From someone who isnt a huge fan of stars wars I'll likely stear clear of this mmo. Not because I dont think it will be good but because I saw a simliar game (lotro) slowly go down hill because the mmo was restricted to stay within the storyline to keep the avid fans happy. In lotro they added Moria, in which the player does nothing but fight orcs and goblins for 10 levels, not to say some dont enjoy Moria but for me I canceled my sub because I felt lotro would likely follow the same tread in the future to keep tolkien fans happy. I feel that star wars will have a similar future. Big star wars fans will stick with the game because its star wars but the average gamer like myself will slowly find the world bland and boring because its the same thing over and over and over. Personally, I'm staying away from books and movies made into MMOs because I dont feel a company can make a world that will live up to them. If I want a star wars or lotro fix I'll read the books or watch the movies, rather then waste my time in an mmo that does nothing but lessen the series.
Unbelievable... I left LOTRO for WoW partly because Moria introduced aliens (Foundations of Stone) and elemental mages (Runekeepers) and yet another ^*%*ing giant tortoise. They also screwed with the timeline by having the dwarves reclaim Moria way before they ought. Turbine mangled the lore and were actually trying to please people like *you*, so it is ironic to read such a post.
They were warned too about failing to please either type of player. Such a pity.
Anyhoo, regarding Star Wars... umm, it is a whole galaxy... you know, far far away. It is not one world, but many star systems. If your disatisfaction with LOTRO was the abundance of orcs and goblins, then I really don't see your point. The creative freedom Star Wars devs have is enormous, especially regarding what we fight. You'll undoubtedly see some orcs even. In fact, give me just ONE example of something you would really (really!) want to see in a Star Wars game, but would be prevented by the lore? Magical wands?
On topic... some very good posts in this thread. The comments from the developers about hardcore players means (I think) that the kind of player that looks to replace acheivement and purpose in life with a sense of acheivement and purpose from an online game will struggle to find this in TOR. Those who want a strong link between effort and reward (distinction from the rest of the player base) will be unhappy. Heck, a player who even thinks about playing a game as "effort" that needs to be rewarded might find something missing in TOR.
From someone who isnt a huge fan of stars wars I'll likely stear clear of this mmo. Not because I dont think it will be good but because I saw a simliar game (lotro) slowly go down hill because the mmo was restricted to stay within the storyline to keep the avid fans happy. In lotro they added Moria, in which the player does nothing but fight orcs and goblins for 10 levels, not to say some dont enjoy Moria but for me I canceled my sub because I felt lotro would likely follow the same tread in the future to keep tolkien fans happy. I feel that star wars will have a similar future. Big star wars fans will stick with the game because its star wars but the average gamer like myself will slowly find the world bland and boring because its the same thing over and over and over. Personally, I'm staying away from books and movies made into MMOs because I dont feel a company can make a world that will live up to them. If I want a star wars or lotro fix I'll read the books or watch the movies, rather then waste my time in an mmo that does nothing but lessen the series.
Unbelievable... I left LOTRO for WoW partly because Moria introduced aliens (Foundations of Stone) and elemental mages (Runekeepers) and yet another ^*%*ing giant tortoise. They also screwed with the timeline by having the dwarves reclaim Moria way before they ought. Turbine mangled the lore and were actually trying to please people like *you*, so it is ironic to read such a post.
They were warned too about failing to please either type of player. Such a pity.
Anyhoo, regarding Star Wars... umm, it is a whole galaxy... you know, far far away. It is not one world, but many star systems. If your disatisfaction with LOTRO was the abundance of orcs and goblins, then I really don't see your point. The creative freedom Star Wars devs have is enormous, especially regarding what we fight. You'll undoubtedly see some orcs even. In fact, give me just ONE example of something you would really (really!) want to see in a Star Wars game, but would be prevented by the lore? Magical wands?
On topic... some very good posts in this thread. The comments from the developers about hardcore players means (I think) that the kind of player that looks to replace acheivement and purpose in life with a sense of acheivement and purpose from an online game will struggle to find this in TOR. Those who want a strong link between effort and reward (distinction from the rest of the player base) will be unhappy. Heck, a player who even thinks about playing a game as "effort" that needs to be rewarded might find something missing in TOR.
Well, we can hope.
Meh, sounds like another lotro fail story to me...LOL. No end-game? Geared towards casual gamers? Thats what Turbine tried and failed horribly at it. But then again this is a different company so who knows how they'll run it. I do wish star wars the best though, but i won't be fooled into playing it.
It all comes down to how well the company listens to the players. Because if they don't, the population will slowly decrease and it will become just another average mmorpg just as lotro is these days, with the avid fans sucked into the title keeping it running.
I believe there will be a game for the hardcore cuse if every class has it's own story and there are multiple paths to go down in one class then the hardcore will play every single class multiple times.
Also casual is someone who isn't really into games but buysthe odd one or two a year. Casual is someone who doesn't play an mmorpg every week. I mean I have mates who play 1 game a year and I'd call that casual. I have a friend who will play World of Warcraft a couple times a month when he gets the chance to and I think that is casual.
If you're dedicating hours each week to a game then I don't believe that is casual but more moderate gaming. The hardcore is someone who will devote each day to that game.
Also casual is someone who isn't really into games but buysthe odd one or two a year. Casual is someone who doesn't play an mmorpg every week. I mean I have mates who play 1 game a year and I'd call that casual. I have a friend who will play World of Warcraft a couple times a month when he gets the chance to and I think that is casual.
If you're dedicating hours each week to a game then I don't believe that is casual but more moderate gaming. The hardcore is someone who will devote each day to that game.
Your friend who plays WoW a couple times a month, if he maintains his sub regardless, is not considered casual by development companies - he's considered comatose. Which, and again I submit this IF he's maintaining his monthly subscription, is the best kind of gamer... doesn't complain, doesn't take hardware resources, keeps the money coming in. While your definition of hardcore is partially correct, if a bit vague, many people consider themselves casual who do devote a little time each day to play. Personally, I'm long since past that, as I haven't had any time to "devote" in over 3 years or so. But I can still log in from time to time, sometimes daily other times weekly, and never for very long, but even when I was able to play nightly week after week I was never a hardcore player. That definition is usually reserved for people who do everything short of game the system (though many do that as well) to succeed in the game, and is blessedly NOT the target audience for this game.
After reading the latest Swedish PC gamer for agust 2009. I stumbled across an artical about The old Republic. Sadly on page 3 Gordon Walton gets quoted for saying this, "We have to ignore the Hardcore players in Star wars the old Rebublic", refering to the players who will ignore the story and mini max their charecters to the TOP. This is one of the most stupidest things I'v heard, he really drops the ball on this one. Expect no working endgame in The old republic. What Walton fails to realize is that 50% or more of the markets players are going to try and mini max thier charecters. When they find that once the story ends the game has little to offer them. The forum moaning and whining will commence, and the end result of that we have seen before just look at AOC and WAR. No working endgame or a buggy one leads to cancelled subs and mass exodus. Onse TOR gets a bad rep its doomed and no amount of after release fixes will save them....... Now this is only speculation, they might have a fantastic endgame. But saying you will not suport the hardcore often means the game is lacking in some way. Might be the balance, might be missing content after hitting max level or underdeveloped crafting. Whatever the case is Bioware is setting themself up for a mayor disaster if they ignore the Hardcore players. The reasons for this are simple
Hardcore players push games to the limit, they sniff out bugs, imbalances and they show the way for the masses, doing server firsts etc Also the Human psyche with its pack mentality needs people that spearhead, being the best at something. Look at sports if we all could do everything we would not have athletes breaking records and pushing the boundries. This is also true about science, where would we be today without those people??? And take the game Poker for example millions of people would not be playing it if it wernt for the Pro players that show that the game actually involves some skill. Good players are needed to make a game successful, if its just filled with average joes it will not be a thrilling experience.
