Do you remember when you didn't care so much about "endgame"?

kamenwati · August 2009

You know, back when you actually enjoyed the journey of leveling itself, even when it meant camping the same spot in a dungeon for hours on end, because it was enough of a rush just to get to see new areas of the game and get new abilities?

Back when you slowly, over time, amassed wealth and possessions, and there were clear differences between the players who put in the effort and those who didn't?

When dying had penalties, and you quickly learned to be protective of your character and not send him charging foolheartedly into battle?

You know, when you actually felt like you had achieved something and felt an attachment to your avatar?

There was no prize waiting for you at the end. There were no freebies or pats on the back to remind you that You're Special.

Your prize was in fact the time that you had spent reaching the end and the friendships and memories you formed.

Sigh.

Get off my lawn.

Frostbite05 · August 2009

so anything pre everquest. Such a time scares me

Elethon · August 2009

I still enjoy leveling, in fact, even more so than back then. I guess I get bored with content pretty quickly spending hours and hours in one small area tires me out very quickly, but to each his own.

grandpagamer · August 2009

Leveling is the meat of the gamet to me. Ive never understood the mad dash to level cap, in fact once i reach level cap i either roll an alt or find a new game. The mentality of raid guilds is a bit over the top for me.

Vrazule · August 2009

Back in those days, I never got a character beyond the mid level range. The tedious grind was too much to bear. Hence my bevy of alts and when that got old it was time to move onto another game to do the same thing all over again.

Games I never even got close to max level:

EverQuest, Dark Age of Camelot, Anarchy Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Final Fantasy XI, EverQuest 2, Lineage 2, Horizons, Rubies of Eventide, RF Online, Age of Conan, Warhammer Online, Free Realms, Runes of Magic

Games I maxed or came close to maxing:

City of Heroes / City of Villains, World of Warcraft, Wizard 101

While I very much enjoy social gaming, the majority of the MMOs themselves suck ass.

Interesting to note that the games with the least amount of tedious grind, encouraged me to level the most out of my characters.

Vhaln · August 2009

I think the levelling game gets old after a while. Once you've hit the cap in a few MMOs, you realize the carrot at the end of the stick isn't really worth all that effort. So, along comes the endgame concept, just one way of trying to make the carrot worthwhile again.

Problem is, its not really working out all that well, either. Most devs barely seem to understand the concept. They seem to think it's like the volume knob that goes up to 11.

Draco91 · August 2009

I enjoy leveling. In fact, I rarely reach level cap, because I know I'll get bored to death running the same 10 end-game instances over and over again. Endgame is like 10% of what makes up most MMOs. The rest is the stuff that comes before it. Why the focus lately seems to be to make everything else go by faster to get to that last 10% and repeat the same content over and over again to get better gear so that you can do that same content a little faster or show off your e-peen is beyond me. And it would be nice to see real death penalties again.

cukimunga · August 2009

Ive Ive played FFXI of and on for a long time and I still don't have a character at max level. Im just not in a hurry to get to max because in all reality wouldn't it get really boring? I enjoy RPG's for stories and character development, if I can't level my character anymore then why play.

To tell you the truth ive never had a max level character in any MMORPG ive played. Ive been playing them since EQ.

JGMIII · August 2009

I've always enjoyed the journey more.

When I have the whole game world to look forward to.

I hate when I'm stuck in a handful of high level zones with only Raids to look forward to.

This is why I play Games with no endgame like Eve and Ryzom.

SwiftSaber · August 2009

haha yea, reminds me when i used to play the fourth coming over 10 years ago. I loved that game. its was pretty much endless grind, you could level on the same character for over a year and still not be maxed out lol. And camping bosses all with 1-10hours respawn timers to get a chance of dropping a rare item.And you had to watch your a** cause if something dropped and someone saw it, you were getting ganked on the spot. Game was kinda sandboxy too with a classless system and stuff..

i wish they'd make a game like that with up-to-date graphics..i doubt it would be that popular but it'd be really fun, even tho i wouldnt have as much time to play as i did back then haha.

kamenwati · August 2009

So let me follow up with a philosophical question.

You have two games:

1) It takes the average player 9 months to reach max level. Once there, there is about 3 months of content at the top.

2) It takes the average player 3 months to reach the max level. Once there, there is about 9 months of content at the top.

