wants to try it.
im my opinion WAR failed because of population issues. way to many servers at launch caused the general population of the game to be spread way to thin and you could never get any open world pvp started and it all became scenarios and you can get the same battleground instanced pvp "crap" in WoW.
Why play a PVP game if all it offer is the same kind of boring PvP that more rounded games with more content already has? Im sad it failed though and hoping aion will do better as a more pvp focused mmo
Aion won't its a korean grinder at its core so expect long grinds for levels that is boring as hell even more so than usual, so have fun grinding for days for one level XD. Just to go and get owned by someone a few levels higher. I got into the beta for aion and pretty much cancelled my pre-order after playing it for a day or 2. I wrote it off as generic korean grinder with above average graphics.
Very well done article. I agree with all the points he made. As not being a player of DAoC, my hopes were rather low for WAR. I remember getting in beta and was severly underwhelmed...graphics and artstyle were disappointing to say the least and the game played like a cheap WoW-rip off.
I bought the game anyways, hoping that my experience would change for the better. PQs were a great idea but the higher the tier, I noticed the less people would do them. And BGs were so unbalanced with the BW that it became no fun real fast.
I have to say, I had more fun with AoC than WAR, but I have since gone back and tried AoC and been bored out of my mind. For WAR, I think the sentiments "too little too late" sum up this one's demise very well.
Aion won't its a korean grinder at its core so expect long grinds for levels that is boring as hell even more so than usual, so have fun grinding for days for one level XD. Just to go and get owned by someone a few levels higher. I got into the beta for aion and pretty much cancelled my pre-order after playing it for a day or 2. I wrote it off as generic korean grinder with above average graphics.
well plaync or ncsoft or whatever have said the game is getting tweaked for EU/US release. im sure they know the western markets dont enjoy grinding as much as koreans do and will probably shorten it
Go DAOC2? Ok, well I am aloud to dream and hope. Besides UO, Dark Age of Camelot was the most fun I had ever had in an MMO to date and I have played them all. Hopefully next year will bring some good games, I have been on a break form games for 6 months now and I love it.....
Everything is self centered development crap for the give me everything generation from greedy companies.
Bunch of pussies
Peace
Ask some players if they would subscribe to warhammer if the RvR sieging was removed from the game. See how many people think it would survive on its pve merits alone. Hell keep the scenarios on top of that. Then say the pve in this game is as good as other games on the market that do much better than warhammer without the RvR aspect.
The mechanics of the quests are similar to other games yes, but the quality, diversity and story telling is years behind. Public quests are a cute concept that someday another company may flesh out, but they are a complete bore in warhammer after the novelty wears off. Like you said, "PQs were fun" and yes there were for a few levels. Then it turned into a boring repetitive grind.
If the pve was as good as other games (even without tiered raids and dailies that you like to belittle), then more people would play this game. Why wouldn't anyone play a game that has equal quality pve AND rvr pvp on top of that right? Obviously they don't.
Sure there are worse games on the market, but that doesn't make this good.
In my opinion, the article was spot on. He mentioned all of the reasons I left the game as well as others I was not even aware of.
I still can't understand why Mythic would have abandoned the game design concepts that were so successful from DAOC in favor of a WoW-clone model. You cannot out-WoW WoW. Haven't there already been enough games that attempted that and failed? I would have thought developers would learn by now...
This game had such potential. Its such a shame EA/Mythic royally screwed it.
Was actually pretty spot on, nice read.
Ask some players if they would subscribe to warhammer if the RvR sieging was removed from the game. See how many people think it would survive on its pve merits alone. Hell keep the scenarios on top of that. Then say the pve in this game is as good as other games on the market that do much better than warhammer without the RvR aspect.
The mechanics of the quests are similar to other games yes, but the quality, divercity and story telling is years behind. Public quests are a cute concept that someday another company may flesh out, but they are a complete bore in warhammer after the novelty wears off. Like you said, "PQs were fun" and yes there were for a few levels. Then it turned into a boring repetitve grind.
If the pve was as good as other games (even without tiered raids and dailies that you like to belittle), then more people would play this game. Why wouldn't anyone play a game that has equal quality pve AND rvr pvp on top of that right? Obviously they don't.
Sure there are worse games on the market, but that doesn't make this good.
If WARs pvp was ommited from the game noone would play it. The same can be said about omitting pve from wow and watching it die with its limiting pvp.
Whats so wrong with creating a game focused on a few mechanics? why can;t people just enjoy a pve or pvp focused game?
Are you new to MMOs? was WoW your first game where you need every MMO you play to be a jack of all trades mmo to even be interesting to you?
The MMO community as a whole needs to get that "we want everything" out of thier heads. It's proven that a game trying to copy wow fails, jack of all trades fail.
Look at eve its a pvp game and its successful, look at FFXI its a pve game and its successful. even lotro is making a good profit with its pve focused game.
I'm not saying WAR didnt have problems but people didn't leave the game due to lack of pve it was balance and stability issues and too many servers released at the start.
I didn;t see anyone in WAR say it needed more Raids.
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
Ask some players if they would subscribe to warhammer if the RvR sieging was removed from the game. See how many people think it would survive on its pve merits alone. Hell keep the scenarios on top of that. Then say the pve in this game is as good as other games on the market that do much better than warhammer without the RvR aspect.
The mechanics of the quests are similar to other games yes, but the quality, divercity and story telling is years behind. Public quests are a cute concept that someday another company may flesh out, but they are a complete bore in warhammer after the novelty wears off. Like you said, "PQs were fun" and yes there were for a few levels. Then it turned into a boring repetitve grind.
If the pve was as good as other games (even without tiered raids and dailies that you like to belittle), then more people would play this game. Why wouldn't anyone play a game that has equal quality pve AND rvr pvp on top of that right? Obviously they don't.