No I think the hardcore player will stay in SWG and whine about PRE-NGE till they grow old. So if you want hardcore I think that is the place to be
I really wish that the guy who had made the hardcore quote had been a bit more specific about what he actually meant by it.
Hardcore has become one of those silly little labels that people toss around and like to adopt in order to glorify their playstyle and belittle others; it's a meaningless term purely because no two people can actually entirely agree on its meaning.
For me, I'm assuming that the guy was referring to those people who play 40+ hours a week (that's double the playtime of the "average" gamer) and rush through the levelling process to get to the "endgame" content, since TOR is so clearly putting so much effort into enriching the 1-to-whatever segment of the game.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
I really wish that the guy who had made the hardcore quote had been a bit more specific about what he actually meant by it. Hardcore has become one of those silly little labels that people toss around and like to adopt in order to glorify their playstyle and belittle others; it's a meaningless term purely because no two people can actually entirely agree on its meaning. For me, I'm assuming that the guy was referring to those people who play 40+ hours a week (that's double the playtime of the "average" gamer) and rush through the levelling process to get to the "endgame" content, since TOR is so clearly putting so much effort into enriching the 1-to-whatever segment of the game.
Yes you are right i droped the ball on this one. I did a second post were I said the Idea of this thread was not say that Hardcore is better then casual. But lets face facts 80% of the comunity are in my book hardcore!
Anyone spending 15h plus playing a game each week is hardcore in my book. 15h a week makes 60h a month, that is more then one working week spent playing a game. And I dont think developers at TOR understand that about 80% of the comunity spend so mush time playing. They will run out of content and people will start complaining.
If Im wrong and I hope that I am there will be no problems. But it will take a massive amount off effort and a really big budget to make a fully voiced over game last more then a Month for the avrage MMO gamer....
I never reroll for example just isent in my play style to have 5+ alts on the same server, so im not interested in playing all the Classes. Many others are like me, we hit the endgame and we stay there. I dont think the developers know what their audiance wants, and they will pay big time when it becomes clear they focused to mush on the ride and not so mush on the END...
Plus as I have said before Blizzard has 10m subs, Blizzard always focus on the Hardcore first. They have said it countless of times, "we look at our most dedicated players, and we make a game for them, the rest will follow", It has proven to bring them success again and again. Also EvE, that grows year by year focuses on the Most Hardcore players in their game, to ignore your truest fans is just STUPID. For BoiWare to say they wont focus on this means they do not intend to be a serious contender in the MMO market. They have thrown in the towel before it even began....
Im not trying to whine here, Im just pointing out Facts, those games that grow in this genre have a Hardcore mindset, those that fail, try in vain to appeal to a mythical ( it dosent exist) mass of people that they call Casuals. I would go so far as to say that there arn't many people playing MMOS that can be called casuals. Take WAR for example they made Public quest, fast travel to instanced pvp and Easy crafting all to cater to this mythical creature "the Casual". What happend? they FAILED..... and so will BioWare if they for one instant belive that there is such a thing called a Casual gamer.....
I really wish that the guy who had made the hardcore quote had been a bit more specific about what he actually meant by it. Hardcore has become one of those silly little labels that people toss around and like to adopt in order to glorify their playstyle and belittle others; it's a meaningless term purely because no two people can actually entirely agree on its meaning. For me, I'm assuming that the guy was referring to those people who play 40+ hours a week (that's double the playtime of the "average" gamer) and rush through the levelling process to get to the "endgame" content, since TOR is so clearly putting so much effort into enriching the 1-to-whatever segment of the game.
Yes you are right i droped the ball on this one. I did a second post were I said the Idea of this thread was not say that Hardcore is better then casual. But lets face facts 80% of the comunity are in my book hardcore!
Anyone spending 15h plus playing a game each week is hardcore in my book. 15h a week makes 60h a month, that is more then one working week spent playing a game. And I dont think developers at TOR understand that about 80% of the comunity spend so mush time playing. They will run out of content and people will start complaining.
If Im wrong and I hope that I am there will be no problems. But it will take a massive amount off effort and a really big budget to make a fully voiced over game last more then a Month for the avrage MMO gamer....
I never reroll for example just isent in my play style to have 5+ alts on the same server, so im not interested in playing all the Classes. Many others are like me, we hit the endgame and we stay there. I dont think the developers know what their audiance wants, and they will pay big time when it becomes clear they focused to mush on the ride and not so mush on the END...
Plus as I have said before Blizzard has 10m subs, Blizzard always focus on the Hardcore first. They have said it countless of times, "we look at our most dedicated players, and we make a game for them, the rest will follow", It has proven to bring them success again and again. Also EvE, that grows year by year focuses on the Most Hardcore players in their game, to ignore your truest fans is just STUPID. For BoiWare to say they wont focus on this means they do not intend to be a serious contender in the MMO market. They have thrown in the towel before it even began....
Im not trying to whine here, Im just pointing out Facts, those games that grow in this genre have a Hardcore mindset, those that fail, try in vain to appeal to a mythical ( it dosent exist) mass of people that they call Casuals. I would go so far as to say that there arn't many people playing MMOS that can be called casuals. Take WAR for example they made Public quest, fast travel to instanced pvp and Easy crafting all to cater to this mythical creature "the Casual". What happend? they FAILED..... and so will BioWare if they for one instant belive that there is such a thing called a Casual gamer.....
Ive never been that interested with alts really, unless Im considering a class change about 50% or less of the max lvl. Hasnt had any alts in the endgame lvl, ex 80 and 80 for.. err WoW (uhm which I dont play so give me a break) but then again Ive never played a storybased MMO before. I mean sure there were quests but.. well you dont exactly do them because they are fun to, you do it for the exp/rewards, this is what I hope TOR will be different.
I hope and expect a good storyline in same spirit as the KoToR games, with good dialogues, options and fun gameplay. There will be different followers/companions to choose from, each with their own story and interaction/like KotoR and so on, I expect KotoR like functions.
So this game might be short? Well first off all I think I red that the max lvl is 600 or something, itl take years to achieve and if you talk to the dev of TOR they tell you its not meant to either but back on the track. This game will not be just one game Ive come to understand but will be completly different wether you choose a jedi/sith, bounty hunter etc. That means that unlike every other mmo to date with a non existant boring storyline with very similar experiences, ex same npcs, mostly same quests etc TOR will offer a complete new experience, maybe itl be some or all of the former planets and places to be, but with a unique new story line, new npcs, different monologues and options it will be well worth playing with alts because in some remarks its a whole new game.
Maybe Im hoping for too much, it has happened before (AoC for one) but this is what they strive to be and if they keep those promises itl be a mmo in my taste and something definetily worth staying with for years to come.
Me, im not an harcore gamer, but im more of an hardcore gamer who play sandbox pvp games with full loot.
What i like about those games is that the grind is not hard to max. After a while, the whole game is about risk vs reward so advance your character and downgrade him happen everytime. So there is no reason to quit those kind of game because they dont have any endgame. Once you are in, you do anything you want. You dont need to be hardcore at grinding, but you need to be an hardcore killer to keep progressing. Hardcore crafter to help your team when they lose their items and an hardcore guild leader to have a zerg guild. In those sandbox game, you grind to regen only so you can be ready to fight again after death. Some sandbox games have a flagging system and stats loss so its even more intersting. The action never end. Also, the devs do not change the world, but only the players can change the feeling of the world with politic or anything else like castle war or build housing every where around the world. Devs can focus on balancing the game, add new feature, but they do not need to add new monsters every time or add thousand of new dungeons. Those sandbox games focus on players before anything else.
About starwars, it have none of the feature i mentioned. Its a them park game like wow. You lose nothing in that game. You only win price. In that case, they need to think about the harcore croud too because after 1 year, the players who buyed the game from the 1st day of release will start to whine in the forum like the OP mentioned and they might go back to wow again.