At the end of each of these, which is a more meaningful experience for you?

In 1), you have the feeling of having fought hard to improve your character's abilities and reach the summit.

In 2), you have the feeling of having fought hard to improve your character's equipment and differentiate yourself from others at the top of the molehill.

To me, the first option is more inherently self-motivated, while the second is more based on competing with other players.

Abrahmm · August 2009

I've never, ever enjoyed tedious grinds of inferiority in an attempt to get my character to a point where they can hold their own. The vulnerability of being completely worthless and defenseless during what could be summed up as nothing more than a timesink has always been the worst part of MMOs to me. Most of these MMOs don't even attempt to make "the journey" fun or interesting, it's just Kill X amount of Y quests over and over again and it sucks. It's one of the reasons why I liked Guild Wars so much, a day or two leveling, and then the rest of the time is spent at max level just playing the game. That is how it should be. There should be no end game or leveling game, there should just be a game that you play and enjoy.

kamenwati · August 2009

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I've never, ever enjoyed tedious grinds of inferiority in an attempt to get my character to a point where they can hold their own. The vulnerability of being completely worthless and defenseless during what could be summed up as nothing more than a timesink has always been the worst part of MMOs to me. It's one of the reasons why I liked Guild Wars so much, a day or two leveling, and then the rest of the time is spent at max level just playing the game. That is how it should be. There should be no end game or leveling game, there should just be a game that you play and enjoy.

Couldn't one argue that this feeling of inferiority is entirely self-imposed? Why not take the same "play and enjoy" attitude while you're still in the leveling phase and not worry so much about not being maxed out?

Not flaming, just wondering.

Draco91 · August 2009

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I've never, ever enjoyed tedious grinds of inferiority in an attempt to get my character to a point where they can hold their own. The vulnerability of being completely worthless and defenseless during what could be summed up as nothing more than a timesink has always been the worst part of MMOs to me. Most of these MMOs don't even attempt to make "the journey" fun or interesting, it's just Kill X amount of Y quests over and over again and it sucks. It's one of the reasons why I liked Guild Wars so much, a day or two leveling, and then the rest of the time is spent at max level just playing the game. That is how it should be. There should be no end game or leveling game, there should just be a game that you play and enjoy.

I agree. What we have mostly right now is an overly repetitive and meaningless grind to get to an endgame, which is just a different flavor of overly repetitive and meaningless grind. Guild Wars did a lot of things right in that respect. But I guess I can deal with the level grind much better than the end-game grind since the level grind takes place in a MUCH bigger variety of settings. I'm not running the same dank and dark dungeons over and over again. I'm traveling to beaches, deserts, and jungles. I'm traveling to the energetic and the colorful, the peaceful and the tranquil, the mysterious and the risky, the beautiful and the gloomy. And I'm doing it with friends that are traveling and advancing with me. End-game might be doable with friends, but it's also the same 10 places doing the same "kill x to get to the boss for the fat loot" over and over again. Even level grind quests have more variety than that.

Abrahmm · August 2009

Originally posted by kamenwati

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I've never, ever enjoyed tedious grinds of inferiority in an attempt to get my character to a point where they can hold their own. The vulnerability of being completely worthless and defenseless during what could be summed up as nothing more than a timesink has always been the worst part of MMOs to me. It's one of the reasons why I liked Guild Wars so much, a day or two leveling, and then the rest of the time is spent at max level just playing the game. That is how it should be. There should be no end game or leveling game, there should just be a game that you play and enjoy.

Couldn't one argue that this feeling of inferiority is entirely self-imposed? Why not take the same "play and enjoy" attitude while you're still in the leveling phase and not worry so much about not being maxed out?

Not flaming, just wondering.

Not self imposed at all. I felt this feeling especially in WoW. I played on a PvP server, and during my leveling times I was completely worthless and defenseless against anyone more than a few levels above me. If some higher/max level player decided they were going to go out killing low level players, I was completely at their mercy without a chance in the world to fight back. So, I had to spend an unnecessary amount of time doing the exact same repetitive and boring tasks that weren't fun at all over and over again while completely vulnerable to anyone higher level that happens to find me all so that I could eventually have a character that can hold their own and I could eventually play the same game everyone else was. It was a pointless waste of my time.