Sure there are worse games on the market, but that doesn't make this good.
If WARs pvp was ommited from the game noone would play it. The same can be said about omitting pve from wow and watching it die with its limiting pvp.
Whats so wrong with creating a game focused on a few mechanics? why can;t people just enjoy a pve or pvp focused game?
Are you new to MMOs? was WoW your first game where you need every MMO you play to be a jack of all trades mmo to even be interesting to you?
The MMO community as a whole needs to get that "we want everything" out of thier heads. It's proven that a game trying to copy wow fails, jack of all trades fail.
Look at eve its a pvp game and its successful, look at FFXI its a pve game and its successful. even lotro is making a good profit with its pve focused game.
I'm not saying WAR didnt have problems but people didn't leave the game due to lack of pve it was balance and stability issues and too many servers released at the start.
I didn;t see anyone in WAR say it needed more Raids.
Jesus christ, can you ever make one post without generalizing or drawing assumptions about the people posting instead of just the topic? Seriously you have a something negative to blame on people for any unsupported theory you wish to dream up.
I've been playing mmos since UO since it is so vital to your opinion on how warhammer should work. Happy?
I highlighted in red the point you are missing. You say warhammers pve is equal to the rest of the market and in the same breath call wows pvp limited. So if warhammers pve is the same as everything else and much better pvp, then why does the game continue to merge server after server?
I will tell you why, because the pve does suck and to some people that mattered. On top of that warhammer struggle to achieve the rvr/pvp it sets out to do. There is little that the game actually does well in a grand sense of things. It does some nice things here and there, but overall it falls flat in just about everything it sets out to do. That includes the pve which you so glibly gloss over as unimportant, because somehow the focus is pvp. As if that justifies dull uninspiring gameplay to anything not directly related to pvp. That was my point.
A good read, I agree mostly with all of the authors points. The only big one I would add to it is "lack of warhammer-ness", the warhammer universe is huge, has great fiction and is an awesome world...Mythic delivered a dumbed-down, kidified and vastly diminished world.
Traffic shaping by Isp is also a nice WAR killer.
Ask some players if they would subscribe to warhammer if the RvR sieging was removed from the game. See how many people think it would survive on its pve merits alone. Hell keep the scenarios on top of that. Then say the pve in this game is as good as other games on the market that do much better than warhammer without the RvR aspect.
The mechanics of the quests are similar to other games yes, but the quality, divercity and story telling is years behind. Public quests are a cute concept that someday another company may flesh out, but they are a complete bore in warhammer after the novelty wears off. Like you said, "PQs were fun" and yes there were for a few levels. Then it turned into a boring repetitve grind.
If the pve was as good as other games (even without tiered raids and dailies that you like to belittle), then more people would play this game. Why wouldn't anyone play a game that has equal quality pve AND rvr pvp on top of that right? Obviously they don't.
Sure there are worse games on the market, but that doesn't make this good.
If WARs pvp was ommited from the game noone would play it. The same can be said about omitting pve from wow and watching it die with its limiting pvp.
Whats so wrong with creating a game focused on a few mechanics? why can;t people just enjoy a pve or pvp focused game?
Are you new to MMOs? was WoW your first game where you need every MMO you play to be a jack of all trades mmo to even be interesting to you?
The MMO community as a whole needs to get that "we want everything" out of thier heads. It's proven that a game trying to copy wow fails, jack of all trades fail.
Look at eve its a pvp game and its successful, look at FFXI its a pve game and its successful. even lotro is making a good profit with its pve focused game.
I'm not saying WAR didnt have problems but people didn't leave the game due to lack of pve it was balance and stability issues and too many servers released at the start.
I didn;t see anyone in WAR say it needed more Raids.
Jesus christ, can you ever make one post without generalizing or drawing assumptions about the people posting instead of just the topic? Seriously you have a something negative to blame on people for any unsupported theory you wish to dream up.
I've been playing mmos since UO since it is so vital to your opinion on how warhammer should work. Happy?
I highlighted in red the point you are missing. You say warhammers pve is equal to the rest of the market and in the same breath call wows pvp limited. So if warhammers pve is the same as everything else and much better pvp, then why does the game continue to merge server after server?
I will tell you why, because the pve does suck and to some people that mattered. On top of that warhammer struggle to achieve the rvr/pvp it sets out to do. There is little that the game actually does well in a grand sense of things. It does some nice things here and there, but overall it falls flat in just about everything it sets out to do. That includes the pve which you so glibly gloss over as unimportant, because somehow the focus is pvp. As if that justifies dull uninspiring gameplay to anything not directly related to pvp. That was my point.
First of all calm yourself before you have a heart attack.
Second, You brought up what people may say if WAR ommitted pvp not me.
Third, I don't give a shit what MMO you played.
I never said WARs pve was just as good as every other games, I said it wasnt bad and i've seen other games with worst (i never said which ones).
News flash buddy, WAR is a pvp game if your leaving due to lack of pve stuff then you don't belong in game.
I don;t log into FFXI and bitch on the forums because it lacks pvp, same for lotro.
Edit: when you actually played UO did you also bitch due to lack of pve? wait maybe you were a pro-Trammel player......
Playing: EvE, Ryzom
I totally agree
Warhammer when i was a kid was kind of a gothic dark world and what you had in warhammer online is a blatent copy of WoW style
For me the real fail with warhammer is that rather build on the depth of franchise it had and create a working living world it just made it very much into a childrens game to try and steal the WoW wave. The Irony is that the warcraft games originally always seemed a poor mans warhammer to me.
Sadly its the same story for game after game..someone make a actual RPG agian please!
Playing: EvE, Ryzom