Me, i dont like them parks game because of the grind, but i will enjoy kotor just because of that. It had been made for the casual gamers who like the story and can go to the end game at a good amount of time and keep up with the newest update without playing 24-7 like a no life. By hardcore, i think you are aiming at no life players. At least, we will have a them park game good enough for us, players who play around 3 hours every days.
The OP tries to claim that hardcore gamers are a market Bioware should pursue. Furthermore that ALL hardcore gamers are min-maxers who only care about stat and grinding to the endgame to then raid until the next expansion.
It is a market but it is also a market that is saturated with every single MMO out there. Bioware does NOT do grinders, it is an RPG company. They tell and sell stories. If you min-maxed in Kotor or Baldur's gate, you were a fool. You should have played those games for the joy of playing a role and seeing the story develop.
The claim is that SWTOR will aim to recreate the feeling of playing an RPG but one where you are not always alone. How they will do this, I don't know. I don't even know wether they can pull it off. According to a recent update on SWTOR, smugglers can have side-kicks who crack jokes and such. So more then just a pet, this suggests that there should be a lot of times when your side-kick has a reason for saying something. After all, if three smugglers team up, you don't want all their side-kicks to constantly spout the same lines.
The idea that a MMORPG has to have an endgame shows exactly why a company would be wise to attract a different audience. How about this for an endgame. ROLL A NEW CHARACTER AND SEE A DIFFERENT SIDE OF THE STORY?
I would rather have a MMO with no endgame but a beautiful journey then a game with yet more endless raiding for a bit of loot to enable more raiding for a bit of loot.
There are a ton of games out that should satisfy the OP. Can at least one game be different? I think that bioware is smart for trying something different. They have proven themselves to be masters of the RPG, perhaps they are the company that can makes those three letters have some meaning in MMORPG.
50% of statistics are made up on the spot. The OP tries to claim that hardcore gamers are a market Bioware should pursue. Furthermore that ALL hardcore gamers are min-maxers who only care about stat and grinding to the endgame to then raid until the next expansion. It is a market but it is also a market that is saturated with every single MMO out there. Bioware does NOT do grinders, it is an RPG company. They tell and sell stories. If you min-maxed in Kotor or Baldur's gate, you were a fool. You should have played those games for the joy of playing a role and seeing the story develop. The claim is that SWTOR will aim to recreate the feeling of playing an RPG but one where you are not always alone. How they will do this, I don't know. I don't even know wether they can pull it off. According to a recent update on SWTOR, smugglers can have side-kicks who crack jokes and such. So more then just a pet, this suggests that there should be a lot of times when your side-kick has a reason for saying something. After all, if three smugglers team up, you don't want all their side-kicks to constantly spout the same lines.
The idea that a MMORPG has to have an endgame shows exactly why a company would be wise to attract a different audience. How about this for an endgame. ROLL A NEW CHARACTER AND SEE A DIFFERENT SIDE OF THE STORY? I would rather have a MMO with no endgame but a beautiful journey then a game with yet more endless raiding for a bit of loot to enable more raiding for a bit of loot. There are a ton of games out that should satisfy the OP. Can at least one game be different? I think that bioware is smart for trying something different. They have proven themselves to be masters of the RPG, perhaps they are the company that can makes those three letters have some meaning in MMORPG.
Story is good, but too much story over anything for an mmorpg is the the best way to do it. Aoc tried and they failed at it. Wow put a good amount of story and you advance. For me, story are good for single player games. For an mmorpg, i will try to skip it because i like more to make my own story with my friends or other random players. For exemple, you got the rpers. Bioware for their mmorpg seem to miss the social part of the game. I heard a lot about solo stuff solo story and i even heard that a solo player can max the whole game. If i would want to play solo, why should i pay per month for that mmorpg?
Oblivion already proved that a full voiced game can put a huge limit. For an mmorpg, its more a waste of time, it add a limit to the gameplay experience and its a waste of time. Thi
s is one of the reason why it will take a lot of time to develope that game even if bioware got a lot of money team up with lucas art. What do you think will happen in the near future when the game come out? Many players will do anything that they could do and wait for the next patch or expension. Next patch for new zone, new boss, new dungeon and what ever will take a lot of time because of the waste of time on adding story, bullshit cinematics over cinematics, actors with new dialogues. While they focus on that, the wow devs will already get the time to add many stuff. What will happen?
Each starwars players will cancel their acc, go back to wow to grind again, kill new boss with their team of 40+,get new pvp gears, new pvp zone or BG's and wow would already get the time to copy an other game like they did with EQ2, but instead, they will add it in wow too. Starwars, so late they will be and already are, they will finally add a new patch, the wow players will re-active their accounts and once they done with the new stories, go back to wow again for the new patch just in time.
I heard that the starwars folks claim that they will be the wow killer. Hell no. They will stand in the wow shadow and get out for a small amount of time for each expension they put out.
SFC, what you failed on your belief is that since you know in starwars, there will be pvp, there will be grinders either. You have to max out to be a competitive pvper. If the starwars folks are not fast enough for both stories, actor dialogue, what ever what ever, no space yet and the pvp, they will be the last on the list just near AOC i think. Anyone want to prove are strong they are. So they will grind and grind and try to be the best of the server and try to prove something. Yelling that we killed darth vader is nothing new since all the players can kill him, but being the best pvp is a unique event. You are the only one. Who is the next champion? There is revenge. Ho, you just killed me. So fuck the story. I will grind and in my turn, i will kill you so you better not sleep to make be get pass you. As long there is pvp, there will be grind over stories.
Whatever the case is Bioware is setting themself up for a mayor disaster if they ignore the Hardcore players. The reasons for this are simple
Hardcore players push games to the limit, they sniff out bugs, imbalances and they show the way for the masses, doing server firsts etc Also the Human psyche with its pack mentality needs people that spearhead, being the best at something. Look at sports if we all could do everything we would not have athletes breaking records and pushing the boundries. This is also true about science, where would we be today without those people??? And take the game Poker for example millions of people would not be playing it if it wernt for the Pro players that show that the game actually involves some skill. Good players are needed to make a game successful, if its just filled with average joes it will not be a thrilling experience.
Get over yourself.
Just because a person is unemployed, lives with mom, and can zerg a raid target doesn't make them a good player. Keep on thinking the "basement dwellers" are the ones who make the MMO world move. Its the ones with jobs that are paying the majority of subscriptions.
Sorry RealBigDeal, you seem to believe that every MMORPG must appeal to the same broad group of players to succeed.
You even say the WoW has story.... that makes it very clear where you stand. Frankly, I don't think you are going to like SWTOR.
It is KOTOR online. Not Jedi Knight online (the old FPS series). Bioware is a STORY company. Do you play Mass Effect skipping the dialog to get to the end game quickly? Seems to me to be missing the point.
Bioware would be foolish to try to create a WoW-clone. It would throw away all their experience in telling a story for what? Yet another WoW-clone that just doesn't compete? We have had far to many of those.
No, if bioware is smart they try to create their own game, building on what they are best at.
What you don't seem to get is that in WoW you can never be hero, you can never become truly great. Why? Because it has no end. There is always another 10 levels in the next expansion that have to feature yet more power-ups.
It is the reason Dungeons and Dragons Online failed. MMORPG players are used to get rewarded with new levels and skills all the time but not actually get any more powerful. A prime example in this is Lord of the Rings online. In the very beginning you fight some mice and nearly die and at level 60 you fight some mice and nearly die.
This is NOT the case in single player RPG or for that matter D&D pen and paper games. A lvl 20 D&D character is a demi-god and has nothing to fear from lesser mortals. At the end of kotor you are a jedi-master or sith lord and nothing stands in your way.
But you can't continue with a high level in D&D. Expand it to level 30 and you would have to create stories around genesis, your character creating summoning new universes into existence rather then a spectral wolf. For the typical bioware RPG, the character has an END. Their is no endgame, just an end.
It would be VERY hard to do both an intresting story and not have an end to it. If they cater for your kind of gameplay, where the endgame is the only thing, then they would also have to give up on any character development, any plot progress. You might like to raid the same instance over and over for some loot, but that ain't story telling.