Abrahmm · August 2009

Originally posted by Draco91

Originally posted by Abrahmm

I've never, ever enjoyed tedious grinds of inferiority in an attempt to get my character to a point where they can hold their own. The vulnerability of being completely worthless and defenseless during what could be summed up as nothing more than a timesink has always been the worst part of MMOs to me. Most of these MMOs don't even attempt to make "the journey" fun or interesting, it's just Kill X amount of Y quests over and over again and it sucks. It's one of the reasons why I liked Guild Wars so much, a day or two leveling, and then the rest of the time is spent at max level just playing the game. That is how it should be. There should be no end game or leveling game, there should just be a game that you play and enjoy.

I agree. What we have mostly right now is an overly repetitive and meaningless grind to get to an endgame, which is just a different flavor of overly repetitive and meaningless grind. Guild Wars did a lot of things right in that respect. But I guess I can deal with the level grind much better than the end-game grind since the level grind takes place in a MUCH bigger variety of settings. I'm not running the same dank and dark dungeons over and over again. I'm traveling to beaches, deserts, and jungles. I'm traveling to the energetic and the colorful, the peaceful and the tranquil, the mysterious and the risky, the beautiful and the gloomy. And I'm doing it with friends that are traveling and advancing with me. End-game might be doable with friends, but it's also the same 10 places doing the same "kill x to get to the boss for the fat loot" over and over again. Even level grind quests have more variety than that.

I agree with that sentiment. I guess my biggest issue is the huge discrepancy between a max level character and a new character in most level based games. Make the character continually progress throughout the adventure, but make the progression small enough so that the difference between young and old is minimal and can be overcome. Or, do as Guild Wars does, and make leveling to max quick, and the rest of the game exploring the different areas like you described. Eliminate the grinds completely, and just make fun games.

kamenwati · August 2009

You have to realize though that this is less about game mechanics and more about the general attitudes of players. The overly competitive nature of MMO's these days lends itself to people feeling like they have to be the highest level and have the best gear ASAP.

I'm merely remininscing on the days when the general attitude was to stop and smell the roses and not be in such a rush to see the view from the top. Now it's all about efficiency, min/max-ing, reading everyone else's guides on the "best way" to do everything so that you can reach the end, get the best items, and have your character look and operate like every other.

We can blame developers for creating "meaningless" content, but does it really matter when the general attitude is to open up a guide and go from point A to point B like a good little lab rat anyway?

rozenblade1 · August 2009

Okay, I absolutely love FFXI...actually, my favorite part was leveling and finding parties to level with...it's a long process, but, in that game, it was worth it...

Thinking back, it makes me want to sub again.....*sighs*

...sometimes getting all nostalgic makes me depressed...nothing is the same anymore.....I can't get the connection with the games or with the other players aas I did with FFXI......hmph...

Abrahmm · August 2009

Originally posted by kamenwati

You have to realize though that this is less about game mechanics and more about the general attitudes of players. The overly competitive nature of MMO's these days lends itself to people feeling like they have to be the highest level and have the best gear ASAP.
I'm merely remininscing on the days when the general attitude was to stop and smell the roses and not be in such a rush to see the view from the top. Now it's all about efficiency, min/max-ing, reading everyone else's guides on the "best way" to do everything so that you can reach the end, get the best items, and have your character look and operate like every other.
We can blame developers for creating "meaningless" content, but does it really matter when the general attitude is to open up a guide and go from point A to point B like a good little lab rat anyway?

Again, I blame developers for facilitating such attitudes. The discrepancy between low and high level characters opens the door for people to feel the same way I do when I'm low level and push them to level as fast as possible to feel valid in the game world. Again I point out Guild Wars. You level to max and get max gear very easily and very quickly. The rest of the time you are just playing the game, stopping to smell the roses, doing things because you enjoy them, not because you feel like you have to in order to enjoy the game at a later point.

kamenwati · August 2009

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by kamenwati

You have to realize though that this is less about game mechanics and more about the general attitudes of players. The overly competitive nature of MMO's these days lends itself to people feeling like they have to be the highest level and have the best gear ASAP.
I'm merely remininscing on the days when the general attitude was to stop and smell the roses and not be in such a rush to see the view from the top. Now it's all about efficiency, min/max-ing, reading everyone else's guides on the "best way" to do everything so that you can reach the end, get the best items, and have your character look and operate like every other.
We can blame developers for creating "meaningless" content, but does it really matter when the general attitude is to open up a guide and go from point A to point B like a good little lab rat anyway?