Do yourself a favor and PLAY a bioware game. It will hopefully become clear that there are other gamers out there, gamers who don't like WoW and who are numerous enough to be their own market.
An MMORPG can do two things, either steal WoW players OR create their own customers. We seen what happens with the games that tried to copy WoW. Meanwhile games like Eve have gone a completly different direction and prospored as a result.
Basically, you think SWTOR needs wow players to survive. I think WoW players might actually be the worsed treat to SWTORS success.
Sorry RealBigDeal, you seem to believe that every MMORPG must appeal to the same broad group of players to succeed. You even say the WoW has story.... that makes it very clear where you stand. Frankly, I don't think you are going to like SWTOR. It is KOTOR online. Not Jedi Knight online (the old FPS series). Bioware is a STORY company. Do you play Mass Effect skipping the dialog to get to the end game quickly? Seems to me to be missing the point. Bioware would be foolish to try to create a WoW-clone. It would throw away all their experience in telling a story for what? Yet another WoW-clone that just doesn't compete? We have had far to many of those. No, if bioware is smart they try to create their own game, building on what they are best at. What you don't seem to get is that in WoW you can never be hero, you can never become truly great. Why? Because it has no end. There is always another 10 levels in the next expansion that have to feature yet more power-ups. It is the reason Dungeons and Dragons Online failed. MMORPG players are used to get rewarded with new levels and skills all the time but not actually get any more powerful. A prime example in this is Lord of the Rings online. In the very beginning you fight some mice and nearly die and at level 60 you fight some mice and nearly die. This is NOT the case in single player RPG or for that matter D&D pen and paper games. A lvl 20 D&D character is a demi-god and has nothing to fear from lesser mortals. At the end of kotor you are a jedi-master or sith lord and nothing stands in your way. But you can't continue with a high level in D&D. Expand it to level 30 and you would have to create stories around genesis, your character creating summoning new universes into existence rather then a spectral wolf. For the typical bioware RPG, the character has an END. Their is no endgame, just an end. It would be VERY hard to do both an intresting story and not have an end to it. If they cater for your kind of gameplay, where the endgame is the only thing, then they would also have to give up on any character development, any plot progress. You might like to raid the same instance over and over for some loot, but that ain't story telling. Do yourself a favor and PLAY a bioware game. It will hopefully become clear that there are other gamers out there, gamers who don't like WoW and who are numerous enough to be their own market. An MMORPG can do two things, either steal WoW players OR create their own customers. We seen what happens with the games that tried to copy WoW. Meanwhile games like Eve have gone a completly different direction and prospored as a result. Basically, you think SWTOR needs wow players to survive. I think WoW players might actually be the worsed treat to SWTORS success.
1st of all, i do not play wow. I left this game once i maxed lvl 70 on BC and i did a lil bit of pvp and a raid. All i can say is that its way better for an mmorpg when you are just a soldier in the part of the stories on what happen in the world. You help the other epic heroes like thrall and your own faction. Also, i enderstand why this game have an high amount of subs. I dont think kotor will go that far. In starwars, it would be nothing special to be called an hero when millions of players already killed farth vader.
I dont play wow because just to say, i dont play mmorpg anymore. I dont like the rules they put on like you have to keep grinding everydays to keep up with your friends. Thats why im waiting for MO since you max skill after 2 weeks and you do what ever you want and learn new secondary skills. In wow, doing quest, raiding, i can admit that it was fun and each dungeons and raid had a story to follow.
To answer one of your question, i did play the old republic series and i have to admit that i liked the story a lot, but once i completed those game, i desinstalled both of them and go back playing starwars jedi knight academy every days because its none stop action and so fun. The problem is that for an mmorpg, all stories have an end. I was trying to say like what do you think kotor will do when many players will arrive to the end game? The way they progress, even if they got money, they wont make fast patch because they have to stay focus on too much stuff. Wow had less stuff so they could add new patch very fast.
Why do you need a real end for an mmorpg? Players will pay 15$ a month to stop playing with they are at the very end? What kind of mmorpg is that?
Gameplay part now, did you saw the trailer? Gameplay look boring after a while. I mean, like in the real old republic, the pvp look like a turn base. You go near your enemy and you start to auto strike and you them spam skill. The problem is that from what i saw, you dont move at all. Just like guild wars, you stand on front of your enemy and strike teal he die. In wow, if you are a skilled player, you can be unstopable because you always have to move on pvp like jumping, spamming skills at the right time rather then maching.
About the end and end game, Starwars will have an end game like any other mmorpg. You dont know what you are talking about to say that it will only be an end and nothing else for your character. 1st of all, in kotor, there will be pvp. End game players will abuse the pvp. Second, members will whine to get new patch so bioware will none stop working.
You dont know, but aoc did the same attempt on the story part. This game kind of failed. What will happen with kotor? The story might be better, but you have to know that its more about the gameplay, socialisation, progression.
I have been gaming for more years than I care to count. From pre-internet BBS days, MUDS, to the first MMO's. You want the old school definition of hardcore?; go play UO. Today's definition of hardcore is muddled with so many opinions. Some say its the individual that grinds to end game the fastest; old school sand boxers say its the games they play (were the term originated from); others claim its raiding that makes the hardcore. I suppose I could be considered a hardcore player on many facets but I hate fucking labels.
I am a gamer who chooses to play MY style of gaming when I decide. However, in the reference you care to give as your definition to hardcore then no, SW:TOR is most likely not for you. To be honest though, most games today are designed around the casual player. The older I get the less I like to grind. I used to love FFA PvP and full loot but I grow tired of that play style today. In the old days gamers had a better respect for one another in that type of atmosphere. Today clowns think that when they group up and spawn camp new players they are hardcore when in fact they are cement heads.
I really wish this genre would stop tossing about labels and creating game play around them. I am hoping that SW:TOR will give me that deep, gratifying story along with solid open world MMO play.
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
Whatever the case is Bioware is setting themself up for a mayor disaster if they ignore the Hardcore players. The reasons for this are simple
Hardcore players push games to the limit, they sniff out bugs, imbalances and they show the way for the masses, doing server firsts etc Also the Human psyche with its pack mentality needs people that spearhead, being the best at something. Look at sports if we all could do everything we would not have athletes breaking records and pushing the boundries. This is also true about science, where would we be today without those people??? And take the game Poker for example millions of people would not be playing it if it wernt for the Pro players that show that the game actually involves some skill. Good players are needed to make a game successful, if its just filled with average joes it will not be a thrilling experience.
Get over yourself.
Just because a person is unemployed, lives with mom, and can zerg a raid target doesn't make them a good player. Keep on thinking the "basement dwellers" are the ones who make the MMO world move. Its the ones with jobs that are paying the majority of subscriptions.
Why dident you read all my post. THIS IS NOT A LAME ATTEMPT TO SAY THAT HARDCORE IS BETTER THEN EVERYTHING ELLS. I even said that I think hardcore is playing around 60 hours a month. That is 15 hours a week. My point is BioWare is making a single player game with a subscription, they are not focusing on the people that will push the limits of their game. Why? because they are like Mythic before them who also tried to make game for the BIG audience. But like mythic they will soon understand that this audience dose not exist. MMO players are ALL SEMI Hardcore, yes even those that are working, like myself. And the dungeon dwellers! arnt the ones, just as you pointed out, that make the MMO world move.
You like Mythic, Funcom and Bioware think that people play less then they actually do. People blow thru content a lot faster then every developer to date have expected. So my personal view is that if BioWare keep focusing on the "casual" they will fail because their are no "Casuals". My girlfriend is a true Casual gamer she playes around 5-10 hours a month at best. But in all honesty their arnt many people willing to pay 14.99$ bucks a month to play 5-10 hours....
Single Player story Focus will kill this game, remember that I said this! when the whining starts on the offical forums after release....
I have to agree with the OP. I'm not sure with KOR what type of an audience it is looking for if not hardcore? Besides, I'm not overly impressed with the weaponry-looks oversized compared to the person holding it.
The faq is that at the end, if you touch an mmorpg and you think you are a casual gamer, accidentally, you will become an hardcore gamer and you will want more without stopping.
I know that because womans for exemple, most of them are casual gamers. Once they touch wow, most of them become fat and its not a joke. Or they simply gain some weights.
So if you stay focus on the casual play only, many players who switched from casual to harcore will go back to wow.
I consider myself as an hardcore gamer, but not an hardcore grinder. My hardcore for me is game with full loot open world pvp. Why is it hardcore? Because the number one rules in those games is win because if you lose, you lose some of your progression and you have to regen it backe very time you die. you think its a grind, but its not because if you join a clan, you regen very very fast with team work. Like i said, i dont play mmorpg at the moment, but im waiting for mortal online. You max your primary skills for around 2 weeks to learn the basic and the secondary skill may take 2 other weeks too. Thats mean 4 weeks and after that, you have to take care of yourself to not die and lose stuff.
Based on the various interviews I think it's safe to assume, that this game will not be geared towards traditional PvE grinders. My current understanding - which could easily be wrong - is that the true longevity of this game is based upon rerolling a new character once you have finished the story arc. For someone like me who actually like to work on (and stick by) the same character for several months or even years, this does so far not seem to be the corrent game. Oh, and I don't PvP.
I will probably love the experience for the single player aspect, but I won't be sticking around.
I sincerely hope Bioware has the balls to stick with their vision. It's long past due for some serious changes in this genre and I'd really love to see Bioware spearhead it. Even today's casual games usually end up giving hardcores and raiders the best of everything, despite the previous 50 levels of casual grinding...sigh. I don't mind that they are going to include PvP and Raiding and Crafting as long as my casual, story oriented character is just as competitive as the other play styles. Don't force us to raid or PvP in order get the highest development or loot progression. Every play style deserves access to end game. The point of these games is to PLAY them. Why should one group of gamers get special rewards or denial of rewards just because of the WAY they play?
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
I sincerely hope Bioware has the balls to stick with their vision. It's long past due for some serious changes in this genre and I'd really love to see Bioware spearhead it. Even today's casual games usually end up giving hardcores and raiders the best of everything, despite the previous 50 levels of casual grinding...sigh. I don't mind that they are going to include PvP and Raiding and Crafting as long as my casual, story oriented character is just as competitive as the other play styles. Don't force us to raid or PvP in order get the highest development or loot progression. Every play style deserves access to end game. The point of these games is to PLAY them. Why should one group of gamers get special rewards or denial of rewards just because of the WAY they play?
In the long run, yes I agree with you. A casual gamer who sticks by the same character will perhaps reach the max level in 1 years tiime. But this should not limit the more dedicated player from reaching the same goal within a few months. Otherwise it would be an artificial restriction on the dedicated player and he or she would most likely leave sooner rather than later.
All content is available to all players - even the most casual one. It just takes that much longer (Real Time) to archive.
Originally posted by Lundorff In the long run, yes I agree with you. A casual gamer who sticks by the same character will perhaps reach the max level in 1 years tiime. But this should not limit the more dedicated player from reaching the same goal within a few months. Otherwise it would be an artificial restriction on the dedicated player and he or she would most likely leave sooner rather than later. All content is available to all players - even the most casual one. It just takes that much longer (Real Time) to archive.
A year to reach max level?
I realise that there's not much information to go on as yet, but I think that's a tad excessive .. the only information that I've seen (correct me if more info has come out) is that each class's "story" offers "hundreds of hours of gameplay" and we're assuming at this point that "story" in TOR is synonymous with "levelling process".
"hundreds of hours" is somewhat ambiguous; it could mean 200 or 900 hours but given that the manpower that must be going into making 8 fully-voiced professionally written unique quest arcs, I would have to assume that the game will launch with the lower estimate, though I'm sure it will be expanded on in content patches/expansions and such.
Average Gamer: (Current figures show a gaming average of ~22 hours a week) or 9 weeks to cap.
Hardcore Gamer: (Speculated average of ~40 hours a week) or 5 weeks to cap.
Casual Gamer: (Speculated average of ~10 hours a week) or 20 weeks to cap.
Those aren't particularly long times for a gamer dedicated to one class. One of the things that I most want to see now is how TOR is going to handle the end-game that they have considering that the "story" is supposedly 100% soloable. Will we see a WoW-style bait-and-switch raid-or-die hardcore end-game?
Honestly, I think the absolute best news that I could hear right now is that there would be no "epix!" at all and that all the end-game content, be it PvP, PvE, Raiding, etc would be designed for fun rather than with the item-ladder progression in mind.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
While it might be good that there will be no "epix", it is not realistic. Majority of MMO players enjoy that aspect of the game. They love improving their characters skills and gear. Take that away and your game is unlikely to do very well.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."
Comments
Unbelievable... I left LOTRO for WoW partly because Moria introduced aliens (Foundations of Stone) and elemental mages (Runekeepers) and yet another ^*%*ing giant tortoise. They also screwed with the timeline by having the dwarves reclaim Moria way before they ought. Turbine mangled the lore and were actually trying to please people like *you*, so it is ironic to read such a post.
They were warned too about failing to please either type of player. Such a pity.
Anyhoo, regarding Star Wars... umm, it is a whole galaxy... you know, far far away. It is not one world, but many star systems. If your disatisfaction with LOTRO was the abundance of orcs and goblins, then I really don't see your point. The creative freedom Star Wars devs have is enormous, especially regarding what we fight. You'll undoubtedly see some orcs even.
In fact, give me just ONE example of something you would really (really!) want to see in a Star Wars game, but would be prevented by the lore? Magical wands? 
On topic... some very good posts in this thread. The comments from the developers about hardcore players means (I think) that the kind of player that looks to replace acheivement and purpose in life with a sense of acheivement and purpose from an online game will struggle to find this in TOR. Those who want a strong link between effort and reward (distinction from the rest of the player base) will be unhappy. Heck, a player who even thinks about playing a game as "effort" that needs to be rewarded might find something missing in TOR.
Well, we can hope.
Unbelievable... I left LOTRO for WoW partly because Moria introduced aliens (Foundations of Stone) and elemental mages (Runekeepers) and yet another ^*%*ing giant tortoise. They also screwed with the timeline by having the dwarves reclaim Moria way before they ought. Turbine mangled the lore and were actually trying to please people like *you*, so it is ironic to read such a post.
They were warned too about failing to please either type of player. Such a pity.
Anyhoo, regarding Star Wars... umm, it is a whole galaxy... you know, far far away. It is not one world, but many star systems. If your disatisfaction with LOTRO was the abundance of orcs and goblins, then I really don't see your point. The creative freedom Star Wars devs have is enormous, especially regarding what we fight. You'll undoubtedly see some orcs even.
In fact, give me just ONE example of something you would really (really!) want to see in a Star Wars game, but would be prevented by the lore? Magical wands? 
On topic... some very good posts in this thread. The comments from the developers about hardcore players means (I think) that the kind of player that looks to replace acheivement and purpose in life with a sense of acheivement and purpose from an online game will struggle to find this in TOR. Those who want a strong link between effort and reward (distinction from the rest of the player base) will be unhappy. Heck, a player who even thinks about playing a game as "effort" that needs to be rewarded might find something missing in TOR.
Well, we can hope.
Meh, sounds like another lotro fail story to me...LOL. No end-game? Geared towards casual gamers? Thats what Turbine tried and failed horribly at it. But then again this is a different company so who knows how they'll run it. I do wish star wars the best though, but i won't be fooled into playing it.
It all comes down to how well the company listens to the players. Because if they don't, the population will slowly decrease and it will become just another average mmorpg just as lotro is these days, with the avid fans sucked into the title keeping it running.
"I play Tera for the gameplay"
I believe there will be a game for the hardcore cuse if every class has it's own story and there are multiple paths to go down in one class then the hardcore will play every single class multiple times.