Again, I blame developers for facilitating such attitudes. The discrepancy between low and high level characters opens the door for people to feel the same way I do when I'm low level and push them to level as fast as possible to feel valid in the game world. Again I point out Guild Wars. You level to max and get max gear very easily and very quickly. The rest of the time you are just playing the game, stopping to smell the roses, doing things because you enjoy them, not because you feel like you have to in order to enjoy the game at a later point.

Philosophically, it sounds to me like the difference between someone who's waited until they've retired to see the world and someone who maybe chose a more difficult journey in life but experienced more along the way. Nothing is stopping you from enjoying a game before you've reached "retirement".

Realistically, we just come from different MMO backgrounds.

Draco91 · August 2009

Originally posted by kamenwati

So let me follow up with a philosophical question.
You have two games:
1) It takes the average player 9 months to reach max level. Once there, there is about 3 months of content at the top.
2) It takes the average player 3 months to reach the max level. Once there, there is about 9 months of content at the top.
At the end of each of these, which is a more meaningful experience for you?
In 1), you have the feeling of having fought hard to improve your character's abilities and reach the summit.
In 2), you have the feeling of having fought hard to improve your character's equipment and differentiate yourself from others at the top of the molehill.
To me, the first option is more inherently self-motivated, while the second is more based on competing with other players.

It depends on what the end-game content is. If it's 9 months of running the same dungeons over and over because the drop you want is so rare, then I would enjoy option 1 better. If there is a meaningful story and a variety of places to explore, then I don't think it matters whether I'm at end-game or mid-game. Although personally, I could play a classic EQ game where there isn't much story but there is a lot of exploration to be done, and a lot of great background lore, and be perfectly happy. It isn't about a number showing up next to your name. It's about what you are doing.

cukimunga · August 2009

Originally posted by rozenblade1

Okay, I absolutely love FFXI...actually, my favorite part was leveling and finding parties to level with...it's a long process, but, in that game, it was worth it...
Thinking back, it makes me want to sub again.....*sighs*
...sometimes getting all nostalgic makes me depressed...nothing is the same anymore.....I can't get the connection with the games or with the other players aas I did with FFXI......hmph...

Yeah I know how you feel, Ive quit FFXI so many times to try to find something better and nothing has come close. I guess thats why I just subbed again lol. Well I guess ill see how Fallen Earth is if it dont satisfy my grouping addiction I'll just have to keep playing FFXI until FFXIV comes out.

Draco91 · August 2009

Originally posted by kamenwati

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by kamenwati

You have to realize though that this is less about game mechanics and more about the general attitudes of players. The overly competitive nature of MMO's these days lends itself to people feeling like they have to be the highest level and have the best gear ASAP.
I'm merely remininscing on the days when the general attitude was to stop and smell the roses and not be in such a rush to see the view from the top. Now it's all about efficiency, min/max-ing, reading everyone else's guides on the "best way" to do everything so that you can reach the end, get the best items, and have your character look and operate like every other.
We can blame developers for creating "meaningless" content, but does it really matter when the general attitude is to open up a guide and go from point A to point B like a good little lab rat anyway?

Again, I blame developers for facilitating such attitudes. The discrepancy between low and high level characters opens the door for people to feel the same way I do when I'm low level and push them to level as fast as possible to feel valid in the game world. Again I point out Guild Wars. You level to max and get max gear very easily and very quickly. The rest of the time you are just playing the game, stopping to smell the roses, doing things because you enjoy them, not because you feel like you have to in order to enjoy the game at a later point.

Philosophically, it sounds to me like the difference between someone who's waited until they've retired to see the world and someone who maybe chose a more difficult journey in life but experienced more along the way. Nothing is stopping you from enjoying a game before you've reached "retirement".

Realistically, we just come from different MMO backgrounds.