Also casual is someone who isn't really into games but buysthe odd one or two a year. Casual is someone who doesn't play an mmorpg every week. I mean I have mates who play 1 game a year and I'd call that casual. I have a friend who will play World of Warcraft a couple times a month when he gets the chance to and I think that is casual.
If you're dedicating hours each week to a game then I don't believe that is casual but more moderate gaming. The hardcore is someone who will devote each day to that game.
Your friend who plays WoW a couple times a month, if he maintains his sub regardless, is not considered casual by development companies - he's considered comatose. Which, and again I submit this IF he's maintaining his monthly subscription, is the best kind of gamer... doesn't complain, doesn't take hardware resources, keeps the money coming in. While your definition of hardcore is partially correct, if a bit vague, many people consider themselves casual who do devote a little time each day to play. Personally, I'm long since past that, as I haven't had any time to "devote" in over 3 years or so. But I can still log in from time to time, sometimes daily other times weekly, and never for very long, but even when I was able to play nightly week after week I was never a hardcore player. That definition is usually reserved for people who do everything short of game the system (though many do that as well) to succeed in the game, and is blessedly NOT the target audience for this game.
There's a sucker born every minute. - P.T. Barnum
No I think the hardcore player will stay in SWG and whine about PRE-NGE till they grow old. So if you want hardcore I think that is the place to be
I really wish that the guy who had made the hardcore quote had been a bit more specific about what he actually meant by it.
Hardcore has become one of those silly little labels that people toss around and like to adopt in order to glorify their playstyle and belittle others; it's a meaningless term purely because no two people can actually entirely agree on its meaning.
For me, I'm assuming that the guy was referring to those people who play 40+ hours a week (that's double the playtime of the "average" gamer) and rush through the levelling process to get to the "endgame" content, since TOR is so clearly putting so much effort into enriching the 1-to-whatever segment of the game.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
Yes you are right i droped the ball on this one. I did a second post were I said the Idea of this thread was not say that Hardcore is better then casual. But lets face facts 80% of the comunity are in my book hardcore!
Anyone spending 15h plus playing a game each week is hardcore in my book. 15h a week makes 60h a month, that is more then one working week spent playing a game. And I dont think developers at TOR understand that about 80% of the comunity spend so mush time playing. They will run out of content and people will start complaining.
If Im wrong and I hope that I am there will be no problems. But it will take a massive amount off effort and a really big budget to make a fully voiced over game last more then a Month for the avrage MMO gamer....
I never reroll for example just isent in my play style to have 5+ alts on the same server, so im not interested in playing all the Classes. Many others are like me, we hit the endgame and we stay there. I dont think the developers know what their audiance wants, and they will pay big time when it becomes clear they focused to mush on the ride and not so mush on the END...
Plus as I have said before Blizzard has 10m subs, Blizzard always focus on the Hardcore first. They have said it countless of times, "we look at our most dedicated players, and we make a game for them, the rest will follow", It has proven to bring them success again and again. Also EvE, that grows year by year focuses on the Most Hardcore players in their game, to ignore your truest fans is just STUPID. For BoiWare to say they wont focus on this means they do not intend to be a serious contender in the MMO market. They have thrown in the towel before it even began....
Im not trying to whine here, Im just pointing out Facts, those games that grow in this genre have a Hardcore mindset, those that fail, try in vain to appeal to a mythical ( it dosent exist) mass of people that they call Casuals. I would go so far as to say that there arn't many people playing MMOS that can be called casuals. Take WAR for example they made Public quest, fast travel to instanced pvp and Easy crafting all to cater to this mythical creature "the Casual". What happend? they FAILED..... and so will BioWare if they for one instant belive that there is such a thing called a Casual gamer.....
Yes you are right i droped the ball on this one. I did a second post were I said the Idea of this thread was not say that Hardcore is better then casual. But lets face facts 80% of the comunity are in my book hardcore!
Anyone spending 15h plus playing a game each week is hardcore in my book. 15h a week makes 60h a month, that is more then one working week spent playing a game. And I dont think developers at TOR understand that about 80% of the comunity spend so mush time playing. They will run out of content and people will start complaining.
If Im wrong and I hope that I am there will be no problems. But it will take a massive amount off effort and a really big budget to make a fully voiced over game last more then a Month for the avrage MMO gamer....
I never reroll for example just isent in my play style to have 5+ alts on the same server, so im not interested in playing all the Classes. Many others are like me, we hit the endgame and we stay there. I dont think the developers know what their audiance wants, and they will pay big time when it becomes clear they focused to mush on the ride and not so mush on the END...
Plus as I have said before Blizzard has 10m subs, Blizzard always focus on the Hardcore first. They have said it countless of times, "we look at our most dedicated players, and we make a game for them, the rest will follow", It has proven to bring them success again and again. Also EvE, that grows year by year focuses on the Most Hardcore players in their game, to ignore your truest fans is just STUPID. For BoiWare to say they wont focus on this means they do not intend to be a serious contender in the MMO market. They have thrown in the towel before it even began....
Im not trying to whine here, Im just pointing out Facts, those games that grow in this genre have a Hardcore mindset, those that fail, try in vain to appeal to a mythical ( it dosent exist) mass of people that they call Casuals. I would go so far as to say that there arn't many people playing MMOS that can be called casuals. Take WAR for example they made Public quest, fast travel to instanced pvp and Easy crafting all to cater to this mythical creature "the Casual". What happend? they FAILED..... and so will BioWare if they for one instant belive that there is such a thing called a Casual gamer.....
Ive never been that interested with alts really, unless Im considering a class change about 50% or less of the max lvl. Hasnt had any alts in the endgame lvl, ex 80 and 80 for.. err WoW (uhm which I dont play so give me a break) but then again Ive never played a storybased MMO before. I mean sure there were quests but.. well you dont exactly do them because they are fun to, you do it for the exp/rewards, this is what I hope TOR will be different.
I hope and expect a good storyline in same spirit as the KoToR games, with good dialogues, options and fun gameplay. There will be different followers/companions to choose from, each with their own story and interaction/like KotoR and so on, I expect KotoR like functions.
So this game might be short? Well first off all I think I red that the max lvl is 600 or something, itl take years to achieve and if you talk to the dev of TOR they tell you its not meant to either but back on the track. This game will not be just one game Ive come to understand but will be completly different wether you choose a jedi/sith, bounty hunter etc. That means that unlike every other mmo to date with a non existant boring storyline with very similar experiences, ex same npcs, mostly same quests etc TOR will offer a complete new experience, maybe itl be some or all of the former planets and places to be, but with a unique new story line, new npcs, different monologues and options it will be well worth playing with alts because in some remarks its a whole new game.
Maybe Im hoping for too much, it has happened before (AoC for one) but this is what they strive to be and if they keep those promises itl be a mmo in my taste and something definetily worth staying with for years to come.
Me, im not an harcore gamer, but im more of an hardcore gamer who play sandbox pvp games with full loot.
What i like about those games is that the grind is not hard to max. After a while, the whole game is about risk vs reward so advance your character and downgrade him happen everytime. So there is no reason to quit those kind of game because they dont have any endgame. Once you are in, you do anything you want. You dont need to be hardcore at grinding, but you need to be an hardcore killer to keep progressing. Hardcore crafter to help your team when they lose their items and an hardcore guild leader to have a zerg guild. In those sandbox game, you grind to regen only so you can be ready to fight again after death. Some sandbox games have a flagging system and stats loss so its even more intersting. The action never end. Also, the devs do not change the world, but only the players can change the feeling of the world with politic or anything else like castle war or build housing every where around the world. Devs can focus on balancing the game, add new feature, but they do not need to add new monsters every time or add thousand of new dungeons. Those sandbox games focus on players before anything else.
About starwars, it have none of the feature i mentioned. Its a them park game like wow. You lose nothing in that game. You only win price. In that case, they need to think about the harcore croud too because after 1 year, the players who buyed the game from the 1st day of release will start to whine in the forum like the OP mentioned and they might go back to wow again.
Me, i dont like them parks game because of the grind, but i will enjoy kotor just because of that. It had been made for the casual gamers who like the story and can go to the end game at a good amount of time and keep up with the newest update without playing 24-7 like a no life. By hardcore, i think you are aiming at no life players. At least, we will have a them park game good enough for us, players who play around 3 hours every days.
C:\Users\FF\Desktop\spin move.gif
50% of statistics are made up on the spot.
The OP tries to claim that hardcore gamers are a market Bioware should pursue. Furthermore that ALL hardcore gamers are min-maxers who only care about stat and grinding to the endgame to then raid until the next expansion.
It is a market but it is also a market that is saturated with every single MMO out there. Bioware does NOT do grinders, it is an RPG company. They tell and sell stories. If you min-maxed in Kotor or Baldur's gate, you were a fool. You should have played those games for the joy of playing a role and seeing the story develop.
The claim is that SWTOR will aim to recreate the feeling of playing an RPG but one where you are not always alone. How they will do this, I don't know. I don't even know wether they can pull it off. According to a recent update on SWTOR, smugglers can have side-kicks who crack jokes and such. So more then just a pet, this suggests that there should be a lot of times when your side-kick has a reason for saying something. After all, if three smugglers team up, you don't want all their side-kicks to constantly spout the same lines.
The idea that a MMORPG has to have an endgame shows exactly why a company would be wise to attract a different audience. How about this for an endgame. ROLL A NEW CHARACTER AND SEE A DIFFERENT SIDE OF THE STORY?
I would rather have a MMO with no endgame but a beautiful journey then a game with yet more endless raiding for a bit of loot to enable more raiding for a bit of loot.
There are a ton of games out that should satisfy the OP. Can at least one game be different? I think that bioware is smart for trying something different. They have proven themselves to be masters of the RPG, perhaps they are the company that can makes those three letters have some meaning in MMORPG.
Story is good, but too much story over anything for an mmorpg is the the best way to do it. Aoc tried and they failed at it. Wow put a good amount of story and you advance. For me, story are good for single player games. For an mmorpg, i will try to skip it because i like more to make my own story with my friends or other random players. For exemple, you got the rpers. Bioware for their mmorpg seem to miss the social part of the game. I heard a lot about solo stuff solo story and i even heard that a solo player can max the whole game. If i would want to play solo, why should i pay per month for that mmorpg?
Oblivion already proved that a full voiced game can put a huge limit. For an mmorpg, its more a waste of time, it add a limit to the gameplay experience and its a waste of time. Thi
s is one of the reason why it will take a lot of time to develope that game even if bioware got a lot of money team up with lucas art. What do you think will happen in the near future when the game come out? Many players will do anything that they could do and wait for the next patch or expension. Next patch for new zone, new boss, new dungeon and what ever will take a lot of time because of the waste of time on adding story, bullshit cinematics over cinematics, actors with new dialogues. While they focus on that, the wow devs will already get the time to add many stuff. What will happen?
Each starwars players will cancel their acc, go back to wow to grind again, kill new boss with their team of 40+,get new pvp gears, new pvp zone or BG's and wow would already get the time to copy an other game like they did with EQ2, but instead, they will add it in wow too. Starwars, so late they will be and already are, they will finally add a new patch, the wow players will re-active their accounts and once they done with the new stories, go back to wow again for the new patch just in time.
I heard that the starwars folks claim that they will be the wow killer. Hell no. They will stand in the wow shadow and get out for a small amount of time for each expension they put out.
SFC, what you failed on your belief is that since you know in starwars, there will be pvp, there will be grinders either. You have to max out to be a competitive pvper. If the starwars folks are not fast enough for both stories, actor dialogue, what ever what ever, no space yet and the pvp, they will be the last on the list just near AOC i think. Anyone want to prove are strong they are. So they will grind and grind and try to be the best of the server and try to prove something. Yelling that we killed darth vader is nothing new since all the players can kill him, but being the best pvp is a unique event. You are the only one. Who is the next champion? There is revenge. Ho, you just killed me. So fuck the story. I will grind and in my turn, i will kill you so you better not sleep to make be get pass you. As long there is pvp, there will be grind over stories.
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Get over yourself.
Just because a person is unemployed, lives with mom, and can zerg a raid target doesn't make them a good player. Keep on thinking the "basement dwellers" are the ones who make the MMO world move. Its the ones with jobs that are paying the majority of subscriptions.
Sorry RealBigDeal, you seem to believe that every MMORPG must appeal to the same broad group of players to succeed.
You even say the WoW has story.... that makes it very clear where you stand. Frankly, I don't think you are going to like SWTOR.
It is KOTOR online. Not Jedi Knight online (the old FPS series). Bioware is a STORY company. Do you play Mass Effect skipping the dialog to get to the end game quickly? Seems to me to be missing the point.
Bioware would be foolish to try to create a WoW-clone. It would throw away all their experience in telling a story for what? Yet another WoW-clone that just doesn't compete? We have had far to many of those.
No, if bioware is smart they try to create their own game, building on what they are best at.
What you don't seem to get is that in WoW you can never be hero, you can never become truly great. Why? Because it has no end. There is always another 10 levels in the next expansion that have to feature yet more power-ups.
It is the reason Dungeons and Dragons Online failed. MMORPG players are used to get rewarded with new levels and skills all the time but not actually get any more powerful. A prime example in this is Lord of the Rings online. In the very beginning you fight some mice and nearly die and at level 60 you fight some mice and nearly die.
This is NOT the case in single player RPG or for that matter D&D pen and paper games. A lvl 20 D&D character is a demi-god and has nothing to fear from lesser mortals. At the end of kotor you are a jedi-master or sith lord and nothing stands in your way.
But you can't continue with a high level in D&D. Expand it to level 30 and you would have to create stories around genesis, your character creating summoning new universes into existence rather then a spectral wolf. For the typical bioware RPG, the character has an END. Their is no endgame, just an end.
It would be VERY hard to do both an intresting story and not have an end to it. If they cater for your kind of gameplay, where the endgame is the only thing, then they would also have to give up on any character development, any plot progress. You might like to raid the same instance over and over for some loot, but that ain't story telling.
Do yourself a favor and PLAY a bioware game. It will hopefully become clear that there are other gamers out there, gamers who don't like WoW and who are numerous enough to be their own market.
An MMORPG can do two things, either steal WoW players OR create their own customers. We seen what happens with the games that tried to copy WoW. Meanwhile games like Eve have gone a completly different direction and prospored as a result.
Basically, you think SWTOR needs wow players to survive. I think WoW players might actually be the worsed treat to SWTORS success.
1st of all, i do not play wow. I left this game once i maxed lvl 70 on BC and i did a lil bit of pvp and a raid. All i can say is that its way better for an mmorpg when you are just a soldier in the part of the stories on what happen in the world. You help the other epic heroes like thrall and your own faction. Also, i enderstand why this game have an high amount of subs. I dont think kotor will go that far. In starwars, it would be nothing special to be called an hero when millions of players already killed farth vader.
I dont play wow because just to say, i dont play mmorpg anymore. I dont like the rules they put on like you have to keep grinding everydays to keep up with your friends. Thats why im waiting for MO since you max skill after 2 weeks and you do what ever you want and learn new secondary skills. In wow, doing quest, raiding, i can admit that it was fun and each dungeons and raid had a story to follow.
To answer one of your question, i did play the old republic series and i have to admit that i liked the story a lot, but once i completed those game, i desinstalled both of them and go back playing starwars jedi knight academy every days because its none stop action and so fun. The problem is that for an mmorpg, all stories have an end. I was trying to say like what do you think kotor will do when many players will arrive to the end game? The way they progress, even if they got money, they wont make fast patch because they have to stay focus on too much stuff. Wow had less stuff so they could add new patch very fast.