There's no power gap between a retiree and someone who is working while pursuing other interests. There is a power gap between a level 30 and a level 60. The sooner you get to max, the sooner the power gap is nullified. This power gap, it seems, is where Abrahmm's discontent lies. It isn't a matter of reaching the end, so much as breaking the power barrier between players. I tend to agree on some aspects here... but I do like the feeling of improving significantly over time. Guild Wars allows significant improvement over a short time, and significant amounts of meaningful content after the end of that improvement, which allows for both that feeling of improvement, and the closing of the power barrier. I don't play Guild Wars much anymore, but they did that part of things right (which is why I keep using it as an example now).

kamenwati · August 2009

Originally posted by Draco91
There's no power gap between a retiree and someone who is working while pursuing other interests. There is a power gap between a level 30 and a level 60. The sooner you get to max, the sooner the power gap is nullified. This power gap, it seems, is where Abrahmm's discontent lies. It isn't a matter of reaching the end, so much as breaking the power barrier between players.

Why is it a problem that there is a power gap? Shouldn't there be some sort of reward for effort? The only time that even seems relevant is in the case of unrestricted PvP where higher level players can go gank lowbies.

Nizur · August 2009

Originally posted by JGMIII
I've always enjoyed the journey more.
When I have the whole game world to look forward to.
I hate when I'm stuck in a handful of high level zones with only Raids to look forward to.
This is why I play Games with no endgame like Eve and Ryzom.

I hear ya. I got sucked into the "mad dash" to level cap in WoW. After a while I got sick of raiding constantly and started looking elsewhere. I learned to just slow down and enjoy the journey in LotRO, but even at my slow pace I still hit end-game there and got bored of raiding and the MoM grind.

Now I'm taking my time and enjoying Ryzom and am really looking forward to other sandbox MMOs like Earthrise and MO.

Abrahmm · August 2009

Originally posted by Draco91

Originally posted by kamenwati

Originally posted by Abrahmm

Originally posted by kamenwati

You have to realize though that this is less about game mechanics and more about the general attitudes of players. The overly competitive nature of MMO's these days lends itself to people feeling like they have to be the highest level and have the best gear ASAP.
I'm merely remininscing on the days when the general attitude was to stop and smell the roses and not be in such a rush to see the view from the top. Now it's all about efficiency, min/max-ing, reading everyone else's guides on the "best way" to do everything so that you can reach the end, get the best items, and have your character look and operate like every other.
We can blame developers for creating "meaningless" content, but does it really matter when the general attitude is to open up a guide and go from point A to point B like a good little lab rat anyway?

Again, I blame developers for facilitating such attitudes. The discrepancy between low and high level characters opens the door for people to feel the same way I do when I'm low level and push them to level as fast as possible to feel valid in the game world. Again I point out Guild Wars. You level to max and get max gear very easily and very quickly. The rest of the time you are just playing the game, stopping to smell the roses, doing things because you enjoy them, not because you feel like you have to in order to enjoy the game at a later point.

Philosophically, it sounds to me like the difference between someone who's waited until they've retired to see the world and someone who maybe chose a more difficult journey in life but experienced more along the way. Nothing is stopping you from enjoying a game before you've reached "retirement".

Realistically, we just come from different MMO backgrounds.

There's no power gap between a retiree and someone who is working while pursuing other interests. There is a power gap between a level 30 and a level 60. The sooner you get to max, the sooner the power gap is nullified. This power gap, it seems, is where Abrahmm's discontent lies. It isn't a matter of reaching the end, so much as breaking the power barrier between players. I tend to agree on some aspects here... but I do like the feeling of improving significantly over time. Guild Wars allows significant improvement over a short time, and significant amounts of meaningful content after the end of that improvement, which allows for both that feeling of improvement, and the closing of the power barrier. I don't play Guild Wars much anymore, but they did that part of things right (which is why I keep using it as an example now).

Pretty much exactly how I feel. In Guild Wars, you can continually make your character better by acquiring new skills to use, but once you are level 20 you are capable of holding your own in PvP. This gives you the ability to nullify the power gap quickly yet still continually progress and make your character better.

My main gripe isn't that there is a power gap, but that it is so big and such a decisive factor. A level 10 has absolutely no chance against a level 80, or 70, or even a 25. They need to give players the ability to continually progress and make their characters better, but in small enough increments to where the power gap is tiny and a skilled new player has a chance against an older player.

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Do you remember when you didn't care so much about "endgame"?

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Do you remember when you didn't care so much about "endgame"?

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