Why do you need a real end for an mmorpg? Players will pay 15$ a month to stop playing with they are at the very end? What kind of mmorpg is that?
Gameplay part now, did you saw the trailer? Gameplay look boring after a while. I mean, like in the real old republic, the pvp look like a turn base. You go near your enemy and you start to auto strike and you them spam skill. The problem is that from what i saw, you dont move at all. Just like guild wars, you stand on front of your enemy and strike teal he die. In wow, if you are a skilled player, you can be unstopable because you always have to move on pvp like jumping, spamming skills at the right time rather then maching.
About the end and end game, Starwars will have an end game like any other mmorpg. You dont know what you are talking about to say that it will only be an end and nothing else for your character. 1st of all, in kotor, there will be pvp. End game players will abuse the pvp. Second, members will whine to get new patch so bioware will none stop working.
You dont know, but aoc did the same attempt on the story part. This game kind of failed. What will happen with kotor? The story might be better, but you have to know that its more about the gameplay, socialisation, progression.
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I have been gaming for more years than I care to count. From pre-internet BBS days, MUDS, to the first MMO's. You want the old school definition of hardcore?; go play UO. Today's definition of hardcore is muddled with so many opinions. Some say its the individual that grinds to end game the fastest; old school sand boxers say its the games they play (were the term originated from); others claim its raiding that makes the hardcore. I suppose I could be considered a hardcore player on many facets but I hate fucking labels.
I am a gamer who chooses to play MY style of gaming when I decide. However, in the reference you care to give as your definition to hardcore then no, SW:TOR is most likely not for you. To be honest though, most games today are designed around the casual player. The older I get the less I like to grind. I used to love FFA PvP and full loot but I grow tired of that play style today. In the old days gamers had a better respect for one another in that type of atmosphere. Today clowns think that when they group up and spawn camp new players they are hardcore when in fact they are cement heads.
I really wish this genre would stop tossing about labels and creating game play around them. I am hoping that SW:TOR will give me that deep, gratifying story along with solid open world MMO play.
Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box. ~ Italian proverb
If they only care about the JOURNEY, woaaw.. then go do a singel player game of it.. geez..
Get over yourself.
Just because a person is unemployed, lives with mom, and can zerg a raid target doesn't make them a good player. Keep on thinking the "basement dwellers" are the ones who make the MMO world move. Its the ones with jobs that are paying the majority of subscriptions.
Why dident you read all my post. THIS IS NOT A LAME ATTEMPT TO SAY THAT HARDCORE IS BETTER THEN EVERYTHING ELLS. I even said that I think hardcore is playing around 60 hours a month. That is 15 hours a week. My point is BioWare is making a single player game with a subscription, they are not focusing on the people that will push the limits of their game. Why? because they are like Mythic before them who also tried to make game for the BIG audience. But like mythic they will soon understand that this audience dose not exist. MMO players are ALL SEMI Hardcore, yes even those that are working, like myself. And the dungeon dwellers! arnt the ones, just as you pointed out, that make the MMO world move.
You like Mythic, Funcom and Bioware think that people play less then they actually do. People blow thru content a lot faster then every developer to date have expected. So my personal view is that if BioWare keep focusing on the "casual" they will fail because their are no "Casuals". My girlfriend is a true Casual gamer she playes around 5-10 hours a month at best. But in all honesty their arnt many people willing to pay 14.99$ bucks a month to play 5-10 hours....
Single Player story Focus will kill this game, remember that I said this! when the whining starts on the offical forums after release....
I have to agree with the OP. I'm not sure with KOR what type of an audience it is looking for if not hardcore? Besides, I'm not overly impressed with the weaponry-looks oversized compared to the person holding it.
The faq is that at the end, if you touch an mmorpg and you think you are a casual gamer, accidentally, you will become an hardcore gamer and you will want more without stopping.
I know that because womans for exemple, most of them are casual gamers. Once they touch wow, most of them become fat and its not a joke. Or they simply gain some weights.
So if you stay focus on the casual play only, many players who switched from casual to harcore will go back to wow.
I consider myself as an hardcore gamer, but not an hardcore grinder. My hardcore for me is game with full loot open world pvp. Why is it hardcore? Because the number one rules in those games is win because if you lose, you lose some of your progression and you have to regen it backe very time you die. you think its a grind, but its not because if you join a clan, you regen very very fast with team work. Like i said, i dont play mmorpg at the moment, but im waiting for mortal online. You max your primary skills for around 2 weeks to learn the basic and the secondary skill may take 2 other weeks too. Thats mean 4 weeks and after that, you have to take care of yourself to not die and lose stuff.
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Based on the various interviews I think it's safe to assume, that this game will not be geared towards traditional PvE grinders. My current understanding - which could easily be wrong - is that the true longevity of this game is based upon rerolling a new character once you have finished the story arc. For someone like me who actually like to work on (and stick by) the same character for several months or even years, this does so far not seem to be the corrent game. Oh, and I don't PvP.
I will probably love the experience for the single player aspect, but I won't be sticking around.
I sincerely hope Bioware has the balls to stick with their vision. It's long past due for some serious changes in this genre and I'd really love to see Bioware spearhead it. Even today's casual games usually end up giving hardcores and raiders the best of everything, despite the previous 50 levels of casual grinding...sigh. I don't mind that they are going to include PvP and Raiding and Crafting as long as my casual, story oriented character is just as competitive as the other play styles. Don't force us to raid or PvP in order get the highest development or loot progression. Every play style deserves access to end game. The point of these games is to PLAY them. Why should one group of gamers get special rewards or denial of rewards just because of the WAY they play?
With PvE raiding, it has never been a question of being "good enough". I play games to have fun, not to be a simpering toady sitting through hour after hour of mind numbing boredom and fawning over a guild master in the hopes that he will condescend to reward me with shiny bits of loot. But in games where those people get the highest progression, anyone who doesn't do that will just be a moving target for them and I'll be damned if I'm going to pay money for the privilege. - Neanderthal
In the long run, yes I agree with you. A casual gamer who sticks by the same character will perhaps reach the max level in 1 years tiime. But this should not limit the more dedicated player from reaching the same goal within a few months. Otherwise it would be an artificial restriction on the dedicated player and he or she would most likely leave sooner rather than later.
All content is available to all players - even the most casual one. It just takes that much longer (Real Time) to archive.
A year to reach max level?
I realise that there's not much information to go on as yet, but I think that's a tad excessive .. the only information that I've seen (correct me if more info has come out) is that each class's "story" offers "hundreds of hours of gameplay" and we're assuming at this point that "story" in TOR is synonymous with "levelling process".
"hundreds of hours" is somewhat ambiguous; it could mean 200 or 900 hours but given that the manpower that must be going into making 8 fully-voiced professionally written unique quest arcs, I would have to assume that the game will launch with the lower estimate, though I'm sure it will be expanded on in content patches/expansions and such.
Average Gamer: (Current figures show a gaming average of ~22 hours a week) or 9 weeks to cap.
Hardcore Gamer: (Speculated average of ~40 hours a week) or 5 weeks to cap.
Casual Gamer: (Speculated average of ~10 hours a week) or 20 weeks to cap.
Those aren't particularly long times for a gamer dedicated to one class. One of the things that I most want to see now is how TOR is going to handle the end-game that they have considering that the "story" is supposedly 100% soloable. Will we see a WoW-style bait-and-switch raid-or-die hardcore end-game?
Honestly, I think the absolute best news that I could hear right now is that there would be no "epix!" at all and that all the end-game content, be it PvP, PvE, Raiding, etc would be designed for fun rather than with the item-ladder progression in mind.
Playing: EVE, Final Fantasy 13, Uncharted 2, Need for Speed: Shift
While it might be good that there will be no "epix", it is not realistic. Majority of MMO players enjoy that aspect of the game. They love improving their characters skills and gear. Take that away and your game is unlikely to do very well.
"The person who experiences greatness must have a feeling for the myth he is